Can you reccommend a specific air purifier?

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Just got out the step ladder and checked my bedroom AC. I only had it on for about 6 weeks last year after I moved into this place. The filters are quite dark and need to be replaced. As Doi Suthep has disappeared from view, it seems it's that season again.

Well-worth 300baht or so and enough material for two changes. Got these at Home-Pro.

Even better-worth for the double package deal (enough for four filter changes) at 300 Baht. Got these from Sabai and Beyond (located at the Airport Central Plaza car park).

That's what I got at Home Pro. now if only I can find where I put the packets!!!

Read the instructions?

(Remove existing washable filters from aircon, clean them thoroughly, cut the filter material to size, then use the provided double sided tape thingies to attach the filter material to the front of the plastic aircon filters, then carefully insert making sure that it doesn't crumple when inserting it.)

[masuk]

Just got out the step ladder and checked my bedroom AC. I only had it on for about 6 weeks last year after I moved into this place. The filters are quite dark and need to be replaced. As Doi Suthep has disappeared from view, it seems it's that season again.

Well-worth 300baht or so and enough material for two changes. Got these at Home-Pro.

Even better-worth for the double package deal (enough for four filter changes) at 300 Baht. Got these from Sabai and Beyond (located at the Airport Central Plaza car park).

That's what I got at Home Pro. now if only I can find where I put the packets!!!

Read the instructions?

(Remove existing washable filters from aircon, clean them thoroughly, cut the filter material to size, then use the provided double sided tape thingies to attach the filter material to the front of the plastic aircon filters, then carefully insert making sure that it doesn't crumple when inserting it.)

I'll give you 10/10 for correctly reading the instructions.

[luther]

I don't know about other people on this thread, but there is no way that my AC filters could be re-inserted into the unit after the 3M product was taped to it.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

^ I bet they can. The filter is quite thin.

[Jose]

I don't know about other people on this thread, but there is no way that my AC filters could be re-inserted into the unit after the 3M product was taped to it.

You may have to remove the Filtrete's plastic wrapping first.

[Awk]

Your current aircon with 3M filter material over the filter will out perform any stand alone air purifier. Just the shear size of the filter to start, and the amount of air that it circulates. All for a whopping 300B!

I followed a thread last year, went to Macro, and bought several boxes of 3-M filters. I then carefully taped them over the vents of my AC unit in my bedroom. They were solid black in four days, not dark gray. I took them off, but could not wash them. I then taped the rest of roll back on the vents and they were solid black in a week. (I live out towards Mae Rim) I'm wondering how long you 3-M enthusiasts leave yours on.

My wife and I have borrowed a 1,000 dollar air purifier from out landlord in years past. It helped quite a bit in one room.

I'm hoping someone out there who has done some research and bought something they have liked can chime in, because the price between AC units and air purifiers is huge and mystifying and so is the reduction of particulate matter.

There are two popular brands that usually end up at the top of various tests, and that is Blueair and IQAir. Blueair can be ordered from eaeasy.com, and if you search the Chiang Mai forum for IQAir, I remember somebody mentioned where they ordered that from. The air at the output of a good air purifier is one to two magnitudes cleaner than the air at the output of an AC with 3M filtrete attached, even when the AC is a brand new AC with Samsung\s "Virus Doctor" system that is supposed to further clean the air. This I can say after comparing the two directly with a particle counter from Dylos corporation (DC1700).

I do not believe Blueair or IQAir provide the best value for money, and in fact, Consumer Reports USA ranked a much cheaper air purifier from Whirlpool as it's #1 (with Blueair at #2 and #3. IQAir was for some reason not part of the test), and they do not seem to have included the factor that the Whirlpool costs one third or so of the Blueair units.

Unfortunately there are big differences in how well air purifiers filter the air, whether or not they release ozone (something warned against strongly) into the air, as well as the volume or air they move (measured as CADR - clean air delivery rate). For instance, I have the largest Blueair model, but it sadly has little or no measurable effect when placed in the very large and leaking livingroom, with no doors between it and the kitchen or the second floor. The unit works very well in the 25m2 bedroom however.

The CADR numbers you should be able to see on the packaging of the air purifier, but the other things one can only go to independent tests to know. If you search for one of my recent posts, I mentioned a couple of websites with some test published.

IQAir and Blueair are a "no headache" decision I think. You will get one of the best air purifiers available for domesic use, and you will pay a premium for it. If you read the various tests available and try to find a model available in Thailand, and you might very well save a bunch of money and get the same result however. E.g., the 500B filter cost somebody quoted here is less than a tenth of the filter cost of the Blueair 650E model, and needs to be replaced every 180 days. I do not know how well that works however. Hopefully it works similarly good to the top brands, but unless the unit has been tested by independent professionals, how would one know?

