Abducting my own son

[Showbags]

Without knowing more details, like why she left, hard to give advice.

But not being married and not having legitimised the child as yours, you are left in the weaker position.

Suggest going to see the boy, then talk to the mother and get her 'feel' of current situation and what she is looking for etc.

Then, go away and put a plan together and if that plan involves a midnight runner with the boy, it will be easier done because of the first visit and some trust developed etc.

[ozyjon]

So sad but true,, i have been threatened with something similar, she said, if you don't do blah blah blah, i will call the police and they will put you in jail,, rather than argue, i took a few months to compose myself then i left without notice, (what am i saying) i don't trust Issan girls, they can be nasty and the police will believe them because the police they go to are maybe their uncle or cousin or even their father so you have no chance.

About your property and your vehicles, they are not yours anyway so you lost them the minute you paid for them so forget about it, i think you should do 2 things (1) Follow the advice of an English speaking lawyer (2) Follow your heart.

I wish you could tell me what village in Issan you are talking about so when i look for a girl on the internet i can give that town a miss, especially if she has a child but then maybe she can say have no children.

Good luck to you, please write back and let us know how you went, good or bad, i would like to know.

[atyclb]

I think that you should consult a lawyer. Get it wrong and your son could be involved in an international battle for custody. Would you want that for him?

Would your son want to live with you in your own country or would he prefer to live in Thailand? Would he want to suffer the emotional trauma of being used in a fight between his mother and his father? What difficulties might he face restarting his education abroad?

If you ponder on your son's present and future wants, needs and wellbeing you may be able to build a longer list for yourself.

A lawyer is a reasonable idea.

how capable is a 4 year old at being able to understand, analyze and contemplate a construct for where the best future lies?????? I am not pro father or pro mother here, simply pro reason, logic and common sense. Of course the parent with the child exerts influence on the child telling him where is the best place and with whom, even teaching the child to lie against the other parent.

A bit of early emotional trauma that leads to a brighter future is less harmful than a gloomy future especially if the mother and maternal family are not upscale and educated as is the reality in many farang-thai relationships.

This is why there are judges in family court. they examine and evaluate both parents/families and look for an unbiased solution. Family court judges are well paid and generally not subject to corruption. In the case of an older child minor the court may take the childs wishs into consideration but will still objectively look at the better suited parent/future.

While pondering your sons present and future wants may sound altruistic and noble in a philosophical and emotional sense it has no basis in reality. Sort of like why 4 year olds are not allowed to vote, drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes although perhaps some think they'd like to vote, drink or smoke.

[atyclb]

Thanks for your reply. Most sensible. But as the matter of fact, I have considered all that already and I came to the conclusion that for his future it would be much better if he gets educated abroad rather than in the public school of a lost village somewhere in Esan. Believe me, I've been there once before to visit my X relatives and is not the place one would wish his son to be grown...

Taking him with me represents also a sacrifice for me, because I would have to take care of him on my own and probably I wouldn't be able to return to Thailand, so I would leave behind property, cars and many other assets. But I'm still willing to do it for my sons future.

He is 4 y.o. He speaks 3 languages and with this age he would be able to catch up in the farang country.

My only worries are the fact that I will deprive him from his mother love, and that (and this is what I asked in the forum) we could face legal consecuences.

I'm sure if you are willing to leave behind property and vehicles you would probably be able to arrange with the mum to trade.... she gets the property and stuff you get the kid then no laws broken and everybody happy...

She will get all that anyway...so why will she be bothered to trade ?

You may have receipts for purchases, payments, bank records, etc etc. I know lower socio-economic people dread going to court. They have a fear and they must also spend a lot of money on lawyers. Even in Isaan the lawyer will charge them at least 20,000 baht for a court appearance. The threat of legal action could exert pressure on them.

PS; dont worry, the chances of a judge being a relative of a low end Isaan family are slim to none.

