Living In Thailand

[Neeranam]

QUOTE(meadish_sweetball @ 2006-06-02 11:15:40) *

Personally, I can read contemporary novels, and understand a lot more of them than I do of the newspapers. News-speak Thai is highly stylized, full of abbreviations, and plenty of slang. Two months' worth of full time studies devoted to reading newspapers when already proficient at reading basic Thai did improve my skills a bit, but the sad truth is that if you give me a random front page from a Thai newspaper today, I would only be able to get about 40-50% of it without consulting both a dictionary and a Thai friend.

Just as a matter of interest, and slightly off topic, but is that why so many Thais rarely, if ever read Thai newspaers? Is it because they also struggle to follow them or is it simply because they are not interested - and that most of the papers are full of "tabloid" rubbish?

I have noticed that Thais with obviously a poor or very basic education often read tha papers, so I guess it's not a lack of reading ability - or is it?

Many Thais often read newspapers!

Are you suggesting Thais are illiterate?

How do you tell that aThai person has a poor or basic education?

I read the football newspapers and struggle sometimes with the Thai Rat.

Edited June 2, 2006 by Neeranam

[ColPyat]

Many Thais often read newspapers!

Are you suggesting Thais are illiterate?

How do you tell that aThai person has a poor or basic education?

I read the football newspapers and struggle sometimes with the Thai Rat.

In the villages?

Hardly ever do i see anyone read newspapers in the villages i am familiar with.

It's rather easy to tell if someone has a poor or basic education, regardless wich country that person is from.

[Mobi]

Many Thais often read newspapers!

Are you suggesting Thais are illiterate?

How do you tell that aThai person has a poor or basic education?

I read the football newspapers and struggle sometimes with the Thai Rat.

In the villages?

Hardly ever do i see anyone read newspapers in the villages i am familiar with.

It's rather easy to tell if someone has a poor or basic education, regardless wich country that person is from.

I seem to remember we've had this debate before, but most of the villages I'm familiar with don't have newspaers, period.

When I said 'many Thais read newspapers', I was commenting on Meadish's post in which he explained how difficult some of this newspaper stuff is to read.

I'm not suggesting Thais are illiterate - the literacy rate is about 96%, which is very good. I just assume that when a Thai leaves full time education when he/she is only 10 -12 years old, then they can't exactly have had a well rounded education - but many such people can sometimes be seen absorbed in the newspapers.

My ex wife, who was an extremely well educated Chinese-Thai, never read a Thai newspaper. My current wife, who left school at at a young age, reads them from cover to cover, every day.

I'm just a simple 'Thai illiterate' farang trying to understand the workings of what appears to be an incredibly complex written langage from those who know more than me

[Savage]

Really depends on what your lifestyle and age is.If you are old and /or fat, like me,with a much younger wife,you are already a ''joke'' to most Thai's and speaking Thai will more than likely make you a bigger joke in their eyes,especially if you think you are good at it.In this situation ''it'' has very little value to you except to tell them something ,which probably won't be to your advantage either,Just learn basic words so you can talk baby talk,they appreciate your ''respect'' of Thailand for attempting to learn their language and they are more comfortable around you when they are speaking to their friends.Plus you don't have to endure the insult of them changing dialects or languages when they want to say something not for your ears.

Maybe if you are working here in Bangkok,learning to speak Thai more fluently might be helpful,otherwise you will be able to communicate enough to get along with baby talk and at the same time allow the Thai his ''superiority''.

Don't kid yourself,you are never going to be a family member or make friends in the village.You will buy your relationships and when you balk at spending or loaning,you will be scorned.Set your agreements with your wife before hand ,then let her do the communicating.Don't concern yourself with what they think of you or whether you can communicate with them......Just stay the dumb shit they think you are anyway.This is not Farangland.It's Thailand and you are it!!

My friend, you are using your experience to paint the entire nation with a very broad and negative generalisation. A bit like saying that the entire British race are pikey, scumbag car thieves because you had your car stereo stolen in London.

I personally have not experienced these negative attitudes from my times in the North East. My wife's friends always pay for my food and drink and I feel 100% accepted by them and my wife's family.

