Are you an Atheist/Believer?

[sirineou]

quote "So I'm not certain how to begin a defense of the dogma of basic Christianity other than by saying Jesus Christ was a real person. That means that he was born, lived on earth and was killed in the manner described in the bible. He was a great teacher, healer, miracle worker and said he was the son of God. Those I do believe. I believe the accounts provided by eyewitnesses."

There were lots of Jesus figures with similar tales

see http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/

It scares me that people with the above opinion have a vote and the right to raise children. That is one of the reasons I came to Thailand. Not that I would be in favor of taking the right away but I had to leave.

You know the people who say if you don't like it get out. Well I did.

I am also of the opinion that I should live by the teachings of Jesus which say:

Love your God and love your neighbor as yourself

Do good to everyone

Seek peace

Pray for your enemies

Do not be a hypocrite

Care for the sick and dying

Which of these things scare you?

Good thingJC said all these things because if he had not , non of as would had thought of them

[sirineou]

quote "So I'm not certain how to begin a defense of the dogma of basic Christianity other than by saying Jesus Christ was a real person. That means that he was born, lived on earth and was killed in the manner described in the bible. He was a great teacher, healer, miracle worker and said he was the son of God. Those I do believe. I believe the accounts provided by eyewitnesses."

There were lots of Jesus figures with similar tales

see http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/

It scares me that people with the above opinion have a vote and the right to raise children. That is one of the reasons I came to Thailand. Not that I would be in favor of taking the right away but I had to leave.

You know the people who say if you don't like it get out. Well I did.

I am also of the opinion that I should live by the teachings of Jesus which say:

Love your God and love your neighbor as yourself

Do good to everyone

Seek peace

Pray for your enemies

Do not be a hypocrite

Care for the sick and dying

Which of these things scare you?

Good thing JC said all these things because if he had not , non of as would had thought of them

[thailiketoo]

quote "So I'm not certain how to begin a defense of the dogma of basic Christianity other than by saying Jesus Christ was a real person. That means that he was born, lived on earth and was killed in the manner described in the bible. He was a great teacher, healer, miracle worker and said he was the son of God. Those I do believe. I believe the accounts provided by eyewitnesses."

There were lots of Jesus figures with similar tales

see http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/

It scares me that people with the above opinion have a vote and the right to raise children. That is one of the reasons I came to Thailand. Not that I would be in favor of taking the right away but I had to leave.

You know the people who say if you don't like it get out. Well I did.

in regards to your last post. here is an example of someone being insulting. Guess what? It was you.

I told you what was in my heart. The poster believes something that has no basis in fact. That to me is scary. So I left. I have little faith in a continent that believes in institutionalized fairy tales. That is what I believe and I told you what I did about it. That is not insulting. I think people who believe in fairy tales (you may call it faith) should not be allowed to have sharp objects. I didn't tell you that you can't or that I would support anyone taking away your perceived rights. I just don't want to be around. I'm polite. I am not insulting and I got out of Dodge. The people in Thailand are much more logical, rational and believable.

[Brevity]

The only real conclusion I can come to from this thread so far is that atheists appear to be very rude and seem to consider calling people stupid because they have an opposing view to be normal conversation.

This was a good thread, and I applaud the members who resisted the urge to name call and seemed interested to hear other arguments.

One thing I would like to ask is: is it possible that, because atheists create their own moral code based on what they feel is right, are they more likely to have inconsistent ethics because there feelings change day to day?

I said in another post, I was subjected to a Roman Catholic education and saw some of the worst, most unethical, most vicious, and most non-compassionate behavior from Catholic nuns and priests. On top of that, some of the most heinous acts against mankind have been done in the name of religion, and finally, I've met my share of "Christians" and "Buddhists" whose conduct would tell me that they probably don't even know what the words 'Christianity' or "Buddhism" really mean. So, I feel that we are all born with a moral compass and the situations in our lives mold our moral code. If someone is born into extreme poverty, their moral code may be compromised (in our opinion) but perhaps these people did what they did because of the awful situation they were born into. I guess to answer the question directly, I disagree that atheists, or anybody for that matter, make their own moral code. Society, the environment one grows up in and situations make one's moral code.

