Thai opinion: What if the "majority" balks at 'democracy'?

[webfact]

STOPPAGE TIME
What if the "majority" balks at 'democracy'?
Tulsathit Taptim
The Nation

BANGKOK: -- The question remains strictly hypothetical at the moment, of course. We have perpetually lazy voters who don't care either way and who must have contributed to the low voter turn-out of the February 2 general election. Voting was incomplete in several constituencies and no results have been made official yet. But it's still a fair question, no matter how tricky it sounds.

Thai politics has been puzzling students of democracy, and February 2 has added to the great intrigue. If "majority" is what it is all about, what now? "Majority" has guided the way since the share concealment scandal of Thaksin Shinawatra. It told the country to grit its teeth and bear it then, and reasserted its authority in the first post-coup election in 2008. In 2011, it made a final say, or so it seemed, on renewed turmoil.

There are Thais who think that numbers are not that important. Transparency, checks and balances and accountability have to complete the system, they believe. However, debate on what democracy needs aside from ballot boxes has threatened to rip the country apart, so let’s stick only with the numbers, at least for a while.

Less than half of the eligible voters cast their ballots. Among those who went out to vote, many said "No" to the ruling party. The number of "No" votes is believed to be huge. It’s big enough to all but silence the moderate government supporters and make the hardliners extremely uncomfortable. The most formidable fortress of Pheu Thai _ the support by the "majority" _ has been penetrated.

The numbers combined to unleash a one-two blow. Thaksin’s political party is thought to have received significantly fewer votes than in the previous poll. Secondly and as importantly, the party’s strong campaign for Thais to snub the anti-government movement by going to the February 2 polls fell flat, or nearly.

The main pro-Pheu Thai argument is that it has won the election, and that should be it. The Democrats opted out of the contest out of their own free will, and while that left the competition unexcited, it remained a competition all the same. In other words, there may be women more beautiful than Miss Universe, but since they did not vie for the crown, they are not entitled to proclaiming themselves as Miss Universe.

Only Miss Universe does not have to decide whether a government should continue "buying" rice from farmers above the market prices or borrow Bt2 trillion to upgrade a railway system. It’s one thing to say Pheu Thai has won the February 2 election, but it’s another to assume Thailand wants the rice scheme to go on or allow the current crop of politicians to seek a Bt2 trillion loan and spend it with less-than-usual parliamentary scrutiny.

That’s the problem. We might be able to proclaim Pheu Thai as the "winner", but can we say the election endorsed the rice scheme or attempts to borrow Bt2 billion? Did the poll results suggest the Amnesty Bill should be revived? Did they imply that Thais want to keep Parliament out of it when the government goes about signing international treaties? Have Thais said "Yes" to more "first-car" tax rebate? Democracy is all about settling this kind of contentious policy issues, isn’t it?

Some say Thaksin is a champion of democracy; others regard him as simply someone who’s hiding behind democracy. Either way, his blanket of security may not feel that secure any longer. If you are too obsessed with "numbers", the numbers can come back to bite you one day. It’s as simple as that.

You can manipulate the "No" votes by interpreting them as pro-democracy or pro-Thaksin. After all, going to the polls or boycotting them became somewhat a proxy political war before February 2. Pheu Thai was asking Thais to vote, not necessarily for it, but for the sake of the "democratic spirit". The "No" votes were in the turn-out, which might not be too bad considering the political chaos.

But be careful how you play with the "numbers". Counting the "No" votes as pro-democracy and thus pro-Thaksin can bring about an eerie deja vu. In 2001, four Constitution Court judges did not think their court should rule on Thaksin’s share concealment case. Of the remaining eleven, seven found him guilty and four acquitted him. Instead of being ruled guilty with four "abstentions", he was let off the hook thanks to the four "abstentions" being combined with the four "Not Guilty" judges to form a narrow 8-7 majority. The rest is history.

The clock is ticking. There are rules on time frames, deadlines and so on for the setting up of a new government after a general election. Things will get really complicated if the hypothetical question becomes solid. In that event, if you think the "winner" can go on and form a new administration, you may be an optimist. If you think such a new administration can rule in a business-as-usual manner, you are probably delusional. Democracy is a funny monkey, isn’t it?


-- The Nation 2014-02-12

[terryp]

there is no true democracy in thailand ...elites control the system, try being poor and just see how many rights you have, be middle class and enter a Thai court you are a ZERO

Be a non Thai and see how many rights you have ...ZERO

Democracy is a buzz word nothing else here

[pookiki]

Since when do election results translate into abolishing 'democracy'? Has the writer watching too much Bluesky?

