Thaksin Returns As Pm

[hammered]

Yes Isaan living is not the same as the rest of the world. But there they don’t need to deal with rushing around like in the states. It is also not our place to decide what to do with Isaan.

If it rains today we can plant tomorrow. If it does not rain today we will find something else to do. Simply the unsophisticated logic of nature taken day to day. No need to worry about the stock market and trends, no need to worry about anything that is not in eyesight.

The economy in Isaan is remarkable stable, in fact it is the most stable in the world. Isaan is built on the food industry. The food industry will survive even a nuclear war simply because the survivors must eat. Everything else will fail.

I believe i have pointed this out to you already, but you have a very mistaken idea about upcountry Thailand. Therefore you completely misunderstand and misjudge present political situation.

Isaarn and the North is everything else than a stable economy. People are debt ridden, working in a, for them, mosty unprofitable agriculture. The amount of small scale farmers and landless farm labourers is rising, most of the land is owned by city people. The only way vast parts of the poplation can sustain themselves there is by family members migrating to the cities, working in often despicable conditions 16 to 20 hours a day in order to make enough money. More and more villages move into the profitable business of prostitution.

The already mentioned "sittakit por pueang", a Royally sponsored selfsufficient farming method, is theoretically a viable method in attempting to repair the damage that has been done over the last decades. It has the potential to help the poorest of the poor. The problems though are that there is no political will to introduce this systhem on a large and more than symbolic scale as it would take vast profits away from the rice mills and the exporters. I know that it works on many levels, as we do this on our farm.

Neverthess, it is highly idealistic, and unrealistic, that this will ever work on a large, nationwide scale. People do not want to remain on their farms, if they have the option - they want the modern luxuries that only money can buy.

On village grassroots level Thaksin has actually strengthened basic democratic institutions, as opposed to the national level where indeed he has weakened and undermined democracy. He has woken up a previously apathetic and complacent village population with his populistic programs. This does not mean that his populistic programs, such as large scale agroschemes and easy loans, will not have catastrophic results a few years down the line. Which i am convinced that they will.

From an educated city viewpoint it sounds all logical to talk about things like *the law*, and *corruption*, you and many other singleminded posters here completely neglect the fact that the vast majority of the population has only the most basic education and often not even this. There, it is already a huge step forward that their vote actually counts, that they are part of the democratic process, as faulty as it is.

The demonstrations are to a large part city based people, who talk from a city viewpoint. And as such are they viewed by Thaksin's powerhouse in the impoverished regions of the North and Isaarn. If Thaksin is removed now but what this impoverished majority views as rich people taking away the first PM who has spend attention to the villages, then the emerging democracy of Thailand will most likely be more damaged than by a continued rule of Thaksin. Because the most basic democratic process is taken away - the power of the vote of the majority of the people.

The recent demonstrations have already added to this vast gap between richand poor, between city and countryside, and have polarised to population tremendously.

Your next miscalculation is viewing Thaksin somehow as the root of all evil, as the center of corruption. Corruption is embedded in Thailand on all levels of society, and Thaksin is only a product of this condition. Admittedly, he has intrduced completely new forms of corruption, nevertheless, corruption will not disappear, or even be significantly reduced with the demise of Thaksin.

Only slow and steady social development will do this. And to ensure this slow and steady development the whole population has to be allowed to take part in this process, and has to be allowed to make mistakes, such as electing Thaksin, and learn from those mistakes.

It is only counterproductive when the sort of educated classes take this right away from the lesser educated ones.

Please get rid of the romantic notion of the happy Land of Smile, the beauty of the Thai villages. This is only a product of a clever marketing campaign that has nothing whatsoever in common with a far more dire reality.

You might find yourself in for a rude awakening very soon if those demonstrations are not stopped before they start again, and faulty as it is, the basic democratic process of voting for a party people want is hindered by following the letter of the law without regard to complex realities. Thailand is still basically a feudal society to a large extend, in the process of change, and highly instable, regardless what the spectacle of unity of the present celebrations seem to suggest to the outside world, and the romantically challenged inside.

