PDRC willing to end protest if govt quits in place of interim 'reform' administration

[englishoak]

What "national reform", Mr. Suthep?

In all these months, you have NEVER detailed what those reforms would be.

How about a referendum first to ask the Thai people if they even want these unknown reforms?

A word of advice, don't use a position of ignorance as a justification to make definite statements.

Just because you don't know what the reforms the PDRC has propossed doesn't mean that they have never detailed them.

Here's a summary

Point 1: An electoral system free from vote buying

Point 2: Effective measures to end corruption

Point 3: People should have the power to remove politicians and administrative power should be decentralised by electing provincial governors

Point 4: A police reform, so that the police force would "truly belong to the people" and perform their duties under the command of the elected governor of their respective province

Point 5: A bureaucracy reform

Point 6: Solving the problems inherent in education, social affairs, public health and transport, an economic system free of monopoly. Investment in transport infrastructure as answer to the country’s needs, not to politicians’.

I was hoping those were links that further explained these reforms rather than all links to the same text.

"A bureaucaracy reform" - how detailed.

Anyway

Point 1: An electoral system free from vote buying - Democrats guilty of that too.

Point 2: Effective measures to end corruption - Democrats guilty of that too.

Point 3: People should have the power to remove politicians and administrative power should be decentralised by electing provincial governors - Needs far more explanation, otherwise it's just a soundbite.

Point 4: A police reform, so that the police force would "truly belong to the people" and perform their duties under the command of the elected governor of their respective province - Needs far, far, far more explanation, otherwise it's just a nice meaningless soundbite.

Point 5: A bureaucracy reform - Needs any explanation at all, an absolutely meaningless soundbite.

Point 6: Solving the problems inherent in education, social affairs, public health and transport, an economic system free of monopoly. Investment in transport infrastructure as answer to the country’s needs, not to politicians’. - What? So basically what any goverment including the current says they are aiming to do? besides maybe saying that investment in transport infrastructure is an answer to the country's needs.

Oh but they mean it not suiting politicians, Ok - Wasn't there some fiasco regarding the skytrain and a certain democrat politician? Pretty hilarious.

Which brings me to the next point, why haven't the democrats explained in more detail these reforms as part of a manifesto to maybe, oh I dunno, try to get democratically elected?

The only way this crowd can get into power is through undemocratic means.

They want to rule in an undemocratic fashion.

This has nothing to do with reform for the people and everything to do with getting into power by bypassing the vote of the people.

These people are anti-democracy.

Thank you HD about sums up the points which are in fact cultural and social changes and almost impossible to achieve inside the timescale of a generation let alone a few months.

Anyone can point out flaws in a culture or country but these points offer no roadmap towards solutions and never have.

[HD 205]

Good idea if Yingluck can agree with it. However, Yingluck and Thaksin will never allow to do it if they lose their power.

But it does not make much sense to keep doing the parties on the street. It is time to talk peacefully.

This is the exact same 'idea' that the PDRC began with. This is not talking peacefully, this is an attempted blackmail to take power from an elected government.

[tilac2]

What "national reform", Mr. Suthep?

In all these months, you have NEVER detailed what those reforms would be.

How about a referendum first to ask the Thai people if they even want these unknown reforms?

A word of advice, don't use a position of ignorance as a justification to make definite statements.

Just because you don't know what the reforms the PDRC has propossed doesn't mean that they have never detailed them.

Here's a summary

Point 1: An electoral system free from vote buying

Point 2: Effective measures to end corruption

Point 3: People should have the power to remove politicians and administrative power should be decentralised by electing provincial governors

Point 4: A police reform, so that the police force would "truly belong to the people" and perform their duties under the command of the elected governor of their respective province

Point 5: A bureaucracy reform

Point 6: Solving the problems inherent in education, social affairs, public health and transport, an economic system free of monopoly. Investment in transport infrastructure as answer to the country’s needs, not to politicians’.

You missed point 7: 'Motherhood and apple pie shall be recommended'.

oh, and point 8: 'Facile, pretend reforms shall be presented so we can try to deceive the stupid buffalo lao people in Isaan'.

oh yes, and while I think of it, point 9: 'No-one shall question the wise amarta'.

[HD 205]

I was hoping those were links that further explained these reforms rather than all links to the same text.

"A bureaucaracy reform" - how detailed.

Anyway

Point 1: An electoral system free from vote buying - Democrats guilty of that too.

Point 2: Effective measures to end corruption - Democrats guilty of that too.

Point 3: People should have the power to remove politicians and administrative power should be decentralised by electing provincial governors - Needs far more explanation, otherwise it's just a soundbite.

Point 4: A police reform, so that the police force would "truly belong to the people" and perform their duties under the command of the elected governor of their respective province - Needs far, far, far more explanation, otherwise it's just a nice meaningless soundbite.

Point 5: A bureaucracy reform - Needs any explanation at all, an absolutely meaningless soundbite.

Point 6: Solving the problems inherent in education, social affairs, public health and transport, an economic system free of monopoly. Investment in transport infrastructure as answer to the country’s needs, not to politicians’. - What? So basically what any goverment including the current says they are aiming to do? besides maybe saying that investment in transport infrastructure is an answer to the country's needs.

Oh but they mean it not suiting politicians, Ok - Wasn't there some fiasco regarding the skytrain and a certain democrat politician? Pretty hilarious.

Which brings me to the next point, why haven't the democrats explained in more detail these reforms as part of a manifesto to maybe, oh I dunno, try to get democratically elected?

The only way this crowd can get into power is through undemocratic means.

They want to rule in an undemocratic fashion.

This has nothing to do with reform for the people and everything to do with getting into power by bypassing the vote of the people.

These people are anti-democracy.

Thank you HD about sums up the points which are in fact cultural and social changes and almost impossible to achieve inside the timescale of a generation let alone a few months.

Anyone can point out flaws in a culture or country but these points offer no roadmap towards solutions and never have.

Absolutely, this is just problem pointing, rather than problem solving.

Just some bullet points without solutions.

