Lawyers, how much?

[BngkkB]

This question is directed to people that live in country or have spent a lot of time in country. Not looking for an internet survey, but personal experiences. General information, filing to open a business, divorce or pre~nup? Anything that you have used a small Thai legal company for.

I understand this is a wide open question, but what are some past experiences? I'm not interested in the Baker McKenzie type of law firms that are known around the world, or the Siam Legal who are all over the internet. I'm more interested in learning what people have paid to small Thai boutique firms. Did you pay per case? If so what kind of case and how much? Did you pay by the hour?

I was discussing the cost of USA vs. Canadian lawyers with a friend the other night and they inquired how much a decent lawyer in Thailand cost? So now I pass the question on to you.

Thanks for your help.

[Kangawallafox]

Why what did you do,lol.

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[sam sen]

my GF is a corporate taxation lawyer at a mid range law firm. yours for 10,000 baht an hour

[CharlieH]

How long is a piece of string comes to mind.

[BngkkB]

Actually didn't do anything. 10K an hour is that what she bills out at? Your a lucky man. Like I said I know it's a wide open question but looking for past experiences.

Thanks again for the answers so far, keep em coming.

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[Sayonarax]

my GF is a corporate taxation lawyer at a mid range law firm. yours for 10,000 baht an hour

Please save your arrogance for the bar.

Mines bigger than yours blah blah.

[CharlieH]

I had an hour chat with one local lawyer, he then wrote two letters for me, had two telephone calls to others, one more subsequent consultation and he charged me zero! absolutely nothing, said he was glad to help and no charge,

I bought him a good bottle of whiskey for a thank you.

[beachproperty]

My experience was the same as "Charlie H" although circumstances different. Saw the local lawyer

regarding searching the title on a property and just general advice regarding the purchase.

No charge.

[wym]

A properly qualified and experience lawyer with a solid reputation used to dealing with international/cross cultural issues will charge USD $250-500.

99.99% of them will work for a flat fee, maybe THB 10-20K.

I have met over a dozen bar girls / rent boys with little education studying to become lawyers. They were not law students making money on the side, although I'm sure that happens too.

The barrier to entry here to call yourself a "lawyer" is incredibly low.

There is very little regulation, most of them I've found to be criminally unethical - which of course they are back home too, but at least there they are usually working FOR their client, not actively conspiring to cheat them.

Very very difficult to find a trustworthy and competent one here at any price.

And most of the time you get what you pay for, a good cheap one would be like winning the lottery.

[Tmymaimee]

A properly qualified and experience lawyer with a solid reputation used to dealing with international/cross cultural issues will charge USD $250-500.

99.99% of them will work for a flat fee, maybe THB 10-20K.

I have met over a dozen bar girls / rent boys with little education studying to become lawyers. They were not law students making money on the side, although I'm sure that happens too.

The barrier to entry here to call yourself a "lawyer" is incredibly low.

There is very little regulation, most of them I've found to be criminally unethical - which of course they are back home too, but at least there they are usually working FOR their client, not actively conspiring to cheat them.

Very very difficult to find a trustworthy and competent one here at any price.

And most of the time you get what you pay for, a good cheap one would be like winning the lottery.

Sorry, but what a load of kwai kee. I hired a very competent attorney for a complex case involving parental sponsorship obligations utilizing IVF for a thai farang divorce and she was 5000 per hour and excellent. Part of a good lawyer is knowing when to use paralegals to avoid this 10k 0 20k hour wish.

Even Baker MacKenzie only goes for 9K per hour and unless you're structuring a branch plant in Thailand, why pay for their expertise?

I used a normal lawyer for some local company matters and he charged 1200 baht per hour. Falang lawyer practicing under a Thai lawyer.

Easy to find a trustworthy lawyer here, even for a low price.

Where do you come up with this complete crap? From your barstool in Isaan?

A bargirl studying to be a lawyer? What, with her grade 3 farmer education? You do realize a lawyer is a lot more than just passing an exam? It requires intelligence, foresight, hard work and experience….maybe your bargirl lawyer is half your problem???

Edited January 22, 2014 by Whereustay

[wym]

Sorry, but what a load of kwai kee. I hired a very competent attorney for a complex case involving parental sponsorship obligations utilizing IVF for a thai farang divorce and she was 5000 per hour and excellent. Part of a good lawyer is knowing when to use paralegals to avoid this 10k 0 20k hour wish.

