Protest leader shot dead, 10 hurt in melee with reds outside Bang Na polling station

[MGP]

“but” is one of the most miserable words in the vocabulary. I don't like violence, but… No one should die, but… I love you, but…

[khunken]

Let me see if I have got the anti-protestor 'thinking' right.

First it's ok to kill someone you don't like and it can be celebrated.

Second it's not the police's job to protect people from violence.

Third it's the red shirt mobs who are the real 'law enforcers'.

Fourth all protestors are thugs, fascists, Nazis, and any other stupid name that makes one feel good.

Fifth the SOE is justified because groups are attacking the protestors.

Sixth the SOE in parts of the deep south have been so successful after 9+ years of renewal - so will be successful in Bangkok too.

Seventh we mustn't examine Suthep's stated aims and opinions too closely because some of them might make sense.

Eighth elections equate to democracy.

Ninth Suthep is just the same as Thaksin as long as we ignore convictions and outstanding court cases.

Tenth all Thailand's problems are the fault of the protestors if we don't look at the real cause.

Sort of like 10 commandments which the 'chosen one' handed down to his followers.

[Cricketnut]

Strange how some TV posters keep refering to the protesters as violent thugs ... when they are the ones getting killed .......

And what of the four red shirts killed in Ramkamhaeng? Its tit for tat people with no end in site... Call off the soi dogs and let the people vote as is their constitutional right.

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE 8.2 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Actually it was 3 reds who were killed after they killed a student. Funny how you conveniently forget the truth in your efforts to distort it....

OK hot shot show us the source....

Sent from my i-mobile i-STYLE 8.2 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Scott]

Post and replies removed.

[Old Man River]

What's interesting to me, is that Thaksin is 'bad' is basically taken as an Axiom..

Avoiding paying taxes is a VERY Thai/Asian thing. I seriously doubt the killings in the war on drugs drew much attention from Thais. I wasn't here during that, so I can't comment. Sure, I see this as a very serious offense, but did Thais? Or is this simply ammunition they use to attack him.

Or, did he simply play the corruption game different than the others?

I was here during that time, but prefer not to comment on it.

The tax issue was perceived as being very big, perhaps too big as the courts have given half back. The main comments on Thaksin are that the courts have adjudged him as criminally guilty and he has fled the country.

If people believe in democracy, then they should also believe in the democratic system. Let the courts handle things, not the assassins.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[Jasun]

Dying in the name of freedom of speech and freedom of expression, I understand. Dying in the name of trying to oppose it, makes no sense at all to me. Tragic.

[Trouble]

Seems to me that the debate among TV posters is getting somewhat vitriolic.

I think the division in opinions is basically about the method of going about change to bring a more just political system to the Thai people. No one here doesn't believe that Thaksin did not use his position to economic advantage while he was prime minister. Did he lead a wholesale effort to bring corruption to a new level? I think not. It was there before him and has always been part of the political and social structure in Thailand. Don't forget that the real reason for the coup in 2006 was the worry by the generals of Thaksin weakening their position. That is what really got them scared. All the claims about why the coup took place came about came out some months later in a paper by the coup leaders saying that corruption, abuse of power, lack of integrity, human rights violations, etc. were the reason they had to step in. These were just excuses they made up after the fact. The majority of the people, in fact, were not clamoring for his removal. He got prosecuted after the fact and found guilty of his financial misdeeds, rightly so. But the trial was politically motivated. They probably could have prosecuted and convicted half the generals of corruption as well. Also a coup is not generally accepted as a constitutional way of changing the government. No one in Thailand has a monopoly on corruption. There are those here that blame all the evils and problems of Thailand on Thaksin. It is an easy out but as we have all seen in the past, and Suthep is a prime example, most of the scandals and corruption of people in government never get prosecuted and the guilty are never punished. There are enough rumors surrounding almost every minister and high government official over the last 20 years to put them all in jail if they were prosecuted and the judicial system independent of political interference and bribes. With that said, those that side with the current government in this case, I think do so because they feel that decisions should be made at the ballot box. Suthep and his supporters brought a halt to the amnesty bill and showed the PTP that the people would not just sit down and let them do anything they wanted. It is now time for negotiation to occur. Suthep cannot just hold the city hostage as a means to his end. I have seen no analysis of his proposals to bring about reform and honestly doubt that he has thought that far ahead. He simply wants the current government out and that there be no election to select another one. We all saw that in Germany and Italy in the 1930's. That is not a method that most westerners recognize as a solution. It is time for Suthep to sit at the table and see what he can negotiate. Let him put forth his ideas in an open forum where things can be debated and negotiated. I do not see Suthep and his methods as a valid way for those that want change. The "Thaksin regime has to go" is a false battle cry in my opinion and a foolish and phony issue to use as a bargaining chip.

