Another one bites the dust...

[benalibina]

How long is it that you know she has npd ?

[MrHammer]

Money and family/friends separate. Don't go into business with your wife or girlfriend, nor your best friend(s).

I am still surprised at how you could be so careless about the wife and the biz, but maybe not, because I am also more of an idea and action man in my business and administration bores me to death.

You'll bounce back as it sounds like. Perhaps wait a bit with the next marriage now that you already have two kids? I never really understood this desire to get married if you could just stay in a relationship without the legal aspects.

[brit1984]

How long is it that you know she has npd ?

She has never been medically diagnosed but my mum (who knows a lot more about psychology than me) has been warning me that she has it for years. She even secretly gave me books about NPD.

Afew times when we went to visit doctors in UK about unrelated issues, they could sense (I assume from her demeanour or use of language) something is not right but my wife always refused to discuss mental health issues.

There are different degrees of severity for NPD and while I have been sure for some time she has the condition, it's only now that this has happened AND she has shown no remorse that I see how severe her case is.

If you are living with someone with severe NPD, I'm afraid to say from my understanding it cannot be cured and treatment to treat it requires the patient to be committed to therapy (which goes against the nature of those with NPD).

[Somsrisonphimai]

Sorry to hear about your situation. It happens far more often than not. I have nothing but compassion for you, keep your head high, money is replaceable, and kids are priority. Good luck!

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Head Snake]

You say the in-laws are on your side; but, didn't you also say your gf put all the land titles in her mom's name? That doesn't jive.

I've not heard of many Thai families abandoning somebody who knows how to "make money". It seems like they always want to keep sources of money as acquaintances.

Good luck.

Edited January 26, 2014 by Head Snake

[brit1984]

Money and family/friends separate. Don't go into business with your wife or girlfriend, nor your best friend(s).

I am still surprised at how you could be so careless about the wife and the biz, but maybe not, because I am also more of an idea and action man in my business and administration bores me to death.

You'll bounce back as it sounds like. Perhaps wait a bit with the next marriage now that you already have two kids? I never really understood this desire to get married if you could just stay in a relationship without the legal aspects.

That's all good advice.

I never had any particular desire to get married, but at the same didn't really see it as a big deal (just a piece of paper).

The bigger issue was trusting/allowing another person to be in a position of significant control over me (and people I care about).

I'm obviously not in a particular hurry to get remarried (not least because I'm still married) and will be careful before putting another person in a position to damage me / my kids.

[cornishcarlos]

You say the in-laws are on your side; but, didn't you also say your gf put all the land titles in her mom's name? That doesn't jive.

I've not heard of many Thai families abandoning somebody who knows how to "make money". It seems like they always want to keep sources of money as acquaintances.

Good luck.

I think you might be confusing another poster with the OP...!!

Good luck Brits, you sound positive about the future so I'm sure it will all work out

[brit1984]

You say the in-laws are on your side; but, didn't you also say your gf put all the land titles in her mom's name? That doesn't jive.

I've not heard of many Thai families abandoning somebody who knows how to "make money". It seems like they always want to keep sources of money as acquaintances.

Good luck.

No land titles involved in this case, think that might be another sucker's story.

My in-laws have also lost (almost) everything to my wife (starting from well before I arrived) and they haven't been on good terms for a long time.

Other than my wife, and my staff, no Thai people have ever asked much from me and many have been very generous.

However, I'm well aware that people (not just Thais) are generally money minded so I try my best not to accept too much "generosity" so as not to create expectations of future financial benefits.

[Dancealot]

How long is it that you know she has npd ?

Npd is an acquired disorder. Some girls gradually develop this behavior to quickly attract men in a desperate attempt to nest and secure their future

On the other side. Some guys are attracted to girls living on the edge, to compensate for their previous relationship failure(s).

It's an explosive combination.

[vtjforyou]

Yes, all these wives are different until they cheat you !

I prefer to be a control freak and that these batches even have to ask me first before buying rice for office...

[Dancealot]

Well aren't you just a shinning light of humanity ?

Time for bed young man, you've had enough for one day...