I believe you when you say the air is cleaner, as its a HEPA filter is it not? But the volume of air a tiny filter can clean is nothing compared to an aircon. I would rather have two large aircons cleaning all the air in our condo over and over again rather than a tiny unit putting out a small amount of very clean air into a room filled with dirty air. It will take a small unit a long time to clean the air in an entire room, and by that time, the air cons will have cleaned the same air many times over.

And if one was so inclined, they could double up on the 3M filter material making it twice as thick and in theory catching twice as many particles. But I am happy with the amount of matter a single layer filters out.

You seem very certain of what you say.

I know the Blueair 650E uses less than 20 minutes at max speed to reduce the particle count in a polluted 25m2 room by about 90%. How long does your AC take to do the same? 5 minutes? 10 minutes?

Edited March 8, 2014 by Awk

[Awk]

You seem very certain of what you say.

I know the Blueair 650E uses less than 20 minutes at max speed to reduce the particle count in a polluted 25m2 room by about 90%. How long does your AC take to do the same? 5 minutes? 10 minutes?

I seam certain by relying on my common sense. I do not have specs to share, but my common sense tells me that my LARGE and POWERFUL aircon with the filter size of 1.4M x 0.35M cleans more volume of air, faster than a small stand alone unit. Within minutes our large room is feeling quite cool, so that tells me that within minutes, the majority of the dirty air has already been filtered once. I don't know how many times an hour our aircon is filtering our air, nor do I really care, as I believe its many more times that a small dedicated air purifier. The proof is in the pudding when I take off the 3M filters and wash them and see the BLACK water.

I am certain that the 3M filters are working to a high degree, and sleep well knowing that for a very small investment of a few hundred baht we have clean air in our condo. If you are happy with your stand alone unit, than thats just great.

That sounds good. How clean is the air in your condo when the AC with 3M Filtrete is running? I.e., compared to the outside, does your condo contain 80% of the outside PM 10 and PM2.5 particles? 50%? 10%? 1%? I mean, just a rough ballpark figure could be helpful for people thinking about what to do now that things are starting to get bad.

Also, does your AC with 3M Filtrete filter both the PM2.5 and PM10 particles?

[Jose]

Bought the Hatari HT-AP12 unit today at HomePro (Big C @ Super Hwy, Chiang Mai) - on special at 4888 Baht, with an extra HEPA filter and a medium-sized fan thrown in. Can comfirm that the ionizer function may be switched off through the remote control.

Please let us know what you think of it. I'm busy this weekend but may head to HomePro next week to pick one up.

Hard to tell so far, as I'm also running 24/7 a large a/c unit covered in 3M filtrete material which I change weekly under the current conditions.

After running both (a/c w/Filtrete & Hatari HT-AP12 filter) on and off for a couple of days, our initial impression is that whilst the Hatari unit seems to do a somewhat better job of filtering the air, the perceived air-quality difference between the two is minimal.

I would say that the Hatari's main advantage is in its lower running costs (electricity and longer-lasting HEPA filter), and quieter operation.

Since we need to run the a/c to cool the house, I find that the Hatari filter is practically redundant in our household. My guess is that it will probably sit there unused until I find a suitable use for it. Or, PM me if you have a need for a practically-new unit (with spare filter) at a discount.

[Awk]

You seem very certain of what you say.

I know the Blueair 650E uses less than 20 minutes at max speed to reduce the particle count in a polluted 25m2 room by about 90%. How long does your AC take to do the same? 5 minutes? 10 minutes?

I seam certain by relying on my common sense. I do not have specs to share, but my common sense tells me that my LARGE and POWERFUL aircon with the filter size of 1.4M x 0.35M cleans more volume of air, faster than a small stand alone unit. Within minutes our large room is feeling quite cool, so that tells me that within minutes, the majority of the dirty air has already been filtered once. I don't know how many times an hour our aircon is filtering our air, nor do I really care, as I believe its many more times that a small dedicated air purifier. The proof is in the pudding when I take off the 3M filters and wash them and see the BLACK water.

I am certain that the 3M filters are working to a high degree, and sleep well knowing that for a very small investment of a few hundred baht we have clean air in our condo. If you are happy with your stand alone unit, than thats just great.

That sounds good. How clean is the air in your condo when the AC with 3M Filtrete is running? I.e., compared to the outside, does your condo contain 80% of the outside PM 10 and PM2.5 particles? 50%? 10%? 1%? I mean, just a rough ballpark figure could be helpful for people thinking about what to do now that things are starting to get bad.

Also, does your AC with 3M Filtrete filter both the PM2.5 and PM10 particles?

Im sorry, I dont speak geek.

I did mention that I don't have any specs right? And that I use what I call common sense and trust that 3M, which is a world leader in filters and respirators have provided a product that does a half decent job.

