Are you an Atheist/Believer?

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

I received the following after booking my flight at least now I know who to blame if there is a problem.

***IMPORTANT :**

Although your tickets and seats are confirmed, schedule changes by the airline,

weather patterns and other acts of God may change your tickets;

Insurance companies use the same term when they don't want to pay up and just for good measure and in the event that you might be a french atheist they include Force majeure.

[samran]

What's the saying? No atheists in a foxhole? Something like that.

[thailiketoo]

What's the saying? No atheists in a foxhole? Something like that.

Posted by thailiketoo on 2014-01-07 15:50:05 in General topics

My grandmother told me with a smug look as I shipped out to Vietnam that there were no atheists in foxholes. So a few weeks later there I was with Lek in a foxhole. I asked her, Lek are you a Christian?" She said, "I'm a Buddhist and the Buddha died 500 years before Christ so how could I be a Christian?" So much for grannies ideas.

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

What's the saying? No atheists in a foxhole? Something like that.

Posted by thailiketoo on 2014-01-07 15:50:05 in General topics

My grandmother told me with a smug look as I shipped out to Vietnam that there were no atheists in foxholes. So a few weeks later there I was with Lek in a foxhole. I asked her, Lek are you a Christian?" She said, "I'm a Buddhist and the Buddha died 500 years before Christ so how could I be a Christian?" So much for grannies ideas.

I like the logic, rather like: If Jesus really was a Jew how come his folks gave him a Mexican name ?

[sirineou]

What's the saying? No atheists in a foxhole? Something like that.

Yes because while christians are busy praying, atheists get the heck out of there.

[sirineou]

What's the saying? No atheists in a foxhole? Something like that.

Posted by thailiketoo on 2014-01-07 15:50:05 in General topics

My grandmother told me with a smug look as I shipped out to Vietnam that there were no atheists in foxholes. So a few weeks later there I was with Lek in a foxhole. I asked her, Lek are you a Christian?" She said, "I'm a Buddhist and the Buddha died 500 years before Christ so how could I be a Christian?" So much for grannies ideas.

Sorry it must be me but I don't get it.

Because the Buddha died 500 years before Christ Lek could not be a christian? and what that has to do with Atheists and foxholes?

[thailiketoo]

What's the saying? No atheists in a foxhole? Something like that.

Posted by thailiketoo on 2014-01-07 15:50:05 in General topics

My grandmother told me with a smug look as I shipped out to Vietnam that there were no atheists in foxholes. So a few weeks later there I was with Lek in a foxhole. I asked her, Lek are you a Christian?" She said, "I'm a Buddhist and the Buddha died 500 years before Christ so how could I be a Christian?" So much for grannies ideas.

Sorry it must be me but I don't get it.

Because the Buddha died 500 years before Christ Lek could not be a christian? and what that has to do with Atheists and foxholes?

Buddhists are atheists and so was Lek.

[alexviseu]

No those are 5 definitions. The italicized words are the colloquial usage (correct) but they follow the definitions which are not italicized. and 3 out of 5 of the definitions begin with the word believe. The source is dictionary.com if you want to see it again. Your fear/train theory is nonsense, because the sentence about John would not be the definition of the term.

Once again the word faith has at least 5 definitions, Someone can have faith in a theory without that being religious. Try to keep up with the context.

If I cracked an egg every morning for 5 years and every time there was only one yolk and I had no other information about eggs. would I have proof that eggs always contain only one yolk? Or would I just believe, have faith, in something that isn't true. (same same, falling through the floor). you can't have proof about a thing that isn't true.

Gravity and relativity, pretty hard to split those two up. But yes they are important to my understanding of the universe and how things work.

It is narural that a definition of faith to use the word belief as ut is a certain type of belief. I would also expect to see the word "animal" in the definition of dog or cat. That does not mean that dog and animal are interchangeable. Hipefully this is a better example.

On your egg example you would be justified in believing that and therefore require no faith. I would add that as far as pragmatism is concerned you could also claim knowledge until the assertion is challenged.

[sirineou]

What's the saying? No atheists in a foxhole? Something like that.

Posted by thailiketoo on 2014-01-07 15:50:05 in General topics

My grandmother told me with a smug look as I shipped out to Vietnam that there were no atheists in foxholes. So a few weeks later there I was with Lek in a foxhole. I asked her, Lek are you a Christian?" She said, "I'm a Buddhist and the Buddha died 500 years before Christ so how could I be a Christian?" So much for grannies ideas.

Sorry it must be me but I don't get it.

Because the Buddha died 500 years before Christ Lek could not be a christian? and what that has to do with Atheists and foxholes?