[SABloke]

Off topic: Is anyone watching Blue Sky - some of the clearest video footage I've seen clearly showing red-shirts (not army/police/MIBs) burning central world (denied by them for the past 4 years). Apparently this is the first time it's shown on TV?

Edited January 27, 2014 by SABloke

[Old Man River]

Seems to me that the debate among TV posters is getting somewhat vitriolic.

I think the division in opinions is basically about the method of going about change to bring a more just political system to the Thai people. No one here doesn't believe that Thaksin did not use his position to economic advantage while he was prime minister. Did he lead a wholesale effort to bring corruption to a new level? I think not. It was there before him and has always been part of the political and social structure in Thailand. Don't forget that the real reason for the coup in 2006 was the worry by the generals of Thaksin weakening their position. That is what really got them scared. All the claims about why the coup took place came about came out some months later in a paper by the coup leaders saying that corruption, abuse of power, lack of integrity, human rights violations, etc. were the reason they had to step in. These were just excuses they made up after the fact. The majority of the people, in fact, were not clamoring for his removal. He got prosecuted after the fact and found guilty of his financial misdeeds, rightly so. But the trial was politically motivated. They probably could have prosecuted and convicted half the generals of corruption as well. Also a coup is not generally accepted as a constitutional way of changing the government. No one in Thailand has a monopoly on corruption. There are those here that blame all the evils and problems of Thailand on Thaksin. It is an easy out but as we have all seen in the past, and Suthep is a prime example, most of the scandals and corruption of people in government never get prosecuted and the guilty are never punished. There are enough rumors surrounding almost every minister and high government official over the last 20 years to put them all in jail if they were prosecuted and the judicial system independent of political interference and bribes. With that said, those that side with the current government in this case, I think do so because they feel that decisions should be made at the ballot box. Suthep and his supporters brought a halt to the amnesty bill and showed the PTP that the people would not just sit down and let them do anything they wanted. It is now time for negotiation to occur. Suthep cannot just hold the city hostage as a means to his end. I have seen no analysis of his proposals to bring about reform and honestly doubt that he has thought that far ahead. He simply wants the current government out and that there be no election to select another one. We all saw that in Germany and Italy in the 1930's. That is not a method that most westerners recognize as a solution. It is time for Suthep to sit at the table and see what he can negotiate. Let him put forth his ideas in an open forum where things can be debated and negotiated. I do not see Suthep and his methods as a valid way for those that want change. The "Thaksin regime has to go" is a false battle cry in my opinion and a foolish and phony issue to use as a bargaining chip.

You win the TV award for the longest paragraph.

I am told that the % on contracts is at its highest. I agree, it is endemic here, but it is allegedly worse now. Neither of us would know.

We can't discuss the reason for the 2006 coup. Thaksin has publicly alluded to some things, which may be the case, but it isn't what you said.

There were issues during the 2006 elections. Google it. It has been discussed here and elsewhere ad-nauseum.

I don't agree with Suthep's tactics. There are good people in his group, but I would prefer to let the courts handle it. If they support YL, so be it and let's move on. This country needs stability.

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[englishoak]

Off topic: Is anyone watching Blue Sky - some of the clearest video footage I've seen clearly showing red-shirts (not army/police/MIBs) burning central world (denied by them for the past 4 years). Apparently this is the first time it's shown on TV?

Propagandist TV trying to create an us and them again >?, what does 4 years ago have to do with anything now, specifically ?.

Seriously this county needs to deal with the present and this playground mentality of they did this we are better than bs has to stop. The leap to the belief they are not the same as and therefore not to be treated or looked on as even the same race or worthy of the same rights as such is extremely dangerous... extremely

This is how the Nazis came to power, this is how racism flourishes, this is what the world is trying to stamp out not encourage.End of story

For the record, when people take away basic rights the people get violent, when you do it to people that already have little they will not just get violent but lash out and burning insured buildings of which some were no doubt insurance jobs anyway is no big deal. it is just stuff and material it dosnt even compare to human life ... burning a thousand buildings does not even compare to one human life.

