Top public health official faces probe for civil disobedience

[marcusd]

How can call him traitor? He just exercise his right to do civil disobedience. That anyway should bring him to immediate dismissal, given the incompatibility with government.

There's nothing so bad in the whole fact. Sure is a signal that Government is losing cohesion day after day.

No problem for him to voice his political opinion, but to encourage the whole health department to civil disobedience?

That is a crime and a traitorist act!

as a doctor, if YOUR government asked me to vomit unspeakable acts upon you, or lie to you or refuse proper care to you because money was siphoned off and I became so tired of being a pawn in that game.... Would you expect me to have morals and act ethically or submit to the law which was being ill used against you?

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[mca]

People can still travel outside Bangkok for treatment.

By.simply flying over the protest sites and blocked roads in their harry potter style flying cars...

[marcusd]

This country never ceases to amaze.

A medical man tells medical personnel on the public payroll to down tools for a political end.

He would probably be struck off else where in the world....

I can assure you doctors have changed government policy in many western nations for the good of the public.

Good on him

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[marcusd]

Good for him. When you do something that is sure to earn the full admonishment of the government - particularly this government - it is not an easy thing to do. It is called bravery. And the fact that he is not standing down is really courageous. And commendable. Civil disobedience is a right.

Bravery?

Doctors should not politicise this issue in their professional time.

have you ever been on strike or supported one ANYWHERE?, HMMMM. I think yes you have.

Mstbe a bit of HYPOCRISY here...

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[Thai at Heart]

I suspect you misunderstood TaH.

The Dr REFUSED to sign the ministers order to FORBID ambulances and medical teams from helping

It was the minister who wanted to stop the doctors from treating the protesters.

The minister issued the order because the hospitals had already sent ambulances and teams and he wanted to stop them doing so again.

No it's good that the doctor refused. As minister I infer that he is responsible for the medical profession.

Also let's not hold our breath to find out if not one doctor follows these instructions. There is always one numpty. The concept of professional conduct seems to get lost in thainess sometimes.

[marcusd]

The first big traitor. Stop this traitors salary, confiscate everything he assets.

Pretty sure that when the senior members of public services in the west call for colleagues to join protests and one-day strikes they aren't being 'traitors', and neither is this guy.

Show me an example in the west where a public health official has called for people to stop working to support a coup attempt against a democratically elected government? Especially one that has implemented affordable health care for the people.

Had this happened in Europe any union would have called for his immediate dismissal.

This guy represents the middle class who falsely believe they have something to gain from dictatorship. Useful idiots, pawns, gullible fools, are words that comes to mind.

AUSTRALIA... 2004 when

the liberal government wanted to rid the country of public healthcare

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[marcusd]

There is more to it than that.

Read elsewhere and you will see that the care taker minister of health issued an order that public hospitals were not to send ambulances or medical teams to help the protesters and the Dr refused to sign it.

That's right the minister wanted to refuse the protesters who were injured the use of public hospital ambulance services.

A new low for for PT.

Wanting to refuse the public the use of public ambulances.

Now tell us who has no concern for people.

I love you robby

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[diceq]

I am a doctor. I have worked and held training seminars here.

I have first hand witnessed beaurocratic theft from the public health system and seen how doctors who try hard are unfairly treated by OFFICIALS because of government ineptitude, AND it has gotten worse under these tyrants professing to be Democratic.

I wish there was more I could do to assist him and I FULLY SUPPORT HIS ACTIONS relating to the rapidly decaying health system under these fools.

And you have been working here since before Thaksin came to power have you? And what kind of doctor are you? Because in my country doctors are educated and would know how to spell bureaucratic, as well as meaning of the words democratic and tyrant. They also respect the oath they sworn to uphold. Given that, I very much doubt that you are a real doctor.

Edited January 11, 2014 by diceq

[Thai at Heart]

Good for him. When you do something that is sure to earn the full admonishment of the government - particularly this government - it is not an easy thing to do. It is called bravery. And the fact that he is not standing down is really courageous. And commendable. Civil disobedience is a right.

