You Don't Understand - Finally Understood!

[Curt1591]

To the OP can I ask, in which country were you educated, and to what level? I'm from the UK, and I can't relate to anything you have said in relation to 'western education'...

I am from the States, Southern California to be more exact.

My formal education ended at the start of my 3rd year of Uni. School finally interfered far too much with my drinking. This was around 1970, long before political correctness invaded.

Half-pissed most of the time, and rarely taking a book home, I carried a 3.3 GPA.

Mid 70's I gave up drinking. Found a great job, which I really enjoyed. Started making more money than I could spend the next day. Did OK; I quit working at 50.

Never went back to school. But, I will never finished with my education.

I try to live by Bob Dylan's famous line "He who is not busy being born, is busy dying."

[CIHUAHUA]

In my discussions, unless it directly affects me, I rarely take a position; I simply question the proposed position. I am not trying to expound my views; I am trying to understand theirs, and maybe, in the process, re-enforce, or help them understand their own views.

As implied in my post, I, too, think a lot of it is due to the fact that most will simply nod yes and move on. When questioned, many become uncomfortable and simply want to walk away (can't be bothered).

During my schooling, I often took opposing views, sometimes simply to offer a counterpoint. Most teachers were initially offended. But, when I explained that questioning a premise will often lead to actually thinking about it, most - at least the good ones - appreciated the discussions generated.

Rather than establishing who's right, or who's wrong, I prefer to try to understand why. Often "what" is isn't as important as "why" …..

(Hope I didn't lose Spoonman again)

I mean no disrespect when I say this. In a college the educators want a student to take all sides so they may learn to defend or understand both sides. Not everything can be discussed in the real world like that. Not everything in the real world is black or white. In the real world we try to solve problems unlike University where we learn to detect problems. The statement "You are not Thai therefore you don't understand" reminds me of teenagers talking to their parents saying; "your not a teenager -you don't understand." It may be true that if you are not Thai then you will never understand however understanding human nature is understanding "Thai".

[Curt1591]

In my discussions, unless it directly affects me, I rarely take a position; I simply question the proposed position. I am not trying to expound my views; I am trying to understand theirs, and maybe, in the process, re-enforce, or help them understand their own views.

As implied in my post, I, too, think a lot of it is due to the fact that most will simply nod yes and move on. When questioned, many become uncomfortable and simply want to walk away (can't be bothered).

During my schooling, I often took opposing views, sometimes simply to offer a counterpoint. Most teachers were initially offended. But, when I explained that questioning a premise will often lead to actually thinking about it, most - at least the good ones - appreciated the discussions generated.

Rather than establishing who's right, or who's wrong, I prefer to try to understand why. Often "what" is isn't as important as "why" …..

(Hope I didn't lose Spoonman again)

I mean no disrespect when I say this. In a college the educators want a student to take all sides so they may learn to defend or understand both sides. Not everything can be discussed in the real world like that. Not everything in the real world is black or white. …...

The problem I have run into, in many instances, Thais will see things as black or white. Asking why is you when get the "You don't understand."

Yes, it is simply a cop out. But, what I find interesting is how widespread it is in Thailand. Is there anyone reading this that hasn't heard this, often? Have anyone heard it to any great extent anywhere else?

[mimithewoof]

Iam a westerner and I do not understand what the hell you are dribbling about.

TL;DR - "you don't understand Thai culture" actually means "our way is the only right way"

But this same attitude is most often exactly the cause of the farang criticizing the Thai way.

I think what it really means is "you are a foreigner so shut up about how you think things could be improved here"

And I think that's a perfectly valid POV

Sorry, guys, we all, no matter where we come from, live in the real world, a world where countless wars have been started by those who don't consider others' points of view as anything but unacceptable. In wars, people lose their homes,lives, business, hopes and dreams, and no-one over the millenia has ever found a way to stop war.