This is not rocket science, unless you want it to be, which it seems you do. I have better things to do than take micro particle readings around my condo.

True, this is not rocket science. But it is science. And in science on

does publish statements based on guesses or sense, be it common

or special.

It is possible to measure the particles, or pollution, in a room, and

find out whether one's common sense is right or wrong.

And as anyone with any science background whatsoever will tell you,

even experts will make blatantly wrong guesses about things in the

very field they are experts in. That is why they insist on testing

their guess before stating it in anything resembling a public forum,

lest they later be ridiculed.

With small children, and my lack of education in environmental

science or in how effective an AC + 3M Filtrete is in practice, I admit

there is little I feel is better or more important for me to do than to

"take micro particle readings around my condo".

But I get the impression you are not interested in the science of this,

or in verifying whether what you call your common sense is right or wrong.

[Awk]

Bought the Hatari HT-AP12 unit today at HomePro (Big C @ Super Hwy, Chiang Mai) - on special at 4888 Baht, with an extra HEPA filter and a medium-sized fan thrown in. Can comfirm that the ionizer function may be switched off through the remote control.

Please let us know what you think of it. I'm busy this weekend but may head to HomePro next week to pick one up.

Hard to tell so far, as I'm also running 24/7 a large a/c unit covered in 3M filtrete material which I change weekly under the current conditions.

After running both (a/c w/Filtrete & Hatari HT-AP12 filter) on and off for a couple of days, our initial impression is that whilst the Hatari unit seems to do a somewhat better job of filtering the air, the perceived air-quality difference between the two is minimal.

I would say that the Hatari's main advantage is in its lower running costs (electricity and longer-lasting HEPA filter), and quieter operation.

Since we need to run the a/c to cool the house, I find that the Hatari filter is practically redundant in our household. My guess is that it will probably sit there unused until I find a suitable use for it. Or, PM me if you have a need for a practically-new unit (with spare filter) at a discount.

One thing one should be aware of, perhaps obvious to smarter people that me so I hope I do not offend you, but I wasted the first 10-20 minutes of a test by not thinking about it, is that a modern AC with a thermostat will, of course, switch to idle once the target temperature is reached. From then on it will probably remain mostly idle, only waking up now and then, and thus providing little filtration effect I suspect, unless the few moments it wakes up every now and then are enough. I doubt the latter, but have not (yet?) tried to verify it.

The AC might support a "fan" mode (the brand new AC I am currently testing with 3M Filtrete does and that is the mode I now use when testing it), which keeps running until one manually switch the AC off. This mode provides no cooling effect however, and at this time, one needs both cooling and air filtration unfortunately.

Maybe it will work to set the target temperature of the AC to something low enough to never be reached in practice, if possible, to prevent the AC from going idle. Apart from that, I am not sure what one can do if one has such a nice and modern AC, except possibly manually opening it up and disabling the thermostat, if one has enough electronics knowledge. Invalidating any warranty at the same time of course. This was no problem with the ancient ACs in my own rented home of course, so for something they might be better. ;-)

Edited March 9, 2014 by Awk

[Jose]

One thing one should be aware of, perhaps obvious to smarter people that me so I hope I do not offend you, but I wasted the first 10-20 minutes of a test by not thinking about it, is that a modern AC with a thermostat will, of course, switch to idle once the target temperature is reached. From then on it will probably remain mostly idle, only waking up now and then, and thus providing little filtration effect I suspect, unless the few moments it wakes up every now and then are enough. I doubt the latter, but have not (yet?) tried to verify it.

The AC might support a "fan" mode (the brand new AC I am currently testing with 3M Filtrete does and that is the mode I now use when testing it), which keeps running until one manually switch the AC off. This mode provides no cooling effect however, and at this time, one needs both cooling and air filtration unfortunately.

Maybe it will work to set the target temperature of the AC to something low enough to never be reached in practice, if possible, to prevent the AC from going idle. Apart from that, I am not sure what one can do if one has such a nice and modern AC, except possibly manually opening it up and disabling the thermostat, if one has enough electronics knowledge. Invalidating any warranty at the same time of course. This was no problem with the ancient ACs in my own rented home of course, so for something they might be better. ;-)

Awk, when the dialed temperature is reached by our a/c, its thermostat switches off the outside compressor but the fan keeps running, so we have continuous air filtration regardless of room temperature.

Filtrete material is already dark after just two days - may need to change it every four days at this rate.

[Awk]

One thing one should be aware of, perhaps obvious to smarter people that me so I hope I do not offend you, but I wasted the first 10-20 minutes of a test by not thinking about it, is that a modern AC with a thermostat will, of course, switch to idle once the target temperature is reached. From then on it will probably remain mostly idle, only waking up now and then, and thus providing little filtration effect I suspect, unless the few moments it wakes up every now and then are enough. I doubt the latter, but have not (yet?) tried to verify it.