+1 . We are all adults here, right..

[wym]

My condolences for your losses, and amazed to see how pragmatic and accepting you are about the whole thing, you are to be commended for how you're handling the aftermath.

I can completely identify with your story, as i let my wife handle all the bookkeeping for a large business I had built up to USD $3mil p.a. revenues in the past. When it all fell apart I realized I'd been foolish to focus so exclusively on the fun stuff - tech, operations management and marketing, and ignored the back office nitty gritty details.

Object lessons here not only in "romance" (no Thais involved in the above part of my life) as well as business.

I have also gone through a few divorces here in Thailand, and am now the proud single father of two lovely young kids.

Since your wife is probably on the back foot at the moment, and is asking for money (as you say, of course) then NOW is a very good time to secure your custody.

By far the least traumatic way - and most likely the least expensive as well - is to simply PAY her a one-time lump sum, in effect buying the children - and your freedom from future harassment.

The Thai process is very straightforward if you can come to an agreement beforehand - just go down to the amphur/khaet office together, fill out the forms and dictate your agreement to the official there.

In my case the mother of my children simply stated she was asking for no alimony and was willing of her own accord to voluntarily sign over all custody rights and parental authority to me, and acknowledged that she realized that this meant she had no further parental rights as their birth mother, including allowing me to have a future wife adopt the children without her having to give any further consent.

Now what I've learned in the five years since then, is that IF

- there is ANY chance she might end up having further contact with the kids (which I encourage as no matter what kids should know their real mum - just make sure it's all on YOUR terms)

- and/or ANY chance she might end up in a developed country jurisdiction with money for lawyer

then retain a lawyer in your back-home location to register the terms of your divorce there AND have her voluntarily cooperate with a full Termination of Parental Rights process - in the US this is done through the Probate Court system, and is relatively straightforward, you'll just have to wait until she's had little or no contact with the kids for at least six months or so.

The court will most likely ask Child Services in your jurisdiction to make a summary investigation and report, which can be done via Skype. You will most likely need to pay her some more money to continuously cooperate with this process until it's concluded.

This is the ONLY way to make sure you have ironclad 100% sole control over your and the kids' lives no matter where you live.

If you're sure you're never going to take them back home or to another developed-country jurisdiction, or that she won't bother pursuing her "natural rights" as a mother there, then you don't need to bother, just know it needn't be expensive nor take a lot of time and trouble.

Best of luck.

[wym]

How long is it that you know she has npd ?

Npd is an acquired disorder. Some girls gradually develop this behavior to quickly attract men in a desperate attempt to nest and secure their future

On the other side. Some guys are attracted to girls living on the edge, to compensate for their previous relationship failure(s).

It's an explosive combination.

Many many foreigners here end up with "damaged goods". I don't apply that term to single mothers or sex-workers, but girls with mental illness, sometimes serious.

Language and cultural difference issues make it difficult to spot, especially when they're young and sexy and oh so eager to please.

From a practical POV I think the only solution is to be vigilant for signs, and if ANY appear early on in the relationship start keeping a journal noting repeating patterns. When (not if) the relationship starts to go downhill, be ready to cut your losses and walk away early on, and certainly as soon as you become convinced she's really emotionally disturbed.

Cold-blooded manipulative behavior is obviously a key indicator in this case.

Just know the really clever ones can hide it all pretty perfectly until they've done their damage and no longer have a reason to keep you in the dark.

[Somsrisonphimai]

You say the in-laws are on your side; but, didn't you also say your gf put all the land titles in her mom's name? That doesn't jive.

I've not heard of many Thai families abandoning somebody who knows how to "make money". It seems like they always want to keep sources of money as acquaintances.

Good luck.

No land titles involved in this case, think that might be another sucker's story.

My in-laws have also lost (almost) everything to my wife (starting from well before I arrived) and they haven't been on good terms for a long time.

Other than my wife, and my staff, no Thai people have ever asked much from me and many have been very generous.

However, I'm well aware that people (not just Thais) are generally money minded so I try my best not to accept too much "generosity" so as not to create expectations of future financial benefits.

