Spanish Schengen Visa - New Rule?

[CiaranO]

This just appeared on the vfs global website for Schengen Visa Applications for Spain

7 February 2014: Spouses of EU / SCHENGEN / UK Citizens are advised to submit an approval letter of Marriage from their respective Embassies along with the Thai Marriage Certificate. Just a stamp on the Thai Marriage Certificate from the respective Embassy will not be adequate.

I am pretty sure that no embassy supplies this approval letter......

I have written to the Spanish embassy and VFS for clarification asking what this is - will post reply if i get one.

Looks like the Spanish trying to create there own rules for Schengen Visas applicants and putting an impediment in front of people from gaining the visa.

[howzat]

VFS don't reply but you will probably get a reply from the embassy

[CiaranO]

Ill post the reply if i get one. I am very interested to hear there response. I have also posed the question if they issue such letters to their citizens if requested from other embassies too.

[CiaranO]

Just got a reply from the Spanish Embassy

" According to Spanish National Law, buy which the EU Directive 2004/38 is implemented, your marriage has to be recognized by your National Law to be recognized as EU marriage.

In any case, you wife can apply for a normal tourist visa."

_{Of course they didnt answer my questions. It seems that getting a Schengen Visa has become impossible now from the Spanish.}

[Donutz]

Why would anyone go to VFS Global (rather then a direct reservation and application at the embassy, which you are entitled to by the Visa Code) unless it is a choice that suits them better? VFS rare if ever seems to reply to any questions or feedback... Bunch of money grabbing *** if you ask me which should best be avoided unless you figure an application via VFS Global suits your needs better.

As far as the Spanish embassy's announcement: I am pretty sure that it is false and they can not demand such a thing. As far as I am aware a local marriage certificate should suffice, if need be with a proper translation. Registrating your marriage in your EU country is not required to apply for the Visa fee waiver for family members of EU citizens.

I can find nothing about it in the Visa Code (it only says you need to proof family ties)...

The VisaHandbook says no such thing either as far as I am aware. As long as the authenticity of the marriage certificate is established (read: original certificate and possibly an approved translation) you should not need any additional evidence/requirements:

PART III:SPECIFIC RULES RELATING TO APPLICANTS WHO ARE FAMILY

MEMBERS OF EU CITIZENS OR SWISS CITIZENS

3.6. Supporting documents

In order to prove that the applicant has the right to be issued with an entry visa under the

Directive, he must establish that he is a beneficiary of the Directive. This is done by

presenting documents relevant for the purposes of the three questions referred to above, i.e.

proving that:

• there is an EU citizen from whom the visa applicant can derive any rights;

• the visa applicant is a family member (e.g. a marriage certificate, birth certificate,

proof of dependency, serious health grounds, durability of partnerships …) and his

identity (passport); and

• the visa applicant accompanies or joins an EU citizen (e.g. a proof that the EU

citizen already resides in the host Member State or a confirmation that the EU

citizen will travel to the host Member State).

It is an established principle of EU law in the area of free movement that visa applicants have

the right of choice of the documentary evidence by which they wish to prove that they are

covered by the Directive (i.e. of the family link, dependency …). Member States may,

however, ask for specific documents (e.g. a marriage certificate as the means of proving the

existence of marriage), but should not refuse other means of proof.

For further information in relation to the documentation, see Commission Communication

COM (2009) 313 final

3.7. Burden of proof

(...)

A Member State may require that the relevant documents are translated, notarised or legalised

where the original document is drawn up in a language that is not understood by the

authorities of the Member State concerned or if there are doubts as to the authenticity of the

document

(…)

2.1. Visa Fee
Family members of EU citizens as defined by Article 3(2) of Annex to the AFMP (see above)
and persons with whom the EU citizen has contracted a registered partnership are exempted
from paying the visa fee, according to national Swiss legislation.
2.2. Granting every facility - Processing time
In accordance with Article 1(1) of Annex I to the AFMP, Switzerland grants all facilities for
obtaining a visa to family members of EU citizens as defined by Article 3(2) of Annex to the
AFMP (see above). Based on national legislation Switzerland also grants such facilitations to
persons with whom the EU citizen has contracted a registered partnership.
The following facilitations are granted:
• visa applications from family members of EU citizens as defined by Article 3(2) of Annex
to the AFMP (see above) and persons with whom the EU citizen has contracted a
registered partnership are examined as soon as possible;
• the persons referred to above are not required to present proof of personal means of
subsistence (e.g. cash, travellers cheques, credit cards);
• the persons referred to above are not required to present an invitation or proof of
sponsorship and/or accommodation.

