Marriage Registration

[FiftyTwo]

Of course the problem is, the thread title is wrong.

The title should be "Marriage in Thailand"

The OP doesn't appear to be married.

"Marriage Registration" is for couples that marry abroad, then want it acknowledged by the Thai authorities.

A completely different subject.

Getting the documents for a marriage in Thailand.

Find a MFA approved translator, pay them for a completed job (I paid 5000bht).

Go to an Amphur office that is foreigner friendly, and complete the marriage.

The Amphur office requires only

1 The foreigner passport, the affirmation from the MFA.

2 The Thai person house book, the Thai person ID card.

It's very simple, it isn't expensive.

Some Amphurs don't want to marry foreigners and make everything difficult.

No point fighting them, just go elsewhere.

Edited January 9, 2014 by FiftyTwo

[wym]

As I said before, it's not clear to me that all or many countries consulates' do/offer the second document/divorce affidavit.

You haven't indicated whether your country's consulate offered/does them. But it's pretty clear you didn't have one when arriving at the Amphur office.

So the question remains, when someone has BOTH the freedom to marry AND the divorce affidavits, will the Amphur offices still want to see versions of one's divorce court papers from back home, or the affidavits alone will suffice?

Your "imagining" they wouldn't, based on your own case where you didn't have any consulate divorce affidavit, isn't quite a factual resolution.

I'm American. As I said I never heard of the divorce affidavit, but probably because I didn't need it.

As I said go for it without the decree doc and see how you go, what's the advantage of being so certain in advance? It's just a trip down the road to the local office to find out.

[wym]

Of course the problem is, the thread title is wrong.

The title should be "Marriage in Thailand"

The OP doesn't appear to be married.

"Marriage Registration" is for couples that marry abroad, then want it acknowledged by the Thai authorities.

A completely different subject.

Getting the documents for a marriage in Thailand.

Find a MFA approved translator, pay them for a completed job (I paid 5000bht).

Go to an Amphur office that is foreigner friendly, and complete the marriage.

The Amphur office requires only

1 The foreigner passport, the affirmation from the MFA.

2 The Thai person house book, the Thai person ID card.

It's very simple, it isn't expensive.

Some Amphurs don't want to marry foreigners and make everything difficult.

No point fighting them, just go elsewhere.

For me, registering my marriage and getting married at the registrar mean the same thing. Why would anyone need a marriage performed in another country to be 'acknowledged' by the Thai authorities?

And you're missing the proof of divorce requirement, which of course is the topic at hand.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I'm American. As I said I never heard of the divorce affidavit, but probably because I didn't need it.

As I said go for it without the decree doc and see how you go, what's the advantage of being so certain in advance? It's just a trip down the road to the local office to find out.

The divorce affidavit is pretty clearly listed on the U.S. consulate website's explanation of marriage in Thailand, right in the same section where the Freedom to Marry affidavit is discussed. Anyone actually reading their info would see it.

The advantage is knowing ahead of time whether or not I can avoid having to mess with having a Thai translation done of my U.S. divorce papers from years ago.

Edited January 9, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[FiftyTwo]

For me, registering my marriage and getting married at the registrar mean the same thing. Why would anyone need a marriage performed in another country to be 'acknowledged' by the Thai authorities?

And you're missing the proof of divorce requirement, which of course is the topic at hand.

Marriages abroad need to be registered at the local Amphur Office, for a foreigner to get ....

Marriage extension on a visa (from Thai immigration).

Parental rights over any children born in the marriage (while in Thailand).

Rights of inheritance over marital property (in Thailand).

Prevent your Thai spouse getting married again (in Thailand).

Thai Citizenship applications.

As for the divorce documents, only required by your own consulate for the purpose of issuing an "affirmation", not required for anything by any Thai official body. And your own consulate won't check the documents either, it's just box ticking. If you tick the box, declaring yourself "never married", you still get the "affirmation" and your marriage in Thailand is still legal.

Edited January 9, 2014 by FiftyTwo

[wym]

The divorce affidavit is pretty clearly listed on the U.S. consulate website's explanation of marriage in Thailand, right in the same section where the Freedom to Marry affidavit is discussed. Anyone actually reading their info would see it.

The advantage is knowing ahead of time whether or not I can avoid having to mess with having a Thai translation done of my U.S. divorce papers from years ago.