While I largely agree with your analysis of the unstable poverty in the North and Isaan, and lets be honest also to some degree in certain parts of the South, Center and East. I do find characterization of the general anti-Thaksin movement as almost entirely city based and never linked to the Northern and Isaan villages as a little extreme. The number of no-votes was larger than the entire town based middle class of Thailand (even if there seems to be a dispute over what the final numbers were!). Also as you mention large numbers of villagers - the sons and daughters of the farmers - leave to work in towns. People from this group were involved in the actual demonstrations. Having recently spent a fair deal of time in several Northern villages it is obvious that there is at least some surprise by those living there when they find out some of their children are on the "opposite side". Interestingly, and as an aside, the biggest non-voting group is also this group of transient workers. This whole issue is a lot more complicated than all the Isaan and Northern "registered" people plus TRT versus the city based middle class, and that is probably why it is now so difficult to find a solution.

[ColPyat]

my commentary in GREEN

Yes, i noticed, erratic, and inflaming as usual.

Worse than my wife on her monthly ...

[ColPyat]

While I largely agree with your analysis of the unstable poverty in the North and Isaan, and lets be honest also to some degree in certain parts of the South, Center and East. I do find characterization of the general anti-Thaksin movement as almost entirely city based and never linked to the Northern and Isaan villages as a little extreme. The number of no-votes was larger than the entire town based middle class of Thailand (even if there seems to be a dispute over what the final numbers were!). Also as you mention large numbers of villagers - the sons and daughters of the farmers - leave to work in towns. People from this group were involved in the actual demonstrations. Having recently spent a fair deal of time in several Northern villages it is obvious that there is at least some surprise by those living there when they find out some of their children are on the "opposite side". Interestingly, and as an aside, the biggest non-voting group is also this group of transient workers. This whole issue is a lot more complicated than all the Isaan and Northern "registered" people plus TRT versus the city based middle class, and that is probably why it is now so difficult to find a solution.

True, Thaksin is not uniliterally supported in those impoverished regions. My wife and her family are an example of that. Yes, and the polarisation does split families, as we have read - there were a few murders during the demonstrations within family units because of different political positions.

Nevertheless, i would not attribute the 'No' vote as a support of the 'guu chart' crowd - the boycott forced voters of the other opposition parties to use this option. I find that upcountry, regardless of people supporting Thaksin or any other party - the 'guu chart' movement is not well liked by most people.

And yes, i agree - the issue is far more complex, even more complex than present political fronts. We are dealing here with the effect of decades of mismanagement of the country by ALL previous governments, in addition to Thailand being in the process of transition...to where we don't know yet.

Reducing this to a political conflict is simplifying very complex issues.

Edited June 13, 2006 by ColPyat

[ColPyat]

The educated people in Bangkok are more like Knights, Rooks, and Bishops. The King and Queen are as they are. This team is fighting for the good of Thailand and it’s people. The other team is the corruption team.

The "educated people" in Bangkok are fighting for themselves, not for the rural poor. Mostly they have very little knowledge about the problems of the rural poor. Classism is an inherent problem of Thai society.

[John K]

The educated people in Bangkok are more like Knights, Rooks, and Bishops. The King and Queen are as they are. This team is fighting for the good of Thailand and it’s people. The other team is the corruption team.

The "educated people" in Bangkok are fighting for themselves, not for the rural poor. Mostly they have very little knowledge about the problems of the rural poor. Classism is an inherent problem of Thai society.

Very few societies can claim they are free of classifying people. Even in Japan the difference between gender is much more than in Thailand. I know it plays a roll, but at some level it is elective what class you find yourself in. If you don’t study in school and let the Thai education system work against you by giving you an impressive document that does not match what is between the ears, you can expect a to be in a lower class. But I think this is getting way off topic.

[ColPyat]

Very few societies can claim they are free of classifying people. Even in Japan the difference between gender is much more than in Thailand. I know it plays a roll, but at some level it is elective what class you find yourself in. If you don’t study in school and let the Thai education system work against you by giving you an impressive document that does not match what is between the ears, you can expect a to be in a lower class. But I think this is getting way off topic.

Sorry, but i don't think that you understand the class issues particular to Thailand.