The AC might support a "fan" mode (the brand new AC I am currently testing with 3M Filtrete does and that is the mode I now use when testing it), which keeps running until one manually switch the AC off. This mode provides no cooling effect however, and at this time, one needs both cooling and air filtration unfortunately.

Maybe it will work to set the target temperature of the AC to something low enough to never be reached in practice, if possible, to prevent the AC from going idle. Apart from that, I am not sure what one can do if one has such a nice and modern AC, except possibly manually opening it up and disabling the thermostat, if one has enough electronics knowledge. Invalidating any warranty at the same time of course. This was no problem with the ancient ACs in my own rented home of course, so for something they might be better. ;-)

Awk, when the dialed temperature is reached by our a/c, its thermostat switches off the outside compressor but the fan keeps running, so we have continuous air filtration regardless of room temperature.

Filtrete material is already dark after just two days - may need to change it every four days at this rate.

Ah, that is interesting. Thank you, I will make sure to check if that is the case with the AC I am testing with also. I noticed the compressor outside switched off, but the fan inside is very quiet, so it may have still been running without me noticing it.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

For my air conditioners all I need to do is take the fan speed off 'automatic' and set it to a setting that will continuously blow through a good amount of air.

When on 'automatic' it dials down the fan when the set temperature is reached. But if I dial in a particular speed then it will just keep blowing at that speed forever.

And then it also has a fan-only mode and a 'dry' mode.

[Mapguy]

I don't want to get overly technical because what I have found out from 3M is that the simple extra filter cloth for room air conditioners is designed for and does provide some effective reduction in micro particulate air pollution (including PM<2.5). It is not perfect, the results are partial, but for the price it is the best thing going for an inexpensive partial solution. Obviously, you have to periodically clean and change the material. But it is a bargain.

Part of the research problem has been that 3M decided to apply its own rating criteria that are difficult to match with more universally-applied standards. They weren't, however, as far as I can tell, trying to con anyone. If you want further information, please contact 3M, just as I did. Otherwise, just be practical. Just get the Filtrate material (Name copyrighted) at your local HomePro or wherever.

[Jose]

I find that trusting in a well known brand such as 3M, is comfort enough

Yes, comfort indeed... 3M is very well known - not least for spreading PFOS throughout the ecosystem, a persistent global pollutant that causes cancer and other ailments, traces of which are found in many animals including humans.

[Awk]

There were some difference in opinion regarding what will faster "clean" a room, an AC or an airpurifier, so I would like to add some actual data, hopefully of interest to some.

I am still analysing things, but I attach a draft graph displaying some of the difference between a new Samsung AC running at full speed with 3M Filtrete attached on top of the original air filter, with Samsung's "Virus Doctor" feature too, in a room that is around 18m2, and a an air purifier (Blueair 650E) also running at full speed in the same room. At different points in time of course. ;-)

For understanding the graphs, it is important to note that the pm10 values
are shown on the right-side Y-axis. The left-side Y-axis shows only the
pm2.5 values, and has a different scale since there are relatively many
pm2.5 particles compared to pm10.

In short, this graph shows the following:

1) At 22:33 we turn on the AC on full speed, and let it run at that
speed till 23:21. We then turn the AC off for 8 minutes, and measure
the particle count outside the room at that time, indicated with the
red '+' mark for pm 2.5 values and the green 'x' mark for pm 10 values

As can be seen, the AC with 3M Filtrete has reduced the particle
count by quite a bit, especially for the larger pm 10 particles,
during the 50 minutes it has run.

During the 8 minutes it does not run, the particle count in the room
does a slight jump. Whether it does that due to the AC being turned
off or due to me opening and closing the door to the outside a couple
of times to move the particle counter from inside to the outside is
not relevant for this graph.


- At 23:29 I switch on the Blueair 650E, max speed, with the AC still off.
And well, you can see for yourselves what happens during the next 20
minutes, in particular with the (supposedly more harmful) pm2.5 count.

If there is any interest from others here, I will possibly update my
amateur's analysis PDF that I posted in another thread with some more
data and introduce some graphs too.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Awk

[harrry]

There were some difference in opinion regarding what will faster "clean" a room, an AC or an airpurifier, so I would like to add some actual data, hopefully of interest to some.

I am still analysing things, but I attach a draft graph displaying some of the difference between a new Samsung AC running at full speed with 3M Filtrete attached on top of the original air filter, with Samsung's "Virus Doctor" feature too, in a room that is around 18m2, and a an air purifier (Blueair 650E) also running at full speed in the same room. At different points in time of course. ;-)

For understanding the graphs, it is important to note that the pm10 values

are shown on the right-side Y-axis. The left-side Y-axis shows only the

pm2.5 values, and has a different scale since there are relatively many

pm2.5 particles compared to pm10.