Bravery?

Doctors should not politicise this issue in their professional time.

have you ever been on strike or supported one ANYWHERE?, HMMMM. I think yes you have.

Mstbe a bit of HYPOCRISY here...

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Doctors strikes? These are doctors and nurses who are often in thailand bound by an oath of conduct, as are many other professions. One of which is to perform their duties impartially.

Strikes overseas by medical staff are normally carried out with careful consideration, not for political statement but for their work and conditions. I can't say I remember it being done to support one party or another.

This is not a pay and conditions dispute.

Ironically, maybe we could wish for a politicians or army strike in thailand. Both seem never to strike on the basis that they are quite well remunerated.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Thai at Heart

[diceq]

I can assure you doctors have changed government policy in many western nations for the good of the public.

Give us one example where a health official has spoken out on political issues that has nothing to do with health care in a western country then. Just one.

[marcusd]

this guy is not FREE to make pronouncements on the government (his employer) he is PAID to do his job and his political stance should be demonstrated at the ballot box

and so too is zYingluck, her ministers and ALL sides if government. But they consistently ignore thei vows

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[marcusd]

I am a doctor. I have worked and held training seminars here.I have first hand witnessed beaurocratic theft from the public health system and seen how doctors who try hard are unfairly treated by OFFICIALS because of government ineptitude, AND it has gotten worse under these tyrants professing to be Democratic.

I wish there was more I could do to assist him and I FULLY SUPPORT HIS ACTIONS relating to the rapidly decaying health system under these fools.

And you have been working here since before Thaksin came to power have you? And what kind of doctor are you? Because in my country doctors are educated and would know how to spell bureaucratic, as well as meaning of the words democratic and tyrant. They also respect the oath they sworn to uphold. Given that, I very much doubt that you are a real doctor.

apologies for my large fingers and small keypad.

Yes I visited here before Taksin in a Professional capacity...yes I have seen many positive advancements but these were more foreign government intervention than political intervention from here.

Unfortunately I do not work here. I said that I have held seminars... Not currently working here.

Thankfully your opinions do not affect my good fortune.

Keep well.

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[JoeLing]

And an other one in clear defiance of the constitution.

CHAPTER IV

Duties of the Thai People

Section 74. A Government official, official or employee

of a Government agency, a State agency, a State enterprise or

other State official shall have a duty to act in compliance with the

law in order to protect public interests, and provide convenience

and services to the public in accordance with the good governance

principle.

In performing the duty and other acts relating to the

public, the persons under paragraph one shall be politically

impartial............

No respect for the government, no respect for the law, no respect to their own constitution

and then they talk about democracy

U do not get it.

this government is corrupt.

there are no equal rights (law) for all.

the constitution has a lot of loopholes and is outdated.

Here is no democracy, if the majority is looted from few corrupt people.

Why does he say that?

Why people feel this way?

It seems a lot of people in this country are fully feed up with these unethical politicians.

I think he, as a doctor helped more people than all the politicians together in the last 12 years!

Now my comment is not what the government or Thailand is or isn't. My comment

was about politicians who want to topple a democratically elected government in an

unconstitutional way because they say, the government acted against the constitution.

Do you get it?

Doesn't matter at all how many people he helped as a doctor but sure not in the last

12 years. As the permanent Health Secretary he's a politician not a doctor and I doubt

it very much, he will even have seen a single patient. In fact, I'm not even sure if he is

a Doctor of Medicine.?

BTW. Dr Mengele did help many people too - before he started butchering people.

Do you get it?

Suppose you don't quite understand what a constitution is!

A constitution is not something you go change ever couple of years.

A constitution has nothing to do with the present government.

Do you get it?

How can a fundamental document in a democracy whose basic function is to express

guiding national principles, establish basic rules, and limit the power of governments,

be outdated within 7 years?