To which class you belong to is to the most part decided in which class you are born into, and not what, where and how you learned. Only a tiny minority can escape their class and relating restrictions here. This is not off-topic, this is one of the most important factors that has brought down the present mess here.

You cannot judge and analyse the present situation in Thailand along modern parameters, which you do here. If you want get somehow an idea about todays Thai society, it might be a good idea to put yourself into the situation of Britain at the beginning of the industrial revolution. I know, it is not a perfect comparism, but it is maybe as close as you can get to descibing present day Thailand.

[jdinasia]

wow! ... again .. if you don't see it the same as ColPyat .. then you don't understand!

<<Center section deleted so as not to rise to the baiting above>>

This really all IS moot ... the courts have it ... not the pro-TRT folks ... or the Pro-Democracy folks ... and certainly not me ... since I cannot vote here!

Edited June 13, 2006 by jdinasia

[John K]

If you think about it you being born in a lower class is from one of your parents or their parents making some poor choices. Anyone can overcome poverty if they don’t view it as a barrier. Each person in Thailand has a chance to go to school, it’s up to them if they decide to learn or not. So the chance to brake the cycle is offered at every generation.

Edited June 13, 2006 by john Krukowski

[ColPyat]

If you think about it you being born in a lower class is from one of your parents or their parents making some poor choices. Anyone can overcome poverty if they don’t view it as a barrier. Each person in Thailand has a chance to go to school, it’s up to them if they decide to learn or not. So the chance to brake the cycle is offered at every generation.

Sorry, no. You are absolutely wrong here.

Any class you were born into here is not decided by the choices your parents made, but in which class you parents were born. Moving up the class systhem is rarely achieved by personal effort. Only the very brightest can manage that.

Until only 20 to 30 years ago in rural Thailand school for the average person only went to 4th grade, and only the very smart or lucky ones were able to get a higher education.

The generation of 20 something year olds in the rural areas now in Thailand are actually the first generation ever that had the choice to learn beyond the basic.

This is not the US, Australia, or Europe.

[stumonster]

Interestingly, and as an aside, the biggest non-voting group is also this group of transient workers.

I think this is a big problem in Thailands democratic process , many voters are disinfranchised because of the cost required for them to cast their vote.

[John K]

I guess I should have said “now offered” in post #518. I guess I am trying to look forward to the future that can be guided vs the past that is now history. The generation of 20 something year olds in the rural areas now in Thailand are actually the first generation ever that had the choice to learn beyond the basic. Tends to substantiate my point.

[jdinasia]

and again .... if you see it differently not only are you wrong ... you are "absolutely wrong"

Stu ..... I agree ... not being able to register to vote (and vote) where you live is a tremendous flaw here.

As is not having a democratically elected local government ... though I understand why provincial gov's are appointed ... theorhettically it limits the local political machine

In Thailand there is a bit of both parental influence and individual drive that enables MANY to rise above the station of their birth! Parents generally MUST sacrifice to see the kids all the way through school .... and kids MUST have the drive/inclination AND ability to do it!

Edited June 13, 2006 by jdinasia

[Martin]

This thread has gone from the news that Thaksin has come back to the PM's office to a deep discussion of the strong forces at work deep within Thai society, of which the office of PM leads the development.

It is analagous to news of a tsunami leading to a discussion of the grinding together of the intercontinental tectonic plates!

Struggling to understanding(s) of the deep movements of society is, however, a big part of living in it, so I hope the moderators will let us continue.

Many of the apparently-conflicting views of the last score or so of postings can, in my opinion, actually be reconciled. They are true depictions of a scene, as seen from different standpoints.

But, being old, I didn't grow up able to type, scroll, and think at the same time, so I will have to print it out , assemble my observations and then come back to the keyboard.

Back later. Martin.

[ColPyat]

I guess I should have said “now offered” in post #518. I guess I am trying to look forward to the future that can be guided vs the past that is now history. The generation of 20 something year olds in the rural areas now in Thailand are actually the first generation ever that had the choice to learn beyond the basic. Tends to substantiate my point.

It does actually the opposite of substantiating your point.

