Both as bad as each other?

[notmyself]

Like it doesnt really seem to matter if you vote republican or democrat in the US because you feel there is always a hidden force present pushing the buttons?

Much of the Democrat vote comes from individuals knowing that the leaders of the republican cult are all certifiable.

[Issangeorge]

Kikoman, I don't idolize Suthep, I think he should be arrested and thrown in jail, without bail as I think the deputy commerce minister (Nattiwut) should be also. So far Suthep has not advocated violence and as far as I know the main shopping centres have remained open. In 2010 the Red Shirts closed a few main shopping centres and their leaders like Nattiwut advocated burning Bangkok, which they tried. Suthep only ordered the army to go in after the Red Shirts agreed to end their protest and then after a call from Brunei changed their minds. They then started to throw grenades and stormed a hospital. They also had a large section of Bangkok barricaded off that non Red Shirts could not enter. They also stopped and searched vehicles, terrorizing the people in them. As much as I despise Suthep and think he should be in jail the protests today can't compare with the ones in 2010 and the fear Bangkokians felt. Unfortunately I see no solution to the problem. As long as Thaksin is around, rightly or wrongly the people of the North and North East will always support him and the people of Bangkok and the South will always despise him.

Sent from my i-mobile IQ X using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Ulic]

Both equally bad except the Reds share the wealth a little through the rice subsidy program, cheap health care and the

yellows want to end democracy. Still I would not take one over the other. Kind on like execution by hanging, firring squad,

guillotine. None are better options than the other.

[celso]

So I have to choose between Northern rich politicians, or Southern rich politicians. No thanks. Not my country, not my problem

[laobali]

When I last looked there were 33 replies, 16 votes, 8 for each. Funny how that's all about 50%.

[umbanda]

Politicians in ANY country runs for money and power and to fulfill a big ego.....not for the country wellness or its people, and always representing the interest of big business including the military, because without its support they never will achieve all that....or keep them in power.

[RichBKK]

The best middle ground would be a elected representative government of the majority of thai people (who are not rich, so that rules the democrats out by and large) free from the iron fist and interference of sino-thai modern day clan leaders/warlords/businessmen

But the chances of that are bob hope and no hope. The education system makes it impossible at this point. Too many are bred to follow and critical thought is frowned upon. Whoever shouts the loudest and all

Think it's years, generations away here from approaching an ideal state, of there is such a thing. Democracy is still young here and not widely understood by many. Far from perfect but there are worse places out there

Basically, neither of the above regarding democrats v PTP

Edited December 30, 2013 by RichBKK

[asiamaster]

notmyself, on 29 Dec 2013 - 00:37, said:

It doesnt matter who is better or worse.....it really doesnt matter......

It does to many.

Why?......Do foreigners vote in Thailand?

Perhaps they want their voice to be heard...

[shiok]

It seems that the problem with demos is that they were so sure to be so powerful that they didn't care at all to do what Taksin did for the poor, so they really deserve the shxt that happens now !

ah yes! taksin did alot for the poor..he robbed themin broad day light till today they have not received payment for rice they have sent to the government warehouse... what do u say abt that???

[holeyman1]

Not just in thailand, all countries exercise that kind if vote buying.

All parties involved will promise you

the world.

Vote for me, I will give or change this in your community.

Vote for me, I will give or change that in this community.

All these promises (wether it realizes or not is another issue altogether) uses tax payers monies.

Make an educated guess and pray tell whose money the incumbent is using?

[notmyself]

Not just in thailand, all countries exercise that kind if vote buying.

500 Baht put into your hand on the way to the polling station? What would be the daily wage on average, within the Thaksin stronghold?

[kikoman]

Everyone is aware that the country needs reform, still a short cut, without involving people throughout the country, carried out in a way that is seen as the trampling on their voting rights, will only lead the country to further bloodshed.

The movements rejection of the one-person one-vote basic principle of political equality is clear, Bangkok people should have more weight in the election, than non Bangkok people.

":muam maha prachachon" "The movement claims to be the great,great people"

What does the great, great people mean?

"More people or the more important people" Chris Baker ,Political Analyst

The muan maka prachachon is a capitalist movement that will lead to the tyranny of the minority"

"He insisted that only adhering to the framework of Electoral Democracy will lead the country out of deep-seated political conflict" Mr Kasian Tejapira, Thammasat Political Scientist stated,

"The rural masses was awaken and made aware of its political power and potency in an open political process over a decade ago" Anek Laothammatas (former Democrat Party member)

"The uneducated rural classes, be kept in check by the educated members of the Bangkok clans, who embraces democracy"

The Red-shirts need to look at what motivated the Bangkok protesters and the Bangkok protesters need to look at what motivated the Red-shirts "Poverty", Both sides need to unite to make poverty eradication a big issue in society, as long as the poor are eliminated from the decision making process unrest will remain just under the surface in the country . The present White colored working class of Bangkok will continually be at odds politically with the Grassroots classes including Farmers and blue-collared workers.

cheers

[benalibina]

notmyself, on 29 Dec 2013 - 00:37, said:

It doesnt matter who is better or worse.....it really doesnt matter......

It does to many.

Why?......Do foreigners vote in Thailand?

Perhaps they want their voice to be heard...

Haha.....same same but no different....by reading some threads lately.....let the thais sort it.....it really doesnt matter....still.

[Issangeorge]

I think the Red Shirts are as much against inequality in the justice, and education systems as poverty. I'm not exactly sure what poverty is. I live in a poor village, but everybody has a roof over their head, electricity, cloths on their back, food to eat. Most if not all have a television and refrigerator, and almost as many have a motorbike and almost everybody has access to a car or truck. They me be poor, but I don't think you could call it poverty and millions in Africa would consider them rich.

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[kikoman]

I think the Red Shirts are as much against inequality in the justice, and education systems as poverty. I'm not exactly sure what poverty is. I live in a poor village, but everybody has a roof over their head, electricity, cloths on their back, food to eat. Most if not all have a television and refrigerator, and almost as many have a motorbike and almost everybody has access to a car or truck. They me be poor, but I don't think you could call it poverty and millions in Africa would consider them rich.

Sent from my i-mobile IQ X using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

So you are not sure what poverty is?

According to 2000 United Nations report.

9.8 million people living in poverty in Thailand

5.8 million ultra poor

3.4 million almost poor

19 Million poor or 29.9% of the population, that are concentrated in the provinces along the border of the West, North and Northwest regions.

In The World Bank, 2011 Thailand overview

42,6 % in 1997 and 13,2 % in 2011 live in Poverty in Thailand!

"However, benefits of Thailand's economic success have not been shared equally, with some regions-particularly the North and Northeast-lagging behind the rest of the country in terms of poverty reduction, inequalities in terms of incomes and opportunities have been persistent. The Gini coefficient, a measurement of income inequality in Thailand,has been persistent at around 0.45 for the last two decades. Much of the inequalities are inter-regional with the North and the Northeast lagging behind other regions of the country".

These are a few facts I found on the internet, their are many more, if you in fact care to look!

Cheers

[Issangeorge]

The WBO describes poverty as being hungry, lacking shelter, not having access to school, not being able to read, and not being able to see a doctor if your sick. None of those things apply in my village, and yes we can thank Thaksin for the last one. It then goes on to say poverty is not having a job, fear for the future and living one day at a time. Well two out of three of those things could apply to my village. Most don't seem to have jobs, but considering Thailand has almost full employment, that is their choice. No one even thinks of the future, thus no fear of it, and everybody lives day to day, but it seems to be their choice to do that. If you go by the WBO's definition of poverty, I think you would find very little in Thailand, and per capital a lot more in the United States, and even Canada and probably a large portion of Europe.

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[GuestHouse]

According to 2000 United Nations report.

9.8 million people living in poverty in Thailand

5.8 million ultra poor

3.4 million almost poor

19 Million poor or 29.9% of the population, that are concentrated in the provinces along the border of the West, North and Northwest regions.

And the PTP have helped them how?

I know two families that have moved from tenant farmers to technically homeless, moving in with relatives when their tenancy was foreclosed by a landlord who has been very happy to take over rice production on land he was renting out.

The message that PTP policies are helping Thai people needs some close examination - hence perhaps the reason why the puppet PM so often does a runner when called to debate PTP policies.

[kikoman]

The WBO describes poverty as being hungry, lacking shelter, not having access to school, not being able to read, and not being able to see a doctor if your sick. None of those things apply in my village, and yes we can thank Thaksin for the last one. It then goes on to say poverty is not having a job, fear for the future and living one day at a time. Well two out of three of those things could apply to my village. Most don't seem to have jobs, but considering Thailand has almost full employment, that is their choice. No one even thinks of the future, thus no fear of it, and everybody lives day to day, but it seems to be their choice to do that. If you go by the WBO's definition of poverty, I think you would find very little in Thailand, and per capital a lot more in the United States, and even Canada and probably a large portion of Europe.

Sent from my i-mobile IQ X using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Have you ever stopped and asked yourself how poverty eradication was so successful since 2000 when poverty rates were 21% and improved to 8.5% IN 2007 and is currently at 7.75% in Thailand. Where infant mortality dropped dramatically in the same time frame, also the great improvement in maternal health.

The populists program the 30 baht heath insurance coverage for all citizen's in Thailand in 2001, which provided Improved Heath care services that lowered infant mortality rates 32 per 1000 in 1990 to 14 per 1000 in 2008 and currently below 5%/1000 by mandatory pre-natal care, improved universal child care and vaccinations.

Also the increase of the minimum wage to 300-350 baht per day, and the the government loans to villages, the rice price increase per ton, many of the programs that Suthep and the Democrats are saying are wasteful programs. Who have hinted at terminating these great programs that have eradicated a lot of poverty in Thailand!

Extreme poverty are people that live off $1.25 food expenditure daily and those family that spend over 60 % of their income on food. Add up that amount by 30.4 average days in a month to see what is considered poverty!

Look up UNPD article on Eradicate extreme hunger and poverty. UNDP's work in Thailand!

Cheers

[GuestHouse]

Have you ever stopped and asked yourself how poverty eradication was so successful since 2000 when poverty rates were 21% and improved to 8.5% IN 2007 and is currently at 7.75% in Thailand. Where infant mortality dropped dramatically in the same time frame, also the great improvement in maternal health.

I have actually.

What is amazing is poverty rates across the globe have fallen over the same period - excluding war zones the rate of poverty reduction in Thailand is within the middle range of poverty reduction elsewhere.

This is either an amazing impact of Thai economic policies, bringing about global poverty reduction, or a impact of global economic changes on Thailand.

Oddly the period from 2000 is also a period of rapid global productivity increases, wealth generation and movement of industry/services from the mature western economies into the developing world.

Before we make black and white claims about what has brought about a reduction in poverty we ought to examine the broad spectrum of influences.

The World Bank (still the most reputable source of poverty data) is making the alarming claim that corruption is the biggest cause of poverty in the developing world and remains the biggest threat the the advances in poverty reduction - Thailand does not fair well on the corruption front.

Corruption is oddly the common theme amongst anti government protestors - not the Thai elite (the figure head of which today received a respect paying visit from the PM Yingluck) but ordinary middle class Thais who form the backbone of the anti government protestors - many northerners and north easterners by birth.

[kikoman]

The subject is Thailand, many try to include other variables , to try to subtract from the truth of what has been behind eradication of poverty in Thailand for the last 13 years.

As Issangeorge said poverty is gauged by the variables, of access to medical care, Education, income, opportunities among some he mentioned. In that time (2000 to the present) of rapid eradication of poverty in Thailand was the passing of the 30 Baht medical issuance plan, the raise in the minimum wage, the lowering of infant mortality, pre-natal care, along with vaccination programs and the rice subsidy programs. Whether you are pro government or pro-protesters, you can not hide the facts of all the good the populist programs resulted in the lowing of poverty levels in Thailand.

Issangeorge stated that the protesters were the ordinary middle class which is not true, the majority of the protesters are those that back the principles of the Democrat party, the rich, white collar workers pitted against the Grass roots movement made up of the rural population, farmers, blue-collar workers and the poor.

As I mentioned in my response to his post ​That his opinion was not that of the majority of people of the Issan as none of the provinces out side of eight Southern provinces of the Democrat's stronghold in the south, supported the protesters rejection of the election on February 2, 2014, not a single province in the Issan supported the Protester's!

Cheers

[Issangeorge]

Kikoman, these anti poverty measures you are talking about, who is paying for them, and how long are they going to pay for them?

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[kikoman]

Thailand is paying for them as a country should with equality of sharing Thailand's riches with all of her citizens, not only the rich as they have done in the past.

How long should they pay them, it should become a part of the national Thai budget, And the government should fund these programs as long as they are needed, for ever if necessary!

Cheers

Edited December 31, 2013 by kikoman

[GuestHouse]

Issangeorge stated that the protesters were the ordinary middle class which is not true, the majority of the protesters are those that back the principles of the Democrat party, the rich, white collar workers pitted against the Grass roots movement made up of the rural population, farmers, blue-collar workers and the poor.

If you bother to listen to what the individual protesters are saying, read the Facebook groups they've set up, talk to them individually, read the reports in the press of individual prospers you'll discover they are indeed ordinary middle class people who WANT CHANGE.

They don't want things to continue as they are, they don't want the same corruption to continue, they don't want the electoral system to be used as a tool to obtain absolute control.

But I see their words do not match the picture you want to paint - You'll stick to the rabid claims that protesters are all working in unison to defeat democracy and perpetuate the power of the elite.

To remind you once again, the figure head of the hated elite is the head of the Privy Council - a man the Puppet PM visited this week to pay his respects.

She might have better visited 'political prisoners' who are left rotting in jail as pawns in the game to get her brother off his conviction for corruption and abuse of power.

Abuse which included unprecedented attacks on that principal requirement of democracy - a free press.

[kikoman]

There are those individuals that stick to their dreams and hallucination that the protesters are ordinary middle class people as they need readers to identify with that so they can claim a peoples protest (The common people of Thailand).

The local B.P. newspaper identified the groups as the White-collared urban middle class pitted against the Grass-roots classes including rural farmers and blue-collared workers.

The Global Post, America's world news site.

States: anti government demonstrators from the urban middle and upper classes vs. Government supporters Rural voters!

Wikipedia states: Urban elite, white collared middle class pitted against rural Thais and Urban poor!

The Daily Star www.thedailystar.net

states: Bangkok-based elite against rural and poor supporters of Yingluck,

The NY times (nytimes.com/top/news/international/.../Thailand/

States:made up of many rich and powerful people

"The rural electorate was awaken and made aware of its political power and potency in an open political process over a decade ago!"

The protest movements rejection of the (one-person one-vote) basic principle of political equality is clear. Bangkok people should have more weight in the elections then non-Bangkok people.

Cheers.

[Issangeorge]

Kikoman, you keep harping on one man one vote. The US does not have this system. California and Alaska and all the other states each have two senators and yet their populations vary immensely. The founding fathers of the United States set this system up so larger more populous States or regions couldn't over power the smaller states or regions. I think the protesters just want to set up something similar.

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[nidieunimaitre]

Look at it this way.

There have been 3 reincarnations of the TRT party and of the previous 2 a total of 220 politicians have been banned for electoral fraud (corruption).

It looks likely that 312 of the present lot will also be banned also for their role in the illegal way they went about passing bills.

That is without those who have been prosecuted and found guilty of other charges or are presently on bail awaiting charges being heard.

Now tell me.

In the long life of the Democrat party how many have been banned, charged and found guilty or are at present on bail ?

You can if you like even include Abhisit and Suthep on the BS murder charges.

Once you have compiled those numbers and compared them then you will have your answer.

Perhaps it would be usefull to first ask who appointed the judges...

[nidieunimaitre]

Kikoman, you keep harping on one man one vote. The US does not have this system. California and Alaska and all the other states each have two senators and yet their populations vary immensely. The founding fathers of the United States set this system up so larger more populous States or regions couldn't over power the smaller states or regions. I think the protesters just want to set up something similar.

Sent from my i-mobile IQ X using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

So you pretend to be able to think what Suthep thinks?

I don't think so.....

[kikoman]

Kikoman, you keep harping on one man one vote. The US does not have this system. California and Alaska and all the other states each have two senators and yet their populations vary immensely. The founding fathers of the United States set this system up so larger more populous States or regions couldn't over power the smaller states or regions. I think the protesters just want to set up something similar.

Sent from my i-mobile IQ X using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

You picked the wrong political system to try to justify what Suthep and the Democrats are doing, What they are attempting is the overthrow of the elected government, they would have already been dispatched by the U.S, security forces.

Thailand and the U.S. have a house and senate, in the US senate each state is represented by 2 senators, (Equal representation of the state) in the House its members are based on the population of the states, (the more population you have the more voting power you have) All legislative branch members are elected, unlike Thailand that has Senators appointed.

In the U.S. the majority of the public vote "does not" elect the president, he is elected by the majority of the votes of the "Electoral College" who's vote elects the president. Because the founding fathers did not want to let the "uneducated" voters too, now that the guarantee is no longer needed, the powers that be refuse to return that power to the people.

If you think "corruption does not happen in the US you are sadly mistaken, in the last US election President Obama collected and spent I Billion, 250 million dollars on his campaign for President and Romney spent 1 Billion and 350 million on his losing campaign. Once elected you have a lot of special interest groups to repay!

You may not agree, but all democracies use the "One person One Vote" concept. a dictator simply takes power, through the barrel of a gun!

Cheers