2.3. Types of visa issued
Third country family members may only be required to have an entry visa in accordance with
Regulation (EC) No 539/2001.

2.4. Supporting documents
In order to benefit from the facilitations provided for by that AFMP, the visa applicant must
prove that he is a family member of an EU citizen (e.g. a marriage certificate, birth
certificate, proof of dependency, …).

2.5. Burden of proof
The burden of proof applicable in the framework of the visa application under the AFMP is
twofold:
Firstly, it is up to the visa applicant to prove that he is a beneficiary of the AFMP. He must be
able to provide documentary evidence foreseen above as he must be able to present evidence
to support his claim.
If he fails to provide such evidence, the consulate can conclude that the applicant is not
entitled to the specific treatment under the AFMP. (...)

The consulates may require that the relevant documents are translated, notarised or legalized where the original document is drawn up in a language that is not understood by the
authorities of the Member State concerned or if there are doubts as to the authenticity of the
document.

Perhaps something SOLVIT can look into or for the long term the EU Commissions Home Affairs department to stop such silly demands (and while at it bringing an end to various embassies directing people to a service provider such as VFS Global or TLS Contact without notifying them about the right of a direct application (including reservation for an appointment). The Belgians, Danes, Dutch, Spanish etc. seem to be doing a good job at getting it wrong (directing them to VFS without proper information about their rights of a direct application).

Edited February 11, 2014 by Donutz

[Donutz]

I digged around some more and a immigration lawyer confirms that all you need is a copy of the passport of the EU citizen and the marriage certificated (legalized by the Thai authorities -the Thai ministery of foreign affairs can do this-), if need be it can be be translated by an approved translator in a language that the embassy accepts (Spanish should be okay, English should be just fine too?). And ofcourse a properly filled in Schengen Visa Application form (mind the * which do not need to be filled in for those applying as a family member of a EU citizen exercising their rights of free movement).

Registrating your marriage certificate in your EU home country is not required for the visa application, nor do you need any stamps from your own embassy.

So the claims made in the newsupdate are in conflict with Regulation (EC) No 810/2009 (Visa Code)

Edit: If you want written confirmation, contact the EU for advice:

https://ec.europa.eu/citizensrights/css/unprotected/public/webform.signpost?newLocale=en

Edited February 11, 2014 by Donutz

[Jay Sata]

As a regular traveller between Gibraltar and La Linea I've experienced the games the Spanish play.

As I've said before you don't want to waste time with a big wadge of documents spending hours trying to prove you are right.

(Unless you are Victor Meldrew)

Better just get the Schengen visa through the normal channels even though you may feel you don't need it.

As a property owner in France I can assure you they will wear you out when it comes to how they interpret the EU rules.

Law written in one language can have a different meaning in another.

[CiaranO]

I digged around some more and a immigration lawyer confirms that all you need is a copy of the passport of the EU citizen and the marriage certificated (legalized by the Thai authorities -the Thai ministery of foreign affairs can do this-), if need be it can be be translated by an approved translator in a language that the embassy accepts (Spanish should be okay, English should be just fine too?). And ofcourse a properly filled in Schengen Visa Application form (mind the * which do not need to be filled in for those applying as a family member of a EU citizen exercising their rights of free movement).

Registrating your marriage certificate in your EU home country is not required for the visa application, nor do you need any stamps from your own embassy.

So the claims made in the newsupdate are in conflict with Regulation (EC) No 810/2009 (Visa Code)

Edit: If you want written confirmation, contact the EU for advice:

https://ec.europa.eu/citizensrights/css/unprotected/public/webform.signpost?newLocale=en

Hi Donutz,

Thanks for your replies.

