Dual nationality travel, and some confusing advice from Thai immigration

[OxfordWill]

Hello,

If you have a Thai passport (and thai ID / citizenship) and a European Passport and you live in Thailand, if you want to go to a European country, my understanding was that:

1) You use your Thai passport to leave Thailand,

2) You use your EU passport to enter the EU

You don't need any special permission to leave Thailand if you have a Thai passport, thai citizenship and ID.

However, someone in this exact situation has just been told that in order to visit Norway, if they plans to use their EU passport (it's swiss) then she must get a visa from the country she is going to in her Thai passport, in order to be allowed to leave Thailand (or perhaps, in order to be allowed to RETURN to Thailand on her Thai passport) suggesting that they will have a problem without a visa, even though they wouldnt be using the Thai passport for the travel except leaving/re-entering Thailand.

Could someone who knows the score please help and confirm what they mean- is Immigration trying to pull a fast one? They said that without this, they will demand that tax is paid retrospectively as Thai people must choose one nationality and if they want to use both, they have to pay some sort of "tax" ?

[theoldgit]

Who has given your friend this information? there is, as far as I'm aware, no such requirement.

Numerous people on this forum do exactly as you describe, apparently without any problem.

The only people who would be interested is the airline, and then for their own protection.

[OxfordWill]

Thai immigration, she went in to ask them as she has not traveled since she was very young and wanted to be sure to avoid issues. Like you I know people who do this without issue and was shocked that she is currently waiting on a Norwegian visa for her thai passport, that she will not even be using when she gets to Norway..

They said they will demand back payments in tax from her as a person living with dual nationality if she does it without a norway visa..

Edited December 19, 2013 by OxfordWill

[ubonjoe]

There is no such requirement.

[OxfordWill]

Do either of you know what they might be getting at with this mention of tax? I can't get my head around what they could mean

[samran]

all she has to do is make sure the airline check in sees BOTH passports so they know that person has the right of entry into the EU with an EU passport.

They'll issue a boarding pass, and then that is that.

Given there are electronic gates at Suvanabhumi these days, she doesn't even have to say boo to an imigration offical, she just scans herself through, about as complicated as getting thought he turnstyles on the skytrain. Even if for some reason the gates weren't working, the immigration offical doesn't care. If they airline is happy for you to board, immigration are happy to stamp you out.

At worst, I get some old crone in the queue behind me telling me I should be in the foreigners line, cause I don't look Thai, as happened, last week.I told her to sod off and that was that.

I do the ole passport swap good half dozen times per year, at a minimum. Never been a problem since 1992 when I first started doing it.

[samran]

oh, and Thai people don't have to choose a nationality. Hasn't been the case since 1992.

[OxfordWill]

Thank you... It's useful and I saw your other posts on the topic recently which helped confirm the point.

Much appreciated to all three of you.

However, I do not know what to tell her about this tax issue. Im assuming its some sort of nonsense..!

[soihok]

Hi.

Both my daughers hold Thai and British passports, both live on and off in Thailand.

When they travel out of Thailand to Europe, the air line tickets are purchased using the detail of the British passport as no visa is required to enter the EU. After checking in at the airline counter with the British passport, proceed to Thai immigration and produce the Thai passport (with TM6) and show boarding pass along with British passport (if it is asked for).

Never a problem.

[soihok]

Never paid any tax upon leaving (apart from the old airport tax thing that has been integrated into the ticket purchase).

Or a tax for the girls to hold dual nationality.

I wish I had dual nationality, guess I will have to be content with just being British

Edited December 19, 2013 by soihok

[OxfordWill]

Tax could means:

- departure (I think we know this wont happen)

- income (how would the revenue dept know what passport she used to enter and leave EU?)

- ??? no other kind of tax remotely applies

[ubonjoe]

Do either of you know what they might be getting at with this mention of tax? I can't get my head around what they could mean

I have no idea. It sounds like some immigration officer just talking nonsense.

[ChanaRaphael]

I am an EU citizen, hold an EU passport however my son is half Thai and we are planning on going to Europe next year. We want to get him a passport (preferrably a dual EU/Thai) but would like to know whats possible and whats not and can you have both a Thai & EU dual passport or not? I can't seem to find a clear cut answer?

[theoldgit]

@ChanaRaphael, If you are talking about a physical dual passport then, no that's not what he needs.

If he's entitled to a passport from another State, that allows dual nationality, then he applies to them for a passport from them.

He then goes through the procedure described earlier, and uses the passport in tandem with his Thai passport .

[ubonjoe]

I am an EU citizen, hold an EU passport however my son is half Thai and we are planning on going to Europe next year. We want to get him a passport (preferrably a dual EU/Thai) but would like to know whats possible and whats not and can you have both a Thai & EU dual passport or not? I can't seem to find a clear cut answer?

For the Thai side it is not a problem.

But there is a possibility there could be a problem with your home country. Some EU countries do not allow dual nationality.