Insecurity breeds prejudice, and there's an excess of both in Thailand right now. On this forum there are posters slamming Thais, Thais slamming foreigners and others slamming anyone who doesn't confirm with their views, however damaging they may be.

Enacting the same confrontations which have brought this country to this moment in time seems pretty useless to me, especially when images of Egypt, Syria et al spring to mind. Today's Guardian article explains both sides of the issue and, as a general comment, being prejudiced against isn't a justified excuse for returning the disfavour.

Whether it's the Thai way, the Brit way,or any other damn way, the crunch is that we all need the same things in life, and our needs need to be respected in order for us to improve our lives. How we express those needs is, in the end, up to us, but violence and prejudice are never the answers.

So no, 'shutting up' is NOT a valid POV - finding a way to communicate is.

[Bantex]

Just because westerners don't always know what Thai's mean does not mean that the Thai knows either!

[Bantex]

Just because westerners don't always know what Thai's mean does not mean that the Thai knows either!

[impulse]

10 years living in China convinced me that, if you didn't grow up there, you don't understand much of what's going on around you. 3 years in Thailand has convinced me of the same here.

If I believed my western education prepared me for a life in China, or Thailand (or any of Asia, really), I was deluded.

The only thing that's prepared me for a life here in Thailand is the bank account that came with me, and the paycheck I get from working for a western based company. Without one or the other, I'd be a goner.

Testament to that is every "poorly educated" Thai woman living in a foreigner funded house with her Thai guy, and the thousands of posts in hundreds of threads from guys licking their wounds after being taken to the cleaners by 3rd grade educated Thai people of various genders and capacities.

Go to a farmer's market back home and everyone pays the same for a pound of peaches from Mrs. Smith's stall. Go to a farmers' market here, and I can promise you I'll be paying more for a kilogram of bananas than the Thai lady who comes after me. I can gripe and whine all I want about dual pricing and being cheated, but it comes down to- I never learned to negotiate on a daily basis. Never had to- the price was always clearly marked and the same for everyone.

Asians pop out of the womb into a world of complex relationships I don't understand at all. While I'm just chewing the fat with them, they're sizing me up to determine my social status, what favors I may be able to bestow, my weaknesses and whether it's worth while to become my "friend". Because that's what they learned growing up- you can make a better life for yourself with relationships than you can on mathematics, hard work and creativity.

So when I hear someone in Asia say, "You're not from here, you don't understand", they're usually right.

Edited January 16, 2014 by impulse

[Mrchipps]

Well, i will say it in nother way,if we try to understand why a beutyful thaiwoman choose an ugly farang without Money and that she move across the World ,cleaning his house,clothes,help him every wednesday,friday,saturday,sunday cleaning up toilet from all he eat and especially drink ,and taking care of him every day,even have sex with him and kiss his stinking mouth who is like old cheese she even accept that he hit her and shout at her every day...............then i will say,yes we dont understand thai's

thinking.

BUT ofcourse we are a bunch of guys who understand and take care of "our" mia,and her (our) thai family

so what Moore is to understand.

I have giving up to dig to much in it even if i know that thaippl are very proud at to be just thai,they love there king and country and now even the farang who is a new familymember some Dream that the farang have the solution about Money but the most of them understand that the farang there daughter married dont have any Money and that he use the most of them on booze.........

I dont even Think about the political situation its non of my bussines and what i really Think i keep for my self and i hope that Thailand solve this very fast cos i Think many farang and Tourist will find Another paradise to be in there holidays. Thailand are a rich country and tourism is not that big they can afford to have less,at least hven thehave there riceproduction ,etc etc.......but if the riceproduction have one failure all will go down,so this i Think 8% tourism is very important in the long term,i do also Believe that the foreigners who buy house in Thailand are a very important part of the future Thailand

woooa now i wrote to much agai 5555

anyway its my opinion

[movsrus]

I hear that from my GF-"You are a foreigner and you don't understand Thai people" to which I reply "You are right but it is my time and my money and if I don't understand I am not going to participate."