They (friends) did tell me about some chap called Malcolm who came to visit (with an old school friend of their's) from Pattaya. He sat there all evening with his arms crossed in a disapproving way looking at everybody from head to toe. They didn't like him and its not hard to see why, he was looking down on them and why? They all have decent jobs and family's.

I have come across nothing but appreciation for my efforts in learning Thai and Lao. I feel sorry for people who have such negative experiences. I think maybe the people who don't appreciate their family members learning their language are trying to hide something? How on earth do marriages survive with this sort of feelings occuring?

[ColPyat]

I seem to remember we've had this debate before, but most of the villages I'm familiar with don't have newspaers, period.

When I said 'many Thais read newspapers', I was commenting on Meadish's post in which he explained how difficult some of this newspaper stuff is to read.

I'm not suggesting Thais are illiterate - the literacy rate is about 96%, which is very good. I just assume that when a Thai leaves full time education when he/she is only 10 -12 years old, then they can't exactly have had a well rounded education - but many such people can sometimes be seen absorbed in the newspapers.

My ex wife, who was an extremely well educated Chinese-Thai, never read a Thai newspaper. My current wife, who left school at at a young age, reads them from cover to cover, every day.

I'm just a simple 'Thai illiterate' farang trying to understand the workings of what appears to be an incredibly complex written langage from those who know more than me

Yeps, i can relate to that post.

My wife, also very little formal education, is reading the paper every day. Only problem for her is that many of the political articles are in a language that is very difficult for her to understand.

This discussion here actually inspired a discussion with me, the wife, and a slighly better educated family member today about the difference of comprehension of Thai language, according to class, and education.

We came to the topic of the language used in the movie Suryiothai that my wife hardly understood. The better educated person said that he understood most of it, because he remembered from his lessons in school some of the palace words used. But his at that time girlfriend needed his constant translation into colloquial Thai while watching the movie.

[Mobi]

.....We came to the topic of the language used in the movie Suryiothai that my wife hardly understood. The better educated person said that he understood most of it, because he remembered from his lessons in school some of the palace words used. But his at that time girlfriend needed his constant translation into colloquial Thai while watching the movie.

Interesting what you say about Suriothai. I was holidaying in Chiengmai with my now ex wife when it came out on general release. My wife was very keen to see it, so along we went to the local cinema, only to find there were no English sub titles. The wife said, don't worry, I'll translate. I have to say she did an absloutely brilliant job - I particularly remember how difficult it was for her to expain all the various family relationships, but she kept at it, and I really got agood appreciation and understanding of the story and what the movie was all about.

Returning to Bangkok, my wife was so bowled over by the movie, that she dragged me along to see it again - this time with sub titles. It as though I was watching a different movie - no proper explanation was made of who the charcters were, and many of the nuances/details in the story simply disappeared - "lost in translation".

Slightly off topic, but related to the above, this same wife was always complaining that the Thai subtitles on Farang movies are absolutely appalling.

[ColPyat]

that she dragged me along to see it again - this time with sub titles.

I watched Suriyothai once, for educational purposes, and i don't think that just because i didn't understand much of the language i found this movie an atrocious piece of slimeball fake history with lousy camera, boring lights, and incredibly bad acting.

Nang Nak was brilliant, even Bangrajan and Khun Paen was better. And in the eighties they have done a few movies here with great social critical content. Which it is right now the time to do again, but they don't, unfortunately.

I am always laughing when i hear the speaches of Thaksin when he talks about trying to follow the Korean film industry in their international success. For that there needs to be a serious selfreflection and research into the dark parts of Thai history to do that.

The topic matter is endless here in Thailand - the gap between the rich and poor, the secret dirt of Thai role in regional cold war politics, the collapse of village family structures...

Sorry to be off topic, but this is one of my issues, i love movies, and i am somewhat embarrassed that no movie with the power of movies such as 'City of God', or 'Salam Bombay' has ever came out of here, even though the social dramas are right there in front of our eyes.

And slimeball crap like 'Suryothai' gets pushed... <deleted> embarrassing!

[Rdrokit]

Fur coat..no knickers..

My Thai is OK and never learned to read and write, however, I am a lot more interested in the bold statement above!

or as thet say in Texas, "Big hat, no cattle".