USA's constitution was established in 1787 and had 27 or 28 amendments, not changes,

and has basically still the same principles as the first constitution had.

Switzerland's modern democratic constitution dates back to 1848 and did have two

total revisions in 1874 and 1999, not a change. Apart from the right of referendum and

the right of initiatives those revision did not change anything of importance in substance.

Germany's "basic rules" or "ground rules" where established in 1919 and remained in

effect throughout the existence of the "Third Reich" until 1947 when it got amended and

approved by the allied nations of the second world war. Since then, a few amendments

but no change in basic rights.

Lifespan of a constitution in Europe and Asia last in average between 19 and 32 years.

In 2006, the 1997 constitution of Thailand—considered by many a model of institutional

design adopted with extensive citizen participation—died a peaceful death in a bloodless

coup at the age of nine.

Fine tuning, amendments, revisions with the participation of all parties and the population

fair enough but an other, new constitution? Thailand's new constitution, not even 7 years

old, is still in his baby shoes. Has not even matured yet and some individuals already want

to change it? Even abolish it !!!

Maybe teach basic politics at school first, so the people of Thailand could have a real

understanding of what democracy, constitution, laws, rights and duties really mean.

Maybe then, Thailand has a democratic future which will benefit every single citizen of this

country and not just the ones who don't care about basic rules.

Do you get it?

[marcusd]

I am a doctor. I have worked and held training seminars here.I have first hand witnessed beaurocratic theft from the public health system and seen how doctors who try hard are unfairly treated by OFFICIALS because of government ineptitude, AND it has gotten worse under these tyrants professing to be Democratic.

I wish there was more I could do to assist him and I FULLY SUPPORT HIS ACTIONS relating to the rapidly decaying health system under these fools.

And you have been working here since before Thaksin came to power have you? And what kind of doctor are you? Because in my country doctors are educated and would know how to spell bureaucratic, as well as meaning of the words democratic and tyrant. They also respect the oath they sworn to uphold. Given that, I very much doubt that you are a real doctor.

may I enquire as to your professional experience knowledge and capacity in medical administration here? What gives you authority to state what you do?

People within the profession always understand details of

what THEY deal with. Someone like you can only suppose

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[JoeLing]

And who does he expect to treat the casualties of Monday or does he not care?

Maybe he is then at the frontline and help there with first aid?!

he is a permanent secretary to the minister of health, not a paramedic.

And he is encouraging doctors and nurses to Abandon their hypocratic oath (if they adhere to such a thing in Thailand) at a time when severe civil unrest is threatened. A totally irresponsible position to take

The Hippocratic Oath is not taken by all doctors as it's not compulsory.

This oath has probably more to do with Christianity then medicine, so

doubt it very much, that doctors will swear on that oath outside Christian

influenced regions.

[tomacht8]

And an other one in clear defiance of the constitution.

CHAPTER IV

Duties of the Thai People

Section 74. A Government official, official or employee

of a Government agency, a State agency, a State enterprise or

other State official shall have a duty to act in compliance with the

law in order to protect public interests, and provide convenience

and services to the public in accordance with the good governance

principle.

In performing the duty and other acts relating to the

public, the persons under paragraph one shall be politically

impartial............

No respect for the government, no respect for the law, no respect to their own constitution

and then they talk about democracy

U do not get it.

this government is corrupt.

there are no equal rights (law) for all.

the constitution has a lot of loopholes and is outdated.

Here is no democracy, if the majority is looted from few corrupt people.

Why does he say that?

Why people feel this way?

It seems a lot of people in this country are fully feed up with these unethical politicians.

I think he, as a doctor helped more people than all the politicians together in the last 12 years!

Now my comment is not what the government or Thailand is or isn't. My comment

was about politicians who want to topple a democratically elected government in an

unconstitutional way because they say, the government acted against the constitution.

Do you get it?

Doesn't matter at all how many people he helped as a doctor but sure not in the last

12 years. As the permanent Health Secretary he's a politician not a doctor and I doubt

it very much, he will even have seen a single patient. In fact, I'm not even sure if he is

a Doctor of Medicine.?