Edited January 8, 2014 by atyclb

[Netease]

Speaking from someone with 40 years custody experience, walk away you will save grief for you and your child if the child survives he will find you when of age, forget any form of legals. If you don't you will be destroyed

[thailandbeachisland]

I think you are so right to do that, good luck and don't let anyone stop you, you are the father and the one who decide, especially because I guess you are the one who feed the complete family.

[adonisofpattaya]

play it cool, don't show how eager you are to see your child.

this is why they use the child to extract cash from western fathers.

[Showbags]

Speaking from someone with 40 years custody experience, walk away you will save grief for you and your child if the child survives he will find you when of age, forget any form of legals. If you don't you will be destroyed

By Jesus...father of the year material here...

[epicstuff]

Thanks for your reply. Most sensible. But as the matter of fact, I have considered all that already and I came to the conclusion that for his future it would be much better if he gets educated abroad rather than in the public school of a lost village somewhere in Esan. Believe me, I've been there once before to visit my X relatives and is not the place one would wish his son to be grown...

Taking him with me represents also a sacrifice for me, because I would have to take care of him on my own and probably I wouldn't be able to return to Thailand, so I would leave behind property, cars and many other assets. But I'm still willing to do it for my sons future.

He is 4 y.o. He speaks 3 languages and with this age he would be able to catch up in the farang country.

My only worries are the fact that I will deprive him from his mother love, and that (and this is what I asked in the forum) we could face legal consecuences.

I'm sure if you are willing to leave behind property and vehicles you would probably be able to arrange with the mum to trade.... she gets the property and stuff you get the kid then no laws broken and everybody happy...

She will get all that anyway...so why will she be bothered to trade ?

why would she??? they weren't married.

[FiestyFarang]

So sad but true,, i have been threatened with something similar, she said, if you don't do blah blah blah, i will call the police and they will put you in jail,, rather than argue, i took a few months to compose myself then i left without notice, (what am i saying) i don't trust Issan girls, they can be nasty and the police will believe them because the police they go to are maybe their uncle or cousin or even their father so you have no chance.

About your property and your vehicles, they are not yours anyway so you lost them the minute you paid for them so forget about it, i think you should do 2 things (1) Follow the advice of an English speaking lawyer (2) Follow your heart.

I wish you could tell me what village in Issan you are talking about so when i look for a girl on the internet i can give that town a miss, especially if she has a child but then maybe she can say have no children.

Good luck to you, please write back and let us know how you went, good or bad, i would like to know.

Cars can be in a foreigner's name and if so sold and the money goes to the owner if not financed. Properties, especially condos can also be in a foreigner's name, houses....there are many different type of contracts so depends but usually the building can be in a foreigner's name but the land cannot. Therefore there is value depending on who the owner is. There is no mention she wants any of the properties or the car so presumably they are not in her name.

[pogal]

It's illegal without the consent of the mother (if she makes a complaint).

[Showbags]

Thanks for your reply. Most sensible. But as the matter of fact, I have considered all that already and I came to the conclusion that for his future it would be much better if he gets educated abroad rather than in the public school of a lost village somewhere in Esan. Believe me, I've been there once before to visit my X relatives and is not the place one would wish his son to be grown...

Taking him with me represents also a sacrifice for me, because I would have to take care of him on my own and probably I wouldn't be able to return to Thailand, so I would leave behind property, cars and many other assets. But I'm still willing to do it for my sons future.

He is 4 y.o. He speaks 3 languages and with this age he would be able to catch up in the farang country.

My only worries are the fact that I will deprive him from his mother love, and that (and this is what I asked in the forum) we could face legal consecuences.

I'm sure if you are willing to leave behind property and vehicles you would probably be able to arrange with the mum to trade.... she gets the property and stuff you get the kid then no laws broken and everybody happy...

She will get all that anyway...so why will she be bothered to trade ?

why would she??? they weren't married.