It shows you how far Thailand actually still has to go before being able to be analised along modern parameters. It is not exactly that this now being the first generation having the option to finish school means that centuries of feudal baggage are blown away.

In every level of Thai society feudal behavioral and social systhems are still in place, and that will stay so for a long time to come. The pre Thaksin governments have not changed much on this status quo, and benefitted from this.

Strange as it sounds, Thaksin, with all his faults, was the first politician who has woken up the villagers out of their political apathy on a large scale. I admit, it was mainly for his own benefit, and not theirs. But he has initiated something there.

If TRT is dissolved at this point, and Thaksin thrown out, it will only destroy this little progress. Don't forget, the city elites and middle classes, regradless of their political affiliation, have very little interest in upcountry people's problems.

[sriracha john]

Chownah

Good post and good to see you back among the living, chownah...

[Plus]

Thanks, Colpyat, for completely clouding the topic. Having been awed by the enourmous complexity of the situation you presented , may I ask you what you propose Thai people should do about it?

So far your only suggestion was to sit it out until TRT's policies crash with a bang and economy nose dives, like in 1997, except that this time the poor will suffer most. This is so lame I don't even understand how you can think up something like that.

Most people who care took to the streets with PAD, put their personal political hygiene aside and joined in singing Ai-Na-Liam with those despicable murderous chovinistic ultra-right extremists Sondhi and Chamlong, and Snoh, too.

>>>>>>>>>

I think you completely misunderstand Thai middle and educated class - they do care about poor farmers, and they can't sit and watch them being led into abyss. They have no personal benefits in throwing Thaksin out - they do it for the benefit of the country, and that means to save the poor from certain doom, too.

Most of the current middle class weren't born into it - they grew into that status, sharing the spoils of the economic growth. They don't vote along the class lines of their parents. Thaksin, too, btw, wasn't born into the richest Thai family.

You can't have a functional democracy without big, strong, politically conscious middle class - manipulating poor farmers through their traditional feudal framework is NOT a democracy.

As for TRT empowering people - you overestimate it. People don't have ANY power under TRT. Those who think they do, are crashed and sidelined. The only power is to sing praises to dear leader, in absolute freedom. Same as under communist regime.

[John K]

Like I said a bit off topic. I guess what I was trying to say is they have elected to educate themselves to break the cycle. That’s all I meant no more or no less. Perhaps this is one of the times there may be more than one message in the text. I am not any sort of expert on past Thai social behavior nor do I have any plans to study it in depth. All I am doing is stating an obvious reason to get an education.

Hopefully tomorrow’s issue of the Bangkok Post or The Nation will lend itself to putting this thread back on topic.

[sriracha john]

I know that it works on many levels, as we do this on our farm

.

((From the machete-wielding, gun-toting industrial estates of Samut Prakarn to running his farm in Isaan??))

my commentary in GREEN

hahahaha... He does get around, doesn't he???...

Add in his semi-annual trips to India... and it makes for quite an encyclopedia of expertise, no matter what the location...

[ovenman]

and it makes for quite an encyclopedia of expertise, no matter what the location...

Even better than wikipedia.

[ColPyat]

Thanks, Colpyat, for completely clouding the topic. Having been awed by the enourmous complexity of the situation you presented , may I ask you what you propose Thai people should do about it?

So far your only suggestion was to sit it out until TRT's policies crash with a bang and economy nose dives, like in 1997, except that this time the poor will suffer most. This is so lame I don't even understand how you can think up something like that.

Most people who care took to the streets with PAD, put their personal political hygiene aside and joined in singing Ai-Na-Liam with those despicable murderous chovinistic ultra-right extremists Sondhi and Chamlong, and Snoh, too.

>>>>>>>>>

I think you completely misunderstand Thai middle and educated class - they do care about poor farmers, and they can't sit and watch them being led into abyss. They have no personal benefits in throwing Thaksin out - they do it for the benefit of the country, and that means to save the poor from certain doom, too.

Most of the current middle class weren't born into it - they grew into that status, sharing the spoils of the economic growth. They don't vote along the class lines of their parents. Thaksin, too, btw, wasn't born into the richest Thai family.