Interesting that you feel we are born with a moral compass. How'd that get there?

I suppose it's one the mysteries of life. Life is more than what just meets the eye, and not everything beyond the physical plain in life is a result of religion as we're taught it be. We're just hard-wired that way, I guess.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Brevity

[sirineou]

The only real conclusion I can come to from this thread so far is that atheists appear to be very rude and seem to consider calling people stupid because they have an opposing view to be normal conversation.

This was a good thread, and I applaud the members who resisted the urge to name call and seemed interested to hear other arguments.

One thing I would like to ask is: is it possible that, because atheists create their own moral code based on what they feel is right, are they more likely to have inconsistent ethics because there feelings change day to day?

Isn't rude using a broad brush and calling anyone n this Thread who does not believe in theism rude??

anyway, the premise in your above statement concerning moral codes is wrong, so consequently anything that follows from that premise is also wrong.

Interesting that you feel we are born with a moral compass. How'd that get there?

evolution,

" a moral compass" is the expression of a cooperative nature, Cooperation has survival value

hence those with a cooperative nature had a better chance of surviving and passing on their genes.

ie. Not killing your neighbors was good if you wanted to have neighbors , Those with neighbors had a better chance of survival, hens the development of communities . etc etc

[notmyself]

He's trying to lead you toward: the scientific method.

Nope, I was leading toward reason.

There are dimensions, beings and realities unknown to human science that have caused and continue to cause phenomena that people have interpreted in such a way as to give rise to spiritual and religious beliefs.

I'm not going along with that at all.

Over time, there have been a number of things that the human mind has been unable to understand. So innate was our desire for an answer that we made answers up, this has often resulted in spiritual and religious beliefs.

It is interesting to note that not once has the true answer turned out to be magic.

[thailiketoo]

Nope, I was leading toward reason.

I'm not going along with that at all.

Over time, there have been a number of things that the human mind has been unable to understand. So innate was our desire for an answer that we made answers up, this has often resulted in spiritual and religious beliefs.

It is interesting to note that not once has the true answer turned out to be magic.

There is a hill tribe who, until recently, killed twin babies because of religious beliefs.

[RandomSand]

Over time, there have been a number of things that the human mind has been unable to understand. So innate was our desire for an answer that we made answers up, this has often resulted in spiritual and religious beliefs.

I disagree with the bias slant in your statement.

It's more accurate to say that religious belief systems have been invented because of people's spiritual experiences. To say that spiritual and religious beliefs have been invented because of out lack of understanding is to put the cart before the horse. Sure; if we didn't understand something in the past; we could fill the blank with religion but It would be incorrect to say that's why religion exists.

*edit; syntax.

Edited January 20, 2014 by RandomSand

[thailiketoo]

Human sacrifices were still occurring in Buddhist Burma in the 1850s. When the capital was moved to Mandalay, 56 “spotless” men were buried beneath the new city walls to sanctify and protect the city. When two of the burial spots were later found empty, royal astrologers decreed that 500 men, women, boys, and girls must be killed and buried at once, or the capital must be abandoned.

[maxme]

The only real conclusion I can come to from this thread so far is that atheists appear to be very rude and seem to consider calling people stupid because they have an opposing view to be normal conversation.

This was a good thread, and I applaud the members who resisted the urge to name call and seemed interested to hear other arguments.

One thing I would like to ask is: is it possible that, because atheists create their own moral code based on what they feel is right, are they more likely to have inconsistent ethics because there feelings change day to day?

Looking at your post I would say you are the one being insulting. I went back and looked and it seems like there was only one non believer being insulting. Remember no one told the atheists to turn the other cheek. Who was that, hmmm... or Seek peace or Pray for your enemies. Which one are you doing?

