On the horns of an ethical and professional dilemma

[bundoi]

I receive an application from an NES with 2 years experience in Thailand, married to a Thai lady; they have a young child together.

His degree is a fake from a well known fake university and his inability to supply a home country police check, plus his shiftiness on that subject, suggests some past trouble.

There are several options, including but not limited to …

1. Do nothing, bin the application,
2. Discuss it with him, making him aware that his current employment is based on a fraud which would likely result in a fine and deportation, and a bar to re-entering Thailand
3. Contact the director of his current school
4. Contact the immigration police
5. Request a police check from his home country.

None of these courses of action appeals to me, for different reasons. Most of all I feel sorry for his wife who is quite probably unaware of her husband’s fraud, and unaware that if and when his current school discovers his fraud she and her child will be left without a provider.

What would you do?

I assume it’s ok with the moderators to post this, I know it's a difficult subjet, but it is a genuine and recurrent fact of life in the NES teaching business here.

[mmh8]

I would say that the 2 years experience is a good recommendation and may be enough to be properly certified. Allow for the small error in ways , though what is nes?

[Scott]

I have run into similar situations on more than one occasion. I usually let the person know directly about the degree. I've seen actual fake degrees from Khao San Road (or wherever), as well as degrees that were purchased from on-line, life experience diploma mills. I think the fake ones are illegal, but the life experience degrees are from unaccredited schools. It still might be fraud, but it's a little less obvious.

I don't notify anyone because I don't accept the degree and it is simply put in the bin. I don't notify the current/previous employer, because some of them have helped the person get the degree.

Anyone who has been involved in criminal activity is subject to being reported, if it is reasonably serious -- the only one that I have done this to is someone who was believed to be wanted in another country for child molestation. I didn't do the reporting, but the person that recognized them agreed to report them and the police were given my number if they wanted further information. I am not sure what happened, but he never contacted us and he was not informed of the police would be notified. The person who reported him was a national from the same country and also contacted the Embassy. We didn't know whether the name on the degree was his right name, but the person who reported him turned in the picture.

I don't really have time to be the "teacher police", so I don't notify immigration etc.

[BruceMangosteen]

His current school most likely doesn't really care about the college degree, fake or otherwise. If they did, they would have checked it out in the beginning. Now that he's married to a Thai and they have a child together, the school will show mercy and keep him on, even if they were to become aware of the fraud degree wise. The loss of face firing a teacher combined with hiring one not qualified with a degree far outweighs the reality of the situation. These stories about being deported etc., I've never believed them anyhow. Teachers just say they have a degree, as you mentioned, print one up on the internet, and that is it. I've found most Thai's don't even know what a real transcript is and rely more on the diploma than an actual detailed proof of ones's educational background. It's to repeat,more about who they like and who doesn't complain about anything.

No point in saying something, just bin the CV and call it a day.

[simon43]

and his inability to supply a home country police check

That factor is perhaps of more concern than the fake CV.

Simon

[BruceMangosteen]

and his inability to supply a home country police check

That factor is perhaps of more concern than the fake CV.

Simon

That again isn't as easy as one would think. I have no idea how to get a police check on myself. More important however, it is the employers responsibility to check the applicants police and criminal history. How and why would anyone expect the actual criminal to provide proof he/she's a sexual predator and/or has a history with children? It's defies common sense to rely on the applicant to provide these so called "police check"s. There is no method or means to do it. If there were a means, it would be expensive and who's going to pay for a real background check in these settings? Next they will be asking a native English speaker with a legitimate degree from an accredited western University which teaches in English to take a series of exams written by non-native speakers which make no sense to the western educated native English speaking teacher with a proven and clear teaching record in said country.

[doontp]

and his inability to supply a home country police check

That factor is perhaps of more concern than the fake CV.

Simon

That again isn't as easy as one would think. I have no idea how to get a police check on myself. More important however, it is the employers responsibility to check the applicants police and criminal history. How and why would anyone expect the actual criminal to provide proof he/she's a sexual predator and/or has a history with children? It's defies common sense to rely on the applicant to provide these so called "police check"s. There is no method or means to do it. If there were a means, it would be expensive and who's going to pay for a real background check in these settings? Next they will be asking a native English speaker with a legitimate degree from an accredited western University which teaches in English to take a series of exams written by non-native speakers which make no sense to the western educated native English speaking teacher with a proven and clear teaching record in said country.