That usually ends the discussion.

[Gandtee]

I think most posters who have replied to this do not understand sarcasm. At least, I think it is sarcasm

[samran]

what don't you understand? There is often a plausible explanation for everything. You just might not like the answer...

[drand11]

I assume there is lots of sarcasm intended. Truly speaking, we have the same in usa. Rich/ poor separation and they see things totally from 2 different points of view. Redshirts/yellow shirts just come frome 2 different points of view. But remember, differring points of view / varying education does NOT mean the jndividual has any less valued vote! One person, One Vote!!

[krisb]

Thai education is very practical.

They teach the children what they need to get by in life.

Here in Issan, they have many celebrations and special "days" at school.

There is at least one event per month where each class will get up in front of the students and parents and perform a dance.

As a result, the girls in school are always practicing and rehearsing dance routines every day.

More time is spent on dancing and entertaining than on math or science

These are the same girls who later get out of school and move to Pattaya, Phuket or Bangkok and make a pretty good living "dancing" and " entertaining"..

The Thai schools in Isaan do a great job of preparing the Issan girls to work the bars.

We all know the best bar girls and coyote dancers are from Issan!

The boys?

They just muddle through and end up on farms or factories and get a girl who will send the money home to build a house or buy a truck..

Except the boys who will grow up be ladyboys, they work on the dancing too!

They also grow up to" entertain" in the southern cities of Thailand.

The OP is correct.

They know what these people need to learn and that is what they teach them!

I wish I was being sarcastic, but, I am not.

link_to_bargirls.jpg

God your a rude pig.

This whole general forum is full of crap like yours and shame on Thaivisa for allowing this mindless garbage and slander against not only Thailand as a country but our Thai partners.

Silly willy you are.

[SouthernMan3]

"Anyone who has spent enough time in Thailand to discuss issues deeper than "What's for dinner?", has heard these fatal words: "You are not Thai; you don't understand.""

I've been here for 30+ years and I haven't heard this in decades.........

[jackr]

"You are not Thai; you don't understand."

... means, you don't know that we don't know <deleted> we're talking about... and, more importantly, you shouldn't be asking questions that we (they) don't know the answer to. There is no deep meaning, sorry, and I would avoid going native and denouncing your Western education and ability to think sideways.

[somchaiq]

Thai people are fortunate to have teachers that know what should be learned. The academics are nice enough to decide what is proper to learn and what is not to be allowed

There must be a lot of sarcasm in this post.

In Thailand Government Schools Teacher many Times teaching something they never learned. A simple Sample is English Language. How can somebody teach English, who never learned the Language?

There are not much poor Academics, since the poor parents cannot afford to pay the so-called "Tea money" so that their kids can go to a good school and get a better education. Right now at some schools you have not only to pay some hundred thousand Baht to get your kid in, they asking also for a credit from you for 3 - 5 years without paying you interest!

[thailiketoo]

In my discussions, unless it directly affects me, I rarely take a position; I simply question the proposed position. I am not trying to expound my views; I am trying to understand theirs, and maybe, in the process, re-enforce, or help them understand their own views.

As implied in my post, I, too, think a lot of it is due to the fact that most will simply nod yes and move on. When questioned, many become uncomfortable and simply want to walk away (can't be bothered).

During my schooling, I often took opposing views, sometimes simply to offer a counterpoint. Most teachers were initially offended. But, when I explained that questioning a premise will often lead to actually thinking about it, most - at least the good ones - appreciated the discussions generated.

Rather than establishing who's right, or who's wrong, I prefer to try to understand why. Often "what" is isn't as important as "why" …..

(Hope I didn't lose Spoonman again)

I mean no disrespect when I say this. In a college the educators want a student to take all sides so they may learn to defend or understand both sides. Not everything can be discussed in the real world like that. Not everything in the real world is black or white. In the real world we try to solve problems unlike University where we learn to detect problems. The statement "You are not Thai therefore you don't understand" reminds me of teenagers talking to their parents saying; "your not a teenager -you don't understand." It may be true that if you are not Thai then you will never understand however understanding human nature is understanding "Thai".

