Medical workers threaten speed-up of anti-govt protest

[djjamie]

Those dreaded academics with their pesky studies and in depth analysis including evidence to back it up is a real thorn in the side of Thaksin and his 30 baht health care schemes.

http://ufdcimages.uflib.ufl.edu/UF/E0/01/15/44/00001/kanjanarat_p.pdf

In summary -

• The 30-Baht scheme failed to improve access to drug and hospital services to the population who needed it.

• A slow natural positive trend in drug utilization and hospital visit rates showing it is not likely that the health status of the population will improve. (It didn't)

  Page 124 is interesting too.

  BUT the ministry of propaganda that would have you believe that the World bank, Moody's, UNHCR, Human Rights Watch, the environmentalists, the corn farmer, the rubber farmers, academics, global economists and IMF are all wrong would want you to believe the 30 baht health care scheme was right. Why? Because it suits the PTP agenda.

That report is souley on IMPACT OF THE 30-BAHT HEALTH INSURANCE POLICY ON HOSPITAL DRUG UTILIZATION IN THAILAND.. thats all just drug utilization....

it is NOT a report on the 30 Baht scheme overall.

It has been a massive benefit to millions here, I can think of at least a dozen people I personally know who have benefited from immediate and otherwise expensively prohibitive treatment since it was introduced.

Cant believe some people still think that the poor dont deserve top class treatment if they cant afford it.Simply

Either you didn't read the key points in the report or you choose to ignore the facts.

Never ever ever let the truth get in the way of the PTP agenda lest your wearing fire retardant clothing.

[wolf5370]

I dont trust these people to provide professional and neutral medical services. They will prioritise their workload based on political preferences.

They "will", will they? How do you know that - or could it be your own discrimination that makes you not trust these people? Because of their political views no less; do you also refuse Muslim doctors based on their religious beliefs? How about black or Indian (or white if you are black or Indian) because of the colour of their skin? Sorry, but that is about as stupid a comment as I have ever seen on this site - since 2003!

Before the coup / ousting of Thaksin it was fairly quiet politically here (on TV); during the coup it was still quite friendly with all three sides being represented (that being: people who disagreed with the ousting (a minority I must admit); people against a military coup irrespective of Thaksin; and those pro-coup people - the latter two were fairly evenly split when Thaksin himself was not part of the argument). During the riots in 2010 TV went into overdrive with many. many new members (and one shot wonders) with very extreme views/support for "their" side. Fast forward to today and 2010 was mute by comparison.

The problem is both extremes are preaching to either the converted or the deaf. The rhetoric, twisting of words and sentiment, hyper-exaggeration and pure BS just doesn't wash in a forum such as this (and I am talking about both sides). It tends to work, along with a stack of promises, free booze and lunch and a back hander to help, with the masses here - this is probably because of their lack of comparison, poor education and starvation of unbiased (or even marginally biased) information/news. As westerners we tend to be better educated (and I am not necessarily talking about papers - but experience, common knowledge of world history/economics/geography/politics in a world setting/etc), certainly better informed (no language barrier to external news and history from places we have lived and family overseas), and trained to question from infancy.

So why continue with extreme, exaggerated BS and made up propaganda - it's not working, it never has here and never will - no one is "coming around" to your views, only those that have the same agenda of pushing such views as you - to some it is entertaining to read the outlandish crap you lot serve up; most I would suggest are bored or irritated by it and simply skip your comments when they get to recognise who/what you are. And yes, you know who you are, without having to name anyone, and so does anyone else! It's extremists at either end poopooing each other with equal shovel-fulls of manure, while the majority of us are stuck scrolling down past it all looking for sensible posts to read or reply to. Grow up <deleted>.

Edited January 14, 2014 by wolf5370

[geriatrickid]

This bloated old-guard bureaucracy is easily replaced. If they don't want their jobs, RESIGN.

The word "former" before their position indicates that they have resigned or retired. That does not mean that they have turned into vegetables without intelligence, experience or opinions.

With all due respect to you sir, I would argue that many were "vegetables without intelligence" long before they received their patronage appointments. My comment holds for the whole lot of them, representing every political party. How else to explain the move to reduced funding to HIV prevention during the last years of Thaksin and carried out during the military junta period, and the Abhisit period. Now that Thailand is facing an upsurge in the epidemic, the Yingluck administration started to trend back to dealing with a serious problem that never went away. Every senior health official that ignored the problem for the past decade can be said to have demonstrated poor public health management that is costing the country both in health care costs and a major hit to its labour force..