If it was truly about reform, then the democrats could have really worked on these plans and came up with ideas for solutions, then put them to the people and see if they agree in a democratic vote.

Instead it's been left to their protest group to try and muscle an elected government out of power.

The yellowist of yellow wouldn't be able to disagree with a straight face that their only possible entry to power is through a military or judicial coup, and at the moment it's looking like it's going to be the latter.

[ShannonT]

Why do you feel the need to insult others with "idiotic" and "shutting up" every time?

These 6 points are not a reform plan, they are 6 generalizations that are impossible to implement in 18 months and everyone knows that.

"Effective measures to end corruption" - what measures? It's just another sentence of saying "I will end corruption", nothing more.

Corruption exists in Thailand across so many different sectors, it's impossible to "end corruption" in 18 months. There are corrupt teachers, corrupt police, corrupt taxi drivers, corrupt customs officials, corrupt army generals, corrupt politicians, corrupt bureaucrats and so much more.

Are you honestly telling me that Suthep will be able to "end corruption" in 18 months?

You cannot end corruption. It exists in the US, in the UK, in Germany, in France, etc. None of these countries claim to be corruption free, but they are less corrupt than others say Nigeria or Venezuela. Suthep will make Thailand become the first country with no corruption? If not, why is he preaching it? Because his followers will then expect it to happen and if it doesn't, that's already a promise he cannot keep. If my neighbor pays 1000 Baht to a customs official and that official takes it, then corruption already happened. You see, it's not possible to END corruption. So basically, the whole reform plan is already built on a broken promise.

Then we go over to "A bureaucracy reform" - great, another broad generalization. Does he mean certain (selective) bureaucracy, or completely and absolutely every aspect in bureaucracy from the process of issuing document stamps, over what information is needed when filing land forms to how divorce papers are handled?

Are you telling me that in 18 months, suddenly every Thai Immigration officer will stick to the actual Immigration rules? Most of them don't even know the rules and make them up as they go. But Suthep will fix it in 18 months, sure.

And don't even get me started with "solving the problems inherent in education, social affairs, public health and transport". The vast majority of this country doesn't even know the traffic laws, so how do you expect to fix the biggest transport issues this country is facing - which is proper driving. In 18 months, suddenly every Thai will know all traffic rules and most importantly, stick to them. Yeah right.

The 6 points he is talking about are basically talking about completely restructuring the Thai society, however it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to achieve that in 18 months. European and American nations who have gone through the same thing have taken dozens if not hundreds of years to get where they are.

Go show this "reform plan" to any Western politician who has an actual education and tell him you want to complete it in 18 months. He will likely roll around the floor laughing.

And if he magically can, why didn't he do it during the 32 months he was in office with Abhisit? He couldn't do it in 32 months with an absolutely majority in parliament, what makes him think that he can now do it in 18 months?

You see, you keep complaining about Puea Thai's populist policies, yet you are falling for the biggest populist policy of them all, which is Suthep's reform plan.

Actually I do not agree with what you wrote. While it's difficult to achieve it in 18 months, it's doable. For sure it's impossible to end corruption completely but if they really wanted to, they could lower it controllable levels. Your statement that it would take a complete restructuring of Thai society is hyperbole. It can be done but it won't be easy.

People like you say it's impossible not because you truly believe so but because you don't like the people trying to do it.

Forget about it and every educated forum member here will agree with me on this and my last post. The Democrat government under Abhisit and Suthep couldn't even get only a single part (the traffic problem) of the easiest of those 6 points achieved in their 32 months in office, what makes you think that they can reform the entire country in every aspect from top to bottom in only 18 months.

It's not a hyperbole, those 6 points suggest restructuring the entire Thai society and that's impossible in 18 months. It has taken European and American countries dozens if not hundreds of year to achieve and successfully implement each of those points. There is no way Thailand can do this in 18 months. Absolutely none.

The bureaucracy of the entire current constitution (which was approved under the Democrats, may I add) makes it impossible for laws to be changed sufficiently to make even a slight improvement in anything even close to 18 months. Unless you're talking about abolishing the entire constitution, but then we're opening a whole other can of worms here.

I am all for trying the impossible, believe me. But some things that have taken other countries centuries to achieve cannot be achieved by Thailand in 18 months. You need to start educating the little children and then maybe the next generation can have a shot at achieving at least part of it. But educating little children doesn't mean turning on BlueSky TV for them to listen all day, teaching them to blow a whistle, throw a shoe at a Thaksin photo or taking them to demonstrations where they teach that it's okay to overthrow a democratically elected government and that voting means nothing.

You are dreaming about the biggest populist policy fed to you by the Democrat party. It's a nice dream and it would be great if it could be achieved but it's nothing more than a dream.

[ShannonT]

I was hoping those were links that further explained these reforms rather than all links to the same text.

"A bureaucaracy reform" - how detailed.

Anyway

Point 1: An electoral system free from vote buying - Democrats guilty of that too.

Point 2: Effective measures to end corruption - Democrats guilty of that too.

Point 3: People should have the power to remove politicians and administrative power should be decentralised by electing provincial governors - Needs far more explanation, otherwise it's just a soundbite.

Point 4: A police reform, so that the police force would "truly belong to the people" and perform their duties under the command of the elected governor of their respective province - Needs far, far, far more explanation, otherwise it's just a nice meaningless soundbite.

Point 5: A bureaucracy reform - Needs any explanation at all, an absolutely meaningless soundbite.

Point 6: Solving the problems inherent in education, social affairs, public health and transport, an economic system free of monopoly. Investment in transport infrastructure as answer to the country’s needs, not to politicians’. - What? So basically what any goverment including the current says they are aiming to do? besides maybe saying that investment in transport infrastructure is an answer to the country's needs.

Oh but they mean it not suiting politicians, Ok - Wasn't there some fiasco regarding the skytrain and a certain democrat politician? Pretty hilarious.

Which brings me to the next point, why haven't the democrats explained in more detail these reforms as part of a manifesto to maybe, oh I dunno, try to get democratically elected?