Gets me real irritated when I see people inferring there is a difference in humans especially based on something as stupid as colour.

The violence is unwanted but also unsurprising and would happen in my own country and in my own back yard area very possibly beaten to death for trying to stop people from having their voice.

Tragedy a little girl lost her father but everyone is someone's father mother daughter or son, by infringing on their rights they are being abused and people can get either passive or very aggressive when abused. Hard or physical workers are more likely to react with aggression than a bunch of pen pushers and easy time elites, its just a fact of social and financial stability.

[AleG]

Off topic: Is anyone watching Blue Sky - some of the clearest video footage I've seen clearly showing red-shirts (not army/police/MIBs) burning central world (denied by them for the past 4 years). Apparently this is the first time it's shown on TV?

This?:

(Red Shirt Apologists engage your reality shields now)

[yt]http://youtu.be/Xcte6_2Ih0Y?t=16m[/yt]

Red Shirts shouting "Burn, burn, burn!", then they smash the windows, then they set it on fire. Conclusive proof that the army did it, of course.

Edited January 27, 2014 by AleG

[LarryBird]

Have you alld ever notice how the good posts and posters don't point fingers and call names, they just talk about issues and solutions?

'The reds', 'Yellow Thugs', 'Terrorists'.............

Do you people realize that if you were born in a rice field in Isaan, what you would most likely be? Oh, I know, not you.. You would have escaped all of the social forces holding you down to become a proper educated Thai, and thus joining the just side in all of this..............

[Exsexyman]

For those who went to a polling station to vote but were met with blockages - this is what you were voting for -

- a system where police sit for hours doing nothing while carnage is taken place under their very noses, who only show up hours later in order to make sure they don't accidentally intrude on the perpetrators, and then who go about looking officious and respectable, " collecting evidence " and making a quick trip to the post office to ship it express post to the Bermuda Triangle, while the perpetrators live to wreak terror again against unarmed citizens. A system where people would justify murder under these or any other circumstances, and a system so broken that the only justice delegated - is not by the police or by the courts - but by vigilante gangs who are allowed to operate with impunity against unarmed Thai citizens.

You weep for the right to uphold such a system, but you don't weep for murder.

Another one trying to justify the unjustifiable. People trying to exercise their democratic right to vote were not met with 'blockages', they were met by a howling mob physically preventing them from doing so. In any free society the basic democratic right of one person- one vote is taken for granted, not negotiable, i'm sure in your home country this is the case. Also i'm sure in your home country if a minority group of anti democrats were physically attempting to prevent citizens from exercising their democratic right to cast a vote, they would be dealt with by the security services quickly and firmly, with as much violence as was necessary. Some basic rights in a democracy are sacrosanct, and the freedom to cast your vote for whichever candidate you wish is probably the most sacrosanct of all. Yet so many on here from the West, where the right to a vote is taken for granted, are openly supporting a demagogue, a fascist who wants to trample all over this basic right for ordinary Thai people, and replace it with an unelected, self appointed 'council' of a few hundred like minded elite from the upper classes, who will then rule over the rest of the 60 odd million. Shameful.

As for your little literary attempt, "This is what you were voting for", i have to say it wouldn't have passed muster at a sixth form debating society. It was toe curlingly awful to be honest!

[Macrohistory]