[moonao]

I dont trust these people to provide professional and neutral medical services. They will prioritise their workload based on political preferences.

They "will", will they? How do you know that - or could it be your own discrimination that makes you not trust these people? Because of their political views no less; do you also refuse Muslim doctors based on their religious beliefs? . <rant snipped>

If a confilt arises between the groups of reds and the yellows, and by positioning themselves amoungst the yellows as part of the protesters, they are automatically prioritising their services I would have thought. I could be wrong though.

As for the rest of your rant, I stopped reading after the ridiculous muslim bit.

[geriatrickid]

The poor do not deserves the 30-baht scheme.

It took too much money from the tax payer.

Please don't get me wrong, I am not saying the poor do not deserves treatment.

All I am saying is that the poor should source other financial assitance fist, like broowing from the rich relatives, or obtain donation from their local temple first, to pay for proper treatment.

The reason why there are so little doctor in Thailand is because doctors are not properly paid, hence refuse to enrol to study to become a doctor.

Most doctors now specialise in skin & beauty, so they can work of clinic like Wuttisak & Nittipon, with hundreds of branches throughout Thailand, even in small villages.

You are wrong.

I'll leave the ethical and moral aspect to those who are more compassionate and caring than I am. However, if one approaches this from an economic perspective, you are wrong in so many ways;

1. The majority of people benefiting from the 30 baht plan, are living hand to mouth. The come from families where there isn't much money. One cannot save very much on 300baht or less a day. These people do not have "rich" relatives. And even if they did, they couldn't pay them back if they had a catastrophic illness. Do you honestly think people are going to hand over 15, 20, 50 thousand to relatives? Many people will not do that. And even if they did, you are saying that people should go into debt, a debt that they could never hope to repay unless they sold their children into bondage.

2. Local temples are not quick to hand out large amounts of money to the poor. They don't do it now, so why would you expect them to change?

Are you aware that Thailand has a labour shortage? Every male between the ages of 15 and 45 who is critically ill or who dies because of illness, hurts the economy. It means that there are not enough workers available to work in the fields, the factories, the hotels, and all the other crappy low paying jobs that have to be filled. It means that the military can't make its annual quota for conscription, forcing the military to compete with the private sector for young males. Do you know what the result is? Increased costs.

Do you understand what happens when a country does not intervene to stop infectious diseases like TB? An epidemic occurs and people drop dead.

TB is one of the most difficult of diseases to treat and it can be expensive. However, the biggest cost is that of compliance. When patients don't take their meds they put the general population at risk. Do you want to accept that personal risk all because some poor shmo couldn't afford his medication?

When basic healthcare issues go untreated we all suffer. The farm worker with glaucoma can't work and becomes a burden. The diabetic who needs insulin incurs more serious injury. The car crash victims who are left crippled because they cannot afford to pay for basic care etc. etc.

There isn't a doctor shortage in Thailand. rather, there is a shortage in Thailand's rural areas, just as there are in Australia's, Russia Canada's and even in the USA's rural areas. The doctors want more money. Doesn't everyone. However, there comes a point when people can't pay the money the doctors want. Even though many of these doctors paid high tuition fees, those tuitions don't even cover a fraction of the cost to train them. The universities where they were taught, the hospitals where they trained and the grnts they have been given both direct and indirect are funded by the people of Thailand. The VAT that's collected on purchases that poor people make helps pay for that. The government mandated low wages paid to the majority of workers in the agriculture, industrial and service sector all indirectly subsidize those doctors' (and yours and mine) lifestyles. Without those workers, the doctor is going to find it hard to flush his toilet because no one will be there to dredge the waste from the klong etc.

Doctors are important, but so too are a hospital's orderlies, cooks, cleaners and technical staff. The doctor can't function without them. Everyone wants a higher wage. Unfortunately, one has to be realistic and recognize that there is finite amount of money available. I suppose if some of the doctors actually paid their full income taxes and the middle class and wealthy started paying their actual income tax, there would be more money to pay the doctors. until then, Thailand can't pay the large amounts some of the doctors want.

[wolf5370]

I dont trust these people to provide professional and neutral medical services. They will prioritise their workload based on political preferences.

They "will", will they? How do you know that - or could it be your own discrimination that makes you not trust these people? Because of their political views no less; do you also refuse Muslim doctors based on their religious beliefs? . <rant snipped>

If a confilt arises between the groups of reds and the yellows, and by positioning themselves amoungst the yellows as part of the protesters, they are automatically prioritising their services I would have thought. I could be wrong though.

