What if Thailand goes to Marshall law

[3NUMBAS]

gunshots becoming the norm more than ever

[wym]

I see you have been a member since 2004 so you know for a fact that is a false statement you have made.

It was two successive governments owned by Thaksin who followed the coup. What do you gain out of a false statement like that?

Don't know how you define "governments", but here are the (acting) Prime Ministers that served between the "Council for National Security" before Yingluck.

Surayud Chulanont

Samak Sundaravej

Somchai Wongsawat

Chaovarat Chanweerakul

Abhisit Vejjajiva

I believe none of these were in fact elected - are you claiming that ANY of them were "owned" by Thaksin?

[Konini]

But weren't the first three on the list elected? I'm not being difficult or argumentative, just trying to understand the whirling delvish that is Thai politics. My (limited) understanding is that those I mentioned were products of TRT/PTP who were successful in the election of December 2008. I have no immediate recollection of Chaovarat Chanweerakul, but the day is young.

Yesterday I resolved to delve into the seemingly fascinating world of Thai politics and history, so I may need assistance with clarification from time to time. Apologies to all if I appear to ask questions that may seem totally uninformed. Please be patient, I really am trying.

[ultimate weapon]

it is my personal belief that within time, All of Thailand is going to be burning (literally). Not that I want to see civil war and violence but in many respects maybe its Thailand's turn to feel what the rest of Southeast Asia has. I was talking with my wife last night about how the rest of this region, EVERY other country has seen major bloodshed (War in Vietnam, Laotian Civil War, Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, Military Junta in Myanmar etc.) She really has very little idea about how her country's neighbors have suffered, Thailand has been very good about playing its cards to avoid any problems, i.e colonization ( a tradition that goes back to the Ayutthayan Kingdom), but I think eventually that luck will run out, coupled with the inevitable passing of you know who, this country is headed straight down a path that is going to drastically change mindsets, lives and ways of thinking. We should all be very aware that we are living in a volatile country at a volatile time with some very volatile people and to make a joke about some guy named "Marshall Law" is disrespectful to not only those who have died in Thailand but those in neighboring countries that have lost their lives, IT IS NOT A JOKE, and you will not be laughing when the violence and bloodshed and turmoil are knocking on your doorstep.

Also as a student of history and a side , Thailand's current territorial map consists of for a large part of land stolen from other nations (though by no means just a Thai attribute). The North having belonged to the Burmese and the independent Kingdom of Chiang Mai, the far south being Malay and the Northeast being Khmer and Lao......

Well if you want to call it stolen. What about lands that russia took from china? Let's see lands that indonesia took from papua new guinea?

You see lands used to belong to someone else before. It's the same everywhere.

[wym]

But weren't the first three on the list elected?

No this is in order from the coup, some just figureheads foe a few weeks then swapped out by the junta. Their re-jigging of the Constitution, anti-corruption agencies, judiciary etc are still in place.

Abhisit was their attempt to transition back to "democracy".

[aveabeeror2]

I see you have been a member since 2004 so you know for a fact that is a false statement you have made.

It was two successive governments owned by Thaksin who followed the coup. What do you gain out of a false statement like that?

Don't know how you define "governments", but here are the (acting) Prime Ministers that served between the "Council for National Security" before Yingluck.

Surayud Chulanont

Samak Sundaravej

Somchai Wongsawat

Chaovarat Chanweerakul

Abhisit Vejjajiva

I believe none of these were in fact elected - are you claiming that ANY of them were "owned" by Thaksin?

What has your comment got to do with the topic? Nothing.

[expatoz]

head for the hills or just take your chances no guarantees no democracy here

[Konini]

But weren't the first three on the list elected?

No this is in order from the coup, some just figureheads foe a few weeks then swapped out by the junta. Their re-jigging of the Constitution, anti-corruption agencies, judiciary etc are still in place.

Abhisit was their attempt to transition back to "democracy".

Now I'm really confused. I don't remember Surayud - I was trying really hard NOT to take an interest at the time as I obsess about historical or political subjects when I find them interesting to the point where discovering every last detail takes over all of my free time, sometimes for years, but even in this state of denial I was unable to miss both the incredibly misogynist cookery buff and Mr T's brother-in-law who was forced to resign following the airport debacle. My thinking there, and I stand to be corrected - as I said, I was trying not to take an interest in the shambolic (if amusing) politics here - was that it was a coup d'état without direct involvement of the army; I firmly believe that had it happened in Malaysia or Singapore the army would undoubtedly gone to the airport, rat-a-tat-a-tat and arrivals and departures back on schedule within the hour. Even international condemnation for the resulting deaths would have been muted; this group, albeit ingeniously planned to be quite harmless and jovial old folk armed only with comical hands so they weren't even disturbing the quiet by clapping, they were quite literally holding a legally elected government to ransom. I won't insult the intelligence of anyone by suggesting it was a democratically elected government, there surely won't be such a thing here for a long, long time if ever. But regardless of accusations of vote buying with 500 baht, which I believe would always have been done by both sides contesting every election here since the very first one back in the 1930's, it was a legally acquired election victory, and the victors were replaced by the last on your list, Abhisit, who was a 'yellow' rather than a 'red' which the first three were.