I just said I never heard of it because I didn't need it, my local khaet was two blocks away from my office and I just got what the guy told me to get, easy peasy.

For the third time now, go for it with the minimum you think required then if you need more make a second trip, what's the big deal?

[wym]

Marriages abroad need to be registered at the local Amphur Office, for a foreigner to get ....

Marriage extension on a visa (from Thai immigration).

Parental rights over any children born in the marriage (while in Thailand).

Rights of inheritance over marital property (in Thailand).

Prevent your Thai spouse getting married again (in Thailand).

Thai Citizenship applications.

Thanks, didn't think of people marrying a TG outside of Thailand and then living here.

As for the divorce documents, only required by your own consulate for the purpose of issuing an "affirmation", not required for anything by any Thai official body. And your own consulate won't check the documents either, it's just box ticking.

My khaet required the divorce document + translation in addition to the affidavit.

[FiftyTwo]

My khaet required the divorce document + translation in addition to the affidavit.

They were being difficult ...... it's not required.

Better to find an office that isn't difficult.

Some offices will refuse to marry a foreigner outright.

The office I used couldn't have been more helpful, gave us free drinks and sweets, gave us flowers, gave us a wedding present. Then two months later refused to marry another foreigner, told him to go away. Who would figure?

Edited January 9, 2014 by FiftyTwo

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

For the third time now, go for it with the minimum you think required then if you need more make a second trip, what's the big deal?

I'm looking for a simple answer to a specific factual question -- one that you're obviously not able to answer. So you might as well stop trying.

[FiftyTwo]

For the third time now, go for it with the minimum you think required then if you need more make a second trip, what's the big deal?

I'm looking for a simple answer to a specific factual question -- one that you're obviously not able to answer. So you might as well stop trying.

The Thai government correct answer is that it isn't required.

The other correct answer is, your local jackbooted office manager might require whatever he wants, TiT.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Here's exactly what the U.S. Consulate website says about its "freedom to marry" and separate "divorced" affidavits.

Affidavit that you are legally free to marry

Thai law requires all foreigners who marry in Thailand, whether they are marrying other foreigners or Thai nationals, to first prepare a sworn Affidavit of Marriage: Marriage Affidavit (PDF 39KB).

If you have previously registered marriage, please verify its status by completing supplemental affidavit: Previous marital status (PDF 36KB). Then, the affidavit(s) must be notarized by their own country's embassy, affirming that they are legally free to marry.

You can find out more about requirements for getting married in Thailand.

Fee: $50 for the affidavit of marriage; an additional $50 for the second affidavit.

http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/service/notarial-services.html

However, on the Consulate's separate webpage about marriage information, they include the following detail:

If either you or your fiance have been previously married the Amphur will want to see proof that prior marriages have been terminated. Divorce or death certificates should suffice. These documents, if available, should be translated into Thai prior to presentation at the Amphur.

http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/service/marriage.html

That second reference, at the very bottom of the page, kind of leaves in limbo what's the difference between getting or relying on the Consulate's secondary "divorce" affidavit vs. skipping that and relying instead on one's actual divorce court papers translated into Thai.

[FiftyTwo]

The consulate web page is wrong.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

As for the divorce documents, only required by your own consulate for the purpose of issuing an "affirmation", not required for anything by any Thai official body. And your own consulate won't check the documents either, it's just box ticking. If you tick the box, declaring yourself "never married", you still get the "affirmation" and your marriage in Thailand is still legal.

Well, considering that I WAS previously married, ticking the box at the U.S. Consulate declaring that I was "never married" and swearing to that under oath kind of strikes me as a bad idea -- even if it might save me $50 U.S. by not having to execute the second "divorced" affidavit.

[FiftyTwo]

As for the divorce documents, only required by your own consulate for the purpose of issuing an "affirmation", not required for anything by any Thai official body. And your own consulate won't check the documents either, it's just box ticking. If you tick the box, declaring yourself "never married", you still get the "affirmation" and your marriage in Thailand is still legal.

Well, considering that I WAS previously married, ticking the box at the U.S. Consulate declaring that I was "never married" and swearing to that under oath kind of strikes me as a bad idea -- even if it might save me $50 U.S. by not having to execute the second "divorced" affidavit.

I lie to my government whenever I get the opportunity.