You can't have a functional democracy without big, strong, politically conscious middle class - manipulating poor farmers through their traditional feudal framework is NOT a democracy.

As for TRT empowering people - you overestimate it. People don't have ANY power under TRT. Those who think they do, are crashed and sidelined. The only power is to sing praises to dear leader, in absolute freedom. Same as under communist regime.

I hope that this thread does not disintegrate into the usual personal attacks instead of keeping it civil with coherent posts.

Anyhow...

Most current middle classes do not come from the rural poor. The are partly from ethnic Chinese background, people who immigrated into Thailand and were extremely industrious. Ethnic Thai middle classes mostly came from the relatively richer rural families. Also in the rural areas there is a rather strict class systhem. Farmer does not necessarily mean "rural poor".

You will be hard pressed to find many members of the middle classes who came from families who owned less then ten rai of land. People who moved up from this sector of the population are the exception.

Thaksin was born into a relatively powerful and wealthy Thai Chinese clan that seddled in the North. He had several uncles in very high positions in army and politics. Even his father was for a while a politician. Due to those relations, and the connections his marriage to the daughter of a very powerful police general he was able to amass this fortune. His own propaganda of 'rags to riches' is pure fabrication in order to get popular support from the lower classes.

The question here is not if people, especially the rural poor, actually have "power" under Thaksin. Obviously they don't. But they did not have "power" under any other previous government, and won't in any coming government. The question is about perception, and these people believe that they have power, and that this power is taken away from them.

If people believe that they have power, one day they actually might get it as well. Thaksin has put something in motion there that he, or anyone else, will not be able to control in the future, unless this feeling is taken away from those people by removing the party they perceive as the one that has given them power. Sooner or later they will realise themselves that they were misled, and then they will decide for somebody else. This is a healthy democratic process, a stepping stone to development.

City people and educated people "saving" the poor, and "doing it for country" without the consent of those rural poor, without even asking them if their fight is welcome, are highly patronising, and take every freedom away from those already disfranchised classes. People have to be allowed the freedom to make their own mistakes, and learn their own lessons from those mistakes.

What do i propose that "Thai people" do about it?

There are at times things people can't do much about it other than sitting it out and weathering the storm.

As much as people want it - but there mostly are no easy solutions to complex problems. Any easy solution offered and attempted, will make things worse.

Easy solutions such as Thaksin offered to allevate the suffering of the poor.

And easy solutions such as believing that removing Thaksin via demonstrations would change anything substantially regarding corruption in Thai society.

[udon]

Stop the flaming or there will be suspensions.

[sriracha john]

TRT MP says he will not appoint lawyer to defend himself

Former Thai Rak Thai Party MP Sophon Phetsawang said he would not appoint a lawyer to defend himself during a trial by the Administrative Court for alleged contempt of Court.

The Administrative Court issued a subpoena for Sophon and another former Thai Rak Thai MP, Buasorn Prachamorn, to appear in a trial for alleged contempt of court on Wednesday.

Continued here:

http://nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/r...newsid=30006375

[sriracha john]

and in another court-related case... the EC tries to buy time... which at this time, seems pointless:

Embattled Election Commission tries another ploy

Faced with the worst crisis of trust it has ever experienced, the Election Commission is now toying with the idea of "re-engineering" to prop up its tattered reputation.

The commission has created a task force with its secretary-general, Ekachai Warunprapa, as chairman. But it is already facing a barrage of criticism about its real intentions and the efficacy of such a move, which would cost Bt45 million.

The re-engineering idea emerged after top judges from the Supreme, Administrative, and Constitution courts agreed that they should take charge of the upcoming election instead of the EC.

Continued here:

http://nationmultimedia.com/2006/06/14/nat...al_30006384.php

[sriracha john]

The request, no doubt, reads:

“...and for superlative performance, unflinching dedication to duty, unmatched servitude to this great nation, and unwavering loyalty to the political party currently in power, I hereby request … more money” :

ELECTION COMMISSION: Secretary-general seeks Second pay rise for himself this year.

The secretary-general of the Election Commission (EC) has, for the second time this year, proposed a pay rise for himself.