I don't believe people expect anything in return when they help out someone. Please don't feel obligate you need to repay them. I am almost sure that for most Thais, they believe their kind heart will be repaid in the future, not by the people they have helped but by different acquaintance and in a different form. It is similar to paying forward, they help you today, you help others tomorrow, an others help them the future. Well, that what I was taught.

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[geriatrickid]

Strange that you can, as the business owner and manager, let debts become so large, without knowing about it.

Anyway, by the sounds of it you have a good business, so work around it and trade out if you can...think how good the future will be without her and her hands in the till........head down, arse up and make it happen.....for the kids if nothing else.

Thanks for the positive advice/outlook...

I was of course very stupid and there are about 20 other people who were stupid - but my wife was very clever to control information flow between people so although we all knew something, none of us knew the full story.

The business was growing so fast that it made sense (on paper) we had debt, and I knew about a lot of it, but I didn't know interest or repayments had not been made and that follow on loans had been made (so the total debt is more than double what we knew about and with many people expecting repayment much sooner than we can pay).

Luckily most lenders have been very understanding and the senior managers have agreed to stick around and basically work for free until we repay suppliers/landlords/lenders, etc. There will be a tough couple of years but I'm confident and quite excited about the future thereafter with the leakage now blocked...

I'd like to pile own and heap abuse, however, if what you write is true, then you are the textbook example of "employee dishonesty", except in this case, it was a business partner. I say textbook, because typically the people who undertake these types of thefts are trusted long time employees.

This is why there are auditors and verifications at companies. Sure, one will say, but it was one of the owners. True, but it is not an uncommon type of theft and if it is any consolation, is not specific to "Thai" people. That's why it's a textbook example.

I think once you go through the facts and review what it is that could have been done better so there will not be a repeat, you will start kicking yourself because the warning signs will have been evident. It's easy to play the should've, could've game. It is what it is, and next time you will invest in a proper auditor and will do spot checks on easy red flags such as rent and supplier verifications (edited: Sometimes the people held out as accountants are not qualified. It's a hard decision at times, but the accountants may have some liability in this matter if they failed at their audit responsibilities or if they were complicit.) As you go through the review, you will probably discover fake invoices too. Maybe some of the employees knew, but couldn't say anything or were afraid to speak out. Would you have believed an employee had he or she come and told you of his/her concerns? Maybe someone knew and was fired by the wife.

As an aside, I think you will succeed. You have the right attitude. I suggest that you also consider protecting yourself. If you do not document the losses and follow up with formal legal charges, the wife could come back and haunt you as she continues to pile up debts and try and use the company as an asset to borrow against. The divorce settlement will be expensive unless you have the documentation in order. It will be difficult, but keep with your positive outlook and prepare for some setbacks. Some of the people saying they will keep working or will be patient with debt collection may not be so accommodating in a month or two, so be prepared for that. Your decision to be open and honest may hurt at first, but I think you are doing the right thing. As you cut back and trim expenses, people will understand. Your strategy of keeping everyone onside will work in your favour. They might start asking for cash in advance, but they'll also respect you for being honest. You aren't the first person to get screwed over in business and those who have been there that you transact with, may surprise you with their support. For what it's worth, I admire your strength, and resilience. Although that won't pay the rent or put food on the table, it's going to keep you sane and on track as you recover.

Edited January 26, 2014 by geriatrickid

[brit1984]

My condolences for your losses, and amazed to see how pragmatic and accepting you are about the whole thing, you are to be commended for how you're handling the aftermath.

I can completely identify with your story, as i let my wife handle all the bookkeeping for a large business I had built up to USD $3mil p.a. revenues in the past. When it all fell apart I realized I'd been foolish to focus so exclusively on the fun stuff - tech, operations management and marketing, and ignored the back office nitty gritty details.

Object lessons here not only in "romance" (no Thais involved in the above part of my life) as well as business.

I have also gone through a few divorces here in Thailand, and am now the proud single father of two lovely young kids.

Since your wife is probably on the back foot at the moment, and is asking for money (as you say, of course) then NOW is a very good time to secure your custody.