[samran]

Tax could means:

- departure (I think we know this wont happen)

- income (how would the revenue dept know what passport she used to enter and leave EU?)

- ??? no other kind of tax remotely applies

No taxes, but once upon a time foreigners leaving Thailand needed a tax clearance. But that requirement is ancient history.

[7by7]

I am an EU citizen, hold an EU passport however my son is half Thai and we are planning on going to Europe next year. We want to get him a passport (preferrably a dual EU/Thai) but would like to know whats possible and whats not and can you have both a Thai & EU dual passport or not? I can't seem to find a clear cut answer?

For the Thai side it is not a problem.

But there is a possibility there could be a problem with your home country. Some EU countries do not allow dual nationality.

Indeed, nationality law is down to individual member states of the EU, not the EU itself. So it depends on your actual nationality.

I understand that if naturalised as German then you have to renounce your other nationality; unless the laws of that country don't allow you to do so. But if one of your parents is German and the other not then you can have dual nationality.

For example, my daughter's ex boyfriend's father is Sri Lankan and his mother German, and he has both a Sri Lankan and a German passport.

Which is a long winded way of saying that your son will probably be allowed by your country to have dual nationality; but obviously you should check with your embassy or the nationality department of your home country.

Certainly, as already said, there is no problem as far as the Thai government are concerned.

[krisb]

It's her rite to come and go freely as a holder of those 2 passports. It's a blessed situation to be in. Sometimes I wonder about the good folk at immigration. They seem to be not all on the same page at times.

[Waterloo]

My children have recently returned from a 10 week visit with Yai travelling on there Thai & UK passports, I can confirm no Taxes paid.

Some one in immigration is confused or new.

[Baerboxer]

Norway and Switzerland are not member countries of the EU. They are however Schengen member countries.

This may have confused immigration.

[7by7]

Why? It doesn't matter what country the other one is; it doesn't have to be an EU country.

Samran is a dual Thai/Australian, and last time I checked Australia isn't in the EU either!

[Maestro]

Norway and Switzerland are not member countries of the EU. They are however Schengen member countries.

This may have confused immigration.

I have a feeling that the immigration officer was not confused; he simply did no know, nor was it his job to know.

For the use of passports by a dual Thai/non-Thai national it does indeed not matter what his non-Thai nationality is, as 7by7 has pointed out. To eliminate possible misconceptions by readers, it is however useful to correct some erroneous statements made in this thread.

European Passport

There is no European passport, but there are passports issued by countries in Europe.

EU passport

There is no EU passport, but there are passports issued by the member states of the EU.

EU passport (it's swiss)

Switzerland is not a member state of the EU (aside from the fact that there is no EU passport, see above)

EU citizen

A page on the website of the European Commission talks about EU citizenship, but in this context citizenship is not the same as nationality.

[OxfordWill]

An update- the lady in question got to the immigration officer, who did have a problem with the dual passport issue. Although, I had suggested this might happen as they like to delay pretty girls. Anyway, she was told she should choose between one or the other. They wasted her time for a good 30 mins before she had to get "uncle" on the phone, or at least threaten to, and they eventually relented.

The usual BS, but there we have the facts as they happened. She was eventually let on without further issue.

Another good friend of mine, left the country with his Thai wife and child. He is American. He joined the foreigner lanes, and the wife/child went to Thai. He recommends this is a mistake. Anyway- interestingly- the official was hesitant to let the wife and child through until he could ensure the husband was OK with it. Nice to hear it works both ways, I thought.

[Jay Sata]

Just to correct an earlier suggestion Germany usually requires naturalised citizens renounce their original nationality but Thailand is on a list of countries which are excepted.

I think there has been some confusion with the OP's advice. The airline needs to see your destination passport or visa while Thai immigration stamp the Thai national out and insert the departure card in the passport. Destination,eg UK,passport is then used to board aircraft.

The airline are concerned you have a visa or passport for your destination not your nationality.

There is no need to show the Thai immigration officer your foreign passport or it will lead to the problems encountered above. I'm not sure all Thai immigration officers are familiar with the legality of a Thai holding foreign citizenship.

Edited January 21, 2014 by Jay Sata

[samran]

An update- the lady in question got to the immigration officer, who did have a problem with the dual passport issue. Although, I had suggested this might happen as they like to delay pretty girls. Anyway, she was told she should choose between one or the other. They wasted her time for a good 30 mins before she had to get "uncle" on the phone, or at least threaten to, and they eventually relented.

The usual BS, but there we have the facts as they happened. She was eventually let on without further issue.

Another good friend of mine, left the country with his Thai wife and child. He is American. He joined the foreigner lanes, and the wife/child went to Thai. He recommends this is a mistake. Anyway- interestingly- the official was hesitant to let the wife and child through until he could ensure the husband was OK with it. Nice to hear it works both ways, I thought.

did she show both passports to immigtration (and why on earth would she do that?)

Why didn't she just use the electronic gates. No one checks you there...