[leisurely]

I hang my head in shame and say that I can manage taxi Thai - turn left/right/slowdown/stop etc, but can't hold a conversation. My girls on the other hand do remarkably well. I'll just have to keep them at home forever

[anuaaron]

"So, I'd say, for a foreigner to speak and understand Thai at a conversational level, you must learn to read the language."

I used to think that as well and put a lot of effort into the reading and writing. Then I met a guy who cant read or write but speaks Thai as well as locals on all levels. Sooooo I have to say reading is not required.

[Mobi]

"So, I'd say, for a foreigner to speak and understand Thai at a conversational level, you must learn to read the language."

I used to think that as well and put a lot of effort into the reading and writing. Then I met a guy who cant read or write but speaks Thai as well as locals on all levels. Sooooo I have to say reading is not required.

Yeah theres' loads of farangs who speak fluent Thai who don't read or write (and, before anyone jumps in and accuses me of bragging, I don't count myself amonst them). There's even loads of Thais who also speak fluently and don't read the language - my mother in law for starters. She manages OK

I think its great if you can read Thai - obviously so useful in so many ways.

The one aspect that I find really frustrating in being a Thai illiterate, is that I can't read the signs along the road side. I'm talking about shop signs, food shop signs etc etc. Most annoying when looking for say a Kow mun guy shop, or a car body repair shop, or whatever. Sure you can sometimes spot them, if you look hard, but not always easy if you're driving. And with my memory and sense of direction, even when I locate a particular place, I often struggle to find it again, due to the problem of reading the name.

I really should give the reading another go, but I guess I'm just too lazy.

Edited June 6, 2006 by Mobi D'Ark

[Backpack_thailand]

Yeah theres' loads of farangs who speak fluent Thai who don't read or write (and, before anyone jumps in and accuses me of bragging, I don't count myself amonst them).

That's me in a nutshell...!!!

Speak it no problem, can't read or write a word!

I have tried, I just don't have the patience!

Personally I don't think it's absolutely necessary although having tried to study it I have "Nuff Respect" for all expats that can. I have a mate who can read 100% but isn't too sure what he's reading, needs help to translate it all...!!!

To be truthful I don't really worry about not reading or writing, it would only be very rarely that I would use it. When documentation is involved I just get someone to read it back to me and you can always tell when they're not reading it correctly 100%...!!!

The only documents I ever concern myself with is company stuff which the current Mrs.Backpack deals with anyway.

[retirednavyman]

I can get by. Just! Conversation. No! But i know enough to get by. I do rely on the wife when we visit the family. I can understand more than i can speak though.

That's how i started out when i transferred to the Philippines. I started learning with my then wife and then immersed myself with Filipino friends and in about a year i was speaking Tagalog fairly fluently. Having an English-Tagalog dictionary really helped though.

[wasabi]

I am skeptical those who can't read are consistently, correctly pronouncing the tones. Particularly when they take on new vocabulary.

I do think it's possible just difficult.

[ColPyat]

I am skeptical those who can't read are consistently, correctly pronouncing the tones. Particularly when they take on new vocabulary.

I do think it's possible just difficult.

That does not mean though that people who can read and write can pronounce the tones correctly either. I know many farang who can read and write, but their pronounciation is still atrocious.

[Mobi]

I am skeptical those who can't read are consistently, correctly pronouncing the tones. Particularly when they take on new vocabulary.

I do think it's possible just difficult.

That does not mean though that people who can read and write can pronounce the tones correctly either. I know many farang who can read and write, but their pronounciation is still atrocious.

Well I fully appreciate that reading the proper Thai language, and reading English transliterations are totally different ball games, so please don't jump on me from a great height.

But I find that although I have many English/Thai/English dictionaries, with all manner of phoenitic transliterations, and signification of tones, that I a rarely use them. The only times I use them are A: to confirn the meaning of a word that I already am familiar with, B: to show a Thai a word in Thai that I do not know, or C: in my Thai/English dictionary, (containing English transliterations of Thai) to look up aThai word that I do not understand, and I have a remarkably high success rate in doing this.