As said, I'm learning, and would invite anyone to correct me as I really want to know. Differing opinions are very welcome, but I think it better to keep calm heads and civilised debate, otherwise anyone else showing an interest - which can only be a good thing - would quickly lose interest if an unpleasant flame war starts.

As an aside, my good friend Pandora tells me that the dour faced tome eluded to by Smurkster is proving to be a very good read so far. Usually Pandora devours interesting books in a matter of hours, but has got bigger events consuming all free time at the moment. She is nevertheless very thankful for the pointer.

[Naam]

Coups and Marshall law is a way of life here.

It's what attracts so many people to live here.

And you thought it was the cheap girls and cheap booze

Marshall law can't be imposed. Thailand has no Marshalls, highest rank is General (to the best of my knowledge)

[wym]

Now I'm really confused. I don't remember Surayud - I was trying really hard NOT to take an interest at the time as I obsess about historical or political subjects when I find them interesting to the point where discovering every last detail takes over all of my free time, sometimes for years, but even in this state of denial I was unable to miss both the incredibly misogynist cookery buff and Mr T's brother-in-law who was forced to resign following the airport debacle. My thinking there, and I stand to be corrected - as I said, I was trying not to take an interest in the shambolic (if amusing) politics here - was that it was a coup d'état without direct involvement of the army

--------

Wut?

It was a straight military coup, from the Privy Council Surayud and Prem installed Sonthi as head of the army, and then he led the junta that overthrew Thaksin's government, and then the CNS turned around and installed Surayud PM of the new interim government, where he lasted two years.

The "cooking guy" was Samak, only lasted 7 months, the next two before Abhisit even less.

None of these were elected, Yingluck was the first elected PM since her brother.

[wym]

Coups and Marshall law is a way of life here.

It's what attracts so many people to live here.

And you thought it was the cheap girls and cheap booze

Marshall law can't be imposed. Thailand has no Marshalls, highest rank is General (to the best of my knowledge)

Wrong - most of Thailand's PMs have been Army, several of them Marshalls, the rest Generals.

[impulse]

Coups and Marshall law is a way of life here.

It's what attracts so many people to live here.

And you thought it was the cheap girls and cheap booze

Marshall law can't be imposed. Thailand has no Marshalls, highest rank is General (to the best of my knowledge)

Speaking of Marshalls,

What we need...

What we've got...

[thailiketoo]

I see you have been a member since 2004 so you know for a fact that is a false statement you have made.

It was two successive governments owned by Thaksin who followed the coup. What do you gain out of a false statement like that?

Don't know how you define "governments", but here are the (acting) Prime Ministers that served between the "Council for National Security" before Yingluck.

Surayud Chulanont

Samak Sundaravej

Somchai Wongsawat

Chaovarat Chanweerakul

Abhisit Vejjajiva

I believe none of these were in fact elected - are you claiming that ANY of them were "owned" by Thaksin?

What has your comment got to do with the topic? Nothing.

I don't know. I figure one can call a government appointed by the Army a kind of martial law? Don't you?

[wamberal]

Well,I managed to be here in '73, '76, and '91 when the military staged coups, and returned

here in '07 when the military were already in power. At no time was there any disruption of booze and nightlife.

Granted, this time may be different, but I'll wager status quo.

Things are potentially a bit stickier now, because the voting public genuinely seems to be involved, there are large numbers on either side of what seems to be an unbridgeable chasm.

In previous coups most of the population was pretty much looking on. Now a significant number seem to be actively, or potentially, involved. And I suspect that the Army knows that.

Any solution is going to leave a large number of people very, very, unhappy - unless all sides are willing to compromise.

There is a leadership vacuum now, the big question is, who or what will fill the vacuum? And will it be filled gradually, or with a big, dangerous, bang?

[uptheos]

Why are some tourist and x pats so concerned whether the bars and girls are still working, people are dying on both sides I have been through two riots there

its not fun, I sincerely hope the trouble can be resolved soon as possible and everyone can get back to a normal life once more

Because that's what they worked and saved for all year, not to see a bunch of loons killing and maiming each other.

Yeah, but whether they can buy booze and get laid or not falls to insignificance compared the the photos of the guy mourning the death of his kids.

A little sensitivity and perspective is in order.

No it doesn't, what's that have to do with someone 10,000 miles away having a planned vacation after working hard all year? There's photos of people mourning dying kids all over the world, Africa and India for example, you could never visit those places based on your statement.

I guess they might be able to cancel if they can jump through enough hoops.

I am talking about tourists, not foreigners living here.