As for the rest of your rant, I stopped reading after the ridiculous muslim bit.

Yes of course you did

[moonao]

...not.

[wolf5370]

This bloated old-guard bureaucracy is easily replaced. If they don't want their jobs, RESIGN.

The word "former" before their position indicates that they have resigned or retired. That does not mean that they have turned into vegetables without intelligence, experience or opinions.

With all due respect to you sir, I would argue that many were "vegetables without intelligence" long before they received their patronage appointments. My comment holds for the whole lot of them, representing every political party. How else to explain the move to reduced funding to HIV prevention during the last years of Thaksin and carried out during the military junta period, and the Abhisit period. Now that Thailand is facing an upsurge in the epidemic, the Yingluck administration started to trend back to dealing with a serious problem that never went away. Every senior health official that ignored the problem for the past decade can be said to have demonstrated poor public health management that is costing the country both in health care costs and a major hit to its labour force..

The HIV point is an interesting one - I remember, perhaps getting on for 20 years ago now, that it once was that when you took a hotel room you got clean towels, soap, shampoo and condoms free. Being somewhat surprised they gave them to my mother, I enquired with the bell hop that showed us in and he explained that it was law - this was up in Chiang Rai back when the bridge was made of wood and white faces were a rarity (immigration guy was in a small hut in the middle of the bridge - he was most friendly and welcoming, handing out oranges to us and joking with my wife (fiancée back then)). I do not know when this stopped happening, but it was a step backwards when it did, to my way of thinking. There was talk of condom vending machines in college toilets (both male and female) and even Matiom - but I think the Mary Whitehouse's of the country put pay to that - at least as a compulsory rule/law.

As for the 30 baht medical, it can not be taken away that it was Thaksin's government that did look at getting medical for the masses - flawed as the system was. Thaksin's government suffered the same problem as the present one does, it is seemingly so dependent on a corrupt infrastructure, that even policies that could do great good fall fail of it. The problem with pre-Thaksin governments was the blatant ignoring of the masses. Love him or hate him, Thaksin certainly changed politics in the country fundamentally - one of the Dems major policies was the health care system, without Thaksin, it is doubtful this would have even been on the agenda.

[Wat dee]

This bloated old-guard bureaucracy is easily replaced. If they don't want their jobs, RESIGN.

Of course they want their jobs - they just want a new and Democratic government and it is their right to air their views and give their opinion!!

These are educated people that can see the corruption and disrespect for the constitution that this government practices and it goes against their principles to support such actions from a government that has lost all legitimacy

What is wrong with this I would like you to tell me?.

Are you sure they want Democratic government ??

[fasteddie]

Since the political turmoil started in Bangkok two months ago, 286 people have been injured and three killed. About 15 have been admitted to hospitals in Bangkok.

So the other 5 dead obviously recovered again. That's nice.

Just shows the massive support from very highly academic people this protest has attracted. In total contrast the the other side attracting the brainless thugs who couldn't reason their way out of a paper bag without a GPS (if someone showed them how to use one).

That goes for the farang too. Seems like the most reasonable and intelligent farang have the capacity to reason and see the entire scope of the problems while the obvious sub-intellects seem to cling on to the democracy argument not even realising that where a democracy is broken, there is NO democracy.

Your avatar says it all.

[diceq]

Of course they want their jobs - they just want a new and Democratic government and it is their right to air their views and give their opinion!!

These are educated people that can see the corruption and disrespect for the constitution that this government practices and it goes against their principles to support such actions from a government that has lost all legitimacy

What is wrong with this I would like you to tell me?.

They want a new democratic government by replacing it with an unelected council. And then you ask what's wrong with that. Jesus &lt;deleted&gt; christ.

Edited January 14, 2014 by diceq

[icommunity]

The medical workers should join protest as an individual not as a group. My wife, a medical professional say this is humiliating the medical professionals. Medical works should be considered as essential work of the country and cannot be disrupted or used as a pressure tool. This is against humanity. Many do not want to be part of the protest but were 'force' to. I don't think we want to see a divide among the medical workers like that of doctors and nurses were barred to attend to the REDshirt/UDD.

Edited January 14, 2014 by icommunity

[JRSoul]

This bloated old-guard bureaucracy is easily replaced. If they don't want their jobs, RESIGN.

The word "former" before their position indicates that they have resigned or retired. That does not mean that they have turned into vegetables without intelligence, experience or opinions.