The only way this crowd can get into power is through undemocratic means.

They want to rule in an undemocratic fashion.

This has nothing to do with reform for the people and everything to do with getting into power by bypassing the vote of the people.

These people are anti-democracy.

Thank you HD about sums up the points which are in fact cultural and social changes and almost impossible to achieve inside the timescale of a generation let alone a few months.

Anyone can point out flaws in a culture or country but these points offer no roadmap towards solutions and never have.

Absolutely, this is just problem pointing, rather than problem solving.

Just some bullet points without solutions.

If it was truly about reform, then the democrats could have really worked on these plans and came up with ideas for solutions, then put them to the people and see if they agree in a democratic vote.

Instead it's been left to their protest group to try and muscle an elected government out of power.

The yellowist of yellow wouldn't be able to disagree with a straight face that their only possible entry to power is through a military or judicial coup, and at the moment it's looking like it's going to be the latter.

I'm pretty sure that you (HD 205), englishoak and myself have given the reform plan over the past few posts more thought than the entire Democrat party combined in the last 3 months.

If 4 one-line and 2 two-line sentences summing up the problems is all they could come up with in 3 months, then it just shows how hopeless their goal of achieving the reformation of the entire Thai society is. And it's not a goal for them anyways, it's just a way to "wow" the gullible masses who think that a man who has achieved absolutely no reforms in his entire lifetime will somehow magically resolve all the problems in the period of 18 months.

And remember, he said that the "people's council" will stay until the reforms are completed and only then will elections be held - which basically means in the hundred years if we're lucky.

[TVGerry]

Why do you feel the need to insult others with "idiotic" and "shutting up" every time?

These 6 points are not a reform plan, they are 6 generalizations that are impossible to implement in 18 months and everyone knows that.

"Effective measures to end corruption" - what measures? It's just another sentence of saying "I will end corruption", nothing more.

Corruption exists in Thailand across so many different sectors, it's impossible to "end corruption" in 18 months. There are corrupt teachers, corrupt police, corrupt taxi drivers, corrupt customs officials, corrupt army generals, corrupt politicians, corrupt bureaucrats and so much more.

Are you honestly telling me that Suthep will be able to "end corruption" in 18 months?

You cannot end corruption. It exists in the US, in the UK, in Germany, in France, etc. None of these countries claim to be corruption free, but they are less corrupt than others say Nigeria or Venezuela. Suthep will make Thailand become the first country with no corruption? If not, why is he preaching it? Because his followers will then expect it to happen and if it doesn't, that's already a promise he cannot keep. If my neighbor pays 1000 Baht to a customs official and that official takes it, then corruption already happened. You see, it's not possible to END corruption. So basically, the whole reform plan is already built on a broken promise.

Then we go over to "A bureaucracy reform" - great, another broad generalization. Does he mean certain (selective) bureaucracy, or completely and absolutely every aspect in bureaucracy from the process of issuing document stamps, over what information is needed when filing land forms to how divorce papers are handled?

Are you telling me that in 18 months, suddenly every Thai Immigration officer will stick to the actual Immigration rules? Most of them don't even know the rules and make them up as they go. But Suthep will fix it in 18 months, sure.

And don't even get me started with "solving the problems inherent in education, social affairs, public health and transport". The vast majority of this country doesn't even know the traffic laws, so how do you expect to fix the biggest transport issues this country is facing - which is proper driving. In 18 months, suddenly every Thai will know all traffic rules and most importantly, stick to them. Yeah right.

The 6 points he is talking about are basically talking about completely restructuring the Thai society, however it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to achieve that in 18 months. European and American nations who have gone through the same thing have taken dozens if not hundreds of years to get where they are.

Go show this "reform plan" to any Western politician who has an actual education and tell him you want to complete it in 18 months. He will likely roll around the floor laughing.

And if he magically can, why didn't he do it during the 32 months he was in office with Abhisit? He couldn't do it in 32 months with an absolutely majority in parliament, what makes him think that he can now do it in 18 months?

You see, you keep complaining about Puea Thai's populist policies, yet you are falling for the biggest populist policy of them all, which is Suthep's reform plan.

Actually I do not agree with what you wrote. While it's difficult to achieve it in 18 months, it's doable. For sure it's impossible to end corruption completely but if they really wanted to, they could lower it controllable levels. Your statement that it would take a complete restructuring of Thai society is hyperbole. It can be done but it won't be easy.

People like you say it's impossible not because you truly believe so but because you don't like the people trying to do it.

Forget about it and every educated forum member here will agree with me on this and my last post. The Democrat government under Abhisit and Suthep couldn't even get only a single part (the traffic problem) of the easiest of those 6 points achieved in their 32 months in office, what makes you think that they can reform the entire country in every aspect from top to bottom in only 18 months.

It's not a hyperbole, those 6 points suggest restructuring the entire Thai society and that's impossible in 18 months. It has taken European and American countries dozens if not hundreds of year to achieve and successfully implement each of those points. There is no way Thailand can do this in 18 months. Absolutely none.

The bureaucracy of the entire current constitution (which was approved under the Democrats, may I add) makes it impossible for laws to be changed sufficiently to make even a slight improvement in anything even close to 18 months. Unless you're talking about abolishing the entire constitution, but then we're opening a whole other can of worms here.

I am all for trying the impossible, believe me. But some things that have taken other countries centuries to achieve cannot be achieved by Thailand in 18 months. You need to start educating the little children and then maybe the next generation can have a shot at achieving at least part of it. But educating little children doesn't mean turning on BlueSky TV for them to listen all day, teaching them to blow a whistle, throw a shoe at a Thaksin photo or taking them to demonstrations where they teach that it's okay to overthrow a democratically elected government and that voting means nothing.

You are dreaming about the biggest populist policy fed to you by the Democrat party. It's a nice dream and it would be great if it could be achieved but it's nothing more than a dream.

It's not a dream and it's the Shinawatra supporters and their propaganda that is trying to get it through that the next government can't do what they promise.