Uhu... wait, wait ... I get it... You sit here and insult anyone who wants to believe and they should just sit there and take it.

[sirineou]

Over time, there have been a number of things that the human mind has been unable to understand. So innate was our desire for an answer that we made answers up, this has often resulted in spiritual and religious beliefs.

I disagree with the bias slant in your statement.

It's more accurate to say that religious belief systems have been invented because of people's spiritual experiences. To say that spiritual and religious beliefs have been invented because of out lack of understanding is to put the cart before the horse. Sure; if we didn't understand something in the past; we could fill the blank with religion but It would be incorrect to say that's why religion exists.

*edit; syntax.

He said nothing or the short

The operative word in the statement was Often" and from the last part of your reply it look like you agree

No where did he say that is the reason religion exists,

[StreetCowboy]

Over time, there have been a number of things that the human mind has been unable to understand. So innate was our desire for an answer that we made answers up, this has often resulted in spiritual and religious beliefs.

I disagree with the bias slant in your statement.

It's more accurate to say that religious belief systems have been invented because of people's spiritual experiences. To say that spiritual and religious beliefs have been invented because of out lack of understanding is to put the cart before the horse. Sure; if we didn't understand something in the past; we could fill the blank with religion but It would be incorrect to say that's why religion exists.

*edit; syntax.

He said nothing or the short

The operative word in the statement was Often" and from the last part of your reply it look like you agree

No where did he say that is the reason religion exists,

Is that you chaps pulling up other people's "God of gaps" as a straw man again?

EDIT: Typo

Edited January 20, 2014 by StreetCowboy

[boomerangutang]

Calm down people!

your avatar doesn't look very calm

I'm a long-term atheist married to a devout Buddhist. We respect each other's views but I guess neither of us give up completely on the idea of converting the other but is mostly low key stuff. Sorry, but when ya dead that's it. Learn to live with it. (yes, pun intended.)

When you're dead, you turn to compost - though some more readily than others - depending on the amount of preservatives they've been ingesting, the quarts of embalming fluid flushed in to their system, the amount of plastic surgery and artificial bone parts they've had implanted.

Who needs God, when we've got Bob. Plus, less chance of blaspheming. Examples:

Thank Bob

Bob damn it!

For the love of Bob, will you please stop...... (fill in the blank)

If Bob had meant you to swim, He would have given you flippers for feet.

Who decided to rent this Bob-forsaken place for the wedding reception?

And when Muslims are about to toss bombs in crowded markets, they can scream: Bob-Akbar!

And when a tornado rips apart your house, you can say, "It's Bob's will"

And when your wife gives birth to darling twin daughters, you can say, "It's Bob's will."

[sirineou]

Human sacrifices were still occurring in Buddhist Burma in the 1850s. When the capital was moved to Mandalay, 56 “spotless” men were buried beneath the new city walls to sanctify and protect the city. When two of the burial spots were later found empty, royal astrologers decreed that 500 men, women, boys, and girls must be killed and buried at once, or the capital must be abandoned.

So what happen in the end, don't let as hanging.

so far if I understand this right, No one was killed, not much of a story if you ask me

[sirineou]

Over time, there have been a number of things that the human mind has been unable to understand. So innate was our desire for an answer that we made answers up, this has often resulted in spiritual and religious beliefs.

I disagree with the bias slant in your statement.

It's more accurate to say that religious belief systems have been invented because of people's spiritual experiences. To say that spiritual and religious beliefs have been invented because of out lack of understanding is to put the cart before the horse. Sure; if we didn't understand something in the past; we could fill the blank with religion but It would be incorrect to say that's why religion exists.

*edit; syntax.

He said nothing or the short

The operative word in the statement was Often" and from the last part of your reply it look like you agree

No where did he say that is the reason religion exists,

Is that you chaps pulling up other people's "God of gaps" as a straw man again?