[Huk]

I don't know ... I could certainly see a more peaceful chamber filled with NO MP's, travel costs for the NO PM would be lower, and with NO promises made they are hardly likely to be broken but I suspect claims of nepotism would be rife with all the NO political appointments. All in all it sounds almost desirable and at least as workable as the current caretaker arrangement.

I wonder how the police would fare under NO control though?

[chainarong]

This will certainly suit the PTP and some hardliners who long for the junta days, I really think that Thailand's version of democracy is formulated with the junta in mind ( I ref to Thai Academic's efforts for change during the forming of the constitution) , old habits die hard, especially when you can be corrupt and issue any directive that would be normal under a junta , ultimate power , something like some of these PTP Ministers think they have now and my old mate DSI

[tim armstrong]

Thailand is a long way from having a western style democracy, and maybe the local version does have to be different to reflect the different values and belief system that operates here. Example: some level of what farlang call corruption is deemed to be normal in almost every business transaction, whether with government or the business community. If I'm helping someone to find a good product I don't expect a commission from the company. A part of me thinks it would be great to give a policeman or an official 200 baht or even dollars to make a problem go away, but ultimately it doesn't work, and its not one of my values.

If the police and civil servants were paid reasonable salaries then maybe the level of corruption would be less. But they probably will still think it's their right to expect favours and 'tips'. While politicians in power and their supporters believe that their Opposition is not only wrong, but preferably should be wiped out, there will never be democratic process. The thinking is so black and white, and minority views are not tolerated.

[pipkins]

If the majority vote for no more democracy, that is demoratic.

100% guarantee is that the next round of Students will be marching for voting rights, so it would only be temporary insanity and the junta would be overthrown.

[binjalin]

what tripe this article is... 100s of thousands did not vote because of the thugs and millions did not vote because the Dems thought they would lose and did not want to 'lose face' so threw their toys out of the pram

restore law and order - then the usual 75% will vote

[JoeThePoster]

What if the moon were made of cheese? Would we be allowed to eat it?

[rixalex]

restore law and order - then the usual 75% will vote

Which is what the government were told before the election. Do what you have to do to bring and about law and order, be that arresting protest leaders or be that working with them, your choice, but do something to settle things down first. Don't just blithely proceed with elections knowing that half the country won't vote, and with the whole thing a very expensive shambles.

[englishoak]

"sigh" more claptrap from the Nation~al Front rag

[BSJ]

The tread opener is non-sensical in some ways.
I would like my 5 minutes back that it took to read...and re-read it.

[toybits]

Even the OP is unclear about the mean of Democracy. Great! Just Great!!!

Now define Majority.

[gemini81]

Mr Tulsatit

This is a constitutional monarchy. Get to know your own country's system, and research what democracy really means before writing articles. Then come back and report. Understand the term democrat here is marketing and used for vote buying and/or persuasion, manipulating people into thinking that is what they get.

Maybe report on the success of duping people into thinking its democratic when its not is a case study for you.

You jump around to a vast array of sub topics, and its hard to interpret your scattered thinking, and what the heck your point really is.

Edited February 12, 2014 by gemini81

[focus27]

Tulsatit cannot help letting his reactionary elitism shine through. He tries hard to construct interesting articles but they all amount to setting up straw men so that he can either knock them down or create false dilemmas (he likes those).

An honest article would ask the question in reverse: how can an opposition party have any power when they are always in opposition?

In the UK, the Liberal Party has been out of government for 80 years, only recently have they become the minority in a coalition. How could they have survived for so long without a ticket on the gravy train? Local government - an interesting analysis of Thai local government can be found at http://www.ide.go.jp/English/Publish/Download/Jrp/147.html

The majority is not always right - but in a democracy the majority is always in power. Doesn't matter what the voting system is: to see the chaos of absolute proportional representation, look at Italy; to see the unfairness of a constituency based system, look at the UK and US. Also, how many countries have a government with a majority of the whole electorate? (Communism doesn't count as the electorate is only party members and not the whole population.) Thailand has a mixed system, but rather than creating a balance it seems to have the worst elements of both systems.

The Athenians voted away their democracy after a disastrous war. In Thailand, the conflict is internal, but the questions are equally serious. However, the 'reformers' need to man up and spit out their true objectives. Perhaps Thais are willing to sacrifice democracy for stability - if so, let them vote on it.