[Jay Sata]

Yes it appears she did show both passports which is what caused the problem.

[Arkady]

Truth is the Nationality Act is ambiguous and open to interpretation in several areas relating to dual nationality. Nevertheless, there is nothing in the Act that could be interpreted as prohibiting dual nationality to those who are Thai through birth to a Thai parent and have another nationality because the other parent is a foreigner. Similarly there is no hint of a prohibition on Thais who have another nationality through birth overseas to two Thai parents, e.g. Abhisit and Korn.

Where it is ambiguous or unclear is in the following cases:

- A Thai who becomes naturalised as an alien (but no known cases of action ever being taken against in the life of the current 1965 Nationality Act).

- Some one who is Thai as a result of birth in Thailand to two alien parents - since 1971 both parents must have PR for their children to be Thai. (There are many known cases of revocation of Thai nationality from those in this category.)

- Some one who is naturalised as a Thai (also no known cases of revocation of Thai nationality.)

As you can see the only category of Thai they have ever really had it in for over dual nationality are people who became Thai as a result of birth in Thailand to two alien parents. There were obviously a lot of these created before 1971 and they were mainly children of Chinese immigrants that the Thai authorities obviously felt had a rather tenuous claim to Thai nationality. Of course, since the law changed and PR has become incredibly difficult to obtain, it is now an extremely rare occurrence for new borns to obtain Thai nationality in this way.

Notwithstanding all of the above there seems to be a sense in the Interior Ministry and the Immigration Bureau that dual nationality is somehow a a dangerous threat to national security and that they would like to discourage it, even if the law doesn't strictly prohibit it. It is best not to flaunt dual nationality in front of any of these people, unless you relish an argument and don't mind being inconvenienced at the airport. As Samran says the electronic gates now facilitate avoiding these confrontations. Hopefully Immigration won't ever manage to link themselves into airline computers which could result in the electronic gates only allowing through the passports that have been checked in with airlines.

If anyone born to a Thai parent has this sort of problem at Immigration, they could ask the officer to cite the section of the Nationality Act they are referring to. They will have a problem doing this. You could carry the Act around in your iPad or phone for easy reference. For dual citizens who are given a hard time trying to enter Thailand on a clean Thai passport, issued at a Thai embassy overseas, they should cite the constitution which makes it illegal to deny entry to the Kingdom to any Thai.

[Waterloo]

An update- the lady in question got to the immigration officer, who did have a problem with the dual passport issue. Although, I had suggested this might happen as they like to delay pretty girls. Anyway, she was told she should choose between one or the other. They wasted her time for a good 30 mins before she had to get "uncle" on the phone, or at least threaten to, and they eventually relented.

The usual BS, but there we have the facts as they happened. She was eventually let on without further issue.

Another good friend of mine, left the country with his Thai wife and child. He is American. He joined the foreigner lanes, and the wife/child went to Thai. He recommends this is a mistake. Anyway- interestingly- the official was hesitant to let the wife and child through until he could ensure the husband was OK with it. Nice to hear it works both ways, I thought.

did she show both passports to immigtration (and why on earth would she do that?)

Why didn't she just use the electronic gates. No one checks you there...

Hi had a family holiday in Thailand late last year and as always queued in the Thai que as the wife is a Thai national & both our children hold dual nationality.

First time I have noticed the electronic gates, presumably as I hold a UK passport it was not an option for us to use them & we need to continue using the manual Thai gate for the reason stated in OxfordWill's post.

Out of curiosity how long have the electronic gates been operating?

[Jay Sata]

I always go through the Thai line with my wife. On arrival it can save you a considerable amount of time.

Arkady makes a valid point regarding dual nationality.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Jay Sata

[Arkady]

An update- the lady in question got to the immigration officer, who did have a problem with the dual passport issue. Although, I had suggested this might happen as they like to delay pretty girls. Anyway, she was told she should choose between one or the other. They wasted her time for a good 30 mins before she had to get "uncle" on the phone, or at least threaten to, and they eventually relented.

The usual BS, but there we have the facts as they happened. She was eventually let on without further issue.

Another good friend of mine, left the country with his Thai wife and child. He is American. He joined the foreigner lanes, and the wife/child went to Thai. He recommends this is a mistake. Anyway- interestingly- the official was hesitant to let the wife and child through until he could ensure the husband was OK with it. Nice to hear it works both ways, I thought.

did she show both passports to immigtration (and why on earth would she do that?)

Why didn't she just use the electronic gates. No one checks you there...

Hi had a family holiday in Thailand late last year and as always queued in the Thai que as the wife is a Thai national & both our children hold dual nationality.

First time I have noticed the electronic gates, presumably as I hold a UK passport it was not an option for us to use them & we need to continue using the manual Thai gate for the reason stated in OxfordWill's post.

Out of curiosity how long have the electronic gates been operating?

The electronic gates were introduced last year - first for inbound only and later for outbound too.