In short, this graph shows the following:

1) At 22:33 we turn on the AC on full speed, and let it run at that

speed till 23:21. We then turn the AC off for 8 minutes, and measure

the particle count outside the room at that time, indicated with the

red '+' mark for pm 2.5 values and the green 'x' mark for pm 10 values

As can be seen, the AC with 3M Filtrete has reduced the particle

count by quite a bit, especially for the larger pm 10 particles,

during the 50 minutes it has run.

During the 8 minutes it does not run, the particle count in the room

does a slight jump. Whether it does that due to the AC being turned

off or due to me opening and closing the door to the outside a couple

of times to move the particle counter from inside to the outside is

not relevant for this graph.

- At 23:29 I switch on the Blueair 650E, max speed, with the AC still off.

And well, you can see for yourselves what happens during the next 20

minutes, in particular with the (supposedly more harmful) pm2.5 count.

If there is any interest from others here, I will possibly update my

amateur's analysis PDF that I posted in another thread with some more

data and introduce some graphs too.

You don't work for Blueair by chance?

I never took science but can already see where your little experiment is flawed.

You used your aircon to clean the room for almost an hour, and THEN turned on your air purifier??

Why not let your aircon run for 2 hours…..take readings.

Next day, in a room that was IN THE SAME CONDITION as the start of the first test, turn on the blue air and let it run for 2 hours? Then take readings.

Any "scientist" can skew the results of a test in favour of what they want. Remember, Medical doctors used to promote smoking…..

I think that for the purposes of this the test results are valid.

Testing on seperate days is not valid as environmental conditions are not the same.

True tests could possibly done at the same time with identical rooms in identical conditions but this is hard to do and not justified.

I find the 2.5 readings interesting and for me very important. I swear by my filters and although the airconditioner filters are useful (not least because they reduce the need to service the aircon) they cannot replace the filters I use.

What I do have trouble understanding is that I believe pm10 refers to the number of particles less than 10 microns which also include the 2.5 micron particles so I can see why the aircon filters reduce the pm10 but take out less of the 2.5 micron and smaller and iin your graph the bluesky seems more efficient on 2.5 than it is on the larger particles. Why?

Edited March 10, 2014 by harrry

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

my hack is to to use 2 layers of Filtrete over the intake which is on top of my unit.

I use small amount of tape to hold down the edges.

Just off the cuff measurement where I put my eye ball near the A/C's outflow and notice less eye irritation than using the filtrete over the internal filter. My theory is don't suck dirty air into the unit at all.

I might try adding a layer to internal filter next for a total of 3 layers.

Cool experiment Awk has shared. What is the measuring unit? cost etc?

[Awk]

There were some difference in opinion regarding what will faster "clean" a room, an AC or an airpurifier, so I would like to add some actual data, hopefully of interest to some.

I am still analysing things, but I attach a draft graph displaying some of the difference between a new Samsung AC running at full speed with 3M Filtrete attached on top of the original air filter, with Samsung's "Virus Doctor" feature too, in a room that is around 18m2, and a an air purifier (Blueair 650E) also running at full speed in the same room. At different points in time of course. ;-)

For understanding the graphs, it is important to note that the pm10 values

are shown on the right-side Y-axis. The left-side Y-axis shows only the

pm2.5 values, and has a different scale since there are relatively many

pm2.5 particles compared to pm10.

In short, this graph shows the following:

1) At 22:33 we turn on the AC on full speed, and let it run at that

speed till 23:21. We then turn the AC off for 8 minutes, and measure

the particle count outside the room at that time, indicated with the

red '+' mark for pm 2.5 values and the green 'x' mark for pm 10 values

As can be seen, the AC with 3M Filtrete has reduced the particle

count by quite a bit, especially for the larger pm 10 particles,

during the 50 minutes it has run.

During the 8 minutes it does not run, the particle count in the room

does a slight jump. Whether it does that due to the AC being turned

off or due to me opening and closing the door to the outside a couple

of times to move the particle counter from inside to the outside is

not relevant for this graph.

- At 23:29 I switch on the Blueair 650E, max speed, with the AC still off.

And well, you can see for yourselves what happens during the next 20

minutes, in particular with the (supposedly more harmful) pm2.5 count.

If there is any interest from others here, I will possibly update my

amateur's analysis PDF that I posted in another thread with some more

data and introduce some graphs too.

You don't work for Blueair by chance?

I never took science but can already see where your little experiment is flawed.

You used your aircon to clean the room for almost an hour, and THEN turned on your air purifier??

Why not let your aircon run for 2 hours…..take readings.