Buddhists are atheists and so was Lek.

wait wait, we need to talk about Lek a little more

I get that she replied that she is a Buddhist , and I understand that Buddhist are atheists.

what I don't understand is why she had to be a Buddhist, she could had being a Christian,

the fact that The Buddha died 500 years ago dos not preclude her from being a christian

Sorry I still dont get it

Edited January 9, 2014 by sirineou

[thailiketoo]

I get that she replied that she is a Buddhist , and I understand that Buddhist are atheists.

what I don't understand is why she had to be a Buddhist, she could had being a Christian,

the fact that The Buddha died 500 years ago dos not preclude her from being a christian

Sorry I still dont get it

She would be what her ancestors were (in her mind) and since Buddha got their first, that is what she and her family were. Christianity was not there to compete. Remember this was Leki in a foxhole, not a long discussion on religion. So that made two atheists in the foxhole. Me and Lek.

[nidieunimaitre]

What's the saying? No atheists in a foxhole? Something like that.

Good morning!

Perhaps read the tread before you post? We have been through that!

[samran]

What's the saying? No atheists in a foxhole? Something like that.

Good morning!

Perhaps read the tread before you post? We have been through that!

No, sorry. Didn't look at the bottom of my shoe before I posted. It's all squiggles and circles to me. Should I look at the tea leaves as well?

[sirineou]

I get that she replied that she is a Buddhist , and I understand that Buddhist are atheists.

what I don't understand is why she had to be a Bud dhist, she could had being a Christian,

the fact that The Buddha died 500 years ago dos not preclude her from being a christian

Sorry I still dont get it

She would be what her ancestors were (in her mind) and since Buddha got their first, that is what she and her family were. Christianity was not there to compete. Remember this was Leki in a foxhole, not a long discussion on religion. So that made two atheists in the foxhole. Me and Lek.

Yea... well, you shouldn't be taking Lek to a Foxhole , she could have got hurt,what's wrong with you? You cheapskate, couldn't you spring for a nice restaurant or something?

What are you some sort of an atheist or something.

[notmyself]

I'm not advocating for funded scientific research, just advocating that each of us be open to exploring the issues ourselves.

Would we not need some basis to judge what is worth exploring? Because of the limit on the number of embedded quotes I had to delete what you were replying to but basically it was to do with looking for a stone bigger than the size of the Earth. You would, I hope, agree that such a search would be silly and in thinking it is silly you would have placed restrictions on what is worthwhile.

Apparently belief rates are higher among scientists outside the US, while the reverse is true for the lay population.

Very surprised at the former. You wouldn't happen to have the source at hand would you?

I believe many people who go into science careers have already decided not to believe, due to the irrational prejudice that there is a conflict between spiritual beliefs and science.

The only conflict would be the necessity to abrogate reason. People can bang on all they like about reason having nothing to do with spiritual belief but this is a total myth perpetrated by those of a religious ilk. I seem to remember that there are something like 6000 historical and present gods but let us halve it to 3000. Both myself and any given theist will dismiss 2999 gods for exactly the same reason but they will stop short of using the same method of deduction when it comes to their own flavour of god.

[wolf5370]

I'm not advocating for funded scientific research, just advocating that each of us be open to exploring the issues ourselves.

Would we not need some basis to judge what is worth exploring? Because of the limit on the number of embedded quotes I had to delete what you were replying to but basically it was to do with looking for a stone bigger than the size of the Earth. You would, I hope, agree that such a search would be silly and in thinking it is silly you would have placed restrictions on what is worthwhile.

Apparently belief rates are higher among scientists outside the US, while the reverse is true for the lay population.

Very surprised at the former. You wouldn't happen to have the source at hand would you?

I believe many people who go into science careers have already decided not to believe, due to the irrational prejudice that there is a conflict between spiritual beliefs and science.

The only conflict would be the necessity to abrogate reason. People can bang on all they like about reason having nothing to do with spiritual belief but this is a total myth perpetrated by those of a religious ilk. I seem to remember that there are something like 6000 historical and present gods but let us halve it to 3000. Both myself and any given theist will dismiss 2999 gods for exactly the same reason but they will stop short of using the same method of deduction when it comes to their own flavour of god.

A theist would say there was one God with 6000 different names and people's ideas about Him. Did religion invent God, or was religion invented because of God? Chicken, egg.

[NCFC]

So there's this place in France called Lourdes where daily hundreds of terminally ill people go to pray for a miracle cure. Has any research been done to show that cure rates are statistically significantly better for Lourdes visitors over non-Lourdes visitors?

Could be evidence of prayer working, although there might be a placebo effect. Anyone know?

[wolf5370]

faith [feyth]

noun

1.

confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.

2.

belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.

3.

belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.

4.

belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someoneconcerning honesty.

5.

a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.

The word faith is used in many ways and I did use it correctly.

How is faith and belief very different concepts? For the most part the words are interchangeable.

All Chinese are Asian ,are all Asians Chinese?

