Former chief judge says state of emergency declaration unlawful: Thailand

[Spalpeen]

Excuse me, and I know you won't answer but what percentage of the total that he received for selling his own company was this 16 million dollars of unpaid CGT?

.

.

I'm somewhat mystified by this post, given that Thailand doesn't have a capital gains tax.

Yes

On sale of property it's 2.5%.

That's what a former landlord was paying when she sold one of her properties.

my point was that the tax ammount that was avoided or circumvented by the lawyers adds up to a very small part of the total. Thaksin ended up with almost 2000 million dollars.

So the figure of 16 million is put there to sensationalize.

Furthermore i thought that Dtac was sold to a group of norwegian investors prior to thaksin selling shin.

Nobody protested about that sale to foreigners did they?

.

No. Capital gain is treated as income for tax purposes. There is no CGT. The distinction is important.

[animatic]

Thaksin was expired as ACTING Caretaker PM.

He went to the palace and returned with a "no comment".

He was NOT given the position after his 'time dependent term' expired.

Though the laws on this point were not clear; What happens when a caretaker times out?

He then quit and his deputy took over the job.

A week later Thaksin unilaterally took the PM job back.

He was not sworn in to a second caretaker term, or as PM.

One thing was clear a PM must be sworn in, and resigning and having it accepted, restarts that process

Thaksin then did not say he was Caretaker PM he publicly called himself PM.

He then went to the UN in New York saying he was "Prime Minister Of Thailand",

to give a speech, that he effectively did not have the authority to give in that name.

There were also comments prior to departure he would create an SOE or Marshall Law.

There was a coup to remove him.

His 'legend' always says he was the PM removed from office.

But the reality is he was an expired caretaker PM,

and could be seen as acting as an usurper of the PM position.

Excellent post on the historical aspects of Thaksin's removal. Can you provide more on the events leading up to "Thaksin was expired as acting Caretaker PM." ? Or a link to an unbiased source of information on same? thanks in advance

It is out in the historical record but.

Thaksin won and election, but came within a hairs breadth of being removed for fiscal shenanigans by the Supreme Court.

Anywhere else he would have been removed, but they logic'd, he had just won a big election so we will ignore it.

During his term he hamstrung checks and balances agencies and sued any and all attempts to expose malfeasances.

This generated much bad feeling, in both the press and those losing to his schemes.

He mortgaged the country to Singapore for decades to pay off the IMF loans early removing the fiscal responsibility measures that came with the loans, allowing his regime greater leeway to do as they wished, simultaneously blaming those measures and the IMF for not making everyone rich.

He was re-elected, using public funds as populist perks, for the people in Issan and his Rice Network political machine

to ensure they voted for his parties. with in days he dictated to the parliament that the tax laws be changed to ones that favored his immediate business aims.

2 DAYS later

he sold his telecom business to Temasek, Singapore's investment branch, using proxies, while hiding much of the money

with his children and using off shore accounts to launder the funds. Then avoided paying $16 million in taxes due while saying he is doing all he can to help Thailands poor. This was the final straw for most all in opposition.

Thus started the PAD rallies, and a general upswelling of Anti-Thajksin sentiment.

The rise of the Caravan of The Poor, Rak Udon, Rak Chaing Mai and the Red Shirts et al as a street branch of his political parties.

He called a snap election just months after winning re-election in an effort to say ' See, the people don't care about my not paying taxes and selling the telecom company... I can do what I want.'

Then gets into the botched election, the entire election commission kicked out and eventually actually doing jail time,

The replacement election commission, the times out Caretaker PM status and resignation.

PAD increasing the rallies. TRT politicians marching from the park with Red shirts and slipping off, just before the Red Shirts attack a PAD group with machettes and slingshots.

Add the utterly faked attempted bomb assassination but some patsy from the DSI Attempts to use that for Marshall Law.

------- ------- ------- ------- ------- ------- -------

This is just a fraction of the Thaksin related bull poop I have observed since I've lived here.

Excuse me, and I know you won't answer but what percentage of the total that he received for selling his own company was this 16 million dollars of unpaid CGT?

1%?

2%?

2.5%?

Astronomical figures what?

What percentage would the lawyers and tax accountants have got?

1%?

2%?

2.5%

In France it's a minimum of 1% just to check the figures and 28% CGT? same in UK.