I'm American. I took a TEFL Course in America and was told that schools might request a background check from the US Federal Bureau of Investigations (FBI) and that I should obtain this before leaving the US. The course instructor had been a TEFLer in LOS, Japan, and Korea.

As instructed, I went to my local police department and got my fingers printed on two seperate fingerprint cards. This was free. I then mailed these to the FBI with a $20 payment, as per the instructions on their website. The two fingerprint cards were returned to me within a few weeks with "NO ARREST RECORD" stamped in red on the backside of the cards. I then took the cards to the Thai Embassy and they prepared and attached a letter to the cards indicating the validity of the FBI's background check.

Simple for an American. An applicant from America should have this in hand.

[Scott]

It is a little different if you are not in the US when the criminal record check is done.

[fifthcolumn]

Well, I certainly would not tell the cops or his employer <deleted>. He has a Thai child.

I'd just tell him no thanks. If you let the guy in on the secret, he will do a better job next time. Let it be a flag to all such as yourself and Scott.

I don't even know why you would eant that on your concious, he's not working for you.

No idea how ez it is getting clearance out here but it's a hassle back in US if you are only back for a few weeks. Further, local state police office near my parents outsourced it to some 'tard p.i. agency (still, same amnt of time).

The above post is laughable. That is a lot of work and about 100. Driving to the embassy (or consulate?), that is an all day event right there. 95% of schools are not even bothered. Then what are you going to do next year when they ask for one for 2014 or 15? ☺

Edited December 21, 2013 by fifthcolumn

[Scott]

My comments were based on the fact that the person has a degree from an unaccredited school, most likely a diploma mill. This is not a fake degree. It is questionable as to whether it is a fraud on the part of the person with the degree. If you go to somewhere like Khao San Road and have a degree printed up, then it is a fake and it is fraudulent.

There are plenty of schools that are unaccredited for a variety of reason. Some of the well-known Bible Colleges, for example, are not accredited. You do go to school, you do take exams and you do get a degree and a transcript. You can probably continue to work in religion, such as preaching.

When someone applies for a job, I verify the degree. If it does not come back as legitimate, I do let the person know. There is the possibility of a mistake being made, although most people simply disappear and there is no further contact.

[bundoi]

First of all I should say that the scenario I presented is a composite of several fraudulent applications I have received over the last year, not a specific individual; I believe that even would-be fraudulent teachers have some rights to internet privacy; and I am not in any away suggesting a serious crime back home, but of course there's no way of knowing if the applicant doesn't produce a police check.

Re the fake university; it's a well known one in the applicant's home country, and has received media and police attention.

Re the issue of who is responsible for obtaining the police check. There is no specific rule about this; for example some European countries will issue a rapid check to the person who is being checked if s/he requests it, but out of privacy of information and respect for individual rights (even criminals) a 3rd party check is much more lengthy. One thing's for sure, my school would not waste time and money obtaining a police check in the applicant's home country. If the applicant wants to work, s/he needs to present the necessary documents; I have never had any problem with this with a bona fide teacher.

Don't forget that schools also have an obligation to obtain Thai police checks.

Would you support illegal fraudulent unqualified immigrants (possibly criminals) teaching your children in your own country? Why should you accept it here? Because of some notion of farang solidarity?

PS there have been numerous deportations since the new rules were introduced (not just teachers), some reported and discussed on TV; some not. The deportation of a foreigner on a dodgy visa/wp is not at all uncommon, it's just not important enough to make the news, and naturally the individuals themselves are not going to publicise it.

[Scott]

There are some Thai Admin who 'support illegal fraudulent unqualified immigrants' teaching children. I don't know anybody who supports criminals in the system, however.

Your original question was about what to do. Suggesting that we don't gather faggots and tie them to the stake and burn them does not mean that we support them.

If the Thai Admin where I work wishes to call the immigration people or the police, they are welcome to do so.