By far the least traumatic way - and most likely the least expensive as well - is to simply PAY her a one-time lump sum, in effect buying the children - and your freedom from future harassment.

The Thai process is very straightforward if you can come to an agreement beforehand - just go down to the amphur/khaet office together, fill out the forms and dictate your agreement to the official there.

In my case the mother of my children simply stated she was asking for no alimony and was willing of her own accord to voluntarily sign over all custody rights and parental authority to me, and acknowledged that she realized that this meant she had no further parental rights as their birth mother, including allowing me to have a future wife adopt the children without her having to give any further consent.

Now what I've learned in the five years since then, is that IF

- there is ANY chance she might end up having further contact with the kids (which I encourage as no matter what kids should know their real mum - just make sure it's all on YOUR terms)

- and/or ANY chance she might end up in a developed country jurisdiction with money for lawyer

then retain a lawyer in your back-home location to register the terms of your divorce there AND have her voluntarily cooperate with a full Termination of Parental Rights process - in the US this is done through the Probate Court system, and is relatively straightforward, you'll just have to wait until she's had little or no contact with the kids for at least six months or so.

The court will most likely ask Child Services in your jurisdiction to make a summary investigation and report, which can be done via Skype. You will most likely need to pay her some more money to continuously cooperate with this process until it's concluded.

This is the ONLY way to make sure you have ironclad 100% sole control over your and the kids' lives no matter where you live.

If you're sure you're never going to take them back home or to another developed-country jurisdiction, or that she won't bother pursuing her "natural rights" as a mother there, then you don't need to bother, just know it needn't be expensive nor take a lot of time and trouble.

Best of luck.

Thanks - that is really helpful advice. Your plan is a refined version of the basic plan I had in my mind, although I will wait until she needs my signature to remarry and trade for custody (rather than offering her more cash).

I will certainly try to cover all the bases back home in case either of us moves to a developed country (I suspect she has done so already actually, although I can't imagine she has a long-term visa) or in case Thailand becomes developed!

I'm on the same wavelength as you with regards to lacking interest in back-office/admin/treasury/etc and I'm know trying to remodel/grow my business in a way that minimizes the need for me to trust the people in these functions.

The reason I am feeling positive is that as well as all the business/money stuff, my wife also made by life living hell through verbal / emotional abuse and by cutting me off from my very loving family back home, with whom I can now reconnect.

[MAJIC]

I know of similar stories which beggar belief as to how and why.

Seems to me Transam,these stories always have a common thread."Well off person,doesn't understand how lucky they are" and trashes the efforts of those that made them of independant means (usually a partner) and the outcome is they are too simple minded to understand the damage they have done,invariably it involves theft,Money lenders, Bank Loans,sale of assets (unknown to the victim) sometimes a lover in the background, who has been cheating a long time,and financing the lovers expensive habits, Gambling Addiction,is quite a common downfall,and often leads to a devastating outcome,let us hope there are no children involved.

Stupid people do stupid things,but one thing they know: the victim has to pick up the check bin! but they didn't realise,they blew a chance of a lifetime!

[Bender]

Not everyone who smiles is evil but all evil people can smile. Watch out for evil people.

Just one thought, in thailand you do have something like 67 millions people.

Well, the whole country have heard/witnessed these stories about thai lady getting involved in a relationship with a wealthy foreigner, and in a very short

time did succeed to amass a mountain of money, to buy a house, jewelry, etc, etc. All they have to do, is just to pretend that she love the foreigner.

Just pretend now, and later rip him off.

There is no shortage of golddigger in thailand,-luckily not all of them- and as everyone knows, foreigners are all wealthy and so stupid...

My point is, (and what foreigner fell to understand!), the girl who will smile to you, the girl who will come to sit next to you in the subway, the girl who come

talk to you, the girl who said she loves you, the girl who is chasing you, well there is a fat chance that she is a evil golddigger... (of course except you, tv members, because you are so super). Because these evils are hungry and you are the prey.

Because of our money, i can date a different girl everyday of the year, but to found real love, i gonna have to be very very patient, very choosy.