Next day, in a room that was IN THE SAME CONDITION as the start of the first test, turn on the blue air and let it run for 2 hours? Then take readings.

Any "scientist" can skew the results of a test in favour of what they want. Remember, Medical doctors used to promote smoking…..

Nope, and here are some of the reasons why you are wrong:

1) It is impossible for me to do these test under the same conditions. That would require some sort of clean room with an external pollution source that could be controlled so that the outside air was the exact same on the the different days. Like harry said.

2) Is it not fairly obvious, science background or not, that if you start cleaning very dirty air, you will more quickly see an improvement, than if you start cleaning air that is already fairly clean? The AC gets to start with the dirtiest air, the air that has the most particles. Each cubic meter of air that passes through the AC at the start of the test contains more particles ("more pollution"), and the AC's 3M filter should therefore be able to reduce the particle count in the room quicker, if it operates at the same efficiency as the air purifier.

When the Blueair starts, the air contains fewer particle ("less pollution") per cubic meter.

Thus to remove a given number of particles from the air, more air has to pass through the Blueair than has to pass through the AC.

If anything, this test is skewed in favour of the AC/3M combination, not the Bluair. Had you said that, I would have agreed.

[Awk]

There were some difference in opinion regarding what will faster "clean" a room, an AC or an airpurifier, so I would like to add some actual data, hopefully of interest to some.

I am still analysing things, but I attach a draft graph displaying some of the difference between a new Samsung AC running at full speed with 3M Filtrete attached on top of the original air filter, with Samsung's "Virus Doctor" feature too, in a room that is around 18m2, and a an air purifier (Blueair 650E) also running at full speed in the same room. At different points in time of course. ;-)

For understanding the graphs, it is important to note that the pm10 values

are shown on the right-side Y-axis. The left-side Y-axis shows only the

pm2.5 values, and has a different scale since there are relatively many

pm2.5 particles compared to pm10.

In short, this graph shows the following:

1) At 22:33 we turn on the AC on full speed, and let it run at that

speed till 23:21. We then turn the AC off for 8 minutes, and measure

the particle count outside the room at that time, indicated with the

red '+' mark for pm 2.5 values and the green 'x' mark for pm 10 values

As can be seen, the AC with 3M Filtrete has reduced the particle

count by quite a bit, especially for the larger pm 10 particles,

during the 50 minutes it has run.

During the 8 minutes it does not run, the particle count in the room

does a slight jump. Whether it does that due to the AC being turned

off or due to me opening and closing the door to the outside a couple

of times to move the particle counter from inside to the outside is

not relevant for this graph.

- At 23:29 I switch on the Blueair 650E, max speed, with the AC still off.

And well, you can see for yourselves what happens during the next 20

minutes, in particular with the (supposedly more harmful) pm2.5 count.

If there is any interest from others here, I will possibly update my

amateur's analysis PDF that I posted in another thread with some more

data and introduce some graphs too.

You don't work for Blueair by chance?

I never took science but can already see where your little experiment is flawed.

You used your aircon to clean the room for almost an hour, and THEN turned on your air purifier??

Why not let your aircon run for 2 hours…..take readings.

Next day, in a room that was IN THE SAME CONDITION as the start of the first test, turn on the blue air and let it run for 2 hours? Then take readings.

Any "scientist" can skew the results of a test in favour of what they want. Remember, Medical doctors used to promote smoking…..

I think that for the purposes of this the test results are valid.

Testing on seperate days is not valid as environmental conditions are not the same.

True tests could possibly done at the same time with identical rooms in identical conditions but this is hard to do and not justified.

I find the 2.5 readings interesting and for me very important. I swear by my filters and although the airconditioner filters are useful (not least because they reduce the need to service the aircon) they cannot replace the filters I use.

What I do have trouble understanding is that I believe pm10 refers to the number of particles less than 10 microns which also include the 2.5 micron particles so I can see why the aircon filters reduce the pm10 but take out less of the 2.5 micron and smaller and iin your graph the bluesky seems more efficient on 2.5 than it is on the larger particles. Why?

You think the tests are valid? Ok. But it still does not change the fact that he tested two different methods AFTER one was allowed to clean the air for an hour.

"I think that for the purposes of this the test results are valid."

This is one of my beefs with science. You have someone with some degree of knowledge interpreting results based on his OPINION.

I thought "science" was meant to have LOGIC and be based on FACTS? Because, logic tells me, and the FACTS are, the two tests were not the completed under the same circumstances.

Why not open windows and doors, wait a few hours, take readings outside AND inside and confirm the inside is at the same level as the first test?

Once again, I am no "scientist" but its easy to see that the two tests were not the same. It makes me wonder, why even bother going through all the hassle if you are not testing the under the same conditions??