No disrespect but except in fru fru disciplines in college the instructors want you to learn a set of facts and apply them in the same way you are taught. In other words, you do not need to reinvent the wheel to get a degree. A BS degree in petroleum geology is about finding stuff underground. The college professor will tell you how to do that. You don't tell the professor anything.

[atyclb]

Iam a westerner and I do not understand what the hell you are dribbling about.

TL;DR - "you don't understand Thai culture" actually means "our way is the only right way"

But this same attitude is most often exactly the cause of the farang criticizing the Thai way.

I think what it really means is "you are a foreigner so shut up about how you think things could be improved here"

And I think that's a perfectly valid POV

My japanese, korean, chinese, singapore friends that live in thailand say the same things westerners say. basically little or no reason, logic, analytical, critical thinking skills nor reliability, punctuality, hindsight, foresight (exceptions duly noted)

[thailiketoo]

My japanese, korean, chinese, singapore friends that live in thailand say the same things westerners say. basically little or no reason, logic, analytical, critical thinking skills nor reliability, punctuality, hindsight, foresight (exceptions duly noted)

An example of critical thinking in any business where a Thai is employed please. In other words an example of critical thinking that you or your Korean, Chinese and Singapore friends do that a Thai person can not do?

Now for the others reading this thread, I'll tell you in advance my question will not be answered and I will be attacked for broaching one of the sacred cows of Thai Visa pseudo scholars, and that is critical thinking. No one at a level of management posting on Thai Visa actually knows what critical thinking is let alone do some of it.

But I am more than happy to be proved wrong. Just tell me how you practice critical thinking at your job in Thailand that a Thai can not do.

Edited January 16, 2014 by thailiketoo

[thailandbeachisland]

You think too MUTT !

I love you long time better <3

Edited January 16, 2014 by thailandbeachisland

[wym]

But I am more than happy to be proved wrong. Just tell me how you practice critical thinking at your job in Thailand that a Thai can not do.

Sure. Job I had in an international IT services company, required upward/downward 360 degree staff performance reviews. Production staff had to objectively review the job performance of their peers, support staff and most importantly, management immediately above and two more levels up.

The bottom performers, between 8 and 15% of the company was sacked each year to make room for fresh blood and to trim the deadwood, including from upper management, as the result of reviews given by their subordinates. Top performers got bonuses, promotions and/or schedule/location first choice, and each staff member got a clear list of areas needing improvement and concrete performance goals for the following year.

This was done strictly from the POV of objective value added aimed at improving the overall performance of the company, no personality politics or favoritism allowed or you were out.

I don't see any of this being possible in a Thai business environment.

Now let's talk about original research being conducted in universities, technology innovations coming from Thai companies.

[thailiketoo]

But I am more than happy to be proved wrong. Just tell me how you practice critical thinking at your job in Thailand that a Thai can not do.

Sure. Job I had in an international IT services company, required upward/downward 360 degree staff performance reviews. Production staff had to objectively review the job performance of their peers, support staff and most importantly, management immediately above and two more levels up.

The bottom performers, between 8 and 15% of the company was sacked each year to make room for fresh blood and to trim the deadwood, including from upper management, as the result of reviews given by their subordinates. Top performers got bonuses, promotions and/or schedule/location first choice, and each staff member got a clear list of areas needing improvement and concrete performance goals for the following year.

This was done strictly from the POV of objective value added aimed at improving the overall performance of the company, no personality politics or favoritism allowed or you were out.

I don't see any of this being possible in a Thai business environment.

Now let's talk about original research being conducted in universities, technology innovations coming from Thai companies.