I consider that fair as they lie to me at every opportunity.

[wym]

For the Nth time now, go for it with the minimum you think required then if you need more make a second trip, what's the big deal?

When you find out do please report back, but note your finding will only strictly apply to that location, and in some cases may be a different answer if you deal with someone else, or he got up on the other side of the bed, etc.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I will report back when I get some more official answers...

And yes, such in life in Thailand, a different answer for the same question every day, every different place you go.

But I will say this for the moment...

1. The U.S. Consulate website has a list of translation services that they recommend for using... At the very bottom of the document it's dated as 2010.

Tonight, in checking on the Internet and searching the websites for those various named businesses, almost all of them seem to have moved or otherwise changed, rendering most of the info on the consulate document vastly out-of-date.

2. I wrote an email to the ACS office this afternoon generally asking for clarification about the role/use of their "divorce affidavit" vs. a person's actual court divorce papers in the process of registering a Thai marriage.

Within an hour, I got a long email back that re-stated a lot of the marriage info listed on the Consulate's website (that I had already well-read), but utterly failed to answer, or even attempt to answer, any of the 3 very clear and specific questions I had posed. So I wrote them a follow-up email asking, hey, how about answering my questions??? No further reply as of tonight.

3. The last time I asked for advice at ACS was a few months back when getting a new passport, and asking about a detail of how to proceed with Thai Immigration re my extensions of stay. The person at the counter gave me specific advice that was flatly wrong, and when I inquired about the issue here on ThaiVisa, later found out the advice I had been given was out-of-date and no longer was the correct procedure.

Edited January 9, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[wym]

Looking for love in all the wrong places.

The primary function of the embassy is to facilitate corporate trade.

The secondary one is to facilitate diplomatic relations with the host country.

The tertiary one is trying to slow down as much as possible the immigration of inappropriate TGs.

Helping US citizens is way way down the list.

Might as well try to get the nutritional information on Big Macs at your local Burger King.

Just head down to the registry office and they'll tell you exactly what they require!!!

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I will report back when I get some more official answers...

Well, I did follow-up on this, and got a second email reply from ACS at the U.S. Consulate the next day. My fiancee also spoke on the phone with the marriage person at the Phra Kanong Amphur office here in BKK.

In their second reply, ACS at least confirmed that THEY don't need to see a person's divorce legal papers from the U.S. in order to provide the freedom to marry and divorce affidavits. That was one of the three questions I asked them.

Meanwhile, after explaining everything ahead of time to my fiancee about the various documents involved, the answer she got from the Phra Kanong Amphur was that THEY only needed to see the MFA certified and translated consulate affidavits, and that they did NOT need to see translated U.S. legal divorce papers.

However, the ACS folks in their second email still repeated the language on the ACS website about that amphurs will require to see translated, certified copies of U.S. divorce papers.

Unfortunately, but not surprisingly, couldn't get them to explain what's the purpose of having to obtain a secondary "divorce" affidavit from the consulate IF the amphurs are requiring translated, certified copies of U.S. divorce papers -- which clearly, not all are requiring.

You do not need to show the divorce certificate to the Embassy but you will need to show it to the Thai authorities.

If you are divorced, you will need to obtain a divorce affidavit at the embassy.

To the best of our knowledge the divorce affidavit is accepted by the Thai authorities.

Best regards,

American Citizen Services Unit/AB

[FiftyTwo]

Why don't you take the time to listen to people that know?

You can't get anywhere in Thailand using email and internet.

The only person that counts is the head of your Amphur office.

It's what he wants that matters.

You annoy him by "knowing your rights" and you won't be getting married there.

Go and see him in person, ask what documents he wants, be polite and agree with everything he says.

Any other way ..... you have a problem.

[wym]

Really, seems a bit thick doesn't he.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Go and see him in person, ask what documents he wants, be polite and agree with everything he says.

Any other way ..... you have a problem.

That's what my fiance did, contacting the Amphur marriage staff person on the phone, and that's the info I posted on above...

But perhaps you have trouble reading and understanding plain English.

The Phra Kanong Amphur office does NOT require a farang to provide home country divorce papers -- only the two affidavits from your consulate.

I have no problem, and you shouldn't either, since the answer I've provided above is consistent with the personal experience you reported -- in my case, that the home country divorce papers are NOT required, at least at Phra Kanong.