Actually I have done that to (opening the doors). That is not to confirm that the level afterwards is the same however, which would be meaningless because neither can I easily start with the same level for the indoor air, I have no control over the outside air seeping in either. The latter is what makes all my experiments questionable. If the level inside after a given amount of time is X, that could in theory be due just as much to the air quality outside changing for the better or the worse, which will of course affect the inside air considerably, depending on how tight the room is sealed. My only recipe for that is to do all tests several times. If the pattern (and not the exact level, which is as said meaningless) is the same for all measurements, I make the assumption that the results of the tests are valid.

It could of course still be the case that I am very unlucky. That on all occasions where I tested the air purifier, the air outside was very good, while on all occasions I tested the AC/3M combination, the air outside is excellent. That is not impossible, and I do try to make some sporadic tests of the outside air while testing inside. Since I only have one particle counter, that unfortunately involves stopping the measurements inside and opening the door to the outside so I can move the particle counter there.

So indeed, there are many reservations that can be made about my tests, and I am not submitting my analysis to Scientific American any time soon. ;-) The points you bring up are however wrong and only shows a lack of understanding on your part.

[SoloFlyer]

_{Vibe, you say you wash your filtrete? I found the stuff to fray up very easily whilst cutting yesterday. I would think removing the tape etc would pretty much destroy them. How do you wash em?}

[mallymal]

Is there any need for all of this? Filtrete states it can filter pm10 and larger, blueair states can filter down to 0.03 micron (if I remember correctly)

Yes filtrete gets rid on a lot of stuff you can see (which is good) but blueair gets rid of more harmful sub particles and ozone.

You simply get what you pay for!

[Awk]

What I do have trouble understanding is that I believe pm10 refers to the number of particles less than 10 microns which also include the 2.5 micron particles so I can see why the aircon filters reduce the pm10 but take out less of the 2.5 micron and smaller and iin your graph the bluesky seems more efficient on 2.5 than it is on the larger particles. Why?

Hmm, yes, the pm10 count refers to particles less than 10 um, and does not include the pm2.5 particles. I.e., the pm10 count represents the particles larger than 2.5um, but smaller than 10um. The pm2.5 count represents particles between about 0.5um and 2.5. (0.5um is the stated detection limit of the DC1700 particle counter I use).

Why the Blueair seems less efficent than the AC on the pm10 particles? That is an excellent observation.

The reason for this I believe I explain in my 2) point in reply to VIBE's post a few minutes ago. As you see, the AC/3M combination has already done a pretty good job at reducing the amount of pm10 particles at the time the Blueair is started. I.e., when the AC started, the PM10 count was over 300. By the time the Blueair is started, the PM10 count is only around 40 or so. There isn't all that much more the Blueair can do at that point. Even if it were to completely eliminate all PM10 particles, it would still only result in a reduction of 40. Nothing compared to the AC/3M combination's reduction of 260+.

So as I said in my other reply, this graph is quite unfair to the Blueair, as the the results are very much skewed in favour of the AC/3M combination.

[mallymal]

I'm talking about the thin rolls of filtrete we put on AirCon units, not the better range of filtrete filters, so I'm not wrong!

[Awk]

You can say all the justification that you want, but the FACT is the two tests were not done under the same conditions. Why not reverse the test then?? Start with a dirty air filled room, let the stand alone run for 50 mins, then turn on the aircon for 20 mins. At least if you had shown that you did the same test, two different times it would appear more logical.

Regardless, I don't really care that much about the results, as I feel what we have cleaning our air is suffice. And the following saying keeps popping into my mind…."when you wrestle with a pig you both get dirty".

I wish you continued entertainment / enjoyment with your (skewed) experirments. Geek on bro….

Well, I have done that too. The problem is that when I do that, the air inside the room gets gradually dirtier. The AC/3M combination is not able to keep the particle count down to the level the air purifier kept it. This must of course be because the (much dirtier) outside air is continously seeping in, whether the air purifier or the AC is running. The AC/3M combination unfortunately has no chance at keeping the particle count down to the level the air purifier keeps it. Instead of the graphs showing the particle count continuing to drop once I switch from Blueair to AC/3M, the graphs shows the particle count raising drastically for the pm2.5 count. The pm10 count does not change much, so the AC/3M does seem to do a comparable job at filtering that.

Regarding sayings popping into one's mind, I admit I also have had one popping into my mind during these conversations with you.

“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” George Carlin I believe.

Not sure what your continued references to "geek" are, but coming from you I guess I should take it as a compliment.

[Awk]

my hack is to to use 2 layers of Filtrete over the intake which is on top of my unit.

I use small amount of tape to hold down the edges.

Just off the cuff measurement where I put my eye ball near the A/C's outflow and notice less eye irritation than using the filtrete over the internal filter. My theory is don't suck dirty air into the unit at all.

