What happens if your Thai spouse predeceases you.

[playbgnow]

What would happen if your Thai spouse predeceases you and you have lived on her/his land where you built a house on?

Considering as well that the spouse has a child from a previous partnership.

Also considering that this is a long time marriage (over 20 years).

What would happen at various age groups? For example, if the widow/er was in his/her 40's - 50's -- 70's +?

Thought this worthy of consideration as we must make plans for our lives and have heard nothing on this scenario.

[iancnx]

A good topic indeed. In my case my Thai son from our marriage (aged 1) would inherit the land and he is already in the blue house book for one of our two dwellings on 1 Rai. I have a lifelong Usefruct on the land. I suspect the Usefruct would be honoured whilst the chanot would have to be transferred to his name at some point.

Interested to hear the expert view here

[Mario2008]

Moved to housing forum.

[Mario2008]

What would hapen is that in the first place you would lose your permission to stay if based on marriage. So you would need to have a new reason to stay and comply with the rules for an extension based on that.

If the land is in the misses name, you will have 1 year to sell the land as you yourself cannot own it. The usefruct would be honoured.

It would be best to have the misses make a will, so there is no confusion about who the land goes to or between who it has to be shared. Without a will the court will make decision, as both yu and the child will have a claim to the land (and house).

The house can be in your name without any problem, but you will need the usefruct for the land.

[playbgnow]

What is a usefruct?

[Mario2008]

A usefruct is a contract that allows you to use the land, even if the land i sold to another party.

[KhunBENQ]

usufruct

one of the more rarely seen words/legal term (for non native speakers).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usufruct

In German its: "Nießbrauch":

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nie%C3%9Fbrauch

I am in similar situation, living in the house and on the land that is owned by my wife.

We live together with a (step)daughter and her child.

I did not care too much about legal precautions.

My wife ensured me, that there is no doubt that her daughter will inherit.

For me: hard to believe that I will be happy living on the village without my wife.

She thinks that I could and ensures me that her daughter likes me to stay,

But who knows.

So I am prepared (at least financially) to leave (promise to fund the children reasonably).

Edited January 27, 2014 by KhunBENQ

[MMarlow]

What would hapen is that in the first place you would lose your permission to stay if based on marriage. So you would need to have a new reason to stay and comply with the rules for an extension based on that.

If the land is in the misses name, you will have 1 year to sell the land as you yourself cannot own it. The usefruct would be honoured.

It would be best to have the misses make a will, so there is no confusion about who the land goes to or between who it has to be shared. Without a will the court will make decision, as both yu and the child will have a claim to the land (and house).

The house can be in your name without any problem, but you will need the usefruct for the land.

"...so there is no confusion about who the land goes to..."

Mario, surely the surviving spouse as next of kin, assuming there was a legal marriage, would automatically inherit from the deceased if the deceased died intestate? Eg I am married with the marriage registered, if I die intestate tomorrow my wife will inherit from me, my son from our marriage will not, unless my will stipulates otherwise. I think that is correct, yes?

[MMarlow]

What would hapen is that in the first place you would lose your permission to stay if based on marriage. So you would need to have a new reason to stay and comply with the rules for an extension based on that.

If the land is in the misses name, you will have 1 year to sell the land as you yourself cannot own it. The usefruct would be honoured.

It would be best to have the misses make a will, so there is no confusion about who the land goes to or between who it has to be shared. Without a will the court will make decision, as both yu and the child will have a claim to the land (and house).

The house can be in your name without any problem, but you will need the usefruct for the land.

"...so there is no confusion about who the land goes to..."

Mario, surely the surviving spouse as next of kin, assuming there was a legal marriage, would automatically inherit from the deceased if the deceased died intestate? Eg I am married with the marriage registered, if I die intestate tomorrow my wife will inherit from me, my son from our marriage will not, unless my will stipulates otherwise. I think that is correct, yes?

[garyk]

You would assume after thousands of papers have written about Thailand. And this being one of the main issues. People would understand?

After living here for a few years. And seeing with my own eyes what goes on here. It just amazes me people still do this kind of thing.

Anyone thinking of retiring in Thailand reading this. It is a renters paradise. I am not kidding. Paradise.