Besides, Let's put it this way. Things have gotten so bad under this government that even a small improvement after they are overthrown is good.

[AleG]

Those 6 points will take 20 years at least to implement, not 18 months.

And where is the referendum that shows Thais want these or those reforms?

First you make an idiotic statement that there are no reform plans in place. When someone posts them, instead of shutting up or admitting that you're wrong as usual, you insist they'll take too long to implement. Sometimes, just keeping quiet and fading away is better then getting in the last word.

Why do you feel the need to insult others with "idiotic" and "shutting up" every time?

These 6 points are not a reform plan, they are 6 generalizations that are impossible to implement in 18 months and everyone knows that.

"Effective measures to end corruption" - what measures? It's just another sentence of saying "I will end corruption", nothing more.

Corruption exists in Thailand across so many different sectors, it's impossible to "end corruption" in 18 months. There are corrupt teachers, corrupt police, corrupt taxi drivers, corrupt customs officials, corrupt army generals, corrupt politicians, corrupt bureaucrats and so much more.

Are you honestly telling me that Suthep will be able to "end corruption" in 18 months?

You cannot end corruption. It exists in the US, in the UK, in Germany, in France, etc. None of these countries claim to be corruption free, but they are less corrupt than others say Nigeria or Venezuela. Suthep will make Thailand become the first country with no corruption? If not, why is he preaching it? Because his followers will then expect it to happen and if it doesn't, that's already a promise he cannot keep. If my neighbor pays 1000 Baht to a customs official and that official takes it, then corruption already happened. You see, it's not possible to END corruption. So basically, the whole reform plan is already built on a broken promise.

Then we go over to "A bureaucracy reform" - great, another broad generalization. Does he mean certain (selective) bureaucracy, or completely and absolutely every aspect in bureaucracy from the process of issuing document stamps, over what information is needed when filing land forms to how divorce papers are handled?

Are you telling me that in 18 months, suddenly every Thai Immigration officer will stick to the actual Immigration rules? Most of them don't even know the rules and make them up as they go. But Suthep will fix it in 18 months, sure.

And don't even get me started with "solving the problems inherent in education, social affairs, public health and transport". The vast majority of this country doesn't even know the traffic laws, so how do you expect to fix the biggest transport issues this country is facing - which is proper driving. In 18 months, suddenly every Thai will know all traffic rules and most importantly, stick to them. Yeah right.

The 6 points he is talking about are basically talking about completely restructuring the Thai society, however it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to achieve that in 18 months. European and American nations who have gone through the same thing have taken dozens if not hundreds of years to get where they are.

Go show this "reform plan" to any Western politician who has an actual education and tell him you want to complete it in 18 months. He will likely roll around the floor laughing.

And if he magically can, why didn't he do it during the 32 months he was in office with Abhisit? He couldn't do it in 32 months with an absolutely majority in parliament, what makes him think that he can now do it in 18 months?

You see, you keep complaining about Puea Thai's populist policies, yet you are falling for the biggest populist policy of them all, which is Suthep's reform plan.

You have a defeatist attitude, corruption can't be completely erradicated in 18 months, so why trying? With a mindeset like that we'd still be swinging from the trees.

You claimed Suthep had never gave any details on what he wanted to achieve, I corrected your error. Besides that I'm not going to advocate in favour of Suthep because I don't care much about the man at all, in fact I think he is an idiot. What I do agree with him is two points, 1- the Shinawatra clan needs to be sent packing so that the country can start to move forward and 2- Some sort of national assembly is required to bring in reforms, politicians have proven to be unable and/or unwilling to make any major inroads in the large reforms needed, they have too many vested interest or they are too beholden to the structures that need to be revamped in the first place.

Why don't you ask what has the PTP government did to stop corruption during their term? They held an absolute mayority in parliament and what did they use it for? to shove the opposition aside and unanimously pass an "Amnesty" bill that would have cleared 25000 cases of corruption from 2004 to 2013, in particular Thaksin's cases, and disbanded anti corrupion agencies. They were actively legislating in favour of corruption, never mind working to stop it.

[HD 205]

Those 6 points will take 20 years at least to implement, not 18 months.

And where is the referendum that shows Thais want these or those reforms?

First you make an idiotic statement that there are no reform plans in place. When someone posts them, instead of shutting up or admitting that you're wrong as usual, you insist they'll take too long to implement. Sometimes, just keeping quiet and fading away is better then getting in the last word.

Why do you feel the need to insult others with "idiotic" and "shutting up" every time?

These 6 points are not a reform plan, they are 6 generalizations that are impossible to implement in 18 months and everyone knows that.

"Effective measures to end corruption" - what measures? It's just another sentence of saying "I will end corruption", nothing more.

Corruption exists in Thailand across so many different sectors, it's impossible to "end corruption" in 18 months. There are corrupt teachers, corrupt police, corrupt taxi drivers, corrupt customs officials, corrupt army generals, corrupt politicians, corrupt bureaucrats and so much more.

Are you honestly telling me that Suthep will be able to "end corruption" in 18 months?

You cannot end corruption. It exists in the US, in the UK, in Germany, in France, etc. None of these countries claim to be corruption free, but they are less corrupt than others say Nigeria or Venezuela. Suthep will make Thailand become the first country with no corruption? If not, why is he preaching it? Because his followers will then expect it to happen and if it doesn't, that's already a promise he cannot keep. If my neighbor pays 1000 Baht to a customs official and that official takes it, then corruption already happened. You see, it's not possible to END corruption. So basically, the whole reform plan is already built on a broken promise.

Then we go over to "A bureaucracy reform" - great, another broad generalization. Does he mean certain (selective) bureaucracy, or completely and absolutely every aspect in bureaucracy from the process of issuing document stamps, over what information is needed when filing land forms to how divorce papers are handled?

Are you telling me that in 18 months, suddenly every Thai Immigration officer will stick to the actual Immigration rules? Most of them don't even know the rules and make them up as they go. But Suthep will fix it in 18 months, sure.