I didn't ask you and the post was not addressed to you. Nor did you present an example of critical thinking a Thai could not do and I really don't see any reason to try and duplicate Silicon Vally in Thailand. The same reason it was stupid for Malaysia to make its own car (After 27 years it's still a flop). Dumb dumb dumb.

[wym]

No disrespect but except in fru fru disciplines in college the instructors want you to learn a set of facts and apply them in the same way you are taught. In other words, you do not need to reinvent the wheel to get a degree. A BS degree in petroleum geology is about finding stuff underground. The college professor will tell you how to do that. You don't tell the professor anything.

You perfectly illustrate the point.

I assume what you call "fru fru" disciplines are the liberal arts, aimed at teaching the student howto think, philosophy political economics.

Whereas what you value seems to be more work/career oriented, where the education system is designed to produce obedient workers ready to slot into a corporate pigeonhole.

That's called job training, not true education IMO.

At the Jesuit university I attended, most classes after gut intro level were small round-table seminars, where the prof's job was to lay out different positions and the students were expected to challenge them, take them apart show original thinking and prove the prof wrong if they could.

Anyone who just sat there and took notes, thinking they were just there to learn a body of information and regurgitate it was sure to fail the course.

Western business and law schools - the good ones anyway - are based on case study, real-world debate and practice, not memorizing canned presentations.

I haven't come across much of this in Thai tertiary education, except perhaps to some extent at Sasin.

[tingtong]

"Here, in Thailand, people are taught in a structured atmosphere. Thai people are fortunate to have teachers that know what should be learned. The academics are nice enough to decide what is proper to learn and what is not to be allowed. This helps the educated society think the proper thought.

So, in the end, we Westerners are, once again, a rude, crude, undisciplined bunch. We are liable to believe or disbelieve just about anything There is no way we will ever understand. We have not had a proper education."

OP, you lost me.

try to be sarcastic, or is this is for real?

[thailiketoo]

No disrespect but except in fru fru disciplines in college the instructors want you to learn a set of facts and apply them in the same way you are taught. In other words, you do not need to reinvent the wheel to get a degree. A BS degree in petroleum geology is about finding stuff underground. The college professor will tell you how to do that. You don't tell the professor anything.

You perfectly illustrate the point.

I assume what you call "fru fru" disciplines are the liberal arts, aimed at teaching the student howto think, philosophy political economics.

Whereas what you value seems to be more work/career oriented, where the education system is designed to produce obedient workers ready to slot into a corporate pigeonhole.

That's called job training, not true education IMO.

At the Jesuit university I attended, most classes after gut intro level were small round-table seminars, where the prof's job was to lay out different positions and the students were expected to challenge them, take them apart show original thinking and prove the prof wrong if they could.

Anyone who just sat there and took notes, thinking they were just there to learn a body of information and regurgitate it was sure to fail the course.

Western business and law schools - the good ones anyway - are based on case study, real-world debate and practice, not memorizing canned presentations.

I haven't come across much of this in Thai tertiary education, except perhaps to some extent at Sasin.

Oh Jesus my father went to a Jesuit University. No Thailand does not need liberal arts grads. They need someone to fix the plumbing, wire a home and be able to add and subtract at the financial departments.

Thailand is 500 years away from needing anyone trained by Jesuits in philosophy.

Stop with the buzz words. Tell me how a liberal arts grad would wire a house or run a bank or unclog a drain?

Thailand does not need political science graduates. The ones they have from Oxford, Middle Tennessee State University and Kentucky State University are doing bad enough without any more.

Betcha you don't know who went to Middle Tennessee State University? Aw on second thought it's not wise to bet against a man educated by Jesuits.

[wym]

I didn't ask you and the post was not addressed to you.

Looks like you don't understand how public discussion forums work. If you want to discuss something with a particular individual, try chat or email.

Nor did you present an example of critical thinking a Thai could not do and I really don't see any reason to try and duplicate Silicon Vally in Thailand. The same reason it was stupid for Malaysia to make its own car (After 27 years it's still a flop). Dumb dumb dumb.