Taking into consideration Thaksin's gleeful unleashing of the "police" in February 2003 to wantonly murder "drug dealers" -- that is, 2,500-or so suspected or accused or disliked or simply unlucky small-scale alleged retailers (and the children, friends, and relatives who happened to find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time) -- plus the reign of terror his bought-and-paid-for Black Shirts unleashed upon Bangkok in April-May 2010, it should be obvious to the dopey farang running-dogs-of-the-Reds that REMOVING THAKSIN FROM POLITICS IS A NECESSARY, THOUGH NOT SUFFICIENT, PRECONDITION FOR DEMOCRACY. That is to say, for all those fools who, astonishingly -- against all the evidence -- try to portray the violent, megalomaniacal Thaksin as some great hero of democracy, here's a clue: You will never see democracy again in Thailand if that blood-on-his-hands fugitive were ever allowed to return to this country and entrench his power. Thaksin stated on many occasions prior to the Sept. 2006 coup that democracy was not his goal; he wanted to run Thailand like a CEO; that is, like a big boss whose word is law. He wanted to discipline Thai society, like the angry, tunnel-visioned cop he was trained to be. Thaksin set as an objective to dis-empower the poor by cultivating their dependence on his financial largesse (acquired not by Steve Jobs-like entrepreneurial hard work but instead through paying kickbacks to get contracts to computerize the "police" force in the 1980s). Simply sitting back and allowing Thaksin to win this decades-long struggle -- let alone to help him in his cause by incessantly circulating propaganda, like stupid running-dogs -- would mean the utter impossibility of democracy ever reappearing for a generation or more, and the ruination of the Thai economy through wild, hare-brained schemes like the rice-pledging scam. In opposition, using occasionally non-democratic (but also, normally, non-violent) methods to prevent Thaksin's gluttonous lust for power from being realized is a small price to pay considering the alternative would be that Thaksin would crush all hope of democracy for 30 years or more. Everyone with a brain, a capacity for reason, and a willingness to study Thailand objectively -- not letting their own shame at being born into a lower class in some farang country where class prejudice is so strong that it distorts mental judgment and makes the self-loathing farang burn with envy and rage -- understands all of this to be demonstrably true. The formula is simple: Thaksin winning = no democracy for decades. Thaksin losing = a ray of hope that democracy can take root, though it will take a long, long time to undo all the damage that the power-mad man-in-the-sand and his mindless mobs of red- and black-shirted goons have caused to the political culture.

Macrohistory we humbly salute you for summarizing why the Shin Regime MUST be crushed, it couldn't have been written better!!!

Very kind of you to say, Shiok -- and the same goes for everyone else who responded so positively. It's also helpful that you quoted my original post, because at some point during the past few hours the "moderators" decided to censor the post out of existence by removing it without giving a reason -- even though the post received 17 "like" votes. Meanwhile, they let all kinds of other worthless, drivel-and-rant-filled posts (on this and countless other threads) simmer indefinitely like soi dog shit on a hot afternoon. Undoubtedly, they'll also soon remove this post because it shows I have the temerity to question their decisions. They mimic the neo-feudal authoritarian culture that most of us here on both sides of the political divide -- Thai and farang and foreign alike -- so strongly dislike. I suppose it's the only power they'll ever have a chance in life to wield.

[englishoak]

Taking into consideration Thaksin's gleeful unleashing of the "police" in February 2003 to wantonly murder "drug dealers" -- that is, 2,500-or so suspected or accused or disliked or simply unlucky small-scale alleged retailers (and the children, friends, and relatives who happened to find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time) -- plus the reign of terror his bought-and-paid-for Black Shirts unleashed upon Bangkok in April-May 2010, it should be obvious to the dopey farang running-dogs-of-the-Reds that REMOVING THAKSIN FROM POLITICS IS A NECESSARY, THOUGH NOT SUFFICIENT, PRECONDITION FOR DEMOCRACY. That is to say, for all those fools who, astonishingly -- against all the evidence -- try to portray the violent, megalomaniacal Thaksin as some great hero of democracy, here's a clue: You will never see democracy again in Thailand if that blood-on-his-hands fugitive were ever allowed to return to this country and entrench his power. Thaksin stated on many occasions prior to the Sept. 2006 coup that democracy was not his goal; he wanted to run Thailand like a CEO; that is, like a big boss whose word is law. He wanted to discipline Thai society, like the angry, tunnel-visioned cop he was trained to be. Thaksin set as an objective to dis-empower the poor by cultivating their dependence on his financial largesse (acquired not by Steve Jobs-like entrepreneurial hard work but instead through paying kickbacks to get contracts to computerize the "police" force in the 1980s). Simply sitting back and allowing Thaksin to win this decades-long struggle -- let alone to help him in his cause by incessantly circulating propaganda, like stupid running-dogs -- would mean the utter impossibility of democracy ever reappearing for a generation or more, and the ruination of the Thai economy through wild, hare-brained schemes like the rice-pledging scam. In opposition, using occasionally non-democratic (but also, normally, non-violent) methods to prevent Thaksin's gluttonous lust for power from being realized is a small price to pay considering the alternative would be that Thaksin would crush all hope of democracy for 30 years or more. Everyone with a brain, a capacity for reason, and a willingness to study Thailand objectively -- not letting their own shame at being born into a lower class in some farang country where class prejudice is so strong that it distorts mental judgment and makes the self-loathing farang burn with envy and rage -- understands all of this to be demonstrably true. The formula is simple: Thaksin winning = no democracy for decades. Thaksin losing = a ray of hope that democracy can take root, though it will take a long, long time to undo all the damage that the power-mad man-in-the-sand and his mindless mobs of red- and black-shirted goons have caused to the political culture.