And don't even get me started with "solving the problems inherent in education, social affairs, public health and transport". The vast majority of this country doesn't even know the traffic laws, so how do you expect to fix the biggest transport issues this country is facing - which is proper driving. In 18 months, suddenly every Thai will know all traffic rules and most importantly, stick to them. Yeah right.

The 6 points he is talking about are basically talking about completely restructuring the Thai society, however it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to achieve that in 18 months. European and American nations who have gone through the same thing have taken dozens if not hundreds of years to get where they are.

Go show this "reform plan" to any Western politician who has an actual education and tell him you want to complete it in 18 months. He will likely roll around the floor laughing.

And if he magically can, why didn't he do it during the 32 months he was in office with Abhisit? He couldn't do it in 32 months with an absolutely majority in parliament, what makes him think that he can now do it in 18 months?

You see, you keep complaining about Puea Thai's populist policies, yet you are falling for the biggest populist policy of them all, which is Suthep's reform plan.

You have a defeatist attitude, corruption can't be completely erradicated in 18 months, so why trying? With a mindeset like that we'd still be swinging from the trees.

You claimed Suthep had never gave any details on what he wanted to achieve, I corrected your error. Besides that I'm not going to advocate in favour of Suthep because I don't care much about the man at all, in fact I think he is an idiot. What I do agree with him is two points, 1- the Shinawatra clan needs to be sent packing so that the country can start to move forward and 2- Some sort of national assembly is required to bring in reforms, politicians have proven to be unable and/or unwilling to make any major inroads in the large reforms needed, they have too many vested interest or they are too beholden to the structures that need to be revamped in the first place.

Why don't you ask what has the PTP government did to stop corruption during their term? They held an absolute mayority in parliament and what did they use it for? to shove the opposition aside and unanimously pass an "Amnesty" bill that would have cleared 25000 cases of corruption from 2004 to 2013, in particular Thaksin's cases, and disbanded anti corrupion agencies. They were actively legislating in favour of corruption, never mind working to stop it.

Corruption can't be completely eradicated ever! anywhere!!

That's not defeatism, that's realism.

I do like trees though.

[AleG]

You have a defeatist attitude, corruption can't be completely erradicated in 18 months, so why trying? With a mindeset like that we'd still be swinging from the trees.

You claimed Suthep had never gave any details on what he wanted to achieve, I corrected your error. Besides that I'm not going to advocate in favour of Suthep because I don't care much about the man at all, in fact I think he is an idiot. What I do agree with him is two points, 1- the Shinawatra clan needs to be sent packing so that the country can start to move forward and 2- Some sort of national assembly is required to bring in reforms, politicians have proven to be unable and/or unwilling to make any major inroads in the large reforms needed, they have too many vested interest or they are too beholden to the structures that need to be revamped in the first place.

Why don't you ask what has the PTP government did to stop corruption during their term? They held an absolute mayority in parliament and what did they use it for? to shove the opposition aside and unanimously pass an "Amnesty" bill that would have cleared 25000 cases of corruption from 2004 to 2013, in particular Thaksin's cases, and disbanded anti corrupion agencies. They were actively legislating in favour of corruption, never mind working to stop it.

Corruption can't be completely eradicated ever! anywhere!!

That's not defeatism, that's realism.

I do like trees though.

Corruption can't be completely erradicated, true, it's not an excuse not to advocate against and seek ways to combat it.

Again, with your mentality we should just dump all this "medicine" idea because death can't be erradicated neither anyway, to give an example.

[ShannonT]

Those 6 points will take 20 years at least to implement, not 18 months.

And where is the referendum that shows Thais want these or those reforms?

First you make an idiotic statement that there are no reform plans in place. When someone posts them, instead of shutting up or admitting that you're wrong as usual, you insist they'll take too long to implement. Sometimes, just keeping quiet and fading away is better then getting in the last word.

Why do you feel the need to insult others with "idiotic" and "shutting up" every time?

These 6 points are not a reform plan, they are 6 generalizations that are impossible to implement in 18 months and everyone knows that.

"Effective measures to end corruption" - what measures? It's just another sentence of saying "I will end corruption", nothing more.

Corruption exists in Thailand across so many different sectors, it's impossible to "end corruption" in 18 months. There are corrupt teachers, corrupt police, corrupt taxi drivers, corrupt customs officials, corrupt army generals, corrupt politicians, corrupt bureaucrats and so much more.

Are you honestly telling me that Suthep will be able to "end corruption" in 18 months?

You cannot end corruption. It exists in the US, in the UK, in Germany, in France, etc. None of these countries claim to be corruption free, but they are less corrupt than others say Nigeria or Venezuela. Suthep will make Thailand become the first country with no corruption? If not, why is he preaching it? Because his followers will then expect it to happen and if it doesn't, that's already a promise he cannot keep. If my neighbor pays 1000 Baht to a customs official and that official takes it, then corruption already happened. You see, it's not possible to END corruption. So basically, the whole reform plan is already built on a broken promise.

Then we go over to "A bureaucracy reform" - great, another broad generalization. Does he mean certain (selective) bureaucracy, or completely and absolutely every aspect in bureaucracy from the process of issuing document stamps, over what information is needed when filing land forms to how divorce papers are handled?

Are you telling me that in 18 months, suddenly every Thai Immigration officer will stick to the actual Immigration rules? Most of them don't even know the rules and make them up as they go. But Suthep will fix it in 18 months, sure.

And don't even get me started with "solving the problems inherent in education, social affairs, public health and transport". The vast majority of this country doesn't even know the traffic laws, so how do you expect to fix the biggest transport issues this country is facing - which is proper driving. In 18 months, suddenly every Thai will know all traffic rules and most importantly, stick to them. Yeah right.

The 6 points he is talking about are basically talking about completely restructuring the Thai society, however it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to achieve that in 18 months. European and American nations who have gone through the same thing have taken dozens if not hundreds of years to get where they are.

Go show this "reform plan" to any Western politician who has an actual education and tell him you want to complete it in 18 months. He will likely roll around the floor laughing.