I indeed have my marriage certificate translated into English and has been legalized by the Thai MFA. I went to the effort and even had it stamped - notarized by my consulate just be sure.

I originally did not want to go through the VFS and as per their website you can make a booking with them or make your application directly at the Spanish Embassy. I sent an email to the Spanish Embassy requesting an appointment and they replied that i have to do it at the VFS. I guess they dont want to deal with anyone in person -

[theoldgit]

I originally did not want to go through the VFS and as per their website you can make a booking with them or make your application directly at the Spanish Embassy. I sent an email to the Spanish Embassy requesting an appointment and they replied that i have to do it at the VFS. I guess they dont want to deal with anyone in person -

In which case the Spanish Consulate are in clear violation of the Schengen Agreement, the Schengen Handbook is very clear that whilst Consulates are allowed to contract out the collection of visa applications they may only do so if there is a free choice.

4.3. The service fee

Legal basis: Visa Code, Article 17

As a fundamental principle, a service fee may be charged to an applicant using the facilities of an external service provider only if the alternative is maintained of direct access to the consulate incurring the payment of just the visa fee (see point 4.4).

4.4. Direct access

Maintaining the possibility for visa applicants to lodge their applications directly at the consulate instead of via an external service provider implies that there should be a genuine choice between these two possibilities.

EN 22 EN

Even if direct access does not have to be organised under identical or similar conditions to those for access to the service provider, the conditions should not make direct access impossible in practice. Even if it is acceptable to have a different waiting time for obtaining an appointment in the case of direct access, the waiting time should not be so long that it would render direct access impossible in practice.

The different options available for lodging a visa application should be presented plainly to the public, including clear information both on the choice and the cost of the additional services of the external service provider (see Part I, point 4.1).

A number of Consulates in Bangkok play rough shot to the requirements of the Schengen Agreement, you may wish to remind the Spanish Consulate of their obligations - then again you may not.

[Donutz]

@Jay Sata: They may try to wear you out or brush you away, it might be faster to give in to unlawful demands but if it is always the right thing to do so? Perhaps complaining during an process (visa application) might not be worth it for an individual (reasons: delays, aggravated staff etc.) but complaining afterwards –with evidence- is also an option. At least you may bring about changes for those who make an application after you, later applications by you or trying to get the too much paid fees etc. back. Or simply because you wish to stick to the principle that people have to respect and execute regulations as set by law, agreements, treaties etc.

The Spanish embassy certainly can’t interpreted the Visa Code as it sees fit.

@CiaronO: You’re welcome. Then you literally have more then you need for an application so their should be no valid reason to decline a Family Visa application (visa fee waiver, minimum of documents, fast service).

You may wish to keep that e-mail from the embassy which is in clear violation of Article 17 of de Schengen Visa Code and send a formal objection/complaint to the embassy. Or possible better/also forward these BS replies from the Spanish embassy to other authorities such as Solvit (see earlier link I supplied) , the Spanish ministry of Foreign Affairs (may be unaware of actions by local embassies who act as if they are their own little Kingdom) or informing the European Commission Home Affairs department. Of course that is up to you but in the long run it can’t harm you, it may (should) bring about changes in embassy attitudes to properly execute the Visa Code so that future applications from you and others are done properly.

Too bad various embassies don’t inform or even misinform applicants about their rights. In Thailand at the very least the embassies of the Austrians, Belgians, Danes, Dutch and Spanish seem to do this (incorrectly directing people to VFS Global). I just recently wrote to the EC Home Affairs in the hope that they will be made aware and do something about this, no reply yet. Injustice and embassy/government staff acting like they are can dictate made up rules and bully civilians is simply wrong and needs to be stopped, the only way to do so is by contacting other (higher) authorities/figures up the chain of command (or going to court… ).

Edit: If you do use VFS' " services" you may wish to keep all evidence of these violations and try to get your money back (contact Solvit) afterwards.