EDIT: Typo

How is "God of the Gaps" a straw man?

[notmyself]

Over time, there have been a number of things that the human mind has been unable to understand. So innate was our desire for an answer that we made answers up, this has often resulted in spiritual and religious beliefs.

I disagree with the bias slant in your statement.

It's more accurate to say that religious belief systems have been invented because of people's spiritual experiences. To say that spiritual and religious beliefs have been invented because of out lack of understanding is to put the cart before the horse. Sure; if we didn't understand something in the past; we could fill the blank with religion but It would be incorrect to say that's why religion exists.

*edit; syntax.

I can almost live with that. I was trying to adapt something which was incoherent and tried too hard to keep as closely as possible to the original text, my bad.

It would be accurate to say that religious belief systems have been invented but to put that down to 'people's spiritual experiences' would be inaccurate though that is not to say that supposed spiritual experiences were not felt. The religious belief systems are power systems used to control the masses by way of a sea of incredulity.

[sirineou]

Calm down people!

your avatar doesn't look very calm

I'm a long-term atheist married to a devout Buddhist. We respect each other's views but I guess neither of us give up completely on the idea of converting the other but is mostly low key stuff. Sorry, but when ya dead that's it. Learn to live with it. (yes, pun intended.)

When you're dead, you turn to compost - though some more readily than others - depending on the amount of preservatives they've been ingesting, the quarts of embalming fluid flushed in to their system, the amount of plastic surgery and artificial bone parts they've had implanted.

Some even turn to compost even before they die, or at least they smell that way

[thailiketoo]

Human sacrifices were still occurring in Buddhist Burma in the 1850s. When the capital was moved to Mandalay, 56 “spotless” men were buried beneath the new city walls to sanctify and protect the city. When two of the burial spots were later found empty, royal astrologers decreed that 500 men, women, boys, and girls must be killed and buried at once, or the capital must be abandoned.

So what happen in the end, don't let as hanging.

so far if I understand this right, No one was killed, not much of a story if you ask me

I think 100 were killed before the British stopped it.

[StreetCowboy]

...

Over time, there have been a number of things that the human mind has been unable to understand. So innate was our desire for an answer that we made answers up, this has often resulted in spiritual and religious beliefs.

...

...

Is that you chaps pulling up other people's "God of gaps" as a straw man again?

EDIT: Typo

How is "God of the Gaps" a straw man?

The "God of gaps" is not representative of the faith that most of the religious people I know have. Nor were most of the religious people that I know involved in the crusades, nor are they suicide bombers, nor any of the other lampoons that have been offered in this thread. They are simply decent engineers, teachers and the like who profess a faith in God.

SC

[thailiketoo]

The "God of gaps" is not representative of the faith that most of the religious people I know have. Nor were most of the religious people that I know involved in the crusades, nor are they suicide bombers, nor any of the other lampoons that have been offered in this thread. They are simply decent engineers, teachers and the like who profess a faith in God.

SC

Sounds like what the Germans said after WWII. They were simply decent engineers. The Pope was a simple priest.

It is however the reason I didn't mention Christianity or Muslims in my two examples of atrocities. I didn't want to insult anyone when my point was to insult religion.

I have many personal horror stories of rape and suicide from my early years at a religious school. The perpetrators seemed like normal people but they were perverse demons who preyed on young children. I begged my parents to let me go to a non religious school to no avail. When I told my parents the religious people beat me, my parents beat me some more. I'm not trying to insult anyone. It is just my story.

[StreetCowboy]

That's Americans for you. No wonder you moved to Thailand. The chaps that went to a religious school in my home town never complained, and seemed like pretty well adjusted young men.

I was driving through Dalry, and this fella came up to us and he shone a light into the motor

"Any Cathlics in this car?"