And if he magically can, why didn't he do it during the 32 months he was in office with Abhisit? He couldn't do it in 32 months with an absolutely majority in parliament, what makes him think that he can now do it in 18 months?

You see, you keep complaining about Puea Thai's populist policies, yet you are falling for the biggest populist policy of them all, which is Suthep's reform plan.

You have a defeatist attitude, corruption can't be completely erradicated in 18 months, so why trying? With a mindeset like that we'd still be swinging from the trees.

Finally, we are getting somewhere.

It is Suthep who said that he will get rid of corruption in Thailand within 18 months - NOT ME.

So basically, you agree with me that his plan is nothing but a farce. Thank you. Finally.

And yes, most of Thailand is indeed still swinging from the trees, that's why it's impossible to go from swinging from the trees to a fully functioning Democracy that Suthep proposed, all in only 18 months.

Edited February 13, 2014 by ShannonT

[ShannonT]

It's not a dream and it's the Shinawatra supporters and their propaganda that is trying to get it through that the next government can't do what they promise.

Besides, Let's put it this way. Things have gotten so bad under this government that even a small improvement after they are overthrown is good.

Wait a second here. I thought Suthep said that he would implement a 6 point reform to restructure the entire society in 18 months.

Suddenly the "small improvement" of overthrowing the government will be enough?

So it is nothing more than a power grab, after all, right? Suddenly the reforms are not really important anymore?

You can decide ...the empty promises of unachievable reforms or the lies of a power grab.

You said it, not me.

[tilac2]

Suthep can't even fill Silom at night anymore. No wonder he wants to make a deal now.

Timing is everything!

Quit whilst you are ahead. ( when was that------------remind me)

Gotta act quick now. Once the last ones are gone he can't get good conditions anymore for his surrender.

This photo must be taken around 3am, when most people were asleep in their tents.

But I went there at 8pm, there was so many people, I can hardly breath.

I agree. I could hardly breathe either, so many splendid people. It was amazing. Lots and lots and lots of quality people - well, at least 50 (and no Isaan buffaloes, thank goodness). Just lots and lots of Bangkokians (okay, maybe 20), white skin, Thai-Chinese, Prada clothes... and judges and respectable legal people everywhere.

Excellent event. We all agreed to meet in Davos next year for the skiiing.

[englishoak]

1 and 2 dosnt need electing any party can do that btw at anytime.

The day that a party leader cracks down on its own and hangs them out to dry, apologises to its supporters and announces it will have 0 toleration of wrongdoing in its own ranks then, just maybe then you can believe its serious.

Fact is there isnt one and they are just using peoples dreams and wants rather than laying out what it will take to get there, i dont even think its a sellable policy even in detail to the people, I dont believe for one moment Thai's would be prepared to do what it would need or to pay for it all in taxes nor the transparency it would require.

It goes against the very culture to be transparent. Naa will not allow admission of fault etc. its far harder than 6 lines and numbers to fix far far harder.

Edited February 13, 2014 by englishoak

[TVGerry]

It's not a dream and it's the Shinawatra supporters and their propaganda that is trying to get it through that the next government can't do what they promise.

Besides, Let's put it this way. Things have gotten so bad under this government that even a small improvement after they are overthrown is good.

Wait a second here. I thought Suthep said that he would implement a 6 point reform to restructure the entire society in 18 months.

Suddenly the "small improvement" of overthrowing the government will be enough?

So it is nothing more than a power grab, after all, right? Suddenly the reforms are not really important anymore?

You can decide ...the empty promises of unachievable reforms or the lies of a power grab.

You said it, not me.

No, don't twist my words and grasp at straws. I do believe that the reform plan will go into effect and it will succeed.

[HD 205]

You have a defeatist attitude, corruption can't be completely erradicated in 18 months, so why trying? With a mindeset like that we'd still be swinging from the trees.

You claimed Suthep had never gave any details on what he wanted to achieve, I corrected your error. Besides that I'm not going to advocate in favour of Suthep because I don't care much about the man at all, in fact I think he is an idiot. What I do agree with him is two points, 1- the Shinawatra clan needs to be sent packing so that the country can start to move forward and 2- Some sort of national assembly is required to bring in reforms, politicians have proven to be unable and/or unwilling to make any major inroads in the large reforms needed, they have too many vested interest or they are too beholden to the structures that need to be revamped in the first place.

Why don't you ask what has the PTP government did to stop corruption during their term? They held an absolute mayority in parliament and what did they use it for? to shove the opposition aside and unanimously pass an "Amnesty" bill that would have cleared 25000 cases of corruption from 2004 to 2013, in particular Thaksin's cases, and disbanded anti corrupion agencies. They were actively legislating in favour of corruption, never mind working to stop it.

Corruption can't be completely eradicated ever! anywhere!!

That's not defeatism, that's realism.

I do like trees though.

Corruption can't be completely erradicated, true, it's not an excuse not to advocate against and seek ways to combat it.

Again, with your mentality we should just dump all this "medicine" idea because death can't be erradicated neither anyway, to give an example.

What do you mean "with my mentality"? Do you mean the mentality you just pulled completely out of the air and thrust upon me by claiming that I don't support advocating and seeking ways to combat corruption.

Are you saying my statement was defeatism? because for a minute there it looked like you agreed with what I said and then just added some made up opinion that I don't hold.

[AleG]

You have a defeatist attitude, corruption can't be completely erradicated in 18 months, so why trying? With a mindeset like that we'd still be swinging from the trees.

Finally, we are getting somewhere.

It is Suthep who said that he will get rid of corruption in Thailand within 18 months - NOT ME.

So basically, you agree with me that his plan is nothing but a farce. Thank you. Finally.

And yes, most of Thailand is indeed still swinging from the trees, that's why it's impossible to go from swinging from the trees to a fully functioning Democracy that Suthep proposed, all in only 18 months.

"It is Suthep who said that he will get rid of corruption in Thailand within 18 months - NOT ME."

Hmmm, no, I'm pretty sure it's you saying that, can you cite Suthep saying that he will get rid of corruption in 18 months?