With all due respect to you sir, I would argue that many were "vegetables without intelligence" long before they received their patronage appointments. My comment holds for the whole lot of them, representing every political party. How else to explain the move to reduced funding to HIV prevention during the last years of Thaksin and carried out during the military junta period, and the Abhisit period. Now that Thailand is facing an upsurge in the epidemic, the Yingluck administration started to trend back to dealing with a serious problem that never went away. Every senior health official that ignored the problem for the past decade can be said to have demonstrated poor public health management that is costing the country both in health care costs and a major hit to its labour force..

It's a pity that you didn't read my post 3 after that before replying; it could have saved my answering. Thakin's B30 scheme was introduced without adequate funding and EVERY existing program had to be cut back as hospitals struggled to avoid bankruptcy. It was fine for him to bask in the glory (many were led to believe HE was paying for it) while others were left to cope with the problems caused.

[barrybankruad]

Those dreaded academics with their pesky studies and in depth analysis including evidence to back it up is a real thorn in the side of Thaksin and his 30 baht health care schemes.

http://ufdcimages.uflib.ufl.edu/UF/E0/01/15/44/00001/kanjanarat_p.pdf

In summary -

• The 30-Baht scheme failed to improve access to drug and hospital services to the population who needed it.

• A slow natural positive trend in drug utilization and hospital visit rates showing it is not likely that the health status of the population will improve. (It didn't)

  Page 124 is interesting too.

  BUT the ministry of propaganda that would have you believe that the World bank, Moody's, UNHCR, Human Rights Watch, the environmentalists, the corn farmer, the rubber farmers, academics, global economists and IMF are all wrong would want you to believe the 30 baht health care scheme was right. Why? Because it suits the PTP agenda.

I tried to read the link but I'm afraid the medical jargon was beyond me. However to quote one man's nine year old paper as being proof of the failure of the 30 baht scheme flies in the face of other evidence given by individuals and organisations that state the scheme has been a success. Just Google 'Results of Thailand 30 Baht Health Scheme'. There are many reports there stating the it has been (to varying degrees) sucessful. Here's just one of them

http://asiancorrespondent.com/106809/new-research-continues-to-demonstrate-the-success-of-thailands-universal-coverage-healthcare-scheme/

[SICHONSTEVE]

This bloated old-guard bureaucracy is easily replaced. If they don't want their jobs, RESIGN.

Of course they want their jobs - they just want a new and Democratic government and it is their right to air their views and give their opinion!!

These are educated people that can see the corruption and disrespect for the constitution that this government practices and it goes against their principles to support such actions from a government that has lost all legitimacy

What is wrong with this I would like you to tell me?.

Are you sure they want Democratic government ??

Yes, be it PTP or Democrat - but without the shinawatra's and with reforms in place (coming from fair elections held after those reforms).

In other words, exactly the same as Suthep demands!!

[tingtongteesood]

Since the political turmoil started in Bangkok two months ago, 286 people have been injured and three killed. About 15 have been admitted to hospitals in Bangkok.

So the other 5 dead obviously recovered again. That's nice.

Just shows the massive support from very highly academic people this protest has attracted. In total contrast the the other side attracting the brainless thugs who couldn't reason their way out of a paper bag without a GPS (if someone showed them how to use one).

That goes for the farang too. Seems like the most reasonable and intelligent farang have the capacity to reason and see the entire scope of the problems while the obvious sub-intellects seem to cling on to the democracy argument not even realising that where a democracy is broken, there is NO democracy.

Well poisonous, you would do well to remember that the educated middle classes are easy to dupe and slow to realize their mistake. The nazis and fascists in 1930's Europe were quick to learn this and used it to their advantage. Fascism is alive and well and desperately trying to get a foothold in Thailand. The intelligensia will eventually realize this, but by then it will be too late.

This 'fascism' argument is really wrong and lame. Try making a rational argument instead of just bandieing about the word fascism in response to everything....We are talking about the 30 baht medical scheme, let's talk about that and put yo9ur biased stereotyping aside for a a few minutes....

[tingtongteesood]

When your political differences are affecting health-care for the most vulnerable in society, it is time for both sides to put down their whistles, bullhorns and placards, and start discussing matters like mature human beings, before even one sick person dies from lack of care. To be extremely sick is to be in an infernal daily prison, a matter above and beyond trifling matters like which politician gets to wear the shiny hat for a few years. Doctors and nurses understand this dimension of total suffering, their lives are devoted to ease the pain for these unfortunate people. Politicians should follow medical workers in great respect and humility, not the other way round.