Thats right.

But depends what the property is exactly, but property is usually refered to as land etc and the OP mentioned if leaving, he loses it all or gives it all up...so presume it is land in her name....not being married and he has no legs to stand on.

And as he mentioned he loses it all if he leaves, maybe the car or cars and whatever else are also all in her name.

[pacovl46]

Thanks for your reply. Most sensible. But as the matter of fact, I have considered all that already and I came to the conclusion that for his future it would be much better if he gets educated abroad rather than in the public school of a lost village somewhere in Esan. Believe me, I've been there once before to visit my X relatives and is not the place one would wish his son to be grown...

Taking him with me represents also a sacrifice for me, because I would have to take care of him on my own and probably I wouldn't be able to return to Thailand, so I would leave behind property, cars and many other assets. But I'm still willing to do it for my sons future.

He is 4 y.o. He speaks 3 languages and with this age he would be able to catch up in the farang country.

My only worries are the fact that I will deprive him from his mother love, and that (and this is what I asked in the forum) we could face legal consecuences.

Courts almost always side with the mother of the child. The only way you could legally get custody is by proving that she's a bad mother, i.e. she's a drug addict, an alcoholic, grossly negligent, abusing him etc. I'm not sure what would happen if you just took your kid to your own country, but if she goes to the cops it might end very bad for you. Kidnapping is not a joke and you could go to prison for that. I would definitely consult a lawyer in Thailand and a lawyer in your own country before taking any drastic steps!

Edited January 8, 2014 by pacovl46

[ppmacready]

1. You cannot get anybody to help you because they can and will be charged with kidnapping.

2. Because your not married you can also be charged with kidnapping.

3. If the child has left Thailand on previous occasions you be ok going through the airport.

4. If not you need a signed letter of the mother. (Get some other Thai girl to write you a letter and put her mobile number on, make sure she knows child's name and date of birth and does not know mother.)

5. First point of stop is main airport, if lives in Issan go across Lao border to Vientiane then flight to Vietnam or Singapore.

6. Once you leave Thailand you are safe.

7. Thailand are not part of the UN protection of children so you will not be chased all over the world.

8. When in UK change both yours and child's surname. That way you will have no problem.

9. Your best bet is to get the mother to spend a night in a hotel, seperate rooms take child to your room. Better on ground floor. Then when mother tucked up on her room alone go go go

10. This advice has worked for many I know in similar situations.

I agree with all the above and assume you have your good reasons.

Fly from Lao its your best chance.

[I Like Thai]

My son and I have traveled several times together back to Europe before. He has even attended some school there, is registered in the social security there and is also registered as resident there.

He is 4 y.o. He speaks 3 languages and with this age he would be able to catch up in the farang country.

Don't want to call you a troll, but how did your child attend school in the UK ?

Edited January 8, 2014 by I Like Thai

[nontabury]

Thanks for your reply. Most sensible. But as the matter of fact, I have considered all that already and I came to the conclusion that for his future it would be much better if he gets educated abroad rather than in the public school of a lost village somewhere in Esan. Believe me, I've been there once before to visit my X relatives and is not the place one would wish his son to be grown...

Taking him with me represents also a sacrifice for me, because I would have to take care of him on my own and probably I wouldn't be able to return to Thailand, so I would leave behind property, cars and many other assets. But I'm still willing to do it for my sons future.

He is 4 y.o. He speaks 3 languages and with this age he would be able to catch up in the farang country.

My only worries are the fact that I will deprive him from his mother love, and that (and this is what I asked in the forum) we could face legal consecuences.

Courts almost always side with the mother of the child. The only way you could legally get custody is by proving that she's a bad mother, i.e. she's a drug addict, an alcoholic, grossly negligent, abusing him etc. I'm not sure what would happen if you just took your kid to your own country, but if she goes to the cops it might end very bad for you. Kidnapping is not a joke and you could go to prison for that. I would definitely consult a lawyer in Thailand and a lawyer in your own country before taking any drastic steps!