[thailiketoo]

Things are potentially a bit stickier now, because the voting public genuinely seems to be involved, there are large numbers on either side of what seems to be an unbridgeable chasm.

In previous coups most of the population was pretty much looking on. Now a significant number seem to be actively, or potentially, involved. And I suspect that the Army knows that.

Any solution is going to leave a large number of people very, very, unhappy - unless all sides are willing to compromise.

There is a leadership vacuum now, the big question is, who or what will fill the vacuum? And will it be filled gradually, or with a big, dangerous, bang?

Students who tried to surrender were forced to lie on the ground. Several were beaten to death and then hanged. Those who attempted to escape by jumping into the Chaophraya River were shot at from naval vessels.Wimolwan, a nursing student, was shot dead while trying to swim to safety. The attack lasted for several hours. Time described the event as a "A nightmare of lynching and burning":

About a thousand demonstrators were taken prisoner and humiliated by being stripped to the waist (though females were allowed to keep their bras on), made to crawl, or kicked. Female students allegedly were raped, alive and dead, by police and Red Gaurs. Officially, there were 46 dead and 167 wounded. The unofficial estimate of over 100 dead

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thammasat_University_massacre

Edited February 28, 2014 by thailiketoo

[wamberal]

Things are potentially a bit stickier now, because the voting public genuinely seems to be involved, there are large numbers on either side of what seems to be an unbridgeable chasm.

In previous coups most of the population was pretty much looking on. Now a significant number seem to be actively, or potentially, involved. And I suspect that the Army knows that.

Any solution is going to leave a large number of people very, very, unhappy - unless all sides are willing to compromise.

There is a leadership vacuum now, the big question is, who or what will fill the vacuum? And will it be filled gradually, or with a big, dangerous, bang?

Students who tried to surrender were forced to lie on the ground. Several were beaten to death and then hanged. Those who attempted to escape by jumping into the Chaophraya River were shot at from naval vessels.Wimolwan, a nursing student, was shot dead while trying to swim to safety. The attack lasted for several hours. Time described the event as a "A nightmare of lynching and burning":

About a thousand demonstrators were taken prisoner and humiliated by being stripped to the waist (though females were allowed to keep their bras on), made to crawl, or kicked. Female students allegedly were raped, alive and dead, by police and Red Gaurs. Officially, there were 46 dead and 167 wounded. The unofficial estimate of over 100 dead

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thammasat_University_massacre

Yes, that was a terrible tragedy. But the point stands, most of the population in previous coups were not involved to the extent that they are now. I am not a historian, and stand to be corrected. My only personal experience of a coup was 1985, and that was treated as a joke by my Thai colleagues at the office, like a football match. The staff crowded around radios, those in favour of the coup at their radios, those against at others - each broadcasting the competing stations. That would not happen now, I am sure and certain.

[thailiketoo]

Students who tried to surrender were forced to lie on the ground. Several were beaten to death and then hanged. Those who attempted to escape by jumping into the Chaophraya River were shot at from naval vessels.Wimolwan, a nursing student, was shot dead while trying to swim to safety. The attack lasted for several hours. Time described the event as a "A nightmare of lynching and burning":

About a thousand demonstrators were taken prisoner and humiliated by being stripped to the waist (though females were allowed to keep their bras on), made to crawl, or kicked. Female students allegedly were raped, alive and dead, by police and Red Gaurs. Officially, there were 46 dead and 167 wounded. The unofficial estimate of over 100 dead

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thammasat_University_massacre

Yes, that was a terrible tragedy. But the point stands, most of the population in previous coups were not involved to the extent that they are now. I am not a historian, and stand to be corrected. My only personal experience of a coup was 1985, and that was treated as a joke by my Thai colleagues at the office, like a football match. The staff crowded around radios, those in favour of the coup at their radios, those against at others - each broadcasting the competing stations. That would not happen now, I am sure and certain.

Coups are not carried out by civilians. Coups are carried out by the military doing the bidding of a few people.

[wym]

I think the VAST majority of Thais are fed up with uncertainty and don't give a stuff what poser idiots are installed as long as things return to stability and predictability - "it's the economy stupid".

Letting there be a semblance of democracy might SEEM less predictable, but in fact the public jockeying for votes turns out to be more reassuring, at least people can see who the up and coming fools are.

With another series of more explicit puppets put in place by a small group of powerful people, the whole charade can get swapped out at a moment's notice, and with the big unmentionable events coming, I think there's a real fear that the struggling of titans from behind the scenes will end up stepping on a lot of little people as well as the middle class.

Since the Army quite wisely doesn't want to risk the inevitable bloodshed of a coup, it's time to get elections going again, and the opposition just needs to get its sh!t together to be able to compete in elections and win power in legitimate ways.

Trying to do so with "protests" and interfering in government business is no way to try to take power.

Bottom line is no one really cares at this point which pigs are at the trough, they just need that little semblance of "democracy" given to us by our own elites back home.