I think I did.

And again you make the point yourself - stupid to try to innovate in a culture where the people aren't capable of doing so.

Unfortunately developing a knowledge economy is what's required to be actually competitive in a global economy, otherwise all you've got is commodities and cheap labor to flog, remaining in the lower ranks of under-developed countries in the world.

[wym]

I disagree. The problems you're addressing are hardly important to the country's future.

If more of Thai's leadership - business being far more important than government - were capable of even getting into Oxford, much less succeeding there, the future would indeed be much brighter.

Obviously people paying their way through third-rate american community colleges hardly able to communicate in English are NOT what I'm talking about, you're right that level of intellect is better off learning a trade.

[atyclb]

I didn't ask you and the post was not addressed to you.

Looks like you don't understand how public discussion forums work. If you want to discuss something with a particular individual, try chat or email.

Nor did you present an example of critical thinking a Thai could not do and I really don't see any reason to try and duplicate Silicon Vally in Thailand. The same reason it was stupid for Malaysia to make its own car (After 27 years it's still a flop). Dumb dumb dumb.

I think I did.

And again you make the point yourself - stupid to try to innovate in a culture where the people aren't capable of doing so.

Unfortunately developing a knowledge economy is what's required to be actually competitive in a global economy, otherwise all you've got is commodities and cheap labor to flog, remaining in the lower ranks of under-developed countries in the world.

Well, one example of very basic critical thinking would be what was pointed out above, understanding the concept of a public discussion forum versus private.

[kikoman]

In my discussions, unless it directly affects me, I rarely take a position; I simply question the proposed position. I am not trying to expound my views; I am trying to understand theirs, and maybe, in the process, re-enforce, or help them understand their own views.

As implied in my post, I, too, think a lot of it is due to the fact that most will simply nod yes and move on. When questioned, many become uncomfortable and simply want to walk away (can't be bothered).

During my schooling, I often took opposing views, sometimes simply to offer a counterpoint. Most teachers were initially offended. But, when I explained that questioning a premise will often lead to actually thinking about it, most - at least the good ones - appreciated the discussions generated.

Rather than establishing who's right, or who's wrong, I prefer to try to understand why. Often "what" is isn't as important as "why" …..

(Hope I didn't lose Spoonman again)

Where did you go to school?

Much of the US history taught in its school are not factual,!

In school I also took opposing views, to not be segregated in separate Hispanic classes in Arizona. I took apposing views when tracked into Manuel arts classes and not college prep courses.

I could understand why Thais would like to cut off conversations with many Falangs, because of the stupidity of some of their beliefs and points of view. Most of us have witnessed a lot of these people on this forum. People that suffer from delusions of Grandeur, and truly believe what they preach, and even keep up their foolishness even after they know they are on your ignore list.

I do not take adverse positions about issues in Thailand, that effects Thais (with Thai People) recently I started discussing with my family about the state of current affairs in the country. They know what is happening and how it will affect them personally as citizens of this country,

Reminds me of a recent thread, "Friendly jokes about nationalities" there are no friendly jokes about someone else's nationality, some have to find out the hard way!

Cheers

Edited January 16, 2014 by kikoman

[thailiketoo]

Well, one example of very basic critical thinking would be what was pointed out above, understanding the concept of a public discussion forum versus private.

An example of critical thinking in any business where a Thai is employed please. In other words an example of critical thinking that you or your Korean, Chinese and Singapore friends do that a Thai person can not do?

Now for the others reading this thread, I'll tell you in advance my question will not be answered and I will be attacked for broaching one of the sacred cows of Thai Visa pseudo scholars, and that is critical thinking. No one at a level of management posting on Thai Visa actually knows what critical thinking is let alone do some of it.

But I am more than happy to be proved wrong. Just tell me how you, Mr atycib, practice critical thinking at your job in Thailand that a Thai can not do.