Wrong!, the children's courts here in Thailand are not like the normal courts with all the corruption etc, The children's courts are very fair to Farang fathers, certainly there is no bias against the fathers which tends to happens in similar courts in the west, also they will not discriminate against one of the parents because that parent is none Thai. They seem to only take the welfare of the child into consideration. What is difficult is obtaining sole custody of the child, unless it can be proven that the other parent is very immoral and may harm the child.they will usually opt for joint custody with the child living with one parent, while the other parents would be granted reasonable visiting or staying rights.

[Andre0720]

Something similar happened to my neighbour some 4 years ago.

Married though, two young daughters, wife gambles.... He got enough of the mafia coming to collect gambling debts.

One day, took the two daughters, flew out to Britain. I know he used to also stay in Switzerland.

His wife asked me for advice as to what to do. She had no money, of course..only the mafia waiting for a next payment.

I am far from an expert, but I told her her best option was to fly to Britain, and ask for help there... From Thailand, international discussions with lawyers....hummm. No money for that either... Charges of abduction or kidnapping were never considered... He was the father after all....

I think the daughters are best with the father....

[wolfmuc]

Speaking from someone with 40 years custody experience, walk away you will save grief for you and your child if the child survives he will find you when of age, forget any form of legals. If you don't you will be destroyed

On this subject there has been a load of real good advice.

But I think Netease has brought it to the point.Thank you for that.

And for you, emibel1, if you're not a troll, my best wishes.

Take care not being destroyed.

W.

[ALFREDO]

I would bring my son to my home country in that situation,if there is no cooperation with the Thai mother-Ex GF of my child.

Growing up in a backwoods village with similar schools and job possibilities is not an option to his life in a Western country.

I saw that clearly, my EX GF's brother had a boy with a Thai woman who died in an early age, with his second wife, he had a second son and a daughter.

It happened than, that that woman ended in a contract with a job broker and went to New Zealand, there she met a man, let her two children in young age 4-6 follow her there, it did not work out with that guy, the children came back after some month.

But, she started than a relationship with another man and let, after some time her children come again to NZ.

I met them now, in TH on a visit, they are both around 20 and so happy that their mother gave them that possibility, good schools, a NZ Passport and jobs.

Perfect English to of course.

Their older half brother, 23 has already a child lives with his young family in a typical Thai-Isaan house and has no job, only odd jobs and working in the small family farm, never really learned something in school, English ability zero, but a lot Tattoos.

With his Thai Passport and without funds he can only dream to fly to other Industrial Western style countries, same his half siblings.

Not even talking about their by a wide margin different standard of living!

Edited January 8, 2014 by ALFREDO

[honcho]

hi mate, I empathise with your situation.... ive been through the same myself. I just grabbed my 3 yr son and came to new Zealand using his nz passport. his mum didn't have the money to employ a lawyer, so never heard boo... hes much better off here at a decent (free) school, now we talk to his mum and have been on holiday to Thailand and visited his mum... she knows he has a better life here, and is now happy that he is doing well....

I say go for it, im 99% sure they wont and cant force you to bring him back, and in the future your ex will come round and you can both come back

good luck

[SPIKECM]

What you have to do is go either way. Make a choice and make no compromise. Full custody and the mother has no access or don't see the child at all. Having access to the child will just give the mother power and the child will become her own personal "Tdoa Pragan". There will be exceptions, but this is the rule. That path will try very hard to destroy your life. You can't get full legal custody with no rights for access for the mother, if you stay in Thailand with the child. No court will grant that and that is the reason I finally gave up. Even if I was successful in full custody, I could never keep the mother away.

The way I played it was to try for one year for full custody and when that failed, I walked away and never saw her again. I refused to pay for anything other than my daughter's education, as if I provided a monthly income, I would never get custody. After 8 years, when it eventually sunk in that my daughter was not really worth much to her, I got custody. The advantage of getting custody at 8 years old is that as a child at that age cannot be controlled by the mother.