Macrohistory we humbly salute you for summarizing why the Shin Regime MUST be crushed, it couldn't have been written better!!!

Very kind of you to say, Shiok -- and the same goes for everyone else who responded so positively. It's also helpful that you quoted my original post, because at some point during the past few hours the "moderators" decided to censor the post out of existence by removing it without giving a reason -- even though the post received 17 "like" votes. Meanwhile, they let all kinds of other worthless, drivel-and-rant-filled posts (on this and countless other threads) simmer indefinitely like soi dog shit on a hot afternoon. Undoubtedly, they'll also soon remove this post because it shows I have the temerity to question their decisions. They mimic the neo-feudal authoritarian culture that most of us here on both sides of the political divide -- Thai and farang and foreign alike -- so strongly dislike. I suppose it's the only power they'll ever have a chance in life to wield.

That is probably because your a banned member under yet another name. Stop whining like a child about breaking the rules and having posts deleted, you should read them and abide by them first or go post on a less moderated forum.

Sorry but the vast majority of the free world is against the fascist ideal and Thailand's progress prior to Thaksin being elected was painful and like it or not under his watch for a good few years it blossomed more than it had in decades.... now that aside and whatever paranoia Thailand has for Thaksin economically and in policy it advanced the country decades in a few short years. That is fact not fiction even though i dislike the man i accept the impact it had here.

What you have now is a vastly more wealthy elite than a decade ago and they want the control back, not by election but by theft, exactly what they accuse Thaksin of being only this theft is the freedom of people to decide their fate. the word of Suthep is the word of a corrupt proven liar .. also fact.

Go get the majority before you claim to know whats good for the country, your a bunch of fascist thugs with a large bank account and the backing of .... and wish to return this place to their own dynastic autocracy ( as if its not already ) only by not the Shins thats the only difference some are fooled but the majority both here and abroad are not.

Mark my words Thailand will start to crumble if this comes to pass and the country will stagnate, not one proper reform will happen that has any impact on the vastly corrupted and elite run state areas and the thing they are really scared of is equality for the masses. The result will be a real revolution and many will die if it happens.

True revolution and reform does not come from those who have wealth but from those who have nothing. This movement is lead by a corrupt lying and disgraced ex politician for a corrupt wealthy elite part of society just pulling along the sheep.

You will no doubt be trying to spread the propaganda as many do but honestly the free world sees it for what it is and so does the vast majority of decent normal thais. You are not the voice of the Thai people but the voice of fascism and face of nepotism

Good night.

Edited January 27, 2014 by englishoak

[Macrohistory]

Taking into consideration Thaksin's gleeful unleashing of the "police" in February 2003 to wantonly murder "drug dealers" -- that is, 2,500-or so suspected or accused or disliked or simply unlucky small-scale alleged retailers (and the children, friends, and relatives who happened to find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time) -- plus the reign of terror his bought-and-paid-for Black Shirts unleashed upon Bangkok in April-May 2010, it should be obvious to the dopey farang running-dogs-of-the-Reds that REMOVING THAKSIN FROM POLITICS IS A NECESSARY, THOUGH NOT SUFFICIENT, PRECONDITION FOR DEMOCRACY. That is to say, for all those fools who, astonishingly -- against all the evidence -- try to portray the violent, megalomaniacal Thaksin as some great hero of democracy, here's a clue: You will never see democracy again in Thailand if that blood-on-his-hands fugitive were ever allowed to return to this country and entrench his power. Thaksin stated on many occasions prior to the Sept. 2006 coup that democracy was not his goal; he wanted to run Thailand like a CEO; that is, like a big boss whose word is law. He wanted to discipline Thai society, like the angry, tunnel-visioned cop he was trained to be. Thaksin set as an objective to dis-empower the poor by cultivating their dependence on his financial largesse (acquired not by Steve Jobs-like entrepreneurial hard work but instead through paying kickbacks to get contracts to computerize the "police" force in the 1980s). Simply sitting back and allowing Thaksin to win this decades-long struggle -- let alone to help him in his cause by incessantly circulating propaganda, like stupid running-dogs -- would mean the utter impossibility of democracy ever reappearing for a generation or more, and the ruination of the Thai economy through wild, hare-brained schemes like the rice-pledging scam. In opposition, using occasionally non-democratic (but also, normally, non-violent) methods to prevent Thaksin's gluttonous lust for power from being realized is a small price to pay considering the alternative would be that Thaksin would crush all hope of democracy for 30 years or more. Everyone with a brain, a capacity for reason, and a willingness to study Thailand objectively -- not letting their own shame at being born into a lower class in some farang country where class prejudice is so strong that it distorts mental judgment and makes the self-loathing farang burn with envy and rage -- understands all of this to be demonstrably true. The formula is simple: Thaksin winning = no democracy for decades. Thaksin losing = a ray of hope that democracy can take root, though it will take a long, long time to undo all the damage that the power-mad man-in-the-sand and his mindless mobs of red- and black-shirted goons have caused to the political culture.