"Dinnae be daft, o'course not"

"Sorry, pal, but ye cannae tell. They look mair and mair like us a' the time"

I think most people don't actually know what they believe in

SC

Edited January 20, 2014 by StreetCowboy

[thailiketoo]

That's Americans for you. No wonder you moved to Thailand. T

Can't get rid of that old insulting habit eh? In 2012 an Australian police report in the state of Victoria detailed 40 suicide deaths by people who had been abused by Catholic clergy. Austria, The report is based on hotline calls from 91 women (28%) and 234 men (72%). In August 2006, Father Charles Henry Sylvestre of Belle River, Ontario pled guilty to 47 counts of sexual abuse on females, aged between nine and fourteen years old between 1952 and 1989. In the Republic of Ireland, starting in the 1990s a series of criminal cases and government enquiries covered allegations that priests had abused hundreds of minors over previous decades. State-ordered investigations documented "tens of thousands of children from the 1940s to the 1990s" who suffered abuse including sexual abuse at the hands of priests, nuns and church staff in three diocese.

I only got to the "I's" and could go on but you get the point. Well you got the point before didn't you? Easy to throw in another American insult? Who would notice. Now I'll brace for your usual semantic response instead of a simple Christian or Muslim "I'm sorry."

Edited January 20, 2014 by thailiketoo

[StreetCowboy]

That's Americans for you. No wonder you moved to Thailand. T

Can't get rid of that old insulting habit eh? In 2012 an Australian police report in the state of Victoria detailed 40 suicide deaths by people who had been abused by Catholic clergy. Austria, The report is based on hotline calls from 91 women (28%) and 234 men (72%). In August 2006, Father Charles Henry Sylvestre of Belle River, Ontario pled guilty to 47 counts of sexual abuse on females, aged between nine and fourteen years old between 1952 and 1989. In the Republic of Ireland, starting in the 1990s a series of criminal cases and government enquiries covered allegations that priests had abused hundreds of minors over previous decades. State-ordered investigations documented "tens of thousands of children from the 1940s to the 1990s" who suffered abuse including sexual abuse at the hands of priests, nuns and church staff in three diocese.

I only got to the "I's" and could go on but you get the point. Well you got the point before didn't you? Easy to throw in another American insult? Who would notice. Now I'll brace for your usual semantic response instead of a simple Christian or Muslim "I'm sorry."

Lucky there wiz nae cathlics in he motor, then.

I don't really see how the existence of God can be determined by the behaviour of Papists.

Perhaps we could let loose some tigers, and if they eat the black fellows before the white, or the left handed before the right, we could conclude that there was a God.

Or we could view the behaviour of monarchs, appointed by the divine right of kings, or of Generals, or sergeants, or officers' batmen, and use that as a determinant for whether God existed.

Since we currently seem to have a pretty decent Pope on the throne in Rome, is your faith in the absence of God wavering?

SC

[sirineou]

...

Over time, there have been a number of things that the human mind has been unable to understand. So innate was our desire for an answer that we made answers up, this has often resulted in spiritual and religious beliefs.

...

...

Is that you chaps pulling up other people's "God of gaps" as a straw man again?

EDIT: Typo

How is "God of the Gaps" a straw man?

The "God of gaps" is not representative of the faith that most of the religious people I know have. Nor were most of the religious people that I know involved in the crusades, nor are they suicide bombers, nor any of the other lampoons that have been offered in this thread. They are simply decent engineers, teachers and the like who profess a faith in God.

SC

No one said, that all religious people were engaged in the Crusades , were suicide bombers, or any or the other disagreeable things we all agree happen with in religion. And I, and I am sure everyone else agrees, that most religious people are decent people.

Though I don't know if they are decent engineers, I work with a few of them, and they are far from decent

Please point me to the post where we said that all Christians are x, y, or z.

All we are saying is that religion empowers good people to do Bad things.

As far as the God of the Gaps analogy is concerned it is most certainly true, There are and there always be gaps in our knowledge, This is indisputable.

and we try to fill these gaps with religion.