Talking about putting your words in other people's mouths: "So basically, you agree with me that his plan is nothing but a farce. Thank you. Finally."

If I'd agree on something with you I'd tell you, until then don't hi-five yourself like that, it's unbecoming.

[ShannonT]

It's not a dream and it's the Shinawatra supporters and their propaganda that is trying to get it through that the next government can't do what they promise.

Besides, Let's put it this way. Things have gotten so bad under this government that even a small improvement after they are overthrown is good.

Wait a second here. I thought Suthep said that he would implement a 6 point reform to restructure the entire society in 18 months.

Suddenly the "small improvement" of overthrowing the government will be enough?

So it is nothing more than a power grab, after all, right? Suddenly the reforms are not really important anymore?

You can decide ...the empty promises of unachievable reforms or the lies of a power grab.

You said it, not me.

No, don't twist my words and grasp at straws. I do believe that the reform plan will go into effect and it will succeed.

I'm not grasping at straws. I explained in great detail why it's nothing more than empty promises which are unachievable and you're just throwing rocks at it.

But I can see the headlines on CNN already.

Thailand reforms entire society - doing what European nations took hundreds of years, in just 18 months.

Suthep will be the most important person in world history.

[AleG]

You have a defeatist attitude, corruption can't be completely erradicated in 18 months, so why trying? With a mindeset like that we'd still be swinging from the trees.

You claimed Suthep had never gave any details on what he wanted to achieve, I corrected your error. Besides that I'm not going to advocate in favour of Suthep because I don't care much about the man at all, in fact I think he is an idiot. What I do agree with him is two points, 1- the Shinawatra clan needs to be sent packing so that the country can start to move forward and 2- Some sort of national assembly is required to bring in reforms, politicians have proven to be unable and/or unwilling to make any major inroads in the large reforms needed, they have too many vested interest or they are too beholden to the structures that need to be revamped in the first place.

Why don't you ask what has the PTP government did to stop corruption during their term? They held an absolute mayority in parliament and what did they use it for? to shove the opposition aside and unanimously pass an "Amnesty" bill that would have cleared 25000 cases of corruption from 2004 to 2013, in particular Thaksin's cases, and disbanded anti corrupion agencies. They were actively legislating in favour of corruption, never mind working to stop it.

Corruption can't be completely eradicated ever! anywhere!!

That's not defeatism, that's realism.

I do like trees though.

Corruption can't be completely erradicated, true, it's not an excuse not to advocate against and seek ways to combat it.

Again, with your mentality we should just dump all this "medicine" idea because death can't be erradicated neither anyway, to give an example.

What do you mean "with my mentality"? Do you mean the mentality you just pulled completely out of the air and thrust upon me by claiming that I don't support advocating and seeking ways to combat corruption.

Are you saying my statement was defeatism? because for a minute there it looked like you agreed with what I said and then just added some made up opinion that I don't hold.

From the context of the discussion and the content of your post it appeared to me that you were dissenting with my post, were you not? If not I apologize but that's how I read it.

[ShannonT]

You have a defeatist attitude, corruption can't be completely erradicated in 18 months, so why trying? With a mindeset like that we'd still be swinging from the trees.

Finally, we are getting somewhere.

It is Suthep who said that he will get rid of corruption in Thailand within 18 months - NOT ME.

So basically, you agree with me that his plan is nothing but a farce. Thank you. Finally.

And yes, most of Thailand is indeed still swinging from the trees, that's why it's impossible to go from swinging from the trees to a fully functioning Democracy that Suthep proposed, all in only 18 months.

"It is Suthep who said that he will get rid of corruption in Thailand within 18 months - NOT ME."

Hmmm, no, I'm pretty sure it's you saying that, can you cite Suthep saying that he will get rid of corruption in 18 months?

Talking about putting your words in other people's mouths: "So basically, you agree with me that his plan is nothing but a farce. Thank you. Finally."

If I'd agree on something with you I'd tell you, until then don't hi-five yourself like that, it's unbecoming.

Well, his reforms plan says: "Point 2: Effective measures to end corruption".

And he also says that elections will be held in 18 months, once reforms have been completed.

Remember the posters hanging at every protest site "reforms before elections".

Again, his words, not mine.

Edited February 13, 2014 by ShannonT

[TVGerry]

It's not a dream and it's the Shinawatra supporters and their propaganda that is trying to get it through that the next government can't do what they promise.

Besides, Let's put it this way. Things have gotten so bad under this government that even a small improvement after they are overthrown is good.

Wait a second here. I thought Suthep said that he would implement a 6 point reform to restructure the entire society in 18 months.

Suddenly the "small improvement" of overthrowing the government will be enough?

So it is nothing more than a power grab, after all, right? Suddenly the reforms are not really important anymore?

You can decide ...the empty promises of unachievable reforms or the lies of a power grab.

You said it, not me.

No, don't twist my words and grasp at straws. I do believe that the reform plan will go into effect and it will succeed.

I'm not grasping at straws. I explained in great detail why it's nothing more than empty promises which are unachievable and you're just throwing rocks at it.

But I can see the headlines on CNN already.

Thailand reforms entire society - doing what European nations took hundreds of years, in just 18 months.

Suthep will be the most important person in world history.

That's nice. You trying to be sarcastic I mean.

[3NUMBAS]

theyre in no position to demand anything as the rabble has diminished to a small infective crowd

[HD 205]

Corruption can't be completely erradicated, true, it's not an excuse not to advocate against and seek ways to combat it.

Again, with your mentality we should just dump all this "medicine" idea because death can't be erradicated neither anyway, to give an example.

What do you mean "with my mentality"? Do you mean the mentality you just pulled completely out of the air and thrust upon me by claiming that I don't support advocating and seeking ways to combat corruption.

Are you saying my statement was defeatism? because for a minute there it looked like you agreed with what I said and then just added some made up opinion that I don't hold.

From the context of the discussion and the content of your post it appeared to me that you were dissenting with my post, were you not? If not I apologize but that's how I read it.