Macrohistory we humbly salute you for summarizing why the Shin Regime MUST be crushed, it couldn't have been written better!!!

Very kind of you to say, Shiok -- and the same goes for everyone else who responded so positively. It's also helpful that you quoted my original post, because at some point during the past few hours the "moderators" decided to censor the post out of existence by removing it without giving a reason -- even though the post received 17 "like" votes. Meanwhile, they let all kinds of other worthless, drivel-and-rant-filled posts (on this and countless other threads) simmer indefinitely like soi dog shit on a hot afternoon. Undoubtedly, they'll also soon remove this post because it shows I have the temerity to question their decisions. They mimic the neo-feudal authoritarian culture that most of us here on both sides of the political divide -- Thai and farang and foreign alike -- so strongly dislike. I suppose it's the only power they'll ever have a chance in life to wield.

That is probably because your a banned member under yet another name. Stop whining like a child about breaking the rules and having posts deleted, you should read them and abide by them first or go post on a less moderated forum.

Sorry but the vast majority of the free world is against the fascist ideal and Thailand's progress prior to Thaksin being elected was painful and like it or not under his watch for a good few years it blossomed more than it had in decades.... now that aside and whatever paranoia Thailand has for Thaksin economically and in policy it advanced the country decades in a few short years. That is fact not fiction even though i dislike the man i accept the impact it had here.

What you have now is a vastly more wealthy elite than a decade ago and they want the control back, not by election but by theft, exactly what they accuse Thaksin of being only this theft is the freedom of people to decide their fate. the word of Suthep is the word of a corrupt proven liar .. also fact.

Go get the majority before you claim to know whats good for the country, your a bunch of fascist thugs with a large bank account and the backing of .... and wish to return this place to their own dynastic autocracy ( as if its not already ) only by not the Shins thats the only difference some are fooled but the majority both here and abroad are not.

Mark my words Thailand will start to crumble if this comes to pass and the country will stagnate, not one proper reform will happen that has any impact on the vastly corrupted and elite run state areas and the thing they are really scared of is equality for the masses. The result will be a real revolution and many will die if it happens.

True revolution and reform does not come from those who have wealth but from those who have nothing. This movement is lead by a corrupt lying and disgraced ex politician for a corrupt wealthy elite part of society just pulling along the sheep.

You will no doubt be trying to spread the propaganda as many do but honestly the free world sees it for what it is and so does the vast majority of decent normal thais. You are not the voice of the Thai people but the voice of fascism and face of nepotism

Good night.

A. No, i'm not a banned poster posting under another name.

B. Your comment, "Thailand's progress prior to Thaksin being elected was painful and like it or not under his watch for a good few years it blossomed more than it had in decades," is revoltingly ignorant. The democratic progress came from 1992 through 2000, with the high point being promulgation of the 1997 "people's constitution." In December 2000, Thaksin violated that progressive constitution by willfully concealing his huge assets (acquired through rent-seeking rather than entrepreneurship); he was nevertheless absolved of this crime by the 5-4 vote of the weak-kneed Constitutional Court in August 2001; next, Thaksin began alienating the NGOs who originally supported him, along with other good citizens then trying genuinely to empower upcountry poor communities -- he did this by high-handedly using "CEO-style" authoritarian tactics; and then he started exterminating the so-called "drug dealers" (even the ones who were only 5 years old) in February 2003. Yes, Thailand under those "good few years" of the Thaksin regime was "blossoming," indeed -- like poppies on the fields of France after 1917.