Edited January 12, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

The U.S. consulate here appears to have a two step/two document process for those previously but no longer married.

The first document is the regular affirmation of freedom to marry, which they will notarize for $50. That document alone seems to suffice for those who have never been previously married. And a Thai translation of that needs to be taken to the MFA and later the Amphur office.

But then there's also a second document that basically is an affidavit of divorce, indicating you were previously married and then divorced on such and such date and location. They'll also notarize that document for another $50. But I see no indication the U.S. Consulate requires a copy of one's original divorce papers in order to execute that affidavit.

But what's not clear to me is, if a previously divorced person has both of those Consulate notarized/MFA certified documents in hand, will the Thai Amphur office (or anyone else in the process) ALSO need to see a Thai translated version of your original home country divorce certificate?

Or will the notarized/certified affidavits alone suffice???

Read down on the page under the section: Affidavit that you are legally free to marry

http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/service/notarial-services.html

Just to answer my own question here:

After visiting and speaking with the staff at the Bangrak Amphur office in Bangkok, which is supposed to be one of the more cooperative for handling Thai-farang marriage registrations, they assured that they only will want to see my "freedom to marry" and "prior divorce" affidavits from my (U.S.) Consulate in BKK and the Thai MFA-certified Thai translations of those.

The Bangrak Amphur marriage staff said they did NOT need to see my original U.S. divorce degree or any Thai translation of it.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Wife and I registered our marriage the other day at Bangrak Amphur office in BKK... Seems the easiest way to get to that office on Nares Road is to take the BTS Silom line to Saphan Taksin station, and then about a 40-50 baht taxi trip to the Amphur that took about 10 minutes at rush-hour.

Process at the amphur went smoothly. We arrived at their opening time of 8 am, were third in queue for marriage registration, and were done by about 9:30 am. Thai staff there were friendly and helpful, so it was a relatively pleasant, hassle-free experience.

Having inquired of the staff there in advance through my wife, we came prepared with two photocopies of almost everything they required, as requested: my passport photo page and latest visa/re-entry stamps, her Thai ID card, and her tabien ban page. They also wanted to see/use the originals of my passport and her Thai ID card and tabien ban, so be sure to bring those along in addition to the photocopies.

I didn't realize, they'd also want an extra second copy of my Consulate-issued "free to marry" and "past divorce" affidavits and their MFA-certified Thai translations. So my wife had to buy an extra second set of copies of those from a photocopy shop just a bit down the street from the Amphur office near a 7/11 market. So yes, they want two sets of those affidavit documents as well (being the originals and a photocopy set).

After arriving with all our documents, my wife still had to fill out another longish form entirely in Thai that was given to her by the Amphur staff that seemed to repeat pretty much all the other details and official info we had already presented to them in various forms. It turns out that form, roughly translated as Request to Register Marriage, is listed as their Kor Ror 1 document. Some of the other questions included how many times I'd visited Thailand before moving here, and how long my wife and I have known each other. Actually, most of the time we spent at the Amphur was spent with my wife hand-writing the information on the Kor Ror 1 form.

Unlike some other Amphur offices in BKK, no hassle about bringing along a third-party translator. And Bangrak also didn't require two/any witnesses, although, the staff at the front counter suggested and agreed to be our witnesses in exchange for us making a 60 baht envelope donation to an upcountry temple. The fee for registering the marriage itself was 40 baht.

For that price, we received two-single page, color printed Kor Ror 3 marriage certificate documents, and one copy of the Kor Ror 2 marriage registration document. My wife then took that out to the nearby copy shop, returned with several copies, which the marriage supervisor behind the front counter then proceeded to stamp and make official, so we ended up walking away with 4 stamped sets of the Kor Ror 2 document.

The blank Kor Ror 2 document looks something like this:

The blank Kor Ror 3 document, although the originals are in color print, looks something like this:

After finishing all that, they even have little alcove in the front lobby with a kind of 3-wheel bicycle with a bench for sitting and the wall behind it decorated in a kind of marriage motif, suitable for some on-the-fly marriage photos for the selfie-inclined.

BTW, I brought along my original U.S. divorce decree from years ago. But no one at the Amphur asked about it or cared. They were entirely satified with the Consulate-issued free to marry and past divorce affidavits.

Edited June 21, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK