Thai PM calls for peaceful end to political crisis

[englishoak]

Just shows how much you missed my point about bits of paper being worthless, you are talking about academia im talking about real world application of knowledge and getting really educated. uhhhh Duh While all the rest are still trying to show off what uni a bit of paper comes from, Thaksin was busy implementing ideas very different to the norm that dragged Thailand forward into the present. That is indisputable. Thaksin blindsided everyone by using new and modern business models. it has f all to do with bits of paper it is all to do with who knows who and contacts or youd better have a very drastic and new idea to throw in, couple both together and you make a huge impact,They are clearly still doing so and the ammart are still playing catch up, this is good for the normal Thai as itll force everyone to change eventually like it or not.

Thaksin realised he needed the previously ignored electorate, until the rest of the country gets that simple understanding,which even now most protesting seem to be ignoring nothing will change.

The paper is worthless, yet the family has a habit of obtaining it from rather obscure, if not dubious, foreign universities?

One of Thaksin's ideas very different to the norm was a monopoly on mobile phones. Another was a big loan to Myanmar so they could buy out-dated comms equipment from Shin Corp. Like most of his ideas, it slowed Thailand's advance while enriching himself. His business models, especially in regard to politics, are notorious for corruption and shafting his partners.

If everybody in Thailand is going to change to be more like Thaksin, I'm moving. Before you wish me bon voyage, understand that I will be here for a while yet rebutting claims that this thief is some sort of saint or business genius.

Your missing the point entirely, the piece of paper is irrelevent other than to say you have a degree etc after that its application Thaksin changed the game by including the forgotten and using his business savvy in politics. Makes me laugh that people cant even admit it.

Convince the rural masses they have a value is all that needs to be done....all it takes is a shift in thinking, is that so hard to do ? apparently Suthep has missed the point as well

[JRSoul]

Just shows how much you missed my point about bits of paper being worthless, you are talking about academia im talking about real world application of knowledge and getting really educated. uhhhh Duh While all the rest are still trying to show off what uni a bit of paper comes from, Thaksin was busy implementing ideas very different to the norm that dragged Thailand forward into the present. That is indisputable. Thaksin blindsided everyone by using new and modern business models. it has f all to do with bits of paper it is all to do with who knows who and contacts or youd better have a very drastic and new idea to throw in, couple both together and you make a huge impact,They are clearly still doing so and the ammart are still playing catch up, this is good for the normal Thai as itll force everyone to change eventually like it or not.

Thaksin realised he needed the previously ignored electorate, until the rest of the country gets that simple understanding,which even now most protesting seem to be ignoring nothing will change.

The paper is worthless, yet the family has a habit of obtaining it from rather obscure, if not dubious, foreign universities?

One of Thaksin's ideas very different to the norm was a monopoly on mobile phones. Another was a big loan to Myanmar so they could buy out-dated comms equipment from Shin Corp. Like most of his ideas, it slowed Thailand's advance while enriching himself. His business models, especially in regard to politics, are notorious for corruption and shafting his partners.

If everybody in Thailand is going to change to be more like Thaksin, I'm moving. Before you wish me bon voyage, understand that I will be here for a while yet rebutting claims that this thief is some sort of saint or business genius.

Your missing the point entirely, the piece of paper is irrelevent other than to say you have a degree etc after that its application Thaksin changed the game by including the forgotten and using his business savvy in politics. Makes me laugh that people cant even admit it.

Convince the rural masses they have a value is all that needs to be done....all it takes is a shift in thinking, is that so hard to do ? apparently Suthep has missed the point as well

You seem very keen NOT to discuss his corrupt business and political practises. Why is that?

[Maha Sarakham Marty]

I think She is playing exactly the hand shes advised to, I also think that whatever people like to think about the Shins they are not stupid and are very well educated compared to a lot of the handmedown ammarts the contrast is striking.

Do you have an example of these less educated handmedown ammart to compare the Shins with?

In fact all 3 of Thaksin's children have had 'problems' with their education, either allegations of cheating or privilege

1.Oak- failed at Thammasart, moved to Ramkhamheang where he was found to be in possession of a piece of paper in his top pocket in the final exam.

2.Pinthongta- started at Kasetsart in a faculty that didn't require a university entrance exam score but then she switched to a faculty that does. She then failed the year and switched to another faculty- Political Science with a new ID number( I've never head of students being given a new ID number)

3.Paethongtan benefited from 'relaxed' rules to gain entry to a faculty at Chula

And of course there was the notorious case of the entrance exam papers being 'inspected' (leaked) the day before the exam.

So, I'm sorry Engliskoak( I do hope you haven't taken that name because of Thaksin's son, Oak ) if so I recommend changing it to a tree of high value in Thailand- payung (rosewood) , for in academic circles in Thailand the Shinawat family are not noted for academic excellence!

Just shows how much you missed my point about bits of paper being worthless, you are talking about academia im talking about real world application of knowledge and getting really educated. uhhhh Duh

Hey, brainiac, the "duh" reason your point was "missed" on this poster was because you wrote the obfuscating follow-up an hour and a half AFTER the above reply was made.

DUH!

Additionally, Siripon's above reply was a much more direct response to your initial claim than the muddled reply you made later as a follow-up.

[englishoak]

oops did I hit a nerve ?

[JRSoul]

oops did I hit a nerve ?

Not mine. Ready to discuss the difference between savvy and criminal yet?

[englishoak]

oops did I hit a nerve ?

Not mine. Ready to discuss the difference between savvy and criminal yet?

What would be the point ? The two go together now whereas before it was just criminal corruption and no savvy before, thats why others are pissed now they got passed over. Look pretty stupid too with the way they are trying to change things... how did Suthep and co manage to make the current gov look so resistant to using force and look at least to the outside world composed ? if was imploding all on its own and now dear leader has gone and turned a peoples protest into a farce and power play ... really behind the curve

[Tim1980]

The solution is very simple! Resign!!

then what? Hand pick you as PM? Or let Suthep dictate & let Thais be further put to slavery?

[darren84310]

well just go away along with rest of your evil clan hardly wanting peace when they put up all clan members as MP's in party list and stuff every important post with their own family members and cronies

I just hope whole rotten evil lot would sink into slime they came from

Wow, that was a really constructive and useful comment.

Let's see, Puea Thai won the last elections, meaning that most Thais still wanted this government.

Just because a minority who has lost elections for the past 23 years, well before Thaksin ever came to power, wants to overthrow an elected government, doesn't mean that the whole country has to follow it.

My suggestion, go to the polls if you want to change something. It's what grown ups in civilized countries do.

Civilised countries don't have a problem with mass vote buying by a murderous billionaire.

[aimbc]

It's a very impressive list, and I'm sure the reforms would be beneficial. But Thailand already has laws - lots of them. The problem is that these laws are consistently ignored by whole classes of people - politicians, rich businessmen and their families, senior government officials, senior military and police officers - who, provided they have the right connections or enough money, are effectively untouchable. It's the law of gangsters. So you can institute as many new rules as you like, but unless the legal system grows some teeth, your reforms are just more clutter in the statute book.

Given that he is using government policy to blatantly benefit himself, do you not see the need for reform to correct this situation?

Sure - absolutely. But what's being proposed isn't reform. It's the dismantling of the Thai constitution and the shelving of one man one vote democracy. And the tactics being used to pursue these goals are deliberately designed to plunge the whole country into ungovernable anarchy. Sorry, that's nonsense. If Suthep believes that there are grounds for criminal charges to be brought against the government then he should be petitioning the courts to do their job. But he's not. He's looking to instigate a coup d'etat against an elected government.

And that so many posters on these boards apparently support him in his endeavour would suggest that it's not just Thailand that has a problem with its education system.

I thought about that too, About how DSI can not even be used to force the government to divulge information about the rice scheme. Then I realized, that they are part of the Police and it's controlled by Thaksin. Don't take Thais are not smart. It is why the citizens recognized that they need to take control of their government again. It is clear that even though the government is doing such a bad job, there is no mechanism to stop them from harming the country.

I give credit to Thaksin for understanding democracy and picking at its weaknesses so that he can benefit from it. Because the law are weak. Some of the reform I would like to see is:

• Lifetime ban from all government position for all government officials (includes PM, Senate, Police....)caught in corruption and election fraud, voter intimidation,vote buying, abuse of power and criminal acts.
• If public policies is to be used as part of a election campaign, it must be disclosed on how it will be executed including cost and benefits of the policies.
• All government projects must be planned out and presented to the public in full disclosure. And it must be put up for debate for it's merit.
• Project must have set phases and limits and if it goes over, then it must stop for further review.
• Government must make public all accounting records of all government contracts and project. And must provide it within a certain period of time.
• Decentralization of the police force.
• All government official are accountable for their actions.

These are just some thoughts. All the details can be ironed out later. I wonder if the government list would look like mine.

You are right about having teeth on the grounds of enforcing the law. I think Thais need to care for democracy. I think people don't care that much because they adopted a system that did not come out of necessity. They probably adopted, because the world was moving away from monarchy rule. I don't have all the facts though. I don't think Thailand ever wants to loose its monarchy. But in US, everyone is taught about the Revolution and freedom from tyranny. And how the founding father fought for independence. So they all understand what is at stake. But in Thailand....no.

But I think lifetime ban, is not on the book and it will be the first step in real reform. It will make people think about corruption. Have to make them accountable for their actions. They will go through a lot of growing pains for sure. And hopefully it will be a bloodless one. Lets pray!

[retsdon]

You are right about having teeth on the grounds of enforcing the law. I think Thais need to care for democracy. I think people don't care that much because they adopted a system that did not come out of necessity. They probably adopted, because the world was moving away from monarchy rule. I don't have all the facts though. I don't think Thailand ever wants to loose its monarchy. But in US, everyone is taught about the Revolution and freedom from tyranny. And how the founding father fought for independence. So they all understand what is at stake. But in Thailand....no.

But I think lifetime ban, is not on the book and it will be the first step in real reform. It will make people think about corruption. Have to make them accountable for their actions. They will go through a lot of growing pains for sure. And hopefully it will be a bloodless one. Lets pray!

I don't really think it's about caring for democracy per se. It's about demanding adherence to the law. Of course, the law is often inconvenient, so everybody wants to bend laws that don't suit them. That's not a Thai phenomenon btw, it's everywhere. But in what I would call stable countries, you can't get away with it (at least not much) because breaking the law is socially unacceptable. People simply won't stand for it. That's not the case in Thailand. In Thailand, everybody is happy to give the traffic cop 100baht rather than appear in court. Everybody is happy to slip a couple of notes in an envelope to ease transfer documents or whatever at the government office. And nobody is going to shun you for it, or report you for malfeasance. I remember having a conversation with some Thai people about civil service pay (police especially), and saying that they should be paid more - and was told that if they were too well paid, you wouldn't be able to bribe them!

Of course, on the face of it - where's the harm? The problem though is that you end up with a culture of immunity for people who have enough influence and money to buy everyone they want to. And because everyone at every level of society is accepting of law-breaking on a greater or lesser scale, there is no social opprobrium attached to it. So people like Chalerm can hold political office when, in any law abiding society, his very presence on a party list would make that party completely unelectable even if he'd managed to avoid prison. Decent supporters of his party would be outraged by his candidacy would vote against their own party.

Which brings me to our posts about unity. All societies have things in common which give them social cohesion. I think what unites successful democracies isn't unity of political ideas, or unity of any particular social system, it's a common acceptance that the laws of the land must be applied equally to everyone - even themselves. Of course, at times that's inconvenient, but it's the only way to run a just and harmonious society.

[bigbamboo]

I think She is playing exactly the hand shes advised to, I also think that whatever people like to think about the Shins they are not stupid and are very well educated compared to a lot of the handmedown ammarts the contrast is striking.

Do you have an example of these less educated handmedown ammart to compare the Shins with?

In fact all 3 of Thaksin's children have had 'problems' with their education, either allegations of cheating or privilege

1.Oak- failed at Thammasart, moved to Ramkhamheang where he was found to be in possession of a piece of paper in his top pocket in the final exam.

2.Pinthongta- started at Kasetsart in a faculty that didn't require a university entrance exam score but then she switched to a faculty that does. She then failed the year and switched to another faculty- Political Science with a new ID number( I've never head of students being given a new ID number)

3.Paethongtan benefited from 'relaxed' rules to gain entry to a faculty at Chula

And of course there was the notorious case of the entrance exam papers being 'inspected' (leaked) the day before the exam.

So, I'm sorry Engliskoak( I do hope you haven't taken that name because of Thaksin's son, Oak ) if so I recommend changing it to a tree of high value in Thailand- payung (rosewood) , for in academic circles in Thailand the Shinawat family are not noted for academic excellence!

Just shows how much you missed my point about bits of paper being worthless, you are talking about academia im talking about real world application of knowledge and getting really educated. uhhhh Duh While all the rest are still trying to show off what uni a bit of paper comes from, Thaksin was busy implementing ideas very different to the norm that dragged Thailand forward into the present. That is indisputable. Thaksin blindsided everyone by using new and modern business models. it has f all to do with bits of paper it is all to do with who knows who and contacts or youd better have a very drastic and new idea to throw in, couple both together and you make a huge impact,They are clearly still doing so and the ammart are still playing catch up, this is good for the normal Thai as itll force everyone to change eventually like it or not.

Thaksin realised he needed the previously ignored electorate, until the rest of the country gets that simple understanding,which even now most protesting seem to be ignoring nothing will change.

Love your rugby metaphor about Thaksin 'blindsiding' everyone with his alleged business acumen. I guess his sudden elevation to billionaire status after the 1997 crash was a stroke of genius with some clever inside moves.

And then of course in the last election when he managed to sell half the country the most amazing dummy.

.

Edited January 2, 2014 by bigbamboo

[Tim1980]

I think She is playing exactly the hand shes advised to, I also think that whatever people like to think about the Shins they are not stupid and are very well educated compared to a lot of the handmedown ammarts the contrast is striking.

Do you have an example of these less educated handmedown ammart to compare the Shins with?

In fact all 3 of Thaksin's children have had 'problems' with their education, either allegations of cheating or privilege

1.Oak- failed at Thammasart, moved to Ramkhamheang where he was found to be in possession of a piece of paper in his top pocket in the final exam.

2.Pinthongta- started at Kasetsart in a faculty that didn't require a university entrance exam score but then she switched to a faculty that does. She then failed the year and switched to another faculty- Political Science with a new ID number( I've never head of students being given a new ID number)

3.Paethongtan benefited from 'relaxed' rules to gain entry to a faculty at Chula

And of course there was the notorious case of the entrance exam papers being 'inspected' (leaked) the day before the exam.

So, I'm sorry Engliskoak( I do hope you haven't taken that name because of Thaksin's son, Oak ) if so I recommend changing it to a tree of high value in Thailand- payung (rosewood) , for in academic circles in Thailand the Shinawat family are not noted for academic excellence!

Just shows how much you missed my point about bits of paper being worthless, you are talking about academia im talking about real world application of knowledge and getting really educated. uhhhh Duh While all the rest are still trying to show off what uni a bit of paper comes from, Thaksin was busy implementing ideas very different to the norm that dragged Thailand forward into the present. That is indisputable. Thaksin blindsided everyone by using new and modern business models. it has f all to do with bits of paper it is all to do with who knows who and contacts or youd better have a very drastic and new idea to throw in, couple both together and you make a huge impact,They are clearly still doing so and the ammart are still playing catch up, this is good for the normal Thai as itll force everyone to change eventually like it or not.

Thaksin realised he needed the previously ignored electorate, until the rest of the country gets that simple understanding,which even now most protesting seem to be ignoring nothing will change.

Love your rugby metaphor about Thaksin 'blindsiding' everyone with his alleged business acumen. I guess his sudden elevation to billionaire status after the 1997 crash was a stroke of genius with some clever inside moves.

And then of course in the last election when he managed to sell half the country the most amazing dummy.

.

so you envy him because he's a billionaire

[oldthaihand99]

"You want to return and convicted criminal, presumably whitewashing his conviction and nullifying outstanding charges, into a position that he resigned from, took back illegally, and had to be removed from?"

"Why do you think the Yingluck government's attempted whitewash amnesty bill caused so much conflict? (Clue, it has to do with the person you think is the rightful PM)."

TS is the Robin Hood of Siam.

Robin Hood was a righteous so-called "criminal".

The corrupt wicked legal systems of their times found them guilty of criminal wrong doing.

So what? This is something they both wear as a badge of honor!

TS has been leading Thailand the last few years through his sister YLS. Righteously so.

But carry on with the shallow remarks, calling Robin Hood a "criminal".

I will henceforth refer to him by his real name! Robin Hood.

Robin Hood didn't take from the rich and keep it for himself.

Robin Hood took from the rich & gave to the poor. Just like TS. Therefore the wealthy middle class BKKians oppose him & the poor N Thais love him.

Robin Hood was an outlaw, a righteous criminal of his time. Likewise TS.

Robin Hood may have kept plenty of the stolen loot to feed his men, buy weapons, pay off bribes, increase his wealth with investments, etc. Just like TS.

[JRSoul]

Robin Hood took from the rich & gave to the poor. Just like TS. Therefore the wealthy middle class BKKians oppose him & the poor N Thais love him.

Robin Hood was an outlaw, a righteous criminal of his time. Likewise TS.

Robin Hood may have kept plenty of the stolen loot to feed his men, buy weapons, pay off bribes, increase his wealth with investments, etc. Just like TS.

I refer you to my post #165. Robin hood was thief, who like Thaksin, used the villagers political ignorance to conceal his crimes, while feeding them propaganda. Your fairy tale comparison is so simplistic it is hardly amazing that you accept Thaksin's claims of benevolence.

[oldthaihand99]

Robin Hood took from the rich & gave to the poor. Just like TS. Therefore the wealthy middle class BKKians oppose him & the poor N Thais love him.

Robin Hood was an outlaw, a righteous criminal of his time. Likewise TS.

Robin Hood may have kept plenty of the stolen loot to feed his men, buy weapons, pay off bribes, increase his wealth with investments, etc. Just like TS.

I refer you to my post #165. Robin hood was thief, who like Thaksin, used the villagers political ignorance to conceal his crimes, while feeding them propaganda. Your fairy tale comparison is so simplistic it is hardly amazing that you accept Thaksin's claims of benevolence.

This isn't the impression of Robin Hood i've seen in several film versions of the man where he is always considered a hero of & by "the people".

[JRSoul]

Robin Hood took from the rich & gave to the poor. Just like TS. Therefore the wealthy middle class BKKians oppose him & the poor N Thais love him.

Robin Hood was an outlaw, a righteous criminal of his time. Likewise TS.

Robin Hood may have kept plenty of the stolen loot to feed his men, buy weapons, pay off bribes, increase his wealth with investments, etc. Just like TS.

I refer you to my post #165. Robin hood was thief, who like Thaksin, used the villagers political ignorance to conceal his crimes, while feeding them propaganda. Your fairy tale comparison is so simplistic it is hardly amazing that you accept Thaksin's claims of benevolence.

This isn't the impression of Robin Hood i've seen in several film versions of the man where he is always considered a hero of & by "the people".

You have a point. Popular fiction as portrayed in films, like populist policies, are both aimed at the shallow end of the gene pool.

[Siripon]

I think She is playing exactly the hand shes advised to, I also think that whatever people like to think about the Shins they are not stupid and are very well educated compared to a lot of the handmedown ammarts the contrast is striking.

Do you have an example of these less educated handmedown ammart to compare the Shins with?

In fact all 3 of Thaksin's children have had 'problems' with their education, either allegations of cheating or privilege

1.Oak- failed at Thammasart, moved to Ramkhamheang where he was found to be in possession of a piece of paper in his top pocket in the final exam.

2.Pinthongta- started at Kasetsart in a faculty that didn't require a university entrance exam score but then she switched to a faculty that does. She then failed the year and switched to another faculty- Political Science with a new ID number( I've never head of students being given a new ID number)

3.Paethongtan benefited from 'relaxed' rules to gain entry to a faculty at Chula

And of course there was the notorious case of the entrance exam papers being 'inspected' (leaked) the day before the exam.

So, I'm sorry Engliskoak( I do hope you haven't taken that name because of Thaksin's son, Oak ) if so I recommend changing it to a tree of high value in Thailand- payung (rosewood) , for in academic circles in Thailand the Shinawat family are not noted for academic excellence!

Just shows how much you missed my point about bits of paper being worthless, you are talking about academia im talking about real world application of knowledge and getting really educated. uhhhh Duh While all the rest are still trying to show off what uni a bit of paper comes from, Thaksin was busy implementing ideas very different to the norm that dragged Thailand forward into the present. That is indisputable. Thaksin blindsided everyone by using new and modern business models. it has f all to do with bits of paper it is all to do with who knows who and contacts or youd better have a very drastic and new idea to throw in, couple both together and you make a huge impact,They are clearly still doing so and the ammart are still playing catch up, this is good for the normal Thai as itll force everyone to change eventually like it or not.

Thaksin realised he needed the previously ignored electorate, until the rest of the country gets that simple understanding,which even now most protesting seem to be ignoring nothing will change.

When you said the 'Shins', I assumed you were referring to his offspring, now I see you are only talking about the man himself.

When Thaksin was introduced to politics by Chamlong, many wondered how an ascetic could recommend a high flying businessman to take over his party. At that time Thaksin seemed like a breath of fresh air, not one of the bureaucracy, he had many ideas, 'thinking outside the box'- new politics many thought, and so they voted for him.

Sadly it wasn't to be- Thaksin soon bought up every MP from Chavalit's NAP, ( approx 80 old style MPs) to everyone's dismay -' build up a party of the new generation, take time, build the party on roots of decency, honesty, ability- not the old style of patronage' was what his middle class supporters urged, but he ignored it.

It was soon apparent that all Thaksin wanted was power, and any short cut would do. I remember him sketching out a plan about political power- he compared it to business- you offered a product the majority of the public couldn't resist,( the populist policies- maybe you lost money at first, (actually not you, but the tax payer) but soon your rivals would fall by the wayside as your product was irresistible and then you could 'pick them off'- as he did with all the small parties- 'join me, listen to me, or be condemned to the wilderness- the opposition'-was his message to Banharn, Suwat, Sanoh, etc. And so the local barons bowed down to him, from a monopoly in the telecom sector he turned to domination in politics.

Only the Democrats could oppose him.

Undoubtedly he was the first to design policies to appeal to the majority, although they have turned out to be short term and in fact damaging to the country, ie the rice mortgage policy, but for that breakthrough he deserves credit,

However, what have the working class gained? a minimum wage of 300 baht- good.

The rice mortgage scheme- useless for the poor.

Education- nothing

Local democracy, decentralization- nothing

anti corruption- nothing

Now, the red shirt leaders are angry at seeing their comfortable lives upended, over the last 2 years they have enjoyed being the new elite without challenge.

Let's see real reform ideas proposed and thrashed out over by all sides- as Suthep said -'let's talk red shirts, just leave your corrupt leaders out of it'.