I have never had any success in learning Thai words from a dictionary , phrase book or any other kind of written teaching manual. If I ever try to pronounce a new word, even using the most sophisticated of phoenic transliteration techniques, no Thai will ever understand what I am saying, (unless I show himn the word written in Thai). The only way I learn new words, is to hear them used, time and time again by Thais in converstation. It's a slow process, but the only way for me. I understand about 50% more than I can say - that's because when I hear a word I know what it means, but it takes much longer before I can recall it it to use in converstation. But when I finally have mastered a new word, I am told my pronounciation is clear. I have been told by language experts that you have to hear a new word about 100 times before you understand it and something like 500 times before you can speak it. I might have the numbers wrong, but it's something like this.

I can only imagine that foreigners will experience similar problems in trying to pronouince new words from the written Thai language, unless they are already fluent readers and speakers.

Edited June 7, 2006 by Mobi D'Ark

[anuaaron]

I don't know anyone here personally so I can't attest to your proficiency in Thai. However all of my Thai friends feel very few farangs can speak Thai beyond a preschool level and even less can pronounce the language correctly. Living in Thailand does seem essential since the tonality goes beyond just the individual words but how they sound and flow together in sentences and speech.

I'd say some examples of what I'd personally consider proficient is if you can watch Thai TV and understand what's going on you are proficient in listening to Thai. If you can read a newspaper you are proficient in reading and if you can have a phone conversation about your wife's visa with the Thai embassy in Thai then you are proficient in speaking.

I've been studying 2 years and cannot do any of the above. I also haven't had the chance to live in Thailand, I think if I could I'd quickly fill in many of the gaps in my knowledge that stops me from gaining ground at the speed I'd like.

The point of this is not to insult or question what anyone said, only that there are many who think they are good at Thai who in actuality are fooling themselves. I think it's a very desirable skill because few can do it, so many claim they can.

Excellent post. I have been learning and studying Thai for 6 years. I still struggle with a lot of the newspapers (takes me thirty minutes to understand a complicated newsstory). Do okay with the Tele unless they use slang, Thais use words with everyday menaings in many subtle ways that i just dont get. Conversation is okay but always feel that the Thai speaker adjusts his use of words when talking to me anyway to make it easier. I know my tones still stuff up on occassions. I hope that in about 6 more years I will be spot on. The difficult part is going from basic converation to initiating and having tpical discussions.

What gave me a shove was "Thai Reference Grammar". If you get to the point that you have a large vocabulary but feel you are stuck to phrases you know get this book and practice mixing up sentences and phrases. I know for sure the level I have attained has helped me in Thailand with work and general respect. I wrote an essay in Thai at my Uni once that had people loving me for weeks It took me about a month to write 1500 words I also know I have a passion for learning the language and to continue to do so, that makes a big difference.

[anuaaron]

I have been told by language experts that you have to hear a new word about 100 times before you understand it and something like 500 times before you can speak it. I might have the numbers wrong, but it's something like this.

I can only imagine that foreigners will experience similar problems in trying to pronouince new words from the written Thai language, unless they are already fluent readers and speakers.

I have been fond of the old three times method. Below is how I learn it. TF = Thai friend. Lets say the word is acaan.

TF= acaan, acaan, acaan.

Me= acaan

TF= acaan, acaan.

Me= acaan, acaan.

Tf= acaan.

Me= acaan, acaan, accan.

We then repeat this five times. I know sounds boring but it works for me.

After that he/she uses the word in three different sentences that I know all the words.

I repeat each sentence three times and he corrects only if badly wrong.

I then write the word in Thai 20 times. I then write the sentences he gave me in Thai 2 times each.

With this method I learn five to seven words each day. Takes me 30-45 minutes. I choose words from a newspaper that I dont know. I still forget some over a period but find they come back quickly with a gentle reminder. Though tones can still be stuffed up. If that is the case writing the word reminds me of the correct tone. I call 30 words a lesson and when have thirty words I do a session of revision where I do the above exercise once to confirm.

I only started doing this after learning all the basic stuff as I seemed to hit a wall going from the "I am cold" phrase to "I am cold because the weather at this time of the year is windy." The method i used above meant to create this sentence I only had to reinforce the words "weather" and "windy" to advance my basic thai.

Again I really love learning the language and guess this method requires a lot of passion.