Even Baker MacKenzie only goes for 9K per hour and unless you're structuring a branch plant in Thailand, why pay for their expertise?

I used a normal lawyer for some local company matters and he charged 1200 baht per hour. Falang lawyer practicing under a Thai lawyer.

Easy to find a trustworthy lawyer here, even for a low price.

Perhaps easy for you.

So B-M is within the range I quoted. I'm sure they jalso have attorneys at the top end that charge more than you quote.

My point is unless you're well-connected in the trusted business community here it's very easy to fall in with the shoddy incompetent and criminal scammer lawyers which make up the vast majority of those operating in the Kingdom.

Where do you come up with this complete crap? From your barstool in Isaan?

A bargirl studying to be a lawyer? What, with her grade 3 farmer education? You do realize a lawyer is a lot more than just passing an exam? It requires intelligence, foresight, hard work and experience.

From my direct experience. You are talking about the competent professionals that make up a tiny fraction of those pseudo-lawyers that practice here.

My point remains that people should know that unlike back home, the barrier to entry here is very very low and there aren't the same government and professional self-regulation mechanisms here to protect the consumer.

Many many foreigners get burned by assuming otherwise and just walk into a shopfront, respond to advertising or accept at face value recommendations from people they don't know personally and trust.

Obviously online sources are among the most suspect.

[Bender]

A properly qualified and experience lawyer with a solid reputation used to dealing with international/cross cultural issues will charge USD $250-500.

99.99% of them will work for a flat fee, maybe THB 10-20K.

I have met over a dozen bar girls / rent boys with little education studying to become lawyers. They were not law students making money on the side, although I'm sure that happens too.

The barrier to entry here to call yourself a "lawyer" is incredibly low.

There is very little regulation, most of them I've found to be criminally unethical - which of course they are back home too, but at least there they are usually working FOR their client, not actively conspiring to cheat them.

Very very difficult to find a trustworthy and competent one here at any price.

And most of the time you get what you pay for, a good cheap one would be like winning the lottery.

so true, few years ago, a close friend of mine did hire an expensive lawyer to settle a really tiny problem.

My friend did have a company (a real one with expensive property asset) and his exgf, was a minority shareholder.

My friend wanted to buy back the share from his exgf, and she did agree. So it was not hassle, just some paperwork that needed to be signed.

Later, WE found that the lawyer that my friend did hire, was pressuring the exgf in really dodgy trick to gain full control of the company for herself!

Some might wonder, how we did found out?

Well it was the exgf (a honest girl and also a good friend) who spill the beans, she didnt want to be involve in any nasty story...

ps: i have 2 others story, and yes you really can not trust the lawyer, (especially if they are provided to you by the Bib, a word of warning!)

Edited January 22, 2014 by Bender

[Bender]

A properly qualified and experience lawyer with a solid reputation used to dealing with international/cross cultural issues will charge USD $250-500.

99.99% of them will work for a flat fee, maybe THB 10-20K.

I have met over a dozen bar girls / rent boys with little education studying to become lawyers. They were not law students making money on the side, although I'm sure that happens too.

The barrier to entry here to call yourself a "lawyer" is incredibly low.

There is very little regulation, most of them I've found to be criminally unethical - which of course they are back home too, but at least there they are usually working FOR their client, not actively conspiring to cheat them.

Very very difficult to find a trustworthy and competent one here at any price.

And most of the time you get what you pay for, a good cheap one would be like winning the lottery.

Sorry, but what a load of kwai kee. I hired a very competent attorney for a complex case involving parental sponsorship obligations utilizing IVF for a thai farang divorce and she was 5000 per hour and excellent. Part of a good lawyer is knowing when to use paralegals to avoid this 10k 0 20k hour wish.

Even Baker MacKenzie only goes for 9K per hour and unless you're structuring a branch plant in Thailand, why pay for their expertise?

I used a normal lawyer for some local company matters and he charged 1200 baht per hour. Falang lawyer practicing under a Thai lawyer.

Easy to find a trustworthy lawyer here, even for a low price.

Where do you come up with this complete crap? From your barstool in Isaan?