Edited January 27, 2014 by garyk

[bbbbooboo]

hmmm......I suspect we will be farked if our thai spouse dies before us. They seem to have .worked out a system where we as "aliens" will be shagged whatever happens. The consistency of stupidity in LOS never seems to amaze me

[Mario2008]

What would hapen is that in the first place you would lose your permission to stay if based on marriage. So you would need to have a new reason to stay and comply with the rules for an extension based on that.

If the land is in the misses name, you will have 1 year to sell the land as you yourself cannot own it. The usefruct would be honoured.

It would be best to have the misses make a will, so there is no confusion about who the land goes to or between who it has to be shared. Without a will the court will make decision, as both yu and the child will have a claim to the land (and house).

The house can be in your name without any problem, but you will need the usefruct for the land.

"...so there is no confusion about who the land goes to..."

Mario, surely the surviving spouse as next of kin, assuming there was a legal marriage, would automatically inherit from the deceased if the deceased died intestate? Eg I am married with the marriage registered, if I die intestate tomorrow my wife will inherit from me, my son from our marriage will not, unless my will stipulates otherwise. I think that is correct, yes?

Best ask a competent lawyer and I am certainly not an expert regarding this subject, but my understanding is that both surviving souse and the children will inherit the estate and be entitled to their share. (if there is no will).

Even if the land would completely go to the surviving spouse, if that is a foreigner the land must still be sold within 1 year. So the inheritance would in practical sense be the value of the land, not the land itself.

Best to protect yourself with a usufruct on the land and maybe ownership of the house, arranged by legal contract. (usufruct registered at the land office and an official will.

[Mario2008]

hmmm......I suspect we will be farked if our thai spouse dies before us. They seem to have .worked out a system where we as "aliens" will be shagged whatever happens. The consistency of stupidity in LOS never seems to amaze me

Total nonsense.

The only problem here is that a foreigner cannot own land son in case you inherit it you must sell it, but in an inheritance you have the same position as every other Thai.

[rayongchelsea]

What would hapen is that in the first place you would lose your permission to stay if based on marriage. So you would need to have a new reason to stay and comply with the rules for an extension based on that.

If the land is in the misses name, you will have 1 year to sell the land as you yourself cannot own it. The usefruct would be honoured.

It would be best to have the misses make a will, so there is no confusion about who the land goes to or between who it has to be shared. Without a will the court will make decision, as both yu and the child will have a claim to the land (and house).

The house can be in your name without any problem, but you will need the usefruct for the land.

"...so there is no confusion about who the land goes to..."

Mario, surely the surviving spouse as next of kin, assuming there was a legal marriage, would automatically inherit from the deceased if the deceased died intestate? Eg I am married with the marriage registered, if I die intestate tomorrow my wife will inherit from me, my son from our marriage will not, unless my will stipulates otherwise. I think that is correct, yes?

No. Read the intestate rules. Parents of deceased,spouse, children would all have some claim.

My wife died intestate..get a will done immediately..my situation resulted in the land and house being gifted to my daughter not all beneficiaries maybe so willing.

As to the 1 year rule, this is from the date of probate ( flexible)

Make yourself the administrator of the estate.

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[Jip99]

What would hapen is that in the first place you would lose your permission to stay if based on marriage. So you would need to have a new reason to stay and comply with the rules for an extension based on that.

If the land is in the misses name, you will have 1 year to sell the land as you yourself cannot own it. The usefruct would be honoured.

It would be best to have the misses make a will, so there is no confusion about who the land goes to or between who it has to be shared. Without a will the court will make decision, as both yu and the child will have a claim to the land (and house).

The house can be in your name without any problem, but you will need the usefruct for the land.

"...so there is no confusion about who the land goes to..."

Mario, surely the surviving spouse as next of kin, assuming there was a legal marriage, would automatically inherit from the deceased if the deceased died intestate? Eg I am married with the marriage registered, if I die intestate tomorrow my wife will inherit from me, my son from our marriage will not, unless my will stipulates otherwise. I think that is correct, yes?

Think again... 50/50 at best.

Thai inheritance laws

If you have NOT made a Last Will or Testament, or valid will, the law (intestacy rules) will determine what happens to your assets when you die. Under Thai inheritance laws this generally means that the assets will be distributed amongst the statutory heirs. Under section 1629 of the Civil and Commercial Code of Thailand there are 6 classes of statutory heirs and they are entitled to inherit in the following order:

1. descendants
2. parents
3. brothers and sisters of full blood
4. brothers and sisters of half blood
5. grandparents
6. uncles and aunts
7. The surviving spouse is a statutory heir, subject to the special provisions of Section 1635 Civil and Commercial Code.