If you were just starting perhaps do the above method twice, sentences twice, and write the word 10 times and the sentences once. I would think you could learn 20 words in an hour this way. But know that you will have to advance that to really improve later.

Get really basic childrens books and choose words from them to learn. When you have a word choose the sentences you want to learn using that word. Better than boring phrase books.

I also used a different Thai speaker over the week. Stops them getting bored but also lets you get used to different voices. I also found some would understand a word whilst another would be confused. Guess a Thai gets used to my pronounciation as well.

Anyway. Would be cool to hear how others go about it.

Edited June 7, 2006 by anuaaron

[Simbo]

After reading through this topic, I think a few English grammar lessons would'nt go amiss.

[wasabi]

Mobi D'Ark,

I stand corrected, that was a very compelling argument. It does make sense that you have to hear it to pronounce it right.

Annuaron,

I agree Thai reference grammar is great, I'm worknig my way through it right now.

I also agree about having a passion for it. Many people tell me learning Chinese is more practical but I have no interest in China so I couldn't sustain the interest to learn the language.

[ColPyat]

The only way I learn new words, is to hear them used, time and time again by Thais in converstation. It's a slow process, but the only way for me.

Same for me.

What helps me that i professionally and privately move to a large part in Thai only circles who mostly do not speak English. Nobody there will spend much time to speak particularly slow for my sake. This way i was forced by circumstances to catch up fast.

My wife does not speak enough English either to hold a conversation, and we speak only Thai at home.

I am far from perfect in Thai, but i can hold myself up in Thai conversations, can and have to play along in the very quick Thai humorous exchanges so necessary in every day encounters with friends.

[saeb]

Can you speak Thai?.

Once past immigration and customs at Don Muang do you ever have to resort to English?.

No, not high falutin' AUA Thai nor bar type Thai.

Can you get where you want to go, get yourself a room and buy food in Thai however basic?,

Can you get a bus or a train to where you want to go and arriving at your destination communicate enough Thai to get you to whatever you want to do or be wherever you want to be?.

If you can do any of the above - you can speak Thai a lot better than most foreigners in LOS.

The more you try, the more you learn.

Pip-Pip.

[Neeranam]

Can you speak Thai?.

Once past immigration and customs at Don Muang do you ever have to resort to English?.

No, not high falutin' AUA Thai nor bar type Thai.

Can you get where you want to go, get yourself a room and buy food in Thai however basic?,

Can you get a bus or a train to where you want to go and arriving at your destination communicate enough Thai to get you to whatever you want to do or be wherever you want to be?.

If you can do any of the above - you can speak Thai a lot better than most foreigners in LOS.

The more you try, the more you learn.

Pip-Pip.

I'd say there is more to speaking a language than just managing to do the above - thast's very basic stuff.

I learned what I call street Thai by hanging out all day and night with Thai who couldn't speak English. This is the only way for me. I've known many who live in the tourist areas who read a phrasebook for 10 minutes a day and then speak in English the rest of it, and say oh it's too hard!. They don't learn a thing.

Although I didn't have any classes, the guys I know who speak very well did.

I have tried to speak high falutin' AUA Thai too but it seems very unnatural and people usually laugh.

My pronunciation is terrible but they can usually understand me. I've had Thai people say a couple of friends speak better Thai than me which I disagree with. They have great pronunciation and clarity but they only know maybe a couple of hundred words.

I had an incident yesterday where a shop assistant repeated everything I said, which is very annoying. I said, "why do you repeat everything I say"? an guess what she repeated that too!

Most Thai just don't expect a farang to speak Thai and their reactions are very stange.

I was in a book shop last week inquiring about ordering a book and getting on without any problem when a big assed intellectual came up saying can I help? I said," well do you work here?" to which she replied "no, but I lived in the states for 10 years. I wanted to say well I've lived here for more than 10 years so go to <deleted>. Do you think a Thai in the UK would appreciate it if you went up to him in a busy shop asking if you could help them? I find it almost insulting.

Learning to read is very benefitial. Last night I watched a movie(da Vinci) and part of it was in a language I couldn't understand. There were, however, Thai subtitles which I read. I never thought I'd be able to read subtitles as they flash on and off so quickly, but practise works.

Edited June 8, 2006 by Neeranam