[virtualtraveller]

It's a good point. Let's not bend the facts here. Everyone in Thailand (almost) supports democracy, but what sort of democracy is the issue of contention. Peua Thai's (or should that be Thaksin's) version is 'blank cheque authority to the winner takes all at elections'. Should they fall from grace one day, would they really propound that same ideology when their opponents win?

The last election was a fake election, without the main opposition taking part it will always be a farce producing a result of questionable legitimacy. The question remains; was the Democratic party reasonable to boycott, citing reform first because the election process and resulting govt pervert a true democratic status. Well, the numbers vindicated them. Even when everyone gets a chance to vote the reality is; THE MAJORITY opted to give this present democratic process the thumbs down. And since Peua Thai always harp on about majority, they should concede defeat and allow a reform process to get underway, and come to an agreement on future elections that will gain the respect of the majority of the people.

Fewer than 35% of the whole electorate appear to have chosen a political party, and less than 50% of the previous number of voters (2011) voted for a party. The no votes and boycotts are a very significant number.

[englishoak]

No they arn't it wasn't a contested election,not campaigned like it would usually be and blockaded in many other areas with threats and violence. Whats to vote for ? a hard time and people shouting at you or wasting time when you know your horse is the only one in the race ? You think a lot of families or older would be encouraged or turned off by that ?

You talk like it was a very normal and calm election with nothing else going on. Couldn't be further from the truth.

Ever heard of the term mitigating circumstances ?

[smutcakes]

It's a good point. Let's not bend the facts here. Everyone in Thailand (almost) supports democracy, but what sort of democracy is the issue of contention. Peua Thai's (or should that be Thaksin's) version is 'blank cheque authority to the winner takes all at elections'. Should they fall from grace one day, would they really propound that same ideology when their opponents win?

The last election was a fake election, without the main opposition taking part it will always be a farce producing a result of questionable legitimacy. The question remains; was the Democratic party reasonable to boycott, citing reform first because the election process and resulting govt pervert a true democratic status. Well, the numbers vindicated them. Even when everyone gets a chance to vote the reality is; THE MAJORITY opted to give this present democratic process the thumbs down. And since Peua Thai always harp on about majority, they should concede defeat and allow a reform process to get underway, and come to an agreement on future elections that will gain the respect of the majority of the people.

Fewer than 35% of the whole electorate appear to have chosen a political party, and less than 50% of the previous number of voters (2011) voted for a party. The no votes and boycotts are a very significant number.

What in Gods name are you talking about? The numbers vindicated them? If 20 million people do not vote, it does not automatically mean they would have voted for you if they had voted.

PTP won the election, any talk about who might of won etc is pure conjecture as they did not stand to be elected.

[BlueNoseCodger]

Suthep voted for democracy when he claimed the 'no votes' were really his votes!

Abhisit voted for democracy when he launched Constitutional Court challenges against the government for calling a state of emergency which they claim made the election less 'fair'. Although how it can be less fair to a party that isn't running, and has zero standing to even launch such a case, is beyond me!

Who would you have s dictator? Suthep? Abhisit? Who? What do you do when they change their mind as to who should be dictator?!

What happens if you can't agree on who should be dictator? Have a fight to the death? Some sort of vote? What?

What happens when dictator dies? It is family inherits dictatorship, like North Korea? Or do they pick a new one by committee like China?

Another Nation fantasy propaganda piece, but which dictator does Nation want and what happens when the Nation editor changes his mind? Does he then get thrown to dogs like in North Korea, or does he follow whoever has the most guns and hope they win and dictator battle! And what happens if the dictator Nation wants is different from the dictator BangkokPost wants is different from the dictator BlueSky wants?

What happens if the Dems/Suthep/Abhisit can't agree on the subset of people eligable to vote? What happens if Suthep wants palm farmers to have a vote but not rice farmers. What if Abhisit wants only University qualified people to have the vote but not soldiers or students?

Edited February 12, 2014 by BlueNoseCodger

[Time Traveller]

Those "lazy voters who don't care", but who also happened to be blocked from voting by protesters and in some cases threatened?

That's like saying the average North Korean doesn't care too much for democracy either since they are not out there voting either

[pipkins]

Loved Blue Nosed Codger's piece.

Nobody knows what they want to replace democracy with, they all leave that to Suthep and have some airy fairy idea that all will be well.

Everybody outside this fantasy tale knows, it can't work. Suthep and Korn fell out on day one. So it's either or with them two.

What can they do? What if Suthep does not like it?

Who next. Thats obvious. Its Sutheps Son/stepson Akanant. So it is the North Korea route. No chance of getting them out without civil war for over 30 years.

Crazy days when they can fill a paper with this guff and all around there are armed Militia supporting a coup and actively pushing the army to do so.