Do keep in mind if you are wrong that the laws about defamation and libel in Thailand are very, very strong.

[siampolee]

Having been involved in recruiting teachers and interviewing them in the past ( some 21 years) I would certainly reject the application regarding the false degree and also inform the applicant as to why the application was rejected.

Police checks are not always as easy as one may think especially if you are from the U.K but a non resident, the Data Protection Act is stringent in its application Police reports are,also somewhat sketchy in their reports.one can apply to ones local police station, if nothing is recorded you're clean. National records may well tell a different tale though.

Having served in the U.K police force (20+ years) prior to retiring from S.B. I am familiar with the process.

I certainly would not contact the immigration police or inform the mans wife. Nor would I contact his current school director. That director would certainly view your interference as a slight on his or her judgement.

My personal opinion is that I am nor is the O.P the judge or jury regarding the situation surrounding the applications and the applicants. What right do I have to destroy a marriage or a partnership based upon my own self conceived principles?

I have encountered some somewhat colourful characters who are teachers here in Thailand and elsewhere some qualified some not.. If the unqualified rise to the top, so be it. I've seen many a qualified teacher sink without a trace in the Thai system The wind always blows the chaff away and the seed grains stay..

To sum it up bundoi you are a recruiter or a manager not a policeman or a judge who is able and could destroy not just one life but two or three or more, Not a nice thing to have on ones conscience is it?.

Edited December 21, 2013 by siampolee

[zeichen]

A degree mill is not the same as an illegal fake degree. It is not usually approved by MOE and if used would get denied for work permit, but it is not illegal and nothing happens to those people.

However if it is an actual fake degree that is fraud and is punishable under Thai law. Read Hippos day in court on the ajarn forums. He used a fake degree 8 years prior and was fined, and arrested.

"Simple for an American. An applicant from America should have this in hand."

FYI: your FBI check is valid for only 6 months and is useless if the date is passed. So yes, get one before coming over but it is not as easy from abroad.

[rct99q]

Having been involved in recruiting teachers and interviewing them in the past ( some 21 years) I would certainly reject the application regarding the false degree and also inform the applicant as to why the application was rejected.

Police checks are not always as easy as one may think especially if you are from the U.K but a non resident, the Data Protection Act is stringent in its application Police reports are,also somewhat sketchy in their reports.one can apply to ones local police station, if nothing is recorded you're clean. National records may well tell a different tale though.

Having served in the U.K police force (20+ years) prior to retiring from S.B. I am familiar with the process.

I certainly would not contact the immigration police or inform the mans wife. Nor would I contact his current school director. That director would certainly view your interference as a slight on his or her judgement.

My personal opinion is that I am nor is the O.P the judge or jury regarding the situation surrounding the applications and the applicants. What right do I have to destroy a marriage or a partnership based upon my own self conceived principles?

I have encountered some somewhat colourful characters who are teachers here in Thailand and elsewhere some qualified some not.. If the unqualified rise to the top, so be it. I've seen many a qualified teacher sink without a trace in the Thai system The wind always blows the chaff away and the seed grains stay..

To sum it up bundoi you are a recruiter or a manager not a policeman or a judge who is able and could destroy not just one life but two or three or more, Not a nice thing to have on ones conscience is it?.

So same said teacher is sitting in the desk in front of you and you see him/her watching kiddie porn......none of your business is it. You would not want to destroy one life but maybe two, three, or more. You can pick and choose which laws are bendable or breakable or those you wish to ignore......be careful who the so called next victim might be.

I know a fake degree and my example are miles apart but as a recruiter for schools who are placing teachers into positions of trust (young children) I disagree with your comments about not getting involved. As a parent I would not want some of you recruiting teachers for my children.....

[Scott]

I think it has been made clear that the person would not be hired. You are suggesting that action be taken that may not be feasible. Because someone does not have a police clearance, it does not make them a criminal. Perhaps they are, perhaps they aren't. Because someone has a degree from a diploma mill or an unaccredited school, it does not mean they have committed fraud. Perhaps it is fraudulent, perhaps it's not.