@Theoldgit: Indeed, if enough people remind embassies and other authorities of violations of the Visa Code (Article 17 and others) this can be stopped. I myself was directed to VFS by my embassy a few years ago, only much later, too late, did I discover that I didn’t need to go there in the first place. Only cost 275 baht but the experience with VFS staff was rather bad (rude, short tempered, no help at all etc.). Visa Service agencies are not the problem, people may have valid reasons to use them but it should be voluntary and their shouldn’t be a dominant (monopoly) such as VFS seems to have! This should be brought to and end ASAP in my opinion.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Donutz

[CiaranO]

@Jay Sata: They may try to wear you out or brush you away, it might be faster to give in to unlawful demands but if it is always the right thing to do so? Perhaps complaining during an process (visa application) might not be worth it for an individual (reasons: delays, aggravated staff etc.) but complaining afterwards –with evidence- is also an option. At least you may bring about changes for those who make an application after you, later applications by you or trying to get the too much paid fees etc. back. Or simply because you wish to stick to the principle that people have to respect and execute regulations as set by law, agreements, treaties etc.

The Spanish embassy certainly can’t interpreted the Visa Code as it sees fit.

@CiaronO: You’re welcome. Then you literally have more then you need for an application so their should be no valid reason to decline a Family Visa application (visa fee waiver, minimum of documents, fast service).

You may wish to keep that e-mail from the embassy which is in clear violation of Article 17 of de Schengen Visa Code and send a formal objection/complaint to the embassy. Or possible better/also forward these BS replies from the Spanish embassy to other authorities such as Solvit (see earlier link I supplied) , the Spanish ministry of Foreign Affairs (may be unaware of actions by local embassies who act as if they are their own little Kingdom) or informing the European Commission Home Affairs department. Of course that is up to you but in the long run it can’t harm you, it may (should) bring about changes in embassy attitudes to properly execute the Visa Code so that future applications from you and others are done properly.

Too bad various embassies don’t inform or even misinform applicants about their rights. In Thailand at the very least the embassies of the Austrians, Belgians, Danes, Dutch and Spanish seem to do this (incorrectly directing people to VFS Global). I just recently wrote to the EC Home Affairs in the hope that they will be made aware and do something about this, no reply yet. Injustice and embassy/government staff acting like they are can dictate made up rules and bully civilians is simply wrong and needs to be stopped, the only way to do so is by contacting other (higher) authorities/figures up the chain of command (or going to court… ).

Edit: If you do use VFS' " services" you may wish to keep all evidence of these violations and try to get your money back (contact Solvit) afterwards.

@Theoldgit: Indeed, if enough people remind embassies and other authorities of violations of the Visa Code (Article 17 and others) this can be stopped. I myself was directed to VFS by my embassy a few years ago, only much later, too late, did I discover that I didn’t need to go there in the first place. Only cost 275 baht but the experience with VFS staff was rather bad (rude, short tempered, no help at all etc.). Visa Service agencies are not the problem, people may have valid reasons to use them but it should be voluntary and their shouldn’t be a dominant (monopoly) such as VFS seems to have! This should be brought to and end ASAP in my opinion.

Your comments are very much appreciated. I plan to first make sure the visa is sorted for my wife but i do plan to take this further by what ever means are necessary, I dont think its right that they can clearly disregard the law in this manner and try to in essence stop people gaining Schengen Visas which is what i believe they are doing.

[jamesthailand]

My wife just succeeded in getting a Schengen visa today. It was a total pain in the arse.

I'm a UK citizen and married my wife in the UK. The Spanish Embassy asked for a copy of the marriage certificate certified by the British Embassy: the British Embassy can't/won't do this.

I already had a marriage certificate which has been properly legalised (apostille by FCO in Milton Keynes, certified by Thai Embassy in London and then translated and certified by the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs), which is legal both in Spanish law and Thai law, but they refused to accept that.

They insisted on being able to keep one of the original copies of the marriage certificate (issued in London on the day I got married). Since we can easily order more copies online from the UK GRO (and we're travelling in a few days), we went along with that. However, it seems highly unreasonable to me. (My wife sensibly prevailed on me to give in and get the visa, rather than be right and not get the visa.)

They slyly suggested that all these problems could easily be avoided if my wife just reapplied as a tourist rather than as the spouse of an EU citizen. It seems they have an agenda to make it difficult for EU citizens to exercise their rights.