The disadvantage is the old Jesuit saying.."give me the boy until the age of seven, and I'll give you the man" ...well it is the same with girls. As we live in Thailand, it will be too late to change her, so we'll have to head for the UK for two to three years.

I could have just left the whole thing alone, but we Westerners aren't like that (with some exceptions)....

Speaking from someone with 40 years custody experience, walk away you will save grief for you and your child if the child survives he will find you when of age, forget any form of legals. If you don't you will be destroyed

On this subject there has been a load of real good advice.
But I think Netease has brought it to the point.Thank you for that.
And for you, emibel1, if you're not a troll, my best wishes.
Take care not being destroyed.
W.

[FritsSikkink]

If you have a lot of assets in Thailand why take the route of kidnapping when you can afford a good lawyer.

Take the legal route and you and your child will also be able to return to Thailand in a later stage. The child will want to know his Thai family when he gets older.

Money is a powerfull tool.

Edited January 9, 2014 by FritsSikkink

[Thai at Heart]

1. You cannot get anybody to help you because they can and will be charged with kidnapping.

2. Because your not married you can also be charged with kidnapping.

3. If the child has left Thailand on previous occasions you be ok going through the airport.

4. If not you need a signed letter of the mother. (Get some other Thai girl to write you a letter and put her mobile number on, make sure she knows child's name and date of birth and does not know mother.)

5. First point of stop is main airport, if lives in Issan go across Lao border to Vientiane then flight to Vietnam or Singapore.

6. Once you leave Thailand you are safe.

7. Thailand are not part of the UN protection of children so you will not be chased all over the world.

8. When in UK change both yours and child's surname. That way you will have no problem.

9. Your best bet is to get the mother to spend a night in a hotel, seperate rooms take child to your room. Better on ground floor. Then when mother tucked up on her room alone go go go

10. This advice has worked for many I know in similar situations.

I just travelled with my.kids and the embassy and agent advised me to have a signed letter from wife giving permission.

[atyclb]

Speaking from someone with 40 years custody experience, walk away you will save grief for you and your child if the child survives he will find you when of age, forget any form of legals. If you don't you will be destroyed

All depends of how strongly or indifferent the parent is. There no lack of non thai's that won custody in thai courts however the tv prevalent posture on this issue is typically that of pessimism and not being able to prevail in court as a non thai. You may have tried 40 years and were not successful but that does not at all preclude other parents from success.

Thai family court in many ways is more fair than western courts that automatically assume the mother is best suited.

Thai court looks at both parents. Their backgrounds, work history, education, ability to earn money, assets, and decides based on objectivity, not maternity.

After being molded and brainwashed that child will find you when the family directs him to get money from you for them.

Edited January 9, 2014 by atyclb

[SPIKECM]

You're absolutely right. I didn't fail to get custody after one year. I just gave up. She moved province and then I had to get a different lawyer from my original. I had some of her family as witnesses against her, even her mother, but of course they were unwilling to go to court at the end of the day.

The other thing is that even if you are successful in getting custody, no court would deny access rights to the mother (according to my solicitor). That was what finished me off. And the bit about molded and brainwashed. Absolutely. The biggest argument. Luckily I got my daughter in time: 8 years old. Much older and I reckon it is pushing it.

Speaking from someone with 40 years custody experience, walk away you will save grief for you and your child if the child survives he will find you when of age, forget any form of legals. If you don't you will be destroyed

All depends of how strongly or indifferent the parent is. There no lack of non thai's that won custody in thai courts however the tv prevalent posture on this issue is typically that of pessimism and not being able to prevail in court as a non thai. You may have tried 40 years and were not successful but that does not at all preclude other parents from success.

Thai family court in many ways is more fair than western courts that automatically assume the mother is best suited.