Al faith requires beliefs, do all beliefs require faith?

Politicians' Syllogism: Step One: We must do something. Step Two: This is something. Step Three: Therefore we must do this. Logically, this akin to other equally famous syllogisms, such as: Step One: All dogs have four legs. Step Two: My cat has four legs. Step Three: Therefore my dog is a cat. [Yes Minister]

[wolf5370]

So there's this place in France called Lourdes where daily hundreds of terminally ill people go to pray for a miracle cure. Has any research been done to show that cure rates are statistically significantly better for Lourdes visitors over non-Lourdes visitors?

Could be evidence of prayer working, although there might be a placebo effect. Anyone know?

I remember a TV program about that once (maybe 20 years ago) - not just Lourdes but several other places too. Mostly it was attributed to: placebo effects; hypochondria; coincidence, but also some more amazing things were actually noted (incurable/N-stage disease being cured or going into remission- although of course this just makes people call hoax or misdiagnosis - so such statistics are pretty worthless as a way to "sell" faith-healing) - though statistically it's not great anyway!

[thailiketoo]

I get that she replied that she is a Buddhist , and I understand that Buddhist are atheists.

what I don't understand is why she had to be a Bud dhist, she could had being a Christian,

the fact that The Buddha died 500 years ago dos not preclude her from being a christian

Sorry I still dont get it

She would be what her ancestors were (in her mind) and since Buddha got their first, that is what she and her family were. Christianity was not there to compete. Remember this was Leki in a foxhole, not a long discussion on religion. So that made two atheists in the foxhole. Me and Lek.

Yea... well, you shouldn't be taking Lek to a Foxhole , she could have got hurt,what's wrong with you? You cheapskate, couldn't you spring for a nice restaurant or something? What are you some sort of an atheist or something.

I've always felt sorry for the guys who had to go Iraq or Afghanistan.

[notmyself]

So there's this place in France called Lourdes where daily hundreds of terminally ill people go to pray for a miracle cure. Has any research been done to show that cure rates are statistically significantly better for Lourdes visitors over non-Lourdes visitors?

Could be evidence of prayer working, although there might be a placebo effect. Anyone know?

Not heard of specific Lourdes research but there have been many many studies done for decades and all point to prayer having no positive effect. I say positive because one study (the biggest I believe) conducted in the early to mid 2000s showed that there is a negative effect if the people who are unwell know they are being prayed for. This study was paid for by the Templeton Foundation who spent millions on it. The results were kept secret (brushed under the carpet) for ages until someone leaked them, soon after the Templeton Foundation released them itself saying that the delay was because the study was so big. No, they were so sure that prayer could be proved to be effective that they spent millions on a study only to show they were wrong so tried to hide it. Reminds me of Thailand.

[Edit] Fellow member Wolf is quite correct, I remember the documentary now it is mentioned.

Edited January 9, 2014 by notmyself

[sirineou]

All dogs have four legs. Step Two: My cat has four legs. Step Three: Therefore my dog is a cat. [Yes Minister]

This is soo deep

According to the above equation, not only is your dog a cat , but all dogs are cats

ipso facto (haa you didn't think I spoke a foreign language did you?) all cats are dogs

Just thinking about it makes my head hurt

and here I am feeding my cat, dog-food all this time. Boy is my dog going to be surprised when I tell him he is a cat.

just one question, we have a dog who because of a car accident is missing a leg, can he also be a cat?

[wolf5370]

All dogs have four legs. Step Two: My cat has four legs. Step Three: Therefore my dog is a cat. [Yes Minister]

This is soo deep

According to the above equation, not only is your dog a cat , but all dogs are cats

ipso facto (haa you didn't think I spoke a foreign language did you?) all cats are dogs

Just thinking about it makes my head hurt

and here I am feeding my cat, dog-food all this time. Boy is my dog going to be surprised when I tell him he is a cat.

just one question, we have a dog who because of a car accident is missing a leg, can he also be a cat?

No because all tripods have 3 legs; your cat-dog has 3 legs, therefore your cat-dog is a tripod

[SparklingCascades]

Reading comments here it reminds me that today the West is largely inhabited by "atheists or Islamists".

The other religions seem to be in a minority.

I have no religious views but cannot help noticing that the Western switch to a largely "atheist or Islamic" population coincides with the economic decay many of these countries are wrestling with. Maybe prosperity or the lack of prosperity is the price people pay for their beliefs?

[sirineou]

All dogs have four legs. Step Two: My cat has four legs. Step Three: Therefore my dog is a cat. [Yes Minister]

This is soo deep

According to the above equation, not only is your dog a cat , but all dogs are cats

ipso facto (haa you didn't think I spoke a foreign language did you?) all cats are dogs

Just thinking about it makes my head hurt

and here I am feeding my cat, dog-food all this time. Boy is my dog going to be surprised when I tell him he is a cat.

just one question, we have a dog who because of a car accident is missing a leg, can he also be a cat?

