More bad news for gays in Uganda

[Jingthing]

Another reason to support harsh international reaction to this new wave of SEVERE anti-gay persecution is as a WARNING to other countries considering doing this. It is spreading especially in Africa. Probably they don't think the threats are serious. When they see they are serious (hopefully they really are serious, otherwise this backfires) the minority voices of moderation will have a stronger argument ... not to support gays but to avoid punishment.

[Scott]

The mistreatment of a group of people goes beyond politics. In the case of gays, they are being specifically targeted and persecuted. They are not a political party nor are they necessarily aligned with a political group.

There needs to be severe sanctions. The gov'ts actions are not simply denying rights, they are actively persecuting people. How did they get the names of the gays they published in newspaper? It's pretty easy to accuse people of this without any verifiable evidence or without court involvement. It is a very vile type of persecution.

[isanbirder]

As a reaction to the new law, the normally apolitical World Bank has postponed a $90 million loan intended to improve health care. There has also been a run on the Ugandan shilling.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/28/world-bank-uganda-loan-anti-gay-law

It's good to see the widespread anger at Museveni's repulsive bill...... but wouldn't the World Bank's action hurt a lot of Ugandans without noticeably helping the gays?

Yes it would hurt Uganda.

These new policies are massively popular in Uganda.

Entities are denied "loans" for various reasons.

This reason seems legit.

The idea is a combination of international pressures over time has a CHANCE of encouraging a change. Not because they don't hate gays. Because they will then have a stronger SELF INTEREST than hating gays, loving themselves. Doing nothing certainly will do NOTHING.

You've sidestepped my comment, Jingthing. I said it would hurt a lot of Ugandans; you changed that to 'it would hurt Uganda'. Not the same thing.

That said, I quite agree that the rest of the world has to hit Uganda where it hurts, or else Museveni's gang will take no notice of the widespread condemnation of their bill. But we should not forget that, at the same time, a lot of innocent Ugandans will be hurt.

[Jingthing]

You're splitting hairs and just being argumentative. Of course hurting Uganda and hurting Ugandans is the SAME THING. If you're going to play such trivial games, fine, here you go: IT WILL HURT THE UGANDAN PEOPLE IN GENERAL.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Jingthing

[sustento]

You're splitting hairs and just being argumentative.

[Jingthing]

You're splitting hairs and just being argumentative.

Back to topic, I wasn't dodging the point and that was obvious to any reasonable reader.

Edited February 28, 2014 by Jingthing

[onthemoon]

You're splitting hairs and just being argumentative. Of course hurting Uganda and hurting Ugandans is the SAME THING. If you're going to play such trivial games, fine, here you go: IT WILL HURT THE UGANDAN PEOPLE IN GENERAL.

I've seen this in Myanmar: The sanctions and embargo by the West did not hurt the people in power at all, but many factories had to close down, so it hit the general population and created more poverty. It hurt Myanmar people in general.

Hurting Uganda (i.e. the government) and hurting hurting Ugandans (i.e. the people) is NOT the same thing.

Just saying. And this is far from splitting hairs, believe me. This is about people and families making a livelihood and surviving in the jungle out there. And of course, gay people living in that jungle and having to negotiate it. Trying to survive.

Welcome to reality. A far cry from the comfortable expat-life you are enjoying.

[Jingthing]

What will it take to get some of you folks to see a harsh reaction is needed? Concentration camps? It's like you're acting as apologists for what's going on there. Is this the common view of "conservative" gays, do you think?

[Scott]

The attitude towards gays is probably symptomatic of an attitude toward other groups of people as well. It's not a kinder, gentler nation. There is absolutely no way to help the poor without enriching the administration.

You do know that when the UN delivers humanitarian assistance in war zones an agreement is made as to what % will go to the military troops? When I worked in the former Yugoslavia, the military took 17% of the goods directly before the convoys could proceed. If you travel through both warring sides, a percent goes to the other side as well. When the UN objects it is usually because they have upped the amount without informing everyone in advance.

So, Uganda's got some crap leaders. And poor people will always pay the price for that. When the leaders, however, are stuck inside their own little nation because they end up with warrants for human rights violations, they will have a lot less access to their bank accounts and overseas homes.

So, I support the cut in assistance.

[Jingthing]

Thank you John Kerry. I knew he was a great man long ago when I saw him lead the Vietnam Veterans Against The War. Too bad be lost his presidential election bid.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-human-rights-report-focuses-more-on-lgbt-discrimination-in-global-community/2014/02/27/2db1959c-9ff1-11e3-9ba6-800d1192d08b_story.html

A day earlier, Kerry blasted the anti-gay law in Uganda as akin to state-sponsored discrimination by Hitler’s Nazi Germany or apartheid-era South Africa.

“You could change the focus of this legislation to black or Jewish, and you could be in 1930s Germany, or you could be in 1950s or ’60s apartheid South Africa,” Kerry said during a roundtable interview with reporters Wednesday. “It was wrong there, egregiously, in both places, and it is wrong here.”

[isanbirder]

Thank you John Kerry. I knew he was a great man long ago when I saw him lead the Vietnam Veterans Against The War. Too bad be lost his presidential election bid.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-human-rights-report-focuses-more-on-lgbt-discrimination-in-global-community/2014/02/27/2db1959c-9ff1-11e3-9ba6-800d1192d08b_story.html

A day earlier, Kerry blasted the anti-gay law in Uganda as akin to state-sponsored discrimination by Hitler’s Nazi Germany or apartheid-era South Africa.