A bargirl studying to be a lawyer? What, with her grade 3 farmer education? You do realize a lawyer is a lot more than just passing an exam? It requires intelligence, foresight, hard work and experience….maybe your bargirl lawyer is half your problem???

"I used a normal lawyer for some local company matters and he charged 1200 baht per hour. Falang lawyer practicing under a Thai lawyer."

farang lawyer, 1200 baht/hour Are you one of these dodgy lawyer?

Edited January 22, 2014 by Bender

[Satcommlee]

I hired a Thai "barrister at Law" and law professor in the local UNI, albeit an old guy in his 60's, to represent me at a police station regarding a spot of bother surrounding a car accident several times for only 5000 Baht a day. (10 hour day with travelling).

Absolute bargain, and just goes to prove you don't need these Farang wanabee law firms, farangs pretending to be lawyers or the over aggressive advertisers on farang orienated websites!

Absolutely no complaints about him, he knew his job and the police would Wai him :-)

[wym]

"I used a normal lawyer for some local company matters and he charged 1200 baht per hour. Falang lawyer practicing under a Thai lawyer."

farang lawyer, 1200 baht/hour Are you one of these dodgy lawyer?

Note that unemployment rates among recent law graduates in the US - and other countries? - are very very high.

And they like Thai girls as much as anyone, so not expensive to hire these days.

[wayned]

I once asked one of the advertisers on TV how much they charged per hour for divorce. He came back and said that they don't have an hourly rate, they charge depending on the activity, divorce was 100,000 baht!

[MahasarakhamMitch]

I had an hour chat with one local lawyer, he then wrote two letters for me, had two telephone calls to others, one more subsequent consultation and he charged me zero! absolutely nothing, said he was glad to help and no charge,

I bought him a good bottle of whiskey for a thank you.

funny you say that but I had a similar experience in Maha Sarakham about 8 years ago. I was stunned by this as my step father was a London solicitor and would never do anything for free. I did the same and gave him a bottle of Johnny black as a thank you.

[BngkkB]

Thank you everyone I appreciate all the answers. The kind of thing I was looking for. So 5K to 10K per day range for competent local legal help is what im getting from the replies. Great idea to use professor from law Uni. I will relay the info back to my buddy in Canada.

Dont be shy, keep the stories coming.

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[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I can add a few tidbits on this subject:

1. Check around with some law firms that you think might be suitable for your subject. Some, even many of them, may offer an initial consultation and advice for free. They won't do work or prepare documents for free. But if you have legal questions about property buying or marriage or divorce etc., you'll get an opportunity to ask them and get answers without spending a dime -- at least the first time.

2. I spent an hour this morning with a pair of Thai lawyers and the American lawyer who's their boss, who the Thai pair invited into our meeting, at one of the international law firms based in Bangkok. They answered pretty much all of the questions I had about Thai marriage and divorce law and even prenuptuals -- all complimentary as an initial consulation. When I asked about their hourly rate for regular legal work, the answer was 7,000 baht per hour.

3. One of the smaller but well-known law firms for farangs in Thailand is Isaan Lawyers based in Korat. Their managing director, Sebastian Brousseau, a Canadian attorney who has a staff of Thai attorneys, also was very helpful to me recently with a complimentary initial consultation over the phone. And, they have an offer listed on their website for a regular consultation with him by advance appointment over Skype audio or audio-video call, billed at a rate of 1,000 baht per hour. And he confirmed that still a valid offer.

http://www.isaanlawyers.com/about-us/meet-our-team.html

BTW, I asked the Bangkok international law firm about their price for preparing a prenuptual agreement, and their quote was 20-25K baht. But for the record, that included their work, the preparation of the document, and the payment to a separate law firm to advise one's spouse on such an agreement. Similar to the advice I'd received long ago in the U.S. regarding a prenup, the lawyers here advised that it's best to arrange for a separate, independent attorney/law firm to review the document with one's spouse -- so as to avoid/minimize any subsequent risk of the spouse claiming they were duped into signing a legal document they didn't understand, etc etc.

Isaan Lawyers, on their website, quotes 9800 baht for a prenup. But their quote makes no mention of arranging for a separate lawyer to review it with one's spouse, nor do I know whether Isaan Lawyers feels that's a necessary or recommended step.