BTW. Dr Mengele did help many people too - before he started butchering people.

Do you get it?

Suppose you don't quite understand what a constitution is!

A constitution is not something you go change ever couple of years.

A constitution has nothing to do with the present government.

Do you get it?

How can a fundamental document in a democracy whose basic function is to express

guiding national principles, establish basic rules, and limit the power of governments,

be outdated within 7 years?

USA's constitution was established in 1787 and had 27 or 28 amendments, not changes,

and has basically still the same principles as the first constitution had.

Switzerland's modern democratic constitution dates back to 1848 and did have two

total revisions in 1874 and 1999, not a change. Apart from the right of referendum and

the right of initiatives those revision did not change anything of importance in substance.

Germany's "basic rules" or "ground rules" where established in 1919 and remained in

effect throughout the existence of the "Third Reich" until 1947 when it got amended and

approved by the allied nations of the second world war. Since then, a few amendments

but no change in basic rights.

Lifespan of a constitution in Europe and Asia last in average between 19 and 32 years.

In 2006, the 1997 constitution of Thailand—considered by many a model of institutional

design adopted with extensive citizen participation—died a peaceful death in a bloodless

coup at the age of nine.

Fine tuning, amendments, revisions with the participation of all parties and the population

fair enough but an other, new constitution? Thailand's new constitution, not even 7 years

old, is still in his baby shoes. Has not even matured yet and some individuals already want

to change it? Even abolish it !!!

Maybe teach basic politics at school first, so the people of Thailand could have a real

understanding of what democracy, constitution, laws, rights and duties really mean.

Maybe then, Thailand has a democratic future which will benefit every single citizen of this

country and not just the ones who don't care about basic rules.

Do you get it?

I like to swap out arguments and learn to,

but this sentence from you:

"BTW. Dr Mengele did help many people too - before he started butchering people."

makes it difficult for me.

The comparison (or even as a mental parallel of thinking) with the OP Public Health Minister Dr Narong Sahamethapat, with Dr. Mengele is very very bad style.

And yes your sight of the current situation is the only right one.

And you are the only one, who knows what a Constitution is,

so be happy with it.

Edited January 11, 2014 by tomacht8

[Thai at Heart]

And who does he expect to treat the casualties of Monday or does he not care?

Maybe he is then at the frontline and help there with first aid?!

he is a permanent secretary to the minister of health, not a paramedic.

And he is encouraging doctors and nurses to Abandon their hypocratic oath (if they adhere to such a thing in Thailand) at a time when severe civil unrest is threatened. A totally irresponsible position to take

The Hippocratic Oath is not taken by all doctors as it's not compulsory.

This oath has probably more to do with Christianity then medicine, so

doubt it very much, that doctors will swear on that oath outside Christian

influenced regions.

We had this debate a few years ago. There are many forms of the Hippocratic oath. Thai medical students take a form of it. The original Hippocratic oath was to Greek gods written in the 5th century BC.

It is the minimum to be expected if a medical professional to at least understand his professional obligation irrespective of whether he took an oath.

[gerry1011]

This guys does not seem to care much about the health of the people who will suffer during the protests.

Irresponsible ... He should be removed from his post and sent to prison.

Sent from my HTC One using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[citizen33]

Yes I visited here before Taksin in a Professional capacity...yes I have seen many positive advancements but these were more foreign government intervention than political intervention from here.

I'm afraid that this statement betrays that you really don't know much about the inner workings of the MoPH, the NHSO and supporting organisations. ' Please trust me, I'm a doctor', really doesn't cut it in this context. If Thai policy makers had listened to what the World Bank said in 2000/2001 there would have been few advances. There was some support from foreign experts (notably from the UK, Germany and the Netherlands), but it was the senior experts in the MoPH, in alliance with some sympathetic TRT politicians such as Surapong Suebwonglee, and with the help of civil society groups, that drove the 2001 reforms.