What you are suggesting is that in the course of an interview, someone take it upon themselves to contact the police or immigration for something that might be a crime.

Probably 10% of the people I interview arrive with incomplete documentation. There is some paperwork they don't have and I need it. They are not hired until I get it. Very, very few blatantly lie. The documents do arrive and then they are hired.

Watching kiddie porn would get you fired. Watching any kind of porn would get you fired.

If you want to call the police/immigration feel free to do so, but just as a caution, you might find that they have very little interest. I don't know schools that have done so, but I do know individuals who have been upset enough to do it and immigration did not even make a visit.

[siampolee]

rct99q post # 15.

So same said teacher is sitting in the desk in front of you and you see him/her watching kiddie porn......none of your business is it. You would not want to destroy one life but maybe two, three, or more. You can pick and choose which laws are bendable or breakable or those you wish to ignore......be careful who the so called next victim might be.

The hypothetical situation you describe is somewhat different from the situation in the O.P. yet in part it became a reality for myself and my colleagues inthe past. .

To give you a ''real life'' example of a situation not to distantly related to your quote.

We employed a teacher who arrived with excellent references and his background was impeccable. I hadn't been involved in the selection process due to being at a seminar. Upon my return to the office and the teachers room I met the guy ,I didn't feel 100% about him so I did some searching, nothing came up. Then one of our teachers who had been with us for some 4 years came to me and said, ''I know the guys name and face but I can't place them

.

The concerned teacher and dug around friends and lo and behold we found the new hire was a pedophile who had been supplying obscene images to a female teacher and old colleague in the U.K .She'd been nabbed and was on trial.

The concerned teacher had seen the new hires name as mentioned in the case and so as stated we searched around local papers in the U.K. found the name and some pictures of the new hire at a school he had worked at in the U.K. seems as no offence had been committed or discovered so he was in the clear check wise.

However his track record here in Thailand when we uncovered it was not a pleasant record, he had worked in the North and Central Thailand and all of his employers gave him excellent references due to the fact that they did not want to be exposed as employing a ''kiddy fiddler''

The new hire had married into a Thai family with both criminal and police connections, thus no Thai school director was going to go public for the fear of both looking bad for employing the 'kiddy fiddler'' and also for the fear of a violent if not fatal reaction from the new hires family.

We confronted the new hire in the teachers room where he had been having a weeks induction and so no classroom and indeed limited if any student contact too.. He said nothing and collected his scant possessions and he was escorted of off the premises by myself, the Academic manager and three security guards ,

We alerted the police and all the school managers we knew as to the man his name his references his previous employers etc so he was out of the loop in the international and bilingual and E.P. schools circuit.

Sadly though we next had wind of this despicable character working in a Thai government school, they were contacted but took no action sad to say. Family mafia and police connections came together and protected the kiddy fiddler.

So your comments concerning my and others moral judgement are unfounded, there are very big differences twixt the O.P. situation and the hypothetical situation you described. that hypothetical situation was a reality to myself and my colleagues and we acted correctly.

Sad to say' ' the Thai system betrayed our children and our profession not we professionals.''

Edited December 22, 2013 by siampolee

[bundoi]

I had a hope that the topic might inspire a discussion of ethical, moral and professional responsibilities ;-(

@siampolee I'm bit confused about what you are saying here...

"The concerned teacher and dug around friends and lo and behold we found the new hire was a pedophile who had been supplying obscene images to a female teacher and old colleague in the U.K .She'd been nabbed and was on trial.

The concerned teacher had seen the new hires name as mentioned in the case and so as stated we searched around local papers in the U.K. found the name and some pictures of the new hire at a school he had worked at in the U.K. seems as no offence had been committed or discovered so he was in the clear check wise."

If there was no offence committed or discovered in the UK, how could he be a known criminal in the UK?

Re the fraud, supplying a "degree certificate" issued by a well known fake degree "university" is fraud pure and simple, and that is a crime in the applicant's home country and here in Thailand too.

In Thailand there is a very simple and effective process for screening foreign applicants, both for professional acceptance and for character acceptance; my school follows it.

We work closely with both the MoE and the police and I have nothing but praise for them.