Edited January 30, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[zaphodbeeblebrox]

I'm an American lawyer and serve as in-house counsel for a company here in Bangkok. We hire all types of lawyers, so I will tell you a secret - there is no price range. These guys charge flat fees for all legal work. They want to get as much money in the door as a retainer and then only play lip service to your case. They are not interested in actually doing any work, and they get away with it, because the legal system is so archaic and the overall quality of lawyers is so poor.

Only real international law firms (like Baker & McKenzie) charge what's called a capped hourly rate. That means that there's an agreed amount of work, an hourly charge assigned to it, and a maximum that the law firm can charge for that piece of work. This is becoming more common, especially for work performed on behalf of multi-national corporations. If you need high quality legal work done, go with an international firm that is headquartered outside of Thailand, but has an office here in Thailand. Otherwise, just hire a solo practitioner (what Grisham calls a "ham and egger") to do your legal work here.

So, here's some charges that I have seen. Some I have paid, and some I have let the lawyers sue me over, and then beaten them up in court.

Solo practitioner (all flat fees)

fraud/theft case with trial and collection services: 35,000 baht

breach of contract trial: 25,000 baht

wrongful discharge through trial: 20,000 baht

appeal: 15,000 baht

Law Firm

copyright infringement, without trial: 200,000+ baht

wrongful discharge through trial and appeal: 500,000 baht

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I'm an American lawyer and serve as in-house counsel for a company here in Bangkok. We hire all types of lawyers, so I will tell you a secret - there is no price range. These guys charge flat fees for all legal work. They want to get as much money in the door as a retainer and then only play lip service to your case. They are not interested in actually doing any work, and they get away with it, because the legal system is so archaic and the overall quality of lawyers is so poor.

I'm not sure who you mean by your reference to "these guys." Thai solo practitioners or small Thai law firms???

Clearly, the international law firm I spoke with today in BKK offers their services on an hourly basis, though I suppose they'd also quote a flat fee as well.

And at least for consulation purposes, Isaan Lawyers will do consulation on an hourly basis. But they also quote a lot of their document preparation work -- prenups, wills, etc. -- on a flat rate basis.

When it comes to legal services, I suspect most of the readers here are more often in need of legal consultation and document preparation as opposed to being represented in a civil or criminal trial.

But the larger and more important point, I suspect, is how readers here can try to go about finding Thai attorneys who ARE competent. I understand being an attorney in Thailand is not necessarily the same as being one in the United States. But I think you're painting with an overly broad brush to seemingly suggest that none of them are qualified and competent.

I'm not an attorney, but I am reasonably well versed in some aspects of law. And I will say, at least one of the two Thai attorneys I spoke with this morning struck me as a pretty sharp guy at least in terms of legal knowledge. I raised some issues with him dealing with the notion that capital gains proceeds may not be considered as community property in the event of a divorce, and his answers clearly reflected knowledge of the law on that point in the U.S. and Thailand. I have no idea how he'd perform in a trial, though.

Edited January 30, 2014 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[billSMITH]

A properly qualified and experience lawyer with a solid reputation used to dealing with international/cross cultural issues will charge USD $250-500.

99.99% of them will work for a flat fee, maybe THB 10-20K.

I have met over a dozen bar girls / rent boys with little education studying to become lawyers. They were not law students making money on the side, although I'm sure that happens too.

The barrier to entry here to call yourself a "lawyer" is incredibly low.

There is very little regulation, most of them I've found to be criminally unethical - which of course they are back home too, but at least there they are usually working FOR their client, not actively conspiring to cheat them.

Very very difficult to find a trustworthy and competent one here at any price.

And most of the time you get what you pay for, a good cheap one would be like winning the lottery.

Where do you come up with this complete crap? From your barstool in Isaan?

A bargirl studying to be a lawyer? What, with her grade 3 farmer education?

we should give nick of crapMAN to wym. His non-sense krap is scattered all over this forum.

[wym]

Well that's my cue, off for a massage and a nap. . .

[Loles]

Amigo, the Thai lawyers basicaly are dam_n shameless and dam_n expensive, it's not question at all.

Just look at my personal experiences and learn.

at 2011 I decided to set up a Co. Ltd and started to find lawyer.

(Anyway for procedure no need any lawyer at all, if you have a smart Thai mate who can fill the forms, not difficult at all.)

So I took lawyer from the ThaVisa advertising (before they were jumping always here), their name is Sunbelt Asia.