What makes the sun go around the earth ?

God does,

oh ok we just found out, the earth does not move around the sun, release all the people we have in the dungeons, because they had said the earth removes around the sun. And send a note to the Devil to release any of them who we might have killed and condemned to hell, as it is no longer a sin to say that the Earth revolves around the Sun. Sorry our bad.

But what makes the earth move around the Sun. haa I got you there.God does

what this Newton guy say it is gravity and inertia, Ohh ok , Goe does not make the Earth move around the Sun it is that Gravity thing

But who designed Man? haa explain that

What Darwin say it is evolution? Yeaa...well

But how about all these dark people, god placed the sign oh Cain on them, made their skin dark.

What , genetics, ultraviolet rays, , vitamin D, ohh OK

But what happened before the Big Bang,........

[wym]

Over time, there have been a number of things that the human mind has been unable to understand. So innate was our desire for an answer that we made answers up, this has often resulted in spiritual and religious beliefs.

The religious belief systems are power systems used to control the masses by way of a sea of incredulity.

My take:

The purpose of religious power structures - ORGANIZATIONS and DOGMA is to control the masses.

There are valid spiritual beliefs and practices which came before the power structures, and to some extent remain more or less intact "hidden" within them, which are worthy of investigation.

Just as many material phenomena, many of these beliefs and practices "work", that is have a beneficial productive impact on one's life, even though we may not understand everything about WHY or HOW they work.

Their efficacy IMO ipso facto gives them validity, just like electricity and our immune system, regardless of lack of knowledge about their inner workings and ultimate causes.

[Neeranam]

Guys, I'm sure I said it before. The behavior of certain weirdos in some religions seems to make people atheists or anti God. God doesn't belong to any religion.

[StreetCowboy]

Guys, I'm sure I said it before. The behavior of certain weirdos in some religions seems to make people atheists or anti God. God doesn't belong to any religion.

Any more than predatory pricing by EdF makes me doubt the existence of electrons

[Neeranam]

I'm sure many bats don't believe in the moon as they have never seen it. Other bats believe as they have other senses that feel the moon.

Different creatures have different senses and members of the same species can have senses that vary.

Those humans who haven't seen or experienced God are lack some kind of sense. 6th sense perhaps?

There are 'worlds' beyond what most of us can perceive and we can never prove them just as one bat cannot prove to another that there is a moon. The bats that go on about there being no moon are wasting their time. They should try to develop their missing sense and experience the joy of the moon. Instead of trying to boost their egos by insisting that they who are senseless are in some way more intelligent than the bats with more senses.

All bats are totally unaware of Uranus, like we as a species are totally unaware of something.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Neeranam

[StreetCowboy]

I'm sure many bats don't believe in the moon as they have never seen it. Other bats believe as they have other senses that feel the moon.

Different creatures have different senses and members of the same species can have senses that vary.

Those humans who haven't seen or experienced God are lack some kind of sense. 6th sense perhaps?

There are 'worlds' beyond what most of us can perceive and we can never prove them just as one bat cannot prove to another that there is no moon. The bats that go on about there being no moon are wasting their time. They should try to develop their missing sense and experience the joy of the moon.

Maybe some of our lives are so small that there is no room for any joy in them

[notmyself]

There are valid spiritual beliefs and practices which came before the power structures, and to some extent remain more or less intact "hidden" within them, which are worthy of investigation.

Unworkable. Society would be in a position whereby non infinite resources would be used on ANY and EVERY claim.

Their efficacy IMO ipso facto gives them validity, just like electricity and our immune system, regardless of lack of knowledge about their inner workings and ultimate causes.

Friend goes to a temple and gives an offering of 1000 Baht for it not to rain during her birthday party. Farmer up the road does exactly the same thing because he needs rain as his crops will fail otherwise. In the end it doesn't rain so the efficacy of my friend is validated?

With all due respect. Utter drivel.