It is difficult to transfer Western ideas about the political left and right to current Thai politics, and the example you provide of Australian doctors blocking the attack on the public healthcare system is interesting. The move to universal healthcare coverage in Thailand had been blocked for many years by the older political parties on affordability grounds, and it was only the support of TRT (probably for opportunistic reasons) that made change possible. It is true that some elements in PT have caused anxiety because they sought to increase the influence of the private healthcare sector (as when an attempt was made to change the composition of the National Health Security Board). However, many observers are also sceptical of the commitment of the Democrats to public healthcare, and suspect that they will want to curtail spending. At a guess this would translate into a narrower core benefits package for the universal coverage scheme (AKA 30 baht scheme), significantly higher co-payments for those above the lowest income levels, and increased reimbursement rates for private hospitals participating in the public insurance schemes. So if you were on the side of the anti-privatisation doctors in Australia, you might want to hesitate before taking sides in Thailand.

Edited January 11, 2014 by citizen33

[Robby nz]

This guys does not seem to care much about the health of the people who will suffer during the protests.

Irresponsible ... He should be removed from his post and sent to prison.

You still haven't got it have you Gerry.?

It was the caretaker minister who sent an order to Dr Narong ordering hospitals not to send ambulances and medical teams to help the protesters.

The Dr refused to sign that order and pass it on.

"I really feel that I am being myself after I decided to join the assembly to issue this statement," Narong told the MCOT television station. "I also was not worried about my position, as I wanted to express my political standpoint that I want reforms before the election."

However, he said he would not resign and would work to provide medical services to members of the public.

[Konini]

Short term paint for long term gain.

Scarify one to save a million.

I hope all hospital support this brave man who is willing to speak out against evil for the common good.

I hope all hospital in Bangkok show their strength and shutdown.

People can still travel outside Bangkok for treatment.

You hope all hospitals in BKK close down? I'll tell that to someone who has a child in the cancer ward shall I? Or someone who has surgery scheduled for Monday?

I hope you don't fall down a flight of stairs or anything similar on Monday if your wish comes true.

In the 8 or 9 years I've been reading then contributing to TV, I think that has truly got to be the most disgusting comment I've ever seen. I hope you're proud of yourself.

[khunken]

This guys does not seem to care much about the health of the people who will suffer during the protests.

Irresponsible ... He should be removed from his post and sent to prison.

Sent from my HTC One using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Yet again you post either a lie or ignorance of the Op.

He is a bureaucrat asking other bureaucrats to support the protestors. He did NOT suggest that hospitals close or any medical services be stopped.

Actually it was the PTP government that wanted (Tarit I think) to prosecute the BMA for having the temerity to provide sanitation services at the protest sites. Now there's diseased thinking for you.

[JAG]

No doubt if Suthep has his way he will be appointed to a better post , seeing as how he is "one of the good people".

Any bets on him being minister of health under The Dear Leaders glorious regime?

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[marcusd]

Yes I visited here before Taksin in a Professional capacity...yes I have seen many positive advancements but these were more foreign government intervention than political intervention from here.

I'm afraid that this statement betrays that you really don't know much about the inner workings of the MoPH, the NHSO and supporting organisations. ' Please trust me, I'm a doctor', really doesn't cut it in this context. If Thai policy makers had listened to what the World Bank said in 2000/2001 there would have been few advances. There was some support from foreign experts (notably from the UK, Germany and the Netherlands), but it was the senior experts in the MoPH, in alliance with some sympathetic TRT politicians such as Surapong Suebwonglee, and with the help of civil society groups, that drove the 2001 reforms.