This was a huge mistake.

I was agreed with them to set up company and organize FDA (food and drug administration) codes for import snack products. You can find this long number on every food packaging, I talk about them, those are the FDA codes.

We agreed in costs also. I just taken next to me the invoices, so I can tell exactly the costs.

The advertising price was 7500 B. But they made invoice also extra these:

Tax ID reg. : 3 000 B

Share certificates: 3 000 B

Share reg. book: 1 500 B

VAT ID reg: 3 000 B

Company seals: 1 000 B

Minute of the meeting for opening bank account : 1 000 B

Social fund reg: 3 000 B

Travelling fees, 300/trip, 6 trips: 1 800 B

Preferred share setup: 3 900 B

SO ALL TOGETHER 28 700 B + VAT.

And came the FDA registration procedure, which was the first in their life I guess, cause I got a lot of aaaaaAAAAAAA.

They told it takes around 14 days. Off course it was almost 2 months, and with out the FDA codes couldn't start the European producing.

They told all the cost around 25 000 B + Goverment fees.

This was true, I paid:

Imp/Exp card: 8 800 B

travelling fees 500 B/trip, 4 trips 2 000 B

FDA license proc.: 25 000 B\

travelling fees 500 B/trip, 10 !!! trips 5 000 B

total, 44 800 B + VAT

Government fees: 20 450 B (9 FDA codes = 20 000, Imp/Exp card 200 B, applic. fee: 50 B, duty stamp 200

So ALL TOGETHER 68 386

SUB TOTAL 99 095 B

This is not so expensive if I see the European prices, but a dam_n expensive if I see the service which I have got from them.

The nicest was, when the lawyer ( a full lazy and liar lady ) told me in medium of FDA procedure her work is finished, if I want she does finish I have to pay more. I sent a complaint to her employer, then she told, solly - solly, was only mistake.

She told me about long term delay in FDA Gov. Office there are more than 1 meter water (this time was a big flood) but when I went there personally off course there are not 1 cm water. When I really got fed up their work told to lawyer do come with us, we take her by car, and do organize immediately, cause we lose a lot about this silly delay.

Off course we got the codes with in 3 hours, and could start the container.

Later I asked them, if I want to change the company stamp (seal) how much is it. They answered 12 000 B + travelling fees 4 times, 2 000 B + Government fees, and takes around 21 days. I didn't believe it, I had experiences about them.

I organized myself with a smart Thai friend, it was 400 B Gov. fee, and around 25 minutes in DBD (development of Business Department) office, had to fill a firm only.

My friends told me similar stories about their way, no-one told until now: "Buddy, I have a good, reliable, reasonable lawyer, go there!"

So I just wish "no lawyer in TH" situation again.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Loles

[drx13]

What do they call the one who finishes bottom of the class at Med School ?

Doctor.

What do they call the one who finishes bottom of the class at Law School ?

No-one calls him.

[Loles]

... and do you know what is it, if 10 000 lawyers are chained and placed under water ?

ALL THE SAME!

[thailandbeachisland]

Finally we can tell the truth about Sunbelt ? So good that they left <3

[BlackJack]

many people dont understand that there is the lawyers fee

then the government fees, taxes, duties, VAT, under table, over table, clerical mistakes and do again, go to court and defendant doesnt show, get new trial date, bond money given to court to hear case, appeals, then go to court again, endless phone calls, faxes, Line, Skype, postage, couriers, etc etc.

Not many charge by the hour but I see it coming.

[giddyup]

Given the disparity in salaries and cost of living, I've never understood why a lawyer in Thailand is either more expensive, or at least on a par, with the cost of lawyers in Australia. It costs around 10,000 baht to draw up a simple will here, a lawyer in Australia will only charge around 7000 baht and even as low as 4000 baht if they do one for pensioners. i did my own will and registered it with the Amphur office, it was less than 1000 baht. I've only had to use one here once and that was for the chanoot and 30 year lease on the house. Hopefully never will again.

[ATF]

A proper Barrister to defend a serious court case will cost 100k up for a lesser case about 30K.

As others have said Thai Lawyers don't normally charge for advice and the advice they have given me over the years for free has saved me millions.

However like any profession you need a good practically experienced one who can get down and dirty. Not some rich guy's son with a brand new law degree working for an international co.