[Scott]

Off-topic post and reply deleted.

[NeverSure]

-snip-

My personal opinion is that I am nor is the O.P the judge or jury regarding the situation surrounding the applications and the applicants. What right do I have to destroy a marriage or a partnership based upon my own self conceived principles?

I have encountered some somewhat colourful characters who are teachers here in Thailand and elsewhere some qualified some not.. If the unqualified rise to the top, so be it. I've seen many a qualified teacher sink without a trace in the Thai system The wind always blows the chaff away and the seed grains stay..

There are so many NES's with no qualifications or background checks working in Isaan it would be impossible to find all of them. Yes they have the risk of no work permit, and either do border runs or have an extension based on retirement or something.

But schools pay so little, and many qualified teachers don't want to live in an Isaan village for the pay that's offered. The schools just seem to look the other way and hire them.

And yes, some are gifted and "rise to the top." Others are hopeless. Teaching is a gift in addition to an education, and that's one of the reasons that some qualified teachers are blown away with the chaff.

Most of those schools don't have a Scott who has a feel for farangs, and who follows the rules. It is a Thai who does the hiring, and the Thai likely doesn't speak English. A white NES who will work in the Thai system in a village for low pay isn't that easy to find. Many village schools have never had an NES of any stripe.

I have been offered jobs at two different Isaan village schools and I'm not qualified. My issue is that I wouldn't work within the Thai school system for so little pay even if I wanted to work. My only motivation would be to help kids, but the whole system from parents to administration seems determined to block that.

[Pops]

Don't be a rat !

There are enough of them out there already.

[harrycallahan]

There's at least one other here who doesn't know what NES means. Anyone?

(there's no T for teacher, so hard to work out)

[Scott]

NES = Native English Speaker. Sorry about that.

I also get mixed up with a lot of acronyms and abbreviations. They are used far too much, especially on the internet.

[recycler]

You should be very careful with somebody covering up his past in relation to teaching kids certainly if you don't know what he's covering.

Thailand is known to be a relative safe hideout for child molesters and pedophiles, an job in eduction can be attractive for them, better safe than sorry I would say.

[lostinsurin]

I would guess that about 70% of farang teachers here have a degree problem,

I have not heard of any problems getting a work permit or the MoE not accepting them,

there was a report on one diploma mill that is no longer accepted by the MoE but I am sure the Thais are aware of the problem

but chose to ignore it as to deal with the matter would leave them very short of teachers.

[philotruth3]

While there are child molesters that we should be throwing in jail and leaving there forever, (i don't understand why they let them out) it is also worth noting that america is on a witch hunt and thousands of people are being unfairly charged and having their lives along with their families destroyed. Even teens are been charged as sex offenders for texting themselves half naked. So accusations are often bogus,; be prudent but skeptical.

[siampolee]

The concerned teacher and dug around friends and lo and behold we found the new hire was a pedophile who had been supplying obscene images to a female teacher and old colleague in the U.K .She'd been nabbed and was on trial.

bundoi.

Possibly I didn't make the situation clear and you missed the meaning of the contents of that short passage, Read the paragraph above and your question is answered.My apologies for the shortcoming and which lead to your confusion and your understanding of the legal implications of someones actions.

The new hire was mentioned in the case as supplying obscene material.That is a criminal offence within the U.K. legal framework. hence our actions which to all concerned at the time and thereafter were appropriate and totally correct to the situation.

Supply equates to publishing hence although not charged at the time he had committed a criminal act and was a criminal, in fact there now exists an arrest warrant for the new hire should he return to the U.K. His name is flagged in the system and he would be arrested, denied bail and put on trial the U.K.

I could write about the infamous now deceased teacher who worked at three international schools in Thailand and his reputation was known and had been since 1997 I personally had alerted fellow colleagues with regards to the teachers name and the case in Australia where he had been aided in his departure by a high ranking member of the ecclesiastical calling.