This is why the rich just get richer in Thailand and they can put on this jamboree we have currently on the streets.

It was front page news for years Parrot look it up yourself.

See you won't answer.

Pathetic.

Incidentally Korn, former deputy leader of the democrats, did the same thing in opposition.

Not pay the tax.

His answer "well I'm not the prime minister, na na na nana!"

Spouting a bunch of obscuring crap,

and shouting pathetic as a argument ad hominum,

doesn't change the facts of history on iota.

Point lost Parrot, call it a day.

[Thai at Heart]

Excuse me, and I know you won't answer but what percentage of the total that he received for selling his own company was this 16 million dollars of unpaid CGT?

.

.

I'm somewhat mystified by this post, given that Thailand doesn't have a capital gains tax.

Yes

On sale of property it's 2.5%.

That's what a former landlord was paying when she sold one of her properties.

my point was that the tax ammount that was avoided or circumvented by the lawyers adds up to a very small part of the total. Thaksin ended up with almost 2000 million dollars.

So the figure of 16 million is put there to sensationalize.

Furthermore i thought that Dtac was sold to a group of norwegian investors prior to thaksin selling shin.

Nobody protested about that sale to foreigners did they?

No they didn't...nor plenty of other investments by foreign entities into restricted businesses.

Dtac as far as I can find went through exactly the same type of sale. Difference being the law on the amount of share limited was changed by the govt.

The structure was approved by the best lawyers around. Many many big pooyai families have done the same thing for invesements. It's probably fair to say though that thaksin was the biggest and he jigged the ownership rules. He played a better hand than the others

Edited January 23, 2014 by Thai at Heart

[pantareiyingluck]

Would a gatheringvin Lumphini with TVF posters be an idea? The pro' s and contra's of this political difficult era to be discussed? Better then key boards. Do

[Trembly]

Would a gatheringvin Lumphini with TVF posters be an idea? The pro' s and contra's of this political difficult era to be discussed? Better then key boards. Do

Probably best it stays on the internet.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Trembly

[pantareiyingluck]

Would a gatheringvin Lumphini with TVF posters be an idea? The pro' s and contra's of this political difficult era to be discussed? Better then key boards. Do

Probably best it stays on the internet.

Still I think we could make a point. Foreigners showing capable of discussing their opinions. Many Thais also forget without foreign (ers) investments, there would not be much to quarrel about. From import, manufacturing, export, employment, tourism, to civilised democratic behavior. Sometimes we Westerners can learn from the East. But democratic principles: sometimes we are ahead and wiser.

[Trouble]

stay retired - nothing worse than someone who "used to" be something start meddling when there day is over

He's a former chief judge so his opinion matters. Just because you don't agree with him doesn't mean he's meddling. He's definitely more qualified then everyone on TV regarding this matter.

Only if he is unbiased in the matter. Sort of like asking TV members to give their opinions on any subject, isn't it? However, I have to agree that he is meddling in the matter. It's like having former Supreme Court Justices in the US rendering opinions on something that will be decided on by the current court justices. It only muddies the waters for the current court.

[SeaVisionBurma]

Rather lengthy post with messed up quotes removed.

[TVGerry]

stay retired - nothing worse than someone who "used to" be something start meddling when there day is over

He's a former chief judge so his opinion matters. Just because you don't agree with him doesn't mean he's meddling. He's definitely more qualified then everyone on TV regarding this matter.

Only if he is unbiased in the matter. Sort of like asking TV members to give their opinions on any subject, isn't it? However, I have to agree that he is meddling in the matter. It's like having former Supreme Court Justices in the US rendering opinions on something that will be decided on by the current court justices. It only muddies the waters for the current court.

Do you know for sure that he's biased? If not, then he is entitled to his opinion. As a retired professional, he can say whatever he wants since he knows what he's talking about. There are a lot of these talking heads on TV or professionals writing their opinions on various subjects in newspapers. Should all of them just shut up too?

[MrSlatersParrot]

Sale of Shin Corporation[edit]

Main article: Sale of Shin Corporation to Temasek Holdings

On 23 January 2006, the Shinawatra family sold their entire stake in Shin Corporation to Temasek Holdings. The Shinawatra and Damapong families netted about 73 billion baht (about US$1.88 billion) tax-free from the sale, using a regulation that made individuals who sell shares on the stock exchange exempt from capital gains tax.[127] The deal made Thaksin the target of accusations of corruption and selling an asset of national importance to a foreign entity.