I would have say; Not everyone who smiles is a golddiggerl but all golddiger people can will smile. Watch out for evil/golddigger people.

Now I would actually say my wife is very DIFFERENT because most Thai people are not evil monsters with NPD.

And here i would tend to say, every foreigner are the same...

I hope with this story about NPD, you dont try to tell us, that she is sick, she is not to blame, she is the victim of a mental disorder, she need help, she need a seconde chance

come on she just rip you off... like others, sorry to be harsh!

Edited January 26, 2014 by Bender

[crazygreg44]

really out of curiosity, i notice that you did have more than 3000 messages on tv, so here my question: Are you one of those members

who spent their times claiming how much their gf/wife is different, that she come from a good family, she is so honest, you can trust her with you life, she will never harm you, she is the best thing that did happen in your life, and she love you maak????!

(Well inspite of warning, the cultural gap, language barriere, difference of wealth, her family, etc etc)

Because if you are one of them, who spent his times to spread myths and <deleted> on tv, well in fact you might have fooled some other members, but the biggest victims is...you!

Now its time for some weeks holidays, and after to start to build back yourself, and dont run again in the same problems as it seems that some never learn.......

I am tempted to side your opinion, as the OP , with over 3200 posts on ThaiVisaForum, has obviously spend too much time behind the keyboard and left business to his Wife.

When you make the goat a gardener, don't cry over trampled,crushed and devoured flowers !!

[wym]

Thanks - that is really helpful advice. Your plan is a refined version of the basic plan I had in my mind, although I will wait until she needs my signature to remarry and trade for custody (rather than offering her more cash).

I will certainly try to cover all the bases back home in case either of us moves to a developed country (I suspect she has done so already actually, although I can't imagine she has a long-term visa) or in case Thailand becomes developed!

I'm on the same wavelength as you with regards to lacking interest in back-office/admin/treasury/etc and I'm know trying to remodel/grow my business in a way that minimizes the need for me to trust the people in these functions.

The reason I am feeling positive is that as well as all the business/money stuff, my wife also made by life living hell through verbal / emotional abuse and by cutting me off from my very loving family back home, with whom I can now reconnect.

Thanks, and of course it's your life, but from my experience:

Don't be proud about giving her money to get what you want, keep your focus on what's really important and try to keep your ego out of it.

IMO there's no way she'll give you what you want without any money at all unless you really play the hardest of hard ball plays like threatening her with arrest and jail time.

Don't forget she is the mother of your children and once you are sure you've protected yourself and them from her latent legal power to control your lives, it is in their interest (most important of all is the welfare of the kids) that you leave things open so they can have as good a relationship as possible with their natural birth mother, ideally spending time with her regularly.

I personally suspect that NOW is the time to move as aggressively as possible. Down the road she may well get more resources, advice confidence and self-justification to make things much more difficult and expensive for you.

Try to execute a complete and clean buyout ASAP.

Don't discount the dirty tricks that are so easy to do here, more so for the locals than we foreigners. And if she's a true sociopath she won't refrain from violence either.

Edited January 26, 2014 by wym

[iancnx]

Really sorry to hear this story. A good mate of mine has a similar type gf. He wouldn't listen to me. We are not in touch any longer unfortunately as I couldn't keep up the charade of treating her as if she was such a sweet good girl, butter wouldn't melt and all that, and of course she hates my guts cause she knows That I know. He too is blindly in for many many millions. Poor basvard! !

[puukao]

I am curious what kind of business you were running. Can you do Bankruptcy 7,11, 13, or whatever in Thailand? Have the banks sell some assets, put her on the hook for whatever she signed, etc... and then move on in some sort of restructuring agreement? Loan sharks are something that seem need to be paid immediately. I have a feeling they are not covered in bankruptcy court. anyhow, i would also try to sell equity, create incentives for your employees, and, above all else, move forward. easier said than done.