[AleG]

That is probably because your a banned member under yet another name. Stop whining like a child about breaking the rules and having posts deleted, you should read them and abide by them first or go post on a less moderated forum.

Sorry but the vast majority of the free world is against the fascist ideal and Thailand's progress prior to Thaksin being elected was painful and like it or not under his watch for a good few years it blossomed more than it had in decades.... now that aside and whatever paranoia Thailand has for Thaksin economically and in policy it advanced the country decades in a few short years. That is fact not fiction even though i dislike the man i accept the impact it had here.

What you have now is a vastly more wealthy elite than a decade ago and they want the control back, not by election but by theft, exactly what they accuse Thaksin of being only this theft is the freedom of people to decide their fate. the word of Suthep is the word of a corrupt proven liar .. also fact.

Go get the majority before you claim to know whats good for the country, your a bunch of fascist thugs with a large bank account and the backing of .... and wish to return this place to their own dynastic autocracy ( as if its not already ) only by not the Shins thats the only difference some are fooled but the majority both here and abroad are not.

Mark my words Thailand will start to crumble if this comes to pass and the country will stagnate, not one proper reform will happen that has any impact on the vastly corrupted and elite run state areas and the thing they are really scared of is equality for the masses. The result will be a real revolution and many will die if it happens.

True revolution and reform does not come from those who have wealth but from those who have nothing. This movement is lead by a corrupt lying and disgraced ex politician for a corrupt wealthy elite part of society just pulling along the sheep.

You will no doubt be trying to spread the propaganda as many do but honestly the free world sees it for what it is and so does the vast majority of decent normal thais. You are not the voice of the Thai people but the voice of fascism and face of nepotism

Good night.

True revolution and reform does not come from those who have wealth but from those who have nothing.

Somewhere a history teacher wept.

The American Revolution? A bunch of elitist rich guys. Mao came from a wealthy family, Lenin's parents were <deleted>' nobles, Simon Bolivar born from aristocracy, etc, etc...

True revolution and reform comes either from people with the wealth to push it through (by crook or by hook), or the education and charisma to envision a new paradigm and entice the masses to follow, preferably both. Those with nothing, neither wealth of education usually produce revolts and little more. Unless you'd like to argue, for instance, that a rabble of hilbillies could had written the US constitution.

Edited January 27, 2014 by AleG

[englishoak]

That is probably because your a banned member under yet another name. Stop whining like a child about breaking the rules and having posts deleted, you should read them and abide by them first or go post on a less moderated forum.

Sorry but the vast majority of the free world is against the fascist ideal and Thailand's progress prior to Thaksin being elected was painful and like it or not under his watch for a good few years it blossomed more than it had in decades.... now that aside and whatever paranoia Thailand has for Thaksin economically and in policy it advanced the country decades in a few short years. That is fact not fiction even though i dislike the man i accept the impact it had here.

What you have now is a vastly more wealthy elite than a decade ago and they want the control back, not by election but by theft, exactly what they accuse Thaksin of being only this theft is the freedom of people to decide their fate. the word of Suthep is the word of a corrupt proven liar .. also fact.

Go get the majority before you claim to know whats good for the country, your a bunch of fascist thugs with a large bank account and the backing of .... and wish to return this place to their own dynastic autocracy ( as if its not already ) only by not the Shins thats the only difference some are fooled but the majority both here and abroad are not.

Mark my words Thailand will start to crumble if this comes to pass and the country will stagnate, not one proper reform will happen that has any impact on the vastly corrupted and elite run state areas and the thing they are really scared of is equality for the masses. The result will be a real revolution and many will die if it happens.

True revolution and reform does not come from those who have wealth but from those who have nothing. This movement is lead by a corrupt lying and disgraced ex politician for a corrupt wealthy elite part of society just pulling along the sheep.

You will no doubt be trying to spread the propaganda as many do but honestly the free world sees it for what it is and so does the vast majority of decent normal thais. You are not the voice of the Thai people but the voice of fascism and face of nepotism

Good night.

True revolution and reform does not come from those who have wealth but from those who have nothing.

Somewhere a history teacher wept.

The American Revolution? A bunch of elitist rich guys. Mao came from a wealthy family, Lenin's parents were <deleted>' nobles, Simon Bolivar born from aristocracy, etc, etc...