Distribution in the absence of a will

Thai inheritance laws designate intestate heirs and so long as there is an heir surviving in one of the classes, the heir of the lower class has no entitlement to share in the assets. The one exception is where there is a descendant and a parent in which case they take an equal share (section 1630). If there is more than one heir in any one class, they take an equal share of the entitlement available to that class. The surviving spouse is a statutory heir but their entitlement depends on what other class of statutory heir exists. If there are surviving children of the deceased, the spouse and children take the estate between them. Therefore, if there are three children, then the estate is divided in to four equal shares.

(per samuiforsale.com)

[MMarlow]

Think again... 50/50 at best.

Thai inheritance laws

If you have NOT made a Last Will or Testament, or valid will, the law (intestacy rules) will determine what happens to your assets when you die. Under Thai inheritance laws this generally means that the assets will be distributed amongst the statutory heirs. Under section 1629 of the Civil and Commercial Code of Thailand there are 6 classes of statutory heirs and they are entitled to inherit in the following order:

1. descendants
2. parents
3. brothers and sisters of full blood
4. brothers and sisters of half blood
5. grandparents
6. uncles and aunts
7. The surviving spouse is a statutory heir, subject to the special provisions of Section 1635 Civil and Commercial Code.

Distribution in the absence of a will

Thai inheritance laws designate intestate heirs and so long as there is an heir surviving in one of the classes, the heir of the lower class has no entitlement to share in the assets. The one exception is where there is a descendant and a parent in which case they take an equal share (section 1630). If there is more than one heir in any one class, they take an equal share of the entitlement available to that class. The surviving spouse is a statutory heir but their entitlement depends on what other class of statutory heir exists. If there are surviving children of the deceased, the spouse and children take the estate between them. Therefore, if there are three children, then the estate is divided in to four equal shares.

(per samuiforsale.com)

Clearly I'm not a lawyer but common sense tells me that the information above cannot be accurate. According to that list, uncle's and aunt's entitlement to inherit (no. 6) take priority over the surviving spouse's entitlement (no. 7). It suggests that if I die intestate my wife's brother or sister or my brother or sister has more entitlement to my estate than she does.

That cannot be correct..

[WilliamCave]

I am going to follow this post.

Excellent topic many would be interested in

[Maestro]

It is all there in Book 6 of the Civil and Commercial Code

Civil and Commercial code Book 6 - Isaan Lawyers.pdf

The surviving heir is not in class 7, ie not subordinate to the six classes listed in Section 1629. See Section 1635 regarding the spouse's inheritance rights in the absence of a will:

Section 1635. The surviving spouse is entitled to the inheritance of the deceased in the class and according to the division as hereunder provided:

(1) if there is an heir according to Section 1629 (1) surviving or having representatives as the case may be, such surviving spouse is entitled to the same share as an heir in the degree of children;

(2) if there is an heir according to Section 1629 (3) and such heir is surviving or has representatives, or if in default of an heir according to Section 1629 (1), there is an heir according to Section 1629 (2) as the case may be, such surviving spouse is entitled to one half of the inheritance;

(3) if there is an heir according to Section 1629 (4) or (6) and such heir is surviving or has representatives, or if there is an heir according to Section 1629 (5) as the case may be, such surviving spouse is entitled to two-thirds of the inheritance;

(4) if there is no heir as specified in Section 1629, such surviving spouse is entitled to the whole inheritance.

[Maestro]

I believe Section 1635 of the Civil and Commercial Code gives an idea why it is useful to make a testament, not only for the foreigner but also for the Thai spouse.

[IMA_FARANG]

You need to be aware that if you have an annual extension based on marriage (a marriage visa it is often mistakenly called) that extension ends with the death of your wife and you will have to leave the country to get a new visa.

You MAY be able to get an extension to stay in Thailand based on visiting your child but that can NOT be certain. You can request it, but there's no certainty it will be granted.

So, even though you will obviously be under great stress because of the death of your wife, you need to be prepared for that contingency and be prepared to do a visa run for at least a tourist visa as a stop-gap visa until you can make other arrangements.

Like it or not, there is little sympathy in the legal immigration requirements.

I assume that's why they say that justice is blind.

P.S. I believe this also applies in the event you are legally divorced from your wife.