[speedtripler]

its a sad story but unfortunately very common over here

i left a thai gf running a small business and she ran it into the ground when i was too busy to manage it day to day

(it wasnt my main stream of income so it wasnt too bad but it was still making a couple of milion a year in profit )

she lied until the last moment and it was a big shock to one day find out she was a lying <deleted> who had a previous husband

she didnt tell me about although i was able to shut it down and kick her out luckily since everything was in my name

now shes got sweet FA and cant live on her own salary because shes used to a higher lifestyle and well ,som nom na ....!

is all that comes to mind

[MAJIC]

Sorry, for clarity on a few points...

Debts are mostly personal loans from mutual friends or people who I respect, hence why I will repay.

Our accountants were not responsible for handling cash / bank accounts, so it's not their fault. I trusted / allowed my wife to perform the treasury function, which was one of many stupid mistakes I made.

As my wife has not been paying rents, the landlords hold all the power and will support us to form new legal entities without my wife involved.

She has indeed defrauded the business, although sueing her would be pointless as we are quite sure she has already gambled away every baht but it remains an option for later.

My kids were living with us until this kicked off but they are better off with the in-laws until I get things under control, not least because the 20,000/month for the nanny is a luxury I cannot afford/justify right now.

After what has happened, I don't fully trust anyone (despite the in-laws appearing to be on my side) and am taking steps to protect my kids and secure custody of them, although my wife has never really bonded with them (I know that may be hard to imagine for anyone who has not met such a person).

Having Accountants that didn't warn you of large cash transactions,was no point in having them in the first place,and secondly,did you not look over,your Bank Statements? at least once a month?

[benalibina]

Sorry, for clarity on a few points...

Debts are mostly personal loans from mutual friends or people who I respect, hence why I will repay.

Our accountants were not responsible for handling cash / bank accounts, so it's not their fault. I trusted / allowed my wife to perform the treasury function, which was one of many stupid mistakes I made.

As my wife has not been paying rents, the landlords hold all the power and will support us to form new legal entities without my wife involved.

She has indeed defrauded the business, although sueing her would be pointless as we are quite sure she has already gambled away every baht but it remains an option for later.

My kids were living with us until this kicked off but they are better off with the in-laws until I get things under control, not least because the 20,000/month for the nanny is a luxury I cannot afford/justify right now.

After what has happened, I don't fully trust anyone (despite the in-laws appearing to be on my side) and am taking steps to protect my kids and secure custody of them, although my wife has never really bonded with them (I know that may be hard to imagine for anyone who has not met such a person).

Having Accountants that didn't warn you of large cash transactions,was no point in having them in the first place,and secondly,did you not look over,your Bank Statements? at least once a month?

No need to rub it in IMO. OP, i perceive, knows already the mistakes he has made. What has been done cannot be changed anymore.

[Dancealot]

Trolls don't come more blatant than "Julie H"

Just leave them alone and they'll disappear.

[jackr]

Sorry to hear that. Priority to secure kids and divorce ASAP. As she's all about money, at least it may keep things simple. FYI lots of Thais have personality disorders. All the best.

Edited January 26, 2014 by jackr

[theoldgit]

Flame removed, and some reasonable responses.

[David48]

As an aside, I think you will succeed. You have the right attitude. I suggest that you also consider protecting yourself. If you do not document the losses and follow up with formal legal charges, the wife could come back and haunt you as she continues to pile up debts and try and use the company as an asset to borrow against.

The divorce settlement will be expensive unless you have the documentation in order. It will be difficult, but keep with your positive outlook and prepare for some setbacks. Some of the people saying they will keep working or will be patient with debt collection may not be so accommodating in a month or two, so be prepared for that.

Your decision to be open and honest may hurt at first, but I think you are doing the right thing. As you cut back and trim expenses, people will understand. Your strategy of keeping everyone onside will work in your favour. They might start asking for cash in advance, but they'll also respect you for being honest.

You aren't the first person to get screwed over in business and those who have been there that you transact with, may surprise you with their support.

For what it's worth, I admire your strength, and resilience. Although that won't pay the rent or put food on the table, it's going to keep you sane and on track as you recover.

+1 ... great (part) post ...

[Nignoy]

well Brit ,if I didn't have her ashes in an eggtimer on my desk, I would say you had been living with my Late 2nd wife!!the only difference my 2nd was german and could not keep her mouth shut!!