“You could change the focus of this legislation to black or Jewish, and you could be in 1930s Germany, or you could be in 1950s or ’60s apartheid South Africa,” Kerry said during a roundtable interview with reporters Wednesday. “It was wrong there, egregiously, in both places, and it is wrong here.”

Yes, good for John Kerry.

[onthemoon]

What will it take to get some of you folks to see a harsh reaction is needed? Concentration camps? It's like you're acting as apologists for what's going on there. Is this the common view of "conservative" gays, do you think?

Reaction is needed, but an embargo is not the right way. As I said, it would hurt only the poor, not the ones in power.

[sustento]

What will it take to get some of you folks to see a harsh reaction is needed? Concentration camps? It's like you're acting as apologists for what's going on there. Is this the common view of "conservative" gays, do you think?

No we're just avoiding getting into another pissing contest by keeping our opinions to ourselves.

[geriatrickid]

It is a simplistic cop out to blame evangelical Christians for a shift in a nation's position. It provides a convenient excuse that allows some to ignore that the laws reflect a view demonstrated in long standing cultural and societal practices. The hostile views expressed about homosexuals are not new in Africa and were around long before the foreign evangelicals showed up. Yes, the foreigners exacerbated the situation and yes they have advocated what is for all intents and purposes hateful prejudice. However, human beings have free will and the blaming of an outside party for what is unquestionably a personal choice to discriminate and to cause injury allows those who support the laws to avoid personal responsibility.

There was no law that compelled the local newspapers to publish the names of alleged homosexuals. The newspaper editor(s) and publisher knew very well that naming people would result in death and injury, and yet they chose to do so. They alone made the decision. They alone chose to abandon any semblance of humanity and decency and they alone chose to encourage hatred The blood of these named people will be on their hands as they will be just as guilty of the people who will now go and beat/kill the named people.

To those who claim this hatred is the fault of foreigners, it is not. One must take responsibility for his/her own personal actions. African countries have previously rejected many western views. Many countries still reject the concept of open and free elections or political dissent. The Ugandan law is no different than other previous discriminatory government actions in Africa. Instead of government officials fanning rivalries between Tutsi and Hutus and urging the murder of Hutus as was the case in Rwanda and Burundi, we have the Uganda government directing hatred directed at "gays". This set of laws isn't really that much different then what Rwandan government officials did in the lead up to the genocide.

The question should now be, what will the world do knowing that tens of thousands of human beings are at risk of being slaughtered and of having their fundamental human rights denied.

[Jingthing]

What will it take to get some of you folks to see a harsh reaction is needed? Concentration camps? It's like you're acting as apologists for what's going on there. Is this the common view of "conservative" gays, do you think?

No we're just avoiding getting into another pissing contest by keeping our opinions to ourselves.

Actually, the opinion to avoid any strong reaction that might be punishing was crystal clear.

Anyway, Whoopi speaks:

[sustento]

What will it take to get some of you folks to see a harsh reaction is needed? Concentration camps? It's like you're acting as apologists for what's going on there. Is this the common view of "conservative" gays, do you think?

No we're just avoiding getting into another pissing contest by keeping our opinions to ourselves.

Actually, the opinion to avoid any strong reaction that might be punishing was crystal clear.

So you can tell what I think without me actually expressing an opinion? How do you manage to do that then? Make assumptions based on your own prejudices?

[Jingthing]

I'm not playing into your game. We have different POVs, that's all.

[sustento]

I'm not playing into your game. We have different POVs, that's all.

Then why are you trying to imply what my opinions on the mistreatment of gays in Uganda are when I've never actually voiced any? You're doing what you always do - making stuff up to suit your own agenda.

[onthemoon]

What will it take to get some of you folks to see a harsh reaction is needed? Concentration camps? It's like you're acting as apologists for what's going on there. Is this the common view of "conservative" gays, do you think?

No we're just avoiding getting into another pissing contest by keeping our opinions to ourselves.

Actually, the opinion to avoid any strong reaction that might be punishing was crystal clear.

Anyway, Whoopi speaks:

I like what Whoopi says.

[Jingthing]

A parade in Uganda to celebrate the anti-gay laws.

In other words, even more bad news:

Participants carried signs through the capital city with messages reading "Museveni, thank you for saving the future of Uganda," "Homosexuality + AIDS = 100%," and "Obama, we want trade not homosexuality." In a none-too-subtle attempt to counter the pro-LGBT Pride parades held in Uganda for the first time last year, participants at the antigay rally carried professionally produced banners touting "Uganda Pride."

Often enemies of gay civil rights whine about gay pride parades saying why not a straight pride parade? Interesting that the Ugandans picked up on that idea with this horrible parade of HATRED and persecution.

http://www.advocate.com/world/2014/04/01/watch-ugandan-president-leads-5-hour-parade-celebrating-jail-gays-law

[Scott]

I must save a link to this thread when people say there aren't 'straight parades'.

[Scott]

God, what a tasteless parade.

I would be ashamed to be straight. It looks more like closing time at the pub than a parade.

[Jingthing]

I must save a link to this thread when people say there aren't 'straight parades'.

Excellent point.

When people say we should have a straight parade, you can bet the house they harbor hostility towards gay people.

These Ugandans are definitely well out of the closet on that.

[sustento]

God, what a tasteless parade.

I would be ashamed to be straight. It looks more like closing time at the pub than a parade.

No sequins! No co-ordinated outfits! Shameless!

[sustento]

I wrote to my MP about the situation in Uganda and got a reply from the FCO. A bit waffly but they do raise the question regularly with Ugandan officials. They also assured me that they no longer give any aid directly to the Ugandan government although they still give some aid to NGOs and local charities.

Edited April 6, 2014 by sustento