Whilst I agree with you entirely it is painfully obvious that not all "Doctors and nurses understand this dimension of total suffering" or if they do they have a strange way of showing it. Being "devoted to ease the pain for these unfortunate people" hasn't stopped them from joining sutheps roadshow.

I have every respect for those Doctors and nurses who remain at work, along with the often overlooked ancilliary workers, the cleaners, the cooks, the porters who are essential to keep the whole thing going - I have none whatsoever for those who have joined the protests.

And does it say they joined the protests INSTEAD of going to work ? Nope ! Maybe they are there on their own time and will go to work when it is their shift.

You are always so quick to judge without any facts. They are anti Taksin so to you that automatically makes them bad people because they don't agree with your views and you must find some way, any way you can regardless of the facts to say something bad about them....

[Muhendis]

Sorry to deflate your little historical revisionist efforts Gentleman Jim and Poster djjamie above...When Thaksin introduced the 30-baht hospital program, Chuan Lel Pai opposed it. He has not been known to be the source of many "brain children" anyway...When Thaksin promoted his 30-baht scheme as potential relief for every disease, Mr. Chuan reiterated that The 30-baht scheme will instead amount to death for every disease (or something to that effect)...That discourse aside, of the many programs for ordinary people spawned by Thaksin, and derided as Populist by his political opposites, this hospital policy is the cornerstone of subsequent electoral success. No single initiative offered such 'dignity' to the underclasses...Just imagine arriving at the hospital in dire medical straits, only to be turned away for lack of funds...Imagine ! ! ! They were selling land in order to afford such care in some cases...To deride that program based on agenda, is 'political agenda' run amok. To imply inferior hospital care also doesn't stand analyitical support...Hospital care before and after did not change appreciably.

Moving on, as they say. This highlights the main problem of the political ineptitude in this otherwise wonderful country. It is less than acceptable to come out with well meaning, grandiose schemes if you don't first find out how to pay for them. The most obvious one is, of course, the rice pledging scheme. This, together with trying to circumvent the law for the benefit of Thaksin, is why there are now so many unhappy voters on the streets of Bangkok.

[citizen33]

The problem that I have with the anti-government side is that whenever they talk about anything I know about from first-hand experience, they show a complete lack of knowledge of the detail of what happened, Leekpai did not design the 30 baht project, and indeed the Democratic politicians told the MoPH experts (such as Dr Sanguan) who were the primary designers of the scheme that it was unaffordable.

As to the academic evidence cited above as proof of the failure of the scheme, why would you look at a 2005 thesis by a beginner with little research money when you could read the work of experts with major project funding?. Look here instead.

http://www.ilo.org/gimi/gess/RessShowRessource.do?ressourceId=28441

www.hsri.or.th/sites/default/files/browse/tor1.pdf

http://ghlc.lshtm.ac.uk/

Of course, the usual suspects will say that this thread is not the place to debate the detail, but they simply destroy their credibility through their crass ignorance.

[3NUMBAS]

they have been limited in charging extortionate fees without competition to curb their excess

[fasteddie]

This bloated old-guard bureaucracy is easily replaced. If they don't want their jobs, RESIGN.

Just like Yingluck eh? Oh no, big brother the caddy and strategic thinker won't let her.

Why should anyone resign ? Just because they have a view against a very corrupt caretaker government clinging on to power?

"a very corrupt caretaker government clinging on to power?"

Or to put it another way, "a no more corrupt than any other government elected by a majority of the voters".

[Emptyset]

Just look at the broad section of the population that come out to protest. For the PTP it is the rice farmers. For the DEMS it is unions, students, tax payers, teachers, academics, public servants and doctors and the list keeps growing. A broad section of popular support is called a democracy. A narrow supporter base is called a dictatorship. It comes as no surprise that the medical profession is against the current regime either. Look no further than the failed 30 baht health care scheme to understand the contempt TS has for the poor. 70% of hospitals became unprofitable and unable to pay their staff. A lot closed down due to bankruptcy. The poor had to travel greater distances to get health care. The care was substandard because the govt were unable to make up the shortfall thus doctors had no choice but to offer the services to people with more money. Absolute disaster. Though the ministry of propaganda would have you believe differently…………..Because it won votes. It is all a conspiracy against the PTP. The ministry would have you believe that the World bank, Moody's, UNHCR, Human Rights Watch, the environmentalists, the corn farmer, the rubber farmers, academics, global economists and IMF all have "incentives" too. It is the world against the PTP. And it seems the doctors are part of it too now. The list keeps growing. There are children at the protest today too. Did the PTP take toys from them to fund the subsidy of the rice scheme which they have still not paid to the farmers? Or do we wait for an official "children's incentive" from the ministry of propaganda before replying. Better let the all powerful number one brother plant the train of thought before replying me thinks.