Lucky there is balance. Not on this forum, but there is a lot of media countering this nonsense and Pantip, twitter are really getting their message out as real media read and feed from these media more than twitter.

Many thai's are very alert to the dangers of PDRC. Not in the media, but certainly in the streets where Suthep is facing riducule by photo all day everyday on instagram, twitter and Pantip. One stage was pumping out to ONE person yesterday and we put the pics on here to demostrate what is happening.

[smutcakes]

Lovely what Suthep wants, you did not vote, so Suthep will tell you and pay for your vote.

[ggold]

Loved Blue Nosed Codger's piece.

Nobody knows what they want to replace democracy with, they all leave that to Suthep and have some airy fairy idea that all will be well.

Everybody outside this fantasy tale knows, it can't work. Suthep and Korn fell out on day one. So it's either or with them two.

What can they do? What if Suthep does not like it?

Who next. Thats obvious. Its Sutheps Son/stepson Akanant. So it is the North Korea route. No chance of getting them out without civil war for over 30 years.

Crazy days when they can fill a paper with this guff and all around there are armed Militia supporting a coup and actively pushing the army to do so.

Lucky there is balance. Not on this forum, but there is a lot of media countering this nonsense and Pantip, twitter are really getting their message out as real media read and feed from these media more than twitter.

Many thai's are very alert to the dangers of PDRC. Not in the media, but certainly in the streets where Suthep is facing riducule by photo all day everyday on instagram, twitter and Pantip. One stage was pumping out to ONE person yesterday and we put the pics on here to demostrate what is happening.

Lucky there is balance. Not on this forum, but there is a lot of media countering this nonsense and Pantip, twitter are really getting their message out as real media read and feed from these media more than twitter.

Well why don't you go to pantip where all you buddies are and leave us in peace! I liked the bit "Not on this forum" Is you mission to convert the none believers on here, We don't convert so easily, We are able to think for ourselves and see the bullshit that is PTP.

We aren't buying your bullshit, not today not tomorrow not ever. OK.

[BlueNoseCodger]

Those "lazy voters who don't care", but who also happened to be blocked from voting by protesters and in some cases threatened?

That's like saying the average North Korean doesn't care too much for democracy either since they are not out there voting either

Not quite true, North Korea has elections, one is due next month. Even the most oppressive nasty dictatorship is the world holds elections, because the people need to be passified. They have 3 or 4 fake parties, one wins, 100% turnout, the winning party with 100% of the seats is the Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland., they even need to use the word 'Democrat' in their name to pretend to be democratic and not a political front for dictatorship.

But of course there never is a chance of dictator's choice losing because they control the North Korean Election Commission, who would simply nullify the vote and disobey the law if ever people voted against the chosen candidates.

The North Korean Constitutional Court, would then rule out any opponent as illegal, and strike them off the list.

But probably they'd just shut North Korean polling stations and take away their vote altogether, since they control the vote.

Edited February 12, 2014 by BlueNoseCodger

[pipkins]

Lovely what Suthep wants, you did not vote, so Suthep will tell you and pay for your vote.

It's even better and funnier than that. What is happening now is.

The educated mass of people have attained enlightenment and realised they are too dumb to vote.

To get rid of the system that they don't understand and always lose in, they throw in their lot with Suthep.

Debates out the window and whislting to drown out dissent is the the order of the day

As Suthep does not have the money to finance this they GIVE Suthep their spare cash and their voting rights for the rest of their lives I presume.

There is no way they will get the right to vote again once PDRC have set up rules on who can and can't stand and the ELites re jig the constitutiion to further limit what any Government could do anyway.

Lot of articles hitting the press today about the standards of education here. Lot of people on the streets been backing that up recently

[pipkins]

Loved Blue Nosed Codger's piece.

Nobody knows what they want to replace democracy with, they all leave that to Suthep and have some airy fairy idea that all will be well.

Everybody outside this fantasy tale knows, it can't work. Suthep and Korn fell out on day one. So it's either or with them two.

What can they do? What if Suthep does not like it?

Who next. Thats obvious. Its Sutheps Son/stepson Akanant. So it is the North Korea route. No chance of getting them out without civil war for over 30 years.

Crazy days when they can fill a paper with this guff and all around there are armed Militia supporting a coup and actively pushing the army to do so.

Lucky there is balance. Not on this forum, but there is a lot of media countering this nonsense and Pantip, twitter are really getting their message out as real media read and feed from these media more than twitter.