Source Wikipedia

16 million into 1.88 billion = .85%

.85 of 1% tax avoided.

Earth shattering result.

So your post should really read thaksin avoided .85% tax.

That would be more balanced not so nuanced.

Didn't he explain at the time well the lawyers and accountants take care of these matters.

For a rich man they do. It happens all over the world.

Point proved!

Quote

[fasteddie]

Another legal ping pong bomb. The term "caretaker government", as widely used, does not appear to be defined in the constitution.

180(2) states that Ministers vacate office en masse upon [...] the dissolution of the House of Representatives", but

181 starts with "The outgoing Council of Ministers shall remain in office [...] and may perform duties only to the extent of necessity..." - and goes on to list certain restrictions.

So, is a "caretaker government" in office or not? There are restrictions on executive activities - that's why the EC was asked if it be allowed to spend unallocated monies to rice farmers (it would have been OK if they had been smart enough to figure this bit out before calling an election! doh!) - but there is a wide degree of interpretation as to what is deemed "necessary" - and by whom.

Again, poorly worded constitution.

"Again, poorly worded constitution."

Hey it's not easy to write a constitution that covers all bases to stop a democratically elected government from governing.

[fasteddie]

its like a plot to a Planet of the Apes movie . they find a dusty tome in a cupboard from the past and adhere to it without using some common sense and think out a sensible outcome and sit round grunting to each other about the minute details

even better than Planet of the Apes

Great sketch! I remember wetting myself every time I saw it, gonna wet meself later again! cheers.

[fasteddie]

I'm sure there will be a lot of hair-splitting views on this, but unless someone can prove that an ex-chief judge of the Supreme Court is raving bonkers, I'll take his word on this matter.

He could well be stark raving bonkers because he's referring to a constitution that was re-written by a military junta following on from the 2006 coup d'etat. In my view, once a constitution is meddled with by an unelected bunch of generals, it becomes worthless.

It doesn't really matter what you, I or anyone else thinks. The current Constitution is the one that everyone must legally operate under until such time as it is rewritten or amended. Simple as that.

Why? it's a constitution written by a dictatorship, which in itself is unconstitutional in a democracy.

[JRSoul]

Sale of Shin Corporation[edit]

Main article: Sale of Shin Corporation to Temasek Holdings

On 23 January 2006, the Shinawatra family sold their entire stake in Shin Corporation to Temasek Holdings. The Shinawatra and Damapong families netted about 73 billion baht (about US$1.88 billion) tax-free from the sale, using a regulation that made individuals who sell shares on the stock exchange exempt from capital gains tax.[127] The deal made Thaksin the target of accusations of corruption and selling an asset of national importance to a foreign entity.

Source Wikipedia

16 million into 1.88 billion = .85%

.85 of 1% tax avoided.

Earth shattering result.

So your post should really read thaksin avoided .85% tax.

That would be more balanced not so nuanced.

Didn't he explain at the time well the lawyers and accountants take care of these matters.

For a rich man they do. It happens all over the world.

Point proved!

Quote

If I was on trial, I would be very glad if you were NOT my defence counsel.

"But your honour, that $16 million was only a small percentage of his ill-gotten gains. And he doesn't actually read his tax returns, he only signs them."

[VegasVic]

Typical bias yellow judge nonsense. Part of the democratic reforms proposed by both sides should include purging the bias judiciary, EC, "checks and balances" etc and replace them with neutral, objective people.

It's actually worse than that, this fellow not only has a "yellow bias" but he is a FORMER chief judge, that would infer that he is no longer on the bench so why would anyone care about a retired judge's goofy interpretation of the constitution

[whybother]

Why? it's a constitution written by a dictatorship, which in itself is unconstitutional in a democracy.

They copied most of it word for word from the the 1997 "peoples constitution", and then people voted to accept it in a referendum.

[Cnxforever]

Why? it's a constitution written by a dictatorship, which in itself is unconstitutional in a democracy.

They copied most of it word for word from the the 1997 "peoples constitution", and then people voted to accept it in a referendum.

yes sure - if it would be as simple as this! So tell me then - why it was accepted in the referendum? What was the other "choice"?

[Nowhereman60]

Well I guess you can't depend on this guy again for a good ruling.