Thai court looks at both parents. Their backgrounds, work history, education, ability to earn money, assets, and decides based on objectivity, not maternity.

After being molded and brainwashed that child will find you when the family directs him to get money from you for them.

[atyclb]

If you have a lot of assets in Thailand why take the route of kidnapping when you can afford a good lawyer.

Take the legal route and you and your child will also be able to return to Thailand in a later stage. The child will want to know his Thai family when he gets older.

Money is a powerfull tool.

Beware of bangkok lawyers as many will charge exorbitant fees to handle a case. fees can be equal to or higher then even lawyers in developed countries. they do this knowing you are emotional and often willing to pay whatever they ask. in addition they bill you for travel time to and from upcountry (also expensive) in my opinion and actual experience you can be better off with a reputable local attorney. local attorneys tend to know the local players involved and often judges are on friendly basis. evidence is evidence and law is law. so you may need an interpreter but that still costs agreat deal less then many a bkk firm.

[damrong kraithat]

My friend the first place she will call is the police! And airport immigration will be inform and finally you will be arrested on some made up abduction charges, which she would have paid the police to do so. Call this guy he is ex police from the uk and he is friends with the thais government ie police. 085-110-5237 his name is David, i believe david is his P.A he will have a way out for you for sure.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[nontabury]

If you have a lot of assets in Thailand why take the route of kidnapping when you can afford a good lawyer.

Take the legal route and you and your child will also be able to return to Thailand in a later stage. The child will want to know his Thai family when he gets older.

Money is a powerfull tool.

Beware of bangkok lawyers as many will charge exorbitant fees to handle a case. fees can be equal to or higher then even lawyers in developed countries. they do this knowing you are emotional and often willing to pay whatever they ask. in addition they bill you for travel time to and from upcountry (also expensive) in my opinion and actual experience you can be better off with a reputable local attorney. local attorneys tend to know the local players involved and often judges are on friendly basis. evidence is evidence and law is law. so you may need an interpreter but that still costs agreat deal less then many a bkk firm.

While agreeing with the first part of your reply, I totally disagree with your suggestion regarding a reputable local attorney, 99% of Thai lawyers are completely bent, while they are taking money from you to represent YOU, they are just as likely to be accepting inducements from the other side to make sure you don't win. As I've already suggested the OP would be better placed to have a word with Sebastian at essarn lawyers in korrat.

[damrong kraithat]

This is why i think lawyers is a big waste of money. In thailand i believe and have adopted to a thai way as it work best. If you going to take the law in your own hand make sure you at lest have some law on your side, and once you in the UK you and your son are safe on home soil!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[atyclb]

If you have a lot of assets in Thailand why take the route of kidnapping when you can afford a good lawyer.

Take the legal route and you and your child will also be able to return to Thailand in a later stage. The child will want to know his Thai family when he gets older.

Money is a powerfull tool.

Beware of bangkok lawyers as many will charge exorbitant fees to handle a case. fees can be equal to or higher then even lawyers in developed countries. they do this knowing you are emotional and often willing to pay whatever they ask. in addition they bill you for travel time to and from upcountry (also expensive) in my opinion and actual experience you can be better off with a reputable local attorney. local attorneys tend to know the local players involved and often judges are on friendly basis. evidence is evidence and law is law. so you may need an interpreter but that still costs agreat deal less then many a bkk firm.

While agreeing with the first part of your reply, I totally disagree with your suggestion regarding a reputable local attorney, 99% of Thai lawyers are completely bent, while they are taking money from you to represent YOU, they are just as likely to be accepting inducements from the other side to make sure you don't win. As I've already suggested the OP would be better placed to have a word with Sebastian at essarn lawyers in korrat.

I suggested a reputable local attorney but you totally disagree with this suggestion and then amazingly you contradict yourself and continue to re-iterate contacting a "local upcountry law firm in korat"