Many thai's are very alert to the dangers of PDRC. Not in the media, but certainly in the streets where Suthep is facing riducule by photo all day everyday on instagram, twitter and Pantip. One stage was pumping out to ONE person yesterday and we put the pics on here to demostrate what is happening.

Lucky there is balance. Not on this forum, but there is a lot of media countering this nonsense and Pantip, twitter are really getting their message out as real media read and feed from these media more than twitter.

Well why don't you go to pantip where all you buddies are and leave us in peace! I liked the bit "Not on this forum" Is you mission to convert the none believers on here, We don't convert so easily, We are able to think for ourselves and see the bullshit that is PTP.

We aren't buying your bullshit, not today not tomorrow not ever. OK.

Thanks for liking my post and suggesting Thaivisa become a one thought forum. Anytakers for a PDRC re-style of ThaiVisa? Thought not, so you in minority again

No opposing opinions of diversity, just like you want for Thai People. Dream on with that one mate.

I do not waste my time trying to persuade people so far gone on Bluesky propaganda.

Lot of reasoned debate does go on here if we ignore the troll posts. Which is what we usually do with yours.

Edited February 12, 2014 by pipkins

[smutcakes]

Lovely what Suthep wants, you did not vote, so Suthep will tell you and pay for your vote.

It's even better and funnier than that. What is happening now is.

The educated mass of people have attained enlightenment and realised they are too dumb to vote.

To get rid of the system that they don't understand and always lose in, they throw in their lot with Suthep.

Debates out the window and whislting to drown out dissent is the the order of the day

As Suthep does not have the money to finance this they GIVE Suthep their spare cash and their voting rights for the rest of their lives I presume.

There is no way they will get the right to vote again once PDRC have set up rules on who can and can't stand and the ELites re jig the constitutiion to further limit what any Government could do anyway.

Lot of articles hitting the press today about the standards of education here. Lot of people on the streets been backing that up recently

Whilst Suthep and family buy up 100 of million baht properties?Despite being in debt? This guy is a corruption crusader.

There's no smoke without fire apparently.

[gemini81]

Loved Blue Nosed Codger's piece.

Nobody knows what they want to replace democracy with, they all leave that to Suthep and have some airy fairy idea that all will be well.

Everybody outside this fantasy tale knows, it can't work. Suthep and Korn fell out on day one. So it's either or with them two.

What can they do? What if Suthep does not like it?

Who next. Thats obvious. Its Sutheps Son/stepson Akanant. So it is the North Korea route. No chance of getting them out without civil war for over 30 years.

Crazy days when they can fill a paper with this guff and all around there are armed Militia supporting a coup and actively pushing the army to do so.

Lucky there is balance. Not on this forum, but there is a lot of media countering this nonsense and Pantip, twitter are really getting their message out as real media read and feed from these media more than twitter.

Many thai's are very alert to the dangers of PDRC. Not in the media, but certainly in the streets where Suthep is facing riducule by photo all day everyday on instagram, twitter and Pantip. One stage was pumping out to ONE person yesterday and we put the pics on here to demostrate what is happening.

Didn't know all the bar girls were into pantip, twitter and instagram. Thanks for keeping us in the loop with the duped.

[smutcakes]

Loved Blue Nosed Codger's piece.

Nobody knows what they want to replace democracy with, they all leave that to Suthep and have some airy fairy idea that all will be well.

Everybody outside this fantasy tale knows, it can't work. Suthep and Korn fell out on day one. So it's either or with them two.

What can they do? What if Suthep does not like it?

Who next. Thats obvious. Its Sutheps Son/stepson Akanant. So it is the North Korea route. No chance of getting them out without civil war for over 30 years.

Crazy days when they can fill a paper with this guff and all around there are armed Militia supporting a coup and actively pushing the army to do so.

Lucky there is balance. Not on this forum, but there is a lot of media countering this nonsense and Pantip, twitter are really getting their message out as real media read and feed from these media more than twitter.

Many thai's are very alert to the dangers of PDRC. Not in the media, but certainly in the streets where Suthep is facing riducule by photo all day everyday on instagram, twitter and Pantip. One stage was pumping out to ONE person yesterday and we put the pics on here to demostrate what is happening.

Didn't know all the bar girls were into pantip, twitter and instagram. Thanks for keeping us in the loop with the duped.

When you come to Thailand for the first time,maybe you would be in a decent position to comment.

[visionchaser45]

The majority is not silent, which is what upsets the self-entitled very much. How dare some Isaan get a vote equal to mine, and there are so many of them. If we give them democracy, pretty soon they will be determining who runs the country (sarc).