He survived in the system because not one admin would acknowledge they had employed the man and in a position of responsibility too. The man was actually arrested in his apartment on Sukhumvit soi 62 after he narrowly avoided arrest while he was in the U.K. on holiday. The Thai courts let him free due to '' well who knows what and who knows who,'', he had mentioned that if he went down there would be many embarrassed people and prestigious schools around

That particular creature is now deceased having been murdered in Libya for kiddy fiddling, not a great loss to the human race in my eyes.

The ethics in the matters are complex however balance has to be made and whatever action you or I and others may take we have to consider the system here and the way it works and who it works for.

Sadly in many cases as professionals we are peeing in the wind when we try to raise the standards money and position count and as foreigners we do not figure in that particular league.

[rct99q]

The reason I brought up the scenario was to see if anybody would bite. By that I mean we look at certain offences as minor and others as extremely offensive. One poster wrote "don't be a rat", and this is exactly the point. We are judged by our actions by certain groups in our society.

You presented a situation (not real but based on facts) that you felt needed to be addressed in an open forum. Would you turn this person in! I guess that depends on your moral fibre. Are you worried about how you may be judged by peers or by others (you are a rat). Or are you guided by a higher judge......yourself. I work here in Thailand and it seems many of the other posters may as well. We all bitch and moan sometimes about pay, working conditions, this and that. Yet when confronted by one of the very problems that help exacerbate this situation you seem stuck.

This "person" would be deliberately breaking one of the rules set out by the Thai Government / Education Department and you as a recruiter (which I interpret as being a person who should uphold the rules under which you were given this responsibility) are unsure what you should do.

I am not a 'rat" I am a person with high moral fibre, strong ethics and the ability to stand up to people and do what should be done. As soon as this so called person purchased a fake degree at some store he placed himself/herself in the position of being caught and deported etc....he/she put his/her family in danger, he/she made that decision easy for "you" as the recruiter by being unethical.

You are not destroying this persons life by 'turning" them in, they made that decision long before you met them.

I realize this will go against 99.9% of the TV forum members.....but i guess I am different.

[rct99q]

The concerned teacher and dug around friends and lo and behold we found the new hire was a pedophile who had been supplying obscene images to a female teacher and old colleague in the U.K .She'd been nabbed and was on trial.

bundoi.

Possibly I didn't make the situation clear and you missed the meaning of the contents of that short passage, Read the paragraph above and your question is answered.My apologies for the shortcoming and which lead to your confusion and your understanding of the legal implications of someones actions.

The new hire was mentioned in the case as supplying obscene material.That is a criminal offence within the U.K. legal framework. hence our actions which to all concerned at the time and thereafter were appropriate and totally correct to the situation.

Supply equates to publishing hence although not charged at the time he had committed a criminal act and was a criminal, in fact there now exists an arrest warrant for the new hire should he return to the U.K. His name is flagged in the system and he would be arrested, denied bail and put on trial the U.K.

I could write about the infamous now deceased teacher who worked at three international schools in Thailand and his reputation was known and had been since 1997 I personally had alerted fellow colleagues with regards to the teachers name and the case in Australia where he had been aided in his departure by a high ranking member of the ecclesiastical calling.

He survived in the system because not one admin would acknowledge they had employed the man and in a position of responsibility too. The man was actually arrested in his apartment on Sukhumvit soi 62 after he narrowly avoided arrest while he was in the U.K. on holiday. The Thai courts let him free due to '' well who knows what and who knows who,'', he had mentioned that if he went down there would be many embarrassed people and prestigious schools around

That particular creature is now deceased having been murdered in Libya for kiddy fiddling, not a great loss to the human race in my eyes.

The ethics in the matters are complex however balance has to be made and whatever action you or I and others may take we have to consider the system here and the way it works and who it works for.

Sadly in many cases as professionals we are peeing in the wind when we try to raise the standards money and position count and as foreigners we do not figure in that particular league.

Sorry to jump on this...but don't blame the system, that is too easy. I am not judging you or anybody else's actions here. I just would not want to be the parent of a child who was assaulted and then be told by some person "well, that is the Thai system, nothing we can do".

edit:be

Edited December 23, 2013 by rct99q

[rct99q]

ps - to the OP and the rest of the readers...I am not suggesting in any way that the "person" in the original post had anything to do with being a paedophile or any other criminal act.