True revolution and reform comes either from people with the wealth to push it through (by crook or by hook), or the education and charisma to envision a new paradigm and entice the masses to follow, preferably both. Those with nothing, neither wealth of education usually produce revolts and little more. Unless you'd like to argue, for instance, that a rabble of hilbillies could had written the US constitution.

"sigh" Still persisting with the attempted petty insults I see, funny quip about your teacher thing im a history major and could have taught should I have wished. I do shed tears when people like to pick out a small part but ignore the main... Ho hum very well young man, let me make it clearer for you before you embarrass yourself further.

Your being selective, Ho Chi Minh, Che Guevara, Gandhi, Spartacus, Michael Collins, Spartacus, Joan of Arc, William Wallace etc could give dozens more there are plenty of examples of unwealthy revolutionary leaders as well as those with wealth. They are not the success they are just the figureheads.

The people are the ones that push it through or decide if it fails, its called critical mass, sometimes the finance comes from those with money in it but often its silent backers ( like now ) but its the people who give it real legs and they are the ones with nothing not those with it already, .....every single time the revolutionary troops are mainly the poor not the wealthy of which there are never enough, it is the poor and without them it stalls, critical mass young man without it no revolution will last as it must have the majority behind it ... ie ( pay attn now ) the poor .

Thailand's peoples revolution is not one of the masses but in the main the richer minority, it will not and cannot succeed.

Why you persist in trying to argue the facts and focus on selective points that I have not even mentioned like a leader that indeed must have vision and usually has some form of education better than the ones who follow is frankly pointless.

The rich do not go to die, the rich do not fight physically for anything they nearly always send their minions out to do it for them, just as you wont see Suthep at a trouble spot or Thaksin or any other elite. The success behind Thaksin as we all know is the poor en mass and Suthep & co does not have that, not by a long shot

Now excuse me I must be up in a few hrs for work. You may PM me for further history lessons if you wish but I must ask you to stay polite and awake.

[AleG]

True revolution and reform does not come from those who have wealth but from those who have nothing.

Somewhere a history teacher wept.

The American Revolution? A bunch of elitist rich guys. Mao came from a wealthy family, Lenin's parents were <deleted>' nobles, Simon Bolivar born from aristocracy, etc, etc...

True revolution and reform comes either from people with the wealth to push it through (by crook or by hook), or the education and charisma to envision a new paradigm and entice the masses to follow, preferably both. Those with nothing, neither wealth of education usually produce revolts and little more. Unless you'd like to argue, for instance, that a rabble of hilbillies could had written the US constitution.

"sigh" Still persisting with the attempted petty insults I see, funny quip about your teacher thing im a history major and could have taught should I have wished. I do shed tears when people like to pick out a small part but ignore the main... Ho hum very well young man, let me make it clearer for you before you embarrass yourself further.

Your being selective, Ho Chi Minh, Che Guevara, Gandhi, Spartacus, Michael Collins, Spartacus, Joan of Arc, William Wallace etc could give dozens more there are plenty of examples of unwealthy revolutionary leaders as well as those with wealth. They are not the success they are just the figureheads.

The people are the ones that push it through or decide if it fails, its called critical mass, sometimes the finance comes from those with money in it but often its silent backers ( like now ) but its the people who give it real legs and they are the ones with nothing not those with it already, .....every single time the revolutionary troops are mainly the poor not the wealthy of which there are never enough, it is the poor and without them it stalls, critical mass young man without it no revolution will last as it must have the majority behind it ... ie ( pay attn now ) the poor .

Thailand's peoples revolution is not one of the masses but in the main the richer minority, it will not and cannot succeed.

Why you persist in trying to argue the facts and focus on selective points that I have not even mentioned like a leader that indeed must have vision and usually has some form of education better than the ones who follow is frankly pointless.

The rich do not go to die, the rich do not fight physically for anything they nearly always send their minions out to do it for them, just as you wont see Suthep at a trouble spot or Thaksin or any other elite. The success behind Thaksin as we all know is the poor en mass and Suthep & co does not have that, not by a long shot

Now excuse me I must be up in a few hrs for work. You may PM me for further history lessons if you wish but I must ask you to stay polite and awake.

Petty insults, such as?

The fact remains that the statement, "True revolution and reform does not come from those who have wealth but from those who have nothing. " is demostrably false, revolution and reform can come both from those that have nothing and those with wealth.

Besides that, Joan d'Arc, revoultionary and reformer? seriously?