No because all tripods have 3 legs; your cat-dog has 3 legs, therefore your cat-dog is a tripod

Since this thread is beginning to drift off-topic I will drag it back into deeper waters by making the following observation

Not only there might not be a God, but now there might not be a Dog, which is kind of freaky because God spelled backwards is dog.

Chew on that for a while

[thailiketoo]

Reading comments here it reminds me that today the West is largely inhabited by "atheists or Islamists".

The other religions seem to be in a minority.

I have no religious views but cannot help noticing that the Western switch to a largely "atheist or Islamic" population coincides with the economic decay many of these countries are wrestling with. Maybe prosperity or the lack of prosperity is the price people pay for their beliefs?

• A majority (53%) of Canadians believe in God. What is of particular interest is that 28% of Protestants, 33% of Catholics, and 23% of those who attend weekly religious services do not.
• One quarter (23%) of those with no religious identity still believe in God.^[13]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism

[wolf5370]

All dogs have four legs. Step Two: My cat has four legs. Step Three: Therefore my dog is a cat. [Yes Minister]

This is soo deep

According to the above equation, not only is your dog a cat , but all dogs are cats

ipso facto (haa you didn't think I spoke a foreign language did you?) all cats are dogs

Just thinking about it makes my head hurt

and here I am feeding my cat, dog-food all this time. Boy is my dog going to be surprised when I tell him he is a cat.

just one question, we have a dog who because of a car accident is missing a leg, can he also be a cat?

No because all tripods have 3 legs; your cat-dog has 3 legs, therefore your cat-dog is a tripod

Since this thread is beginning to drift off-topic I will drag it back into deeper waters by making the following observation

Not only there might not be a God, but now there might not be a Dog, which is kind of freaky because God spelled backwards is dog.

Chew on that for a while

Are you suggesting God might actually be Tac?

[wym]

I would say you'd have to call yourself an "ex-" whatever once you no longer believe.

I have lots of friends describe themselves as "recovering Catholic".

And IMO the ones that have some concept of God but don't affiliate are probably on the right track.

Out of all the faiths I've sampled I like the Quakers best, completely "un-organized" religion, each meeting sets its own format, most are just silent worship, no preaching, no dogma.

Do our best to see the Light, "that of God" in every human being, every aspect of creation. And of course the very long and fierce traditions of pacifism and equality appeal. . .

[Neeranam]

So there's this place in France called Lourdes where daily hundreds of terminally ill people go to pray for a miracle cure. Has any research been done to show that cure rates are statistically significantly better for Lourdes visitors over non-Lourdes visitors?

Could be evidence of prayer working, although there might be a placebo effect. Anyone know?

Not heard of specific Lourdes research but there have been many many studies done for decades and all point to prayer having no positive effect. I say positive because one study (the biggest I believe) conducted in the early to mid 2000s showed that there is a negative effect if the people who are unwell know they are being prayed for. This study was paid for by the Templeton Foundation who spent millions on it. The results were kept secret (brushed under the carpet) for ages until someone leaked them, soon after the Templeton Foundation released them itself saying that the delay was because the study was so big. No, they were so sure that prayer could be proved to be effective that they spent millions on a study only to show they were wrong so tried to hide it. Reminds me of Thailand.

[Edit] Fellow member Wolf is quite correct, I remember the documentary now it is mentioned.

The only scoffers of prayer are those who haven't tried it.

[pastafarian]

This is, without a doubt, the best topic I've ever seen on TV!

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[pastafarian]

So there's this place in France called Lourdes where daily hundreds of terminally ill people go to pray for a miracle cure. Has any research been done to show that cure rates are statistically significantly better for Lourdes visitors over non-Lourdes visitors?

Could be evidence of prayer working, although there might be a placebo effect. Anyone know?

Not heard of specific Lourdes research but there have been many many studies done for decades and all point to prayer having no positive effect. I say positive because one study (the biggest I believe) conducted in the early to mid 2000s showed that there is a negative effect if the people who are unwell know they are being prayed for. This study was paid for by the Templeton Foundation who spent millions on it. The results were kept secret (brushed under the carpet) for ages until someone leaked them, soon after the Templeton Foundation released them itself saying that the delay was because the study was so big. No, they were so sure that prayer could be proved to be effective that they spent millions on a study only to show they were wrong so tried to hide it. Reminds me of Thailand.

[Edit] Fellow member Wolf is quite correct, I remember the documentary now it is mentioned.

The only scoffers of prayer are those who haven't tried it.

Even the vast majority of believers really know how futile praying is as, whenever they or their child is sick, they go to a hospital/doctor. If praying really works then why bother?!

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