I also had trouble with VFS. They insisted on my wife providing hotel booking information, until I went along and made a scene. I think after that the VFS staff all sympathised with my wife for being married to such an obnoxious farang, and were very nice to her.

[Donutz]

Congratulations!

Quick reply (i'm in a hurry):

- you should get the original documents back afterwards. Some documents are only printed one or costly/timeconsuming to replace. Besides you need to show evidence at the border aswell if asked to do so. Thus you should get all papers back. Contact Solvit and escallate it with a complaint to thr Spanish ministry.

- same with VFS, no need for it, as the websites states and the Visa Code states you can apply without using VFS. The embassy misinformed you. Forward this misinformation to Solvit and as a complaint to the Spanish ministry of foreign affairs. Should get your money back aswell.

In short: marriage certificate should be enough and a properly filled in application form. don't fill in the * fields, stating that spouse is joining EU citizen on a (holiday) trip to Spain should be enough. They can't demand airplane tickets, hotel reservations etc.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Donutz

[CiaranO]

My wife just succeeded in getting a Schengen visa today. It was a total pain in the arse.

I'm a UK citizen and married my wife in the UK. The Spanish Embassy asked for a copy of the marriage certificate certified by the British Embassy: the British Embassy can't/won't do this.

I already had a marriage certificate which has been properly legalised (apostille by FCO in Milton Keynes, certified by Thai Embassy in London and then translated and certified by the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs), which is legal both in Spanish law and Thai law, but they refused to accept that.

They insisted on being able to keep one of the original copies of the marriage certificate (issued in London on the day I got married). Since we can easily order more copies online from the UK GRO (and we're travelling in a few days), we went along with that. However, it seems highly unreasonable to me. (My wife sensibly prevailed on me to give in and get the visa, rather than be right and not get the visa.)

They slyly suggested that all these problems could easily be avoided if my wife just reapplied as a tourist rather than as the spouse of an EU citizen. It seems they have an agenda to make it difficult for EU citizens to exercise their rights.

I also had trouble with VFS. They insisted on my wife providing hotel booking information, until I went along and made a scene. I think after that the VFS staff all sympathised with my wife for being married to such an obnoxious farang, and were very nice to her.

Thanks for your information - indeed i believe the Spanish have decided to make up their own rules etc.

I have managed to get a letter from my consulate saying that my marriage is legal and recognized under Irish Law. I explained my situation and asked very nicely so hopefully that will shut the Spanish up.

The other stuff i have as we have planned this trip well in advance - flights hotels insurance etc.....

I just dont like their attitude and the way they are treating people and the law. Their demands are unreasonable.

[Jay Sata]

Thanks for your information - indeed i believe the Spanish have decided to make up their own rules etc.

I have managed to get a letter from my consulate saying that my marriage is legal and recognized under Irish Law. I explained my situation and asked very nicely so hopefully that will shut the Spanish up.

The other stuff i have as we have planned this trip well in advance - flights hotels insurance etc.....

I just dont like their attitude and the way they are treating people and the law. Their demands are unreasonable.

I'm not sure how much time you've spent in Spain Ciaran but from what you've posted I'd say that's pretty normal.

I hope you never build a house there or you may have a nervous breakdown with rules and regulations.

France is the same.

But hey...if you can cope with Thailand just remember Mai Pen Rai

[CiaranO]

Thanks for your information - indeed i believe the Spanish have decided to make up their own rules etc.

I have managed to get a letter from my consulate saying that my marriage is legal and recognized under Irish Law. I explained my situation and asked very nicely so hopefully that will shut the Spanish up.

The other stuff i have as we have planned this trip well in advance - flights hotels insurance etc.....

I just dont like their attitude and the way they are treating people and the law. Their demands are unreasonable.

I'm not sure how much time you've spent in Spain Ciaran but from what you've posted I'd say that's pretty normal.

I hope you never build a house there or you may have a nervous breakdown with rules and regulations.

France is the same.

But hey...if you can cope with Thailand just remember Mai Pen Rai

I have no problem with rules and regulations - i do have a problem with made up rules and regulations that openly defy EU Law.