It is difficult to transfer Western ideas about the political left and right to current Thai politics, and the example you provide of Australian doctors blocking the attack on the public healthcare system is interesting. The move to universal healthcare coverage in Thailand had been blocked for many years by the older political parties on affordability grounds, and it was only the support of TRT (probably for opportunistic reasons) that made change possible. It is true that some elements in PT have caused anxiety because they sought to increase the influence of the private healthcare sector (as when an attempt was made to change the composition of the National Health Security Board). However, many observers are also sceptical of the commitment of the Democrats to public healthcare, and suspect that they will want to curtail spending. At a guess this would translate into a narrower core benefits package for the universal coverage scheme (AKA 30 baht scheme), significantly higher co-payments for those above the lowest income levels, and increased reimbursement rates for private hospitals participating in the public insurance schemes. So if you were on the side of the anti-privatisation doctors in Australia, you might want to hesitate before taking sides in Thailand.

I understand where you are coming from and here is no forum for detailed and intracite debate.

However, there are a LOT of health professionals here sick to death of doing what they are TOLD to do and made feel OBLIGED to do. they want to use the available resources REGARDLESS of the government in control to deliver resources to the people that need it.

Unfortunately the health system needs an overhaul and many feel that as they are now visiting other nations and getting ideas. Global drug companies also have an influence.

Unlike many western nations, the government of the day appoints people to positions that they know nothing about whereas we in the west at least have a beaurocracy that at least knows a bit abut what they do.

things are changing here and I have seen that in the system. The outspoken comments of this man is but what I hope , a start of many needed reforms to deliver better care to the people. I have seen the 30 baht scheme in place and it is something I would not wih upon my dog. i attended Chon buri public hospital and there WAS NO DOCTOR for over 300 people there on the day. It was a poorly trained nurse giving out very controlled medicines and I was horrified.

NO GOVERNMENT has changed that and I speak to people in the system who DO want to change this. Lets hope positive changes commence and all this hoo haa affecting the nation now is the awakening of the sleeping bear. And Thailand actually gets something positive. Both sides, YINGLUCK and Suthep have spoken GREAT WORDS and state things that if implimented could really move this country forewards... but alas i feel again they are only words for self gain.

I only decalred my position to state that I do have some inner knowledge of this health system and I am not prepared to debate every tacit of it here.

[Smokemachine]

Medics are also voicing out their requests.

News > Local News

Medics want PM to step down

• Published: 11 Jan 2014 at 17.18
• Online news: Local News

Medical personnel at Ramathibodi Hospital have called for caretaker Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra step down and the Feb 2 election be postponed, the Post Today website reported.

It was clear that the Feb 2 poll would not settle the ongoing political conflict, as the root causes have not yet been resolved, said the statement by the group calling itself the Medical Professional Group for Democratic Reform.

The statement also noted that the new House of Representatives would not be able to convene because it was unlikely there would be 95% of the 500 MPs present, as required by law. This would be a waste of 3.8 billion baht of taxpayers' money it us costing to hold the election.

The group called on Ms Yingluck to step down immediately to open the way for a national reform. It also called for an indefinite postponement of the election.

Members demanded key reforms prior to the next election, particularly laws and regulations related to corruption prevention and suppression. As well, they called for freedom of the media in reporting the situation without any interference by any parties.

They also called on all parties to refrain from all forms of violence. Security units, they said, must provide security equally for people of all groups in order to prevent the loss of lives of Thais due to differences in political ideology.

[tomyummer]

Wow. Man's got balls. Good on him. That ministry is one of the most corrupt. His position as permanent secretary is the most important as he is there for the long term though the clown ministers above fly in and out like the wind taking their loot on the way out. Forced into the 30 baht health care scheme was bad enough. Sudarat and Chalerm were once ministers of health. Just as laughable as Yingluck as defense minister. Biggest cuts of the pie. Good on Dr. Narong for having the courage.

[tomacht8]

There must be a lot of malfunction in the medical system.
Here an article 4 weeks ago:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/688094-thai-health-minister-and-his-top-man-must-go-rds-says/

[GeorgeO]

The first big traitor. Stop this traitors salary, confiscate everything he assets.

Thaksin ... The first big traitor. Stop this traitors salary, confiscate everything he assets.