No, I was simply pointing out that it's not defeatist to believe that corruption could be completely eradicated in any amount of time, it's realistic.

There was no suggestion in my post that I was saying it shouldn't be fought against and attempts shouldn't be made to minimize it.

You were the one who brought the "why try?" into the conversation, no one else.

Edited February 13, 2014 by HD 205

[rice555]

theyre in no position to demand anything as the rabble has diminished to a small infective crowd

and the people in the Gateway to Isan have been watching the BKK protest

since the start every night. The BIB are just doing their roll call before they

start their shift. If you don't know the place, ask you GF/wife.

rice555

[AleG]

"It is Suthep who said that he will get rid of corruption in Thailand within 18 months - NOT ME."

Hmmm, no, I'm pretty sure it's you saying that, can you cite Suthep saying that he will get rid of corruption in 18 months?

Talking about putting your words in other people's mouths: "So basically, you agree with me that his plan is nothing but a farce. Thank you. Finally."

If I'd agree on something with you I'd tell you, until then don't hi-five yourself like that, it's unbecoming.

Well, his reforms plan says: "Point 2: Effective measures to end corruption".

And he also says that elections will be held in 18 months, once reforms have been completed.

Remember the posters hanging at every protest site "reforms before elections".

Again, his words, not mine.

Taking measures to address an issue doesn't mean the issue is solved instantly; for example if by some miracle this "People's Council" manages to make reform laws so that corrupt politicians are severely punished that would be a measure to end corruption, it doens't mean there won't be another corrupt politician ever again.

You are simply fishing for the most unreasonable interpretations in order to discredit the premise, or do you go into paroxisms every time you hear about a government or organization taking measures to stop this or that?

[ShannonT]

"It is Suthep who said that he will get rid of corruption in Thailand within 18 months - NOT ME."

Hmmm, no, I'm pretty sure it's you saying that, can you cite Suthep saying that he will get rid of corruption in 18 months?

Talking about putting your words in other people's mouths: "So basically, you agree with me that his plan is nothing but a farce. Thank you. Finally."

If I'd agree on something with you I'd tell you, until then don't hi-five yourself like that, it's unbecoming.

Well, his reforms plan says: "Point 2: Effective measures to end corruption".

And he also says that elections will be held in 18 months, once reforms have been completed.

Remember the posters hanging at every protest site "reforms before elections".

Again, his words, not mine.

Taking measures to address an issue doesn't mean the issue is solved instantly; for example if by some miracle this "People's Council" manages to make reform laws so that corrupt politicians are severely punished that would be a measure to end corruption, it doens't mean there won't be another corrupt politician ever again.

You are simply fishing for the most unreasonable interpretations in order to discredit the premise, or do you go into paroxisms every time you hear about a government or organization taking measures to stop this or that?

In other words, he is deceiving people and nothing will change.

He has been in charge for 32 months and took absolutely no measures. What makes you think that he will do anything in 18.

Thanks for clarifying that.

[HD 205]

"It is Suthep who said that he will get rid of corruption in Thailand within 18 months - NOT ME."

Hmmm, no, I'm pretty sure it's you saying that, can you cite Suthep saying that he will get rid of corruption in 18 months?

Talking about putting your words in other people's mouths: "So basically, you agree with me that his plan is nothing but a farce. Thank you. Finally."

If I'd agree on something with you I'd tell you, until then don't hi-five yourself like that, it's unbecoming.

Well, his reforms plan says: "Point 2: Effective measures to end corruption".

And he also says that elections will be held in 18 months, once reforms have been completed.

Remember the posters hanging at every protest site "reforms before elections".

Again, his words, not mine.

Taking measures to address an issue doesn't mean the issue is solved instantly; for example if by some miracle this "People's Council" manages to make reform laws so that corrupt politicians are severely punished that would be a measure to end corruption, it doens't mean there won't be another corrupt politician ever again.

You are simply fishing for the most unreasonable interpretations in order to discredit the premise, or do you go into paroxisms every time you hear about a government or organization taking measures to stop this or that?

In other words, he is deceiving people and nothing will change.

He has been in charge for 32 months and took absolutely no measures. What makes you think that he will do anything in 18.

Thanks for clarifying that.

No the democrats weren't corrupt, just remember:

"Democrat MPs saw their personal net worth increase by 4.3 billion baht while Abhisit was Prime Minister. Democrat financier Kalaya Sophonphanit's personal wealth increased by 422 million baht, while the wealth of MPs Wilat Chanpitak and Chalermlak Kebsap increased by 303 and 302 million baht respectively. 10 out of 10 MPs whose wealth increased the most during Abhisit's premiership were all Democrat MPs"

All honest made bucks no doubt.

[smedly]

Let these drongos continue with their protests... at the rate they are fizzling out there will be 10 people left next week.

32 million people say you are wrong - do you need me to explain it

go and take a phensic - your Thaksin handouts are about to come to an end, no more money honey, and the red power that you keep telling Thai people you have around the country to inflict control and power is .............................................gone

Take it southwest about 5000 clicks to the desert - you can build sand castles and call it your kingdom alone with your great leader......who will desert you at the drop of a camel turd...thud

[ShannonT]

Let these drongos continue with their protests... at the rate they are fizzling out there will be 10 people left next week.

32 million people say you are wrong - do you need me to explain it

I would like to see that explanation, yes.

Suthep said he had 6 million people on the streets, with twice as many at home, which makes 18 million.

You seem to have arrived at an even bigger number than dear leader Suthep.

Maybe you should contact him and let him know, I'm sure he will reward you promptly with a golden whistle.

Edited February 13, 2014 by ShannonT

[aimbc]

It is a great move on Suthep. He held out long enough to gather enough evidence about the government criminal acts. The farmers suing the YS government over the non payment is enough to have the Rice Scheme scrutinized. Also with the failure of the tablet. PTP really got a lot on their hands. Suthep has quite the negotiating power now. Unfortunately YS was too stubborn to step down. She will face jail time. Unfortunately her brother won't be joining her.