Edited January 29, 2014 by IMA_FARANG

[Mario2008]

In case of the death of a spouse immigration allows time to make other arrangements and does not expect you to cancel your permisison to stay and leave right away.

While the rules do not provide for this situation, immigration is certanly not without a hearth.

[bifftastic]

What is a usefruct?

Here's a link to the definition in Thai

http://th.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%B8%AA%E0%B8%B4%E0%B8%97%E0%B8%98%E0%B8%B4%E0%B9%80%E0%B8%81%E0%B9%87%E0%B8%9A%E0%B8%81%E0%B8%B4%E0%B8%99

[rayongchelsea]

In case of the death of a spouse immigration allows time to make other arrangements and does not expect you to cancel your permisison to stay and leave right away.

While the rules do not provide for this situation, immigration is certanly not without a hearth.

Very true. In my case they gave me a 3 month extension based on my daughter. To get out of the country get the appropriate visa sorted etc..

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[bbbbooboo]

Respectfully Mario how can we be treated equally as a Thai if we are treated as a farang. It does not make sense

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[AlbionThailand]

I recently sought legal advice and the lawyer advised that if my Thai wife dies without a will, all of our land assets would get split equally between my son (a minor) and myself and that is because there are no complications by any other parties being able to make a claim as my wife has no living relatives. If she had any relatives, then they MAY also have a claim on her assets. The second problem being that as a foreigner, I would have 1 year from probate to sell the 50% of the land assets left to me.

The simple solution was that the lawyer drew up a quick and dirty will; listing all land assets and stating that she leaves these entirely to my son and that, until he reaches the age of 20, she nominates me as his guardian over his assets.

The lawyer gave me a 100% assurance that now that her intentions are reduced into writing, I have nothing to worry about as her wishes would prevail against any claims and would be held up in a court of law.

Visa is not an issue as I have a retirement visa that is not based on marriage.

Hope this helps.....................

[osten]

I recently sought legal advice and the lawyer advised that if my Thai wife dies without a will, all of our land assets would get split equally between my son (a minor) and myself and that is because there are no complications by any other parties being able to make a claim as my wife has no living relatives. If she had any relatives, then they MAY also have a claim on her assets. The second problem being that as a foreigner, I would have 1 year from probate to sell the 50% of the land assets left to me.

The simple solution was that the lawyer drew up a quick and dirty will; listing all land assets and stating that she leaves these entirely to my son and that, until he reaches the age of 20, she nominates me as his guardian over his assets.

The lawyer gave me a 100% assurance that now that her intentions are reduced into writing, I have nothing to worry about as her wishes would prevail against any claims and would be held up in a court of law.

Visa is not an issue as I have a retirement visa that is not based on marriage.

Hope this helps.....................

Thanks for sharing this info.

Straight to the point and inspires me to do the same with a "quick and dirty" will.

[4evermaat]

According to my friend who is a Lawyer and does consulting law work in Thai, a surviving foreigner spouse can have up to 1 Rai. I heard about the 1 rai rule somewhere else also, but do not have a source.

Visa situation would be kind of sticky though. If you have other thai family such as children, you could possibly get extension or a new visa for that reason.

[alco]

What would happen in my case where my Thai wife and I do not have any children? We already acquired 2 houses via bank loans and land title is on my wife's name.

[Langsuan Man]

What would happen in my case where my Thai wife and I do not have any children? We already acquired 2 houses via bank loans and land title is on my wife's name.

IMHO, this is the one situation where a usefruct would at least protect you from becoming homeless and not limit you to the 1 year must sell requirement

It has been reported here that a usefruct between husband and wife (entered into after marriage ) can be superseded by Thai Civil code governing community property but a usefruct backed up by a will should satisfy the legal requirement and at least give you lifetime control of the property and keep her relatives at bay until you die

[blackcab]

What would happen in my case where my Thai wife and I do not have any children? We already acquired 2 houses via bank loans and land title is on my wife's name.

IMHO, this is the one situation where a usefruct would at least protect you from becoming homeless and not limit you to the 1 year must sell requirement

It has been reported here that a usefruct between husband and wife (entered into after marriage ) can be superseded by Thai Civil code governing community property but a usefruct backed up by a will should satisfy the legal requirement and at least give you lifetime control of the property and keep her relatives at bay until you die

Can you register a usufruct if there is an outstanding bank loan (mortgage)?