Pol Maj-General Aekachai Warunprapha's previous request for a pay rise was made in January.

Continued here:

http://nationmultimedia.com/2006/06/13/pol...cs_30006363.php

-------------------------------------------------------------

Since EC Chairman Wasana seems to share a similar disconnection with what is commonly referred to as "REALITY," will he be submitting a similar request for himself as well?

[sriracha john]

Suspicion shrouds today’s EC meeting with parties

The Election Commission meeting today with the country’s political parties, which was ostensibly called to update its party membership registry, has a hidden agenda, it was claimed yesterday.

Not only are the three embattled EC commissioners attempting to buy time, but party members themselves will use the meeting to further their own political agendas, Jade Donavanik, dean of law at Siam University, told ThaiDay.

“It is normal for the EC to check political party membership, but the scheduled meeting today has no clear objective,” said Jade.

“[updating party membership lists] is something EC clerks can do. It does not require EC commissioners to do it themselves,” he said.

“Clearly it shows the EC is ignoring public concerns that their continuation in their jobs is inappropriate. They are buying time.”

EC chairman Wasana Permlarp sent out invitations over the weekend to 34 political parties to this morning’s meeting at EC headquarters. In justification, Wasana said there could be as many as seven million people registered with more than one political party.

- TD

[John K]

Text of a probable EC conversation:

Why are they so upset with us? We are still doing exactly what Thaksin wants us to do.

[Plus]

The question is about perception...

The perception is that Thailand is the most dynamic, successfull, freest country in SE Asia with the best leadership in the world, hub of the universe. Sorry, but that perception, and the perception that farmers wield power under TRT, must be broken.

they did not have "power" under any other previous government, and won't in any coming government.

If Democrats implement decentralisation policies as they promise they will, farmers will get a lot of power in matters that are really important to them.

City people and educated people "saving" the poor, and "doing it for country" without the consent of those rural poor, without even asking them if their fight is welcome, are highly patronising..

Nonsense. What you are saying is that city people can't speak up and protest until they get full support from every bribed, brainwashed villager.

People have to be allowed the freedom to make their own mistakes, and learn their own lessons from those mistakes.

And people should have freedom to stop others from making fatal mistakes, like shooting themselves in the head.

There are at times things people can't do much about it other than sitting it out and weathering the storm

Time to sit out was last year, it passed. In January hundreds of thousands of people thought that they CAN and SHOULD do something about it.

[chownah]

Plus,

In your previous post you were replying to this:

"City people and educated people "saving" the poor, and "doing it for country" without the consent of those rural poor, without even asking them if their fight is welcome, are highly patronising.."

And your response was this:

"Nonsense. What you are saying is that city people can't speak up and protest until they get full support from every bribed, brainwashed villager."

My reply to you is this:

The person you are responding to (you have not included that persons identity in your post) is clearly NOT saying that city people can't speak up....what the person seems to be saying that to do so without any knowledge of what villagers attitudes or needs are is patronizing....which I think is correct.

Also, your statement describing the villagers seems to indicate that you have a low opinion of villagers....this might not be true but I do think that it is the impression you are giving whether intended or not.

Chownah

[hammered]

A tad off topic again (apologies), but related to some posts, and it is getting difficult to keep up with where all this is going, but if the provinces get elected governors and with the release of more funds to local elected bodies, wont the local people get more control over where local investment is made as well as more local democracy? Is anyone proposing elected provincial governors?

Also on the education issue which has popped up on here, didnt the pre-TRT coalition government say the mandatory 18 years education should be from P1 to M6 so all kids nationwide would would have the opportunity to go to university? I think that the TRT then changed the mandatory education to KG1 to M3 arguing it was more important to free the farmers up to work the fields while their kids were young, than to allow the university opportunity to all.

[Plus]

Chownah, "do so without any knowledge" from your post and "without the consent of" from Colpyat's are two different things.

Colpyat's means not having no knowledge of, but having no persmission from villagers [to protest on their behalf].

As for low opinion of the villagers - in terms of political awareness, yes. That seems to be general consensus. I don't see anyone on this board disputing that villagers vote as they are told or paid to.