[merijn]

I have the kind of problem with the German Consul who is accepting and forwarding the visa applications to Bangkok.

They insist that i should have the same paperwork as for a normal tourist visa.

I'm still busy with convincing them about the directive and my rights.

[CiaranO]

Well we are off to BKK Wednesday to lodge the application - will report back later.

[Philip John]

Hi Ciaran,

The very best of luck to you on Wednesday. My wife and I are in exactly the same boat and we plan to apply for the visa on Monday 24th February. I hope you report back with some good news.

We have already booked our trip to Spain and paid for the flights and hotels, in fact this will be my wife's fifth visit (fingers crossed)

Of course, in the past, getting a Schengen visa from the Spanish Embassy in Bangkok was a piece of cake. I don't think my wife has ever been in person. She simply sent a messenger from her company to submit the documents - and pick them up a week later.

However, times have clearly changed. It was only tonight that I decided to check the Spanish embassy website to make sure we had all the correct documents and saw that message about 'the marriage approval letter' - and it's rather thrown me into panic mode.

Funny though, I've been on all the other Bangkok embassy websites that we have obtained visas from before - Dutch, French, etc - and not one of them mentions the marriage approval letter. This is clearly 'a rule' that the Spanish embassy is implementing alone it seems.

Anyway, once again, the very best of luck on Wednesday. I'll be rooting for you.

Phil

[Philip John]

My wife just succeeded in getting a Schengen visa today. It was a total pain in the arse.

They slyly suggested that all these problems could easily be avoided if my wife just reapplied as a tourist rather than as the spouse of an EU citizen. It seems they have an agenda to make it difficult for EU citizens to exercise their rights.

Well done James on getting the visa.

I mentioned your point to my wife as regards 'applying as a tourist' but she is not at all keen on going down that route - and I can't say that I blame her. I had a look at the Dutch embassy requirements and if you are travelling 'alone' and wish to apply for a Schengen visa in Bangkok, they want to see all the booked accommodation for the entire itinerary. We do have that for our Spain trip but it's all in my name.

I think we're going to have to bite the bullet and it's either the 'marriage approval letter' route or cancel the whole damn trip.

[Donutz]

You could try to contact your own country's embassy in BKK and ask them what they think about this new and ridicilious rule of the Spanish embassy, perhaps they can't even produce such a silly letter and either they can't contact the Spanish via informaral/internal channels themselves and/or you tell the embassy what your embassy has to say regarding this silly rule. I asked the European (independant) Europe Advice and they said that indeed a marriage certificate (and passports) should be eough but they also wrote that (quote) "national authorities are allowed to conduct investigations into so called marriages of convenience between Union citizens and third country nationals when they suspect that the sole purpose of the marriage is to get a residence permit. For more information regarding marriages of convenience you can visit the following website: http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/other/l33063_en.htm. Member States are allowed to set their own rules in this regard. We would therefore like to advise you to contact the relevant national authorities in case you are asked to provide this kind of proof." (end quote). So the Spanish can demand more evidence if they suspect a marriage of convenience or other fraud.... but it would be silly if they'd ask ALL applicants to turn in additional documents by default. My best bet would be to either try and hand in the application without these silly additional documents and escalate it to SOLVIT aswell as writing letters to the EU Home Affairs and Spanish Ministery of Foreign affairs (they might call the embassy back, I'd hope). In the mean time you could always try to get the silly document and sent it in later, the whole visa should be free anyway so it shouldn't cost you a single dime but just some tme.

Or you could chose to apply at an other embassy for the fee free visa but then you'r main destination would need to be that country (such as the Dutch embassy if you'd spent most time in NL), there should be no need to hand in any documentation ebsides the passports and marriage certificate though. Or you could go and apply for a regular visa but it would cost you 60 euro's and in that case you'd might just aswell apply at the Spanish embassy (the required documents should differ that much) although that option seems exactly what the Spanish seem to wish to estabish: making people apply for 60 euro visa instead of the fee waiver aswell as sending them to VFS even though the VFS site (and more importantly) the Visa Code says that you can apply directly at the embassy (thus no hidden fees of any kind at all). The more people complain and show atleast some resistance, the more chanche that they won't succeed with this rather questionable (or at points simply unlawful) an unfriendly behaviour.