Ok let's look at your broad section. For the PTP I don't dispute that it is a group that can be categorized as the "have nots" of which rice farmers form a large part. However, when almost 1/2 of the economy is comprised of the agricultural sector, of whom the majority are on subsistence wages, it is to be expected. You reference unions. When did Thailand have a significant unionized workforce? Are you aware that less than 3% of Thailand's workforce is unionized? The only union with any significant participation in the protest is the Thai Airways union. As you know, the union is currently feuding with the government over some important changes that need to be made at the airline, including redundancies and control of the retirement pension plan that is no longer sustainable. The Thai union has previously stated it will exact revenge upon the government and this is it. Have you noticed, that none of the industrial unions are participating? Why's that? Where's the Gypsum sector? After all Thailand is the 2nd largest producer in the world. What about the miners?

Students? Really? Sorry, but the turnout from the reputable universities such as Mahidol, Chula and Thammasat isn't significant. The students for the most part have kept their distance from both the government and Suthep. If you mean RamaK, well, yes I suppose technically it is a university, an "open" university, but students hang around there for years, never completing their course of studies. I don't think any reputable academic outside ofThailand would be as generous with the term university, but it is what it is and yes some of the Rama K folks are in attendance.

Academics? Sorry, but there are just as many academics who side with the government as oppose it. and there are even more who want no part of this protest.

Yep, and some of the country's most reknowned academics have formed the '2 yeses, 2 nos group' (yes to the election, yes to reform, no to the people's council, not to a coup). As for the students, well, there were also fairly large pro-election protests at Chula, Thammasat etc, so to claim that all or most of them are on Suthep's side is wrong.

[tilac2]

Since the political turmoil started in Bangkok two months ago, 286 people have been injured and three killed. About 15 have been admitted to hospitals in Bangkok.

So the other 5 dead obviously recovered again. That's nice.

Just shows the massive support from very highly academic people this protest has attracted. In total contrast the the other side attracting the brainless thugs who couldn't reason their way out of a paper bag without a GPS (if someone showed them how to use one).

That goes for the farang too. Seems like the most reasonable and intelligent farang have the capacity to reason and see the entire scope of the problems while the obvious sub-intellects seem to cling on to the democracy argument not even realising that where a democracy is broken, there is NO democracy.

Your last para above is what we "obvious sub-intellects" describe as an ad hominem argument. I'm frankly amazed that you should write about a "democracy argument" and say that "democracy is broken" in Thailand. Democracy is not an "argument", it is an ideal. It is not "broken" in Thailand, because it has never been properly applied. Democracy means that the majority of the people decide governance and are the final authority. Yet here in Thailand there always seems to be some "other authority" waiting in the wings, ready to overturn the people's will when it suits them.

That is evidently what you and so many other farang elite on this forum are hoping for in this instance. You don't seem to like it that the "peasants" of Isaan should have their say, but here's the deal: the "peasants" (and that's not what they are, by the way) are in the ascendant. They understand the issues and they know that they are in the majority. Suthep is trying to make a last stand against them in defence of privilege. I believe that he will lose, if not this time then next time. He is fighting against history because "one person one vote" is clearly going to win in the end, despite anything that out-of-date farangs and Thais want to happen.

[citizen33]

"So I take it that every bright idea that surfaces during the tenure of a Government is credited to the Civil Servants that devise them rather than crediting the PM and Governing party at the time. Regardless of the idea if it occurs during a PM's watch then they are generally credited with it...no?"

No, not when the government told the civil servants, in this case a small number of senior experts in the MoPH, that their plans were unaffordable. Actually many of the people concerned were predisposed towards the Democrat government side, but they ended up working with TRT to break the log jam, mainly through the personal relationship between Sanguan Niitayarumphong (who went on to become the NHSO's first Secretary General) and Surapong Suebwonglee (the TRT politician). Leekpai had no positive role; the plan for the 30 baht project was not official government policy during his tenure. I don't know if this is written up in detail anywhere, but I have spoken first hand in the distant past to two of the three about it (not Leekpai). You'll see a brief mention of what happened in the first link I posted earlier in the thread.