Edit: I do hope that JamesThailand will also report his experience to the EU Home Affairs commission, Solvit, the Spanish ministry of foreign affairs etc. Escalation to the proper authorities higher up the various chains may put the embassy back into place regarding both the silly documents they request and the illegal forced redirection to VFS. For instance if the British embassy can provide in writing that they can't or won't print/write documents as asked by the Spanish embassy that could bolderster the case to make this whole new made up rule go away by forwarding it to Home Affairs, Solvit, the Spanish embassy and Spanish MoFA.

Edited February 17, 2014 by Donutz

[Jay Sata]

We'll it would be nice to think that this mess can be resolved with a few letters.

Sadly I think not.

Otherwise the refugees in Calais would be accommodated by the French instead of allowed to set up camps and climb the security fence every night.

As I have said before rules can change with language and in the case of the EU have a different interpretation from country to country.

The EU was supposed to allow us free travel and trade.

[CiaranO]

Hi Ciaran,

The very best of luck to you on Wednesday. My wife and I are in exactly the same boat and we plan to apply for the visa on Monday 24th February. I hope you report back with some good news.

We have already booked our trip to Spain and paid for the flights and hotels, in fact this will be my wife's fifth visit (fingers crossed)

Of course, in the past, getting a Schengen visa from the Spanish Embassy in Bangkok was a piece of cake. I don't think my wife has ever been in person. She simply sent a messenger from her company to submit the documents - and pick them up a week later.

However, times have clearly changed. It was only tonight that I decided to check the Spanish embassy website to make sure we had all the correct documents and saw that message about 'the marriage approval letter' - and it's rather thrown me into panic mode.

Funny though, I've been on all the other Bangkok embassy websites that we have obtained visas from before - Dutch, French, etc - and not one of them mentions the marriage approval letter. This is clearly 'a rule' that the Spanish embassy is implementing alone it seems.

Anyway, once again, the very best of luck on Wednesday. I'll be rooting for you.

Phil

Hi PhillipJohn,

I will indeed post everything later on Wednesday evening. We are travelling from Phuket that day.

We have booked everything too. I think we are both in the same situation.

Ciaran

[Philip John]

I've been doing a bit of research this morning, including talking to the Thai man who we call 'the visa guy' - he's basically a courier who spends all day long going to the various embassies applying and collecting visas on other people's behalf. We've used him for the past six years and he has never let us down once. He's also a mine of information as regards current 'visa application' trends, etc

Anyway, I spoke to him this morning and he was fully aware of the 'marriage letter requirement' at The Spanish Embassy / Spanish visa section but according to him, this 'rule' only applies to those who are looking to get the Schengen (or a UK visa for free) If you don't have the letter or can't get the letter, you simply apply for a normal short stay visa and pay the 60 euros or whatever the visa fee. My guy actually went on to say that this rule applies to many embassies in Bangkok but most applicants are a) unaware of their rights to a free visa and are willing to pay anyway.

In short, I may have misread the posts above and got my wires crossed because we were always willing to pay for the visa.

But however which way you look at it - the information on the Spanish Embassy visa website is extremely badly worded.

[CiaranO]

I've been doing a bit of research this morning, including talking to the Thai man who we call 'the visa guy' - he's basically a courier who spends all day long going to the various embassies applying and collecting visas on other people's behalf. We've used him for the past six years and he has never let us down once. He's also a mine of information as regards current 'visa application' trends, etc

Anyway, I spoke to him this morning and he was fully aware of the 'marriage letter requirement' at The Spanish Embassy / Spanish visa section but according to him, this 'rule' only applies to those who are looking to get the Schengen (or a UK visa for free) If you don't have the letter or can't get the letter, you simply apply for a normal short stay visa and pay the 60 euros or whatever the visa fee. My guy actually went on to say that this rule applies to many embassies in Bangkok but most applicants are a) unaware of their rights to a free visa and are willing to pay anyway.

In short, I may have misread the posts above and got my wires crossed because we were always willing to pay for the visa.

But however which way you look at it - the information on the Spanish Embassy visa website is extremely badly worded.

Believe it or not i managed to get the letter from my consulate. The letter clearly states that my marriage is legal under Irish law.

I am applying for the free visa as we are entitles to this.

[Philip John]

I am applying for the free visa as we are entitles to this.

Oh I don't blame you at all. If you've got the documentation, then go for it.

60 euros is a fair chunk of change and well worth saving.

[CiaranO]

I always like FREE lol - however they wouldnt make me aan appointment at the embassy even though they are meant too so we will have to pay the VFS Fee.

I have the following documents for application for Schengen Visa of EU National:

2 Application forms filled out and signed.

2 2 inch photos

Her passport and copy of passport along with copy of Irish Visa for our forthcoming trip

A round trip ticket to and from Spain - i have included her entire itinerary including booked hotels

Translation of Marriage Certificates - Legislation at Thai MFA - Notarized at Irish Consulate and letter from consulate stating our marriage is legal under Irish Law - copy of my passport too.

This is as per the checklist on the VFS homepage.

I have other items such as Insurance certificate - bank statements etc but we will only submit what they have asked for via their checklist on their website. I will of course bring them with me.

A tourist visa is no good as we will go to France after that for a few days.

[Donutz]

Good luck. The facts remain that the Spanish embassy in Bangkok:

- should accept a direct application thus no VFS involved at any stage. Them saying otherwise is illegal and in violating of the Schengen Visa Code (they can't make up their own rules and all the official versions of the treaty should be exactly the same).

- They neglect to mention the visa fee waiver for family members of EU citizens.

- The application isn't fast and easy.

- They ask more documents then required for a EU family member (freedom of movement) application as just the marriage certificate (properly legalized by Thai authorities and translation in a language they accept) and passports should be enough. Additional evidence can be asked if they suspect fraud, a marriage of convenience . They cannot demand to see hotel booking reservations, airplane tickets , travel money, insurance (hope you got proper insurance though!) etc. You can show such things but there should be no need to do so if the embassy does its work properly. See:

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/entry-exit/non-eu-family/index_en.htm

The official EU info page writes:

"Sample story

Marriage certificate enough to get a visa

Thomas is Irish and lives in Belarus with his wife Delia, a Belarusian national. When they wanted to visit Thomas's mother, now living in Spain, they applied for an entry visa for Delia.

She included their marriage certificate in the application, but the Spanish authorities also asked for proof of hotel accommodation in Spain and health insurance before they would issue the visa.

However, when Delia pointed out that no such additional documents were required under EU law, the Spanish authorities apologised for their mistake and immediately issued her entry visa."

So the Spanish and Germans (apparently) are -what seems- intentionally getting it all wrong by trying to direct people away (saves them time), no info on fee waivers (saves them costs) or documentation requirements (makes them able to boss around or throw up a hassle in order to annoy or discourage people exercising their rights). In short: a disgrace and well worth escalating to higher authorities (if need be to time constraints: after the whole application finished) if you ask me.

[Donutz]

I would contact Solvit (see "problems?" On the EU link above) at this point to set things in motion and then proceed with the application (if need be with paying the fees, extra documents etc.) and forward all this evidence to Solvit aswell to get both your money back and putting arrogant/bossy/incompetent embassy staff back in their place ( useful for future applications for you and others).

[CiaranO]

ok - well back from VFS in Bangkok - application lodged and no major issues.

The one thing however is an appointment is necessary. Apparently this is high season for them and very busy. For the Spanish VFS there was 25 people who had no appointment. They were going to be there a long time. They were also turning people away at the front door.

I was allowed in - I thought they said i wouldnt have been but there was no one there checking anything.

We had all the documents as above. All were fine. Only thing they asked was for her to fill out her occupation part which i told her she didnt have to do as it clearly states it on the form.

I must say i found them very friendly and polite. There was no real BS. We had the list of documents that they request on their site so all in all no worries.

We decided to have the passport mailed back to us for 200 THB as travelling back to BKK makes no sense.

All in all a good day in Bangkok.