I might try adding a layer to internal filter next for a total of 3 layers.

Cool experiment Awk has shared. What is the measuring unit? cost etc?

Well, at least you are basing your opinion on something real, though one should of course reproduce the eye ball experiment by also using two layers around the internal filter. ;-)

The unit I use is a DC1700 from Dylos. Their website is |http://www.dylosproducts.com/" and you can see the costs there. If you plan on ordering one, perhaps it could be marked as "laptop" or "portable computer", which have zero tax in Thailand, so you only have to pay the 7% VAT I believe. Must be careful about the voltage difference though.

Such a unit could be quite useful for testing various ways of attaching 3M's Filtrete I suspect. I.e., hopefully the effect of using two layers of Filtrete on top of each others is not similar to the effect of using two condoms. ;-)

I btw have noticed when googling that 3M produces a range of Filtrete products with different ratings, some with a much higher rating than what I see for sale here at e.g. HomePro. Presumably they will do a better job at filtering the smaller particles.

[harrry]

my hack is to to use 2 layers of Filtrete over the intake which is on top of my unit.

I use small amount of tape to hold down the edges.

Just off the cuff measurement where I put my eye ball near the A/C's outflow and notice less eye irritation than using the filtrete over the internal filter. My theory is don't suck dirty air into the unit at all.

I might try adding a layer to internal filter next for a total of 3 layers.

Cool experiment Awk has shared. What is the measuring unit? cost etc?

Well, at least you are basing your opinion on something real, though one should of course reproduce the eye ball experiment by also using two layers around the internal filter. ;-)

The unit I use is a DC1700 from Dylos. Their website is |http://www.dylosproducts.com/" and you can see the costs there. If you plan on ordering one, perhaps it could be marked as "laptop" or "portable computer", which have zero tax in Thailand, so you only have to pay the 7% VAT I believe. Must be careful about the voltage difference though.

Such a unit could be quite useful for testing various ways of attaching 3M's Filtrete I suspect. I.e., hopefully the effect of using two layers of Filtrete on top of each others is not similar to the effect of using two condoms. ;-)

I btw have noticed when googling that 3M produces a range of Filtrete products with different ratings, some with a much higher rating than what I see for sale here at e.g. HomePro. Presumably they will do a better job at filtering the smaller particles.

Check the defininitions of PM10 and PM2,5

All the ones I find for PM10 are inclusive of PM2,5.ie,,,pm10 is all particles 10 microns or less. The only definitition I found that differed is the range given by your meter website. There they do say the ranges roughly equate to the PM10 an PM2.5

Edited March 10, 2014 by harrry

[Jose]

There were some difference in opinion regarding what will faster "clean" a room, an AC or an airpurifier, so I would like to add some actual data, hopefully of interest to some.

I am still analysing things, but I attach a draft graph displaying some of the difference between a new Samsung AC running at full speed with 3M Filtrete attached on top of the original air filter, with Samsung's "Virus Doctor" feature too, in a room that is around 18m2, and a an air purifier (Blueair 650E) also running at full speed in the same room. At different points in time of course. ;-)

For understanding the graphs, it is important to note that the pm10 values

are shown on the right-side Y-axis. The left-side Y-axis shows only the

pm2.5 values, and has a different scale since there are relatively many

pm2.5 particles compared to pm10.

In short, this graph shows the following:

1) At 22:33 we turn on the AC on full speed, and let it run at that

speed till 23:21. We then turn the AC off for 8 minutes, and measure

the particle count outside the room at that time, indicated with the

red '+' mark for pm 2.5 values and the green 'x' mark for pm 10 values

As can be seen, the AC with 3M Filtrete has reduced the particle

count by quite a bit, especially for the larger pm 10 particles,

during the 50 minutes it has run.

During the 8 minutes it does not run, the particle count in the room

does a slight jump. Whether it does that due to the AC being turned

off or due to me opening and closing the door to the outside a couple

of times to move the particle counter from inside to the outside is

not relevant for this graph.

- At 23:29 I switch on the Blueair 650E, max speed, with the AC still off.

And well, you can see for yourselves what happens during the next 20

minutes, in particular with the (supposedly more harmful) pm2.5 count.

If there is any interest from others here, I will possibly update my

amateur's analysis PDF that I posted in another thread with some more

data and introduce some graphs too.

Very interesting...

So to summarize, an a/c with Filtrete material does a good job of removing the larger PM10 particulates, with average results for PM2.5 removal. The dedicated air filter does a great job with both, according to your results.

More on atmospheric particulate matter here.

[Jose]

my hack is to to use 2 layers of Filtrete over the intake which is on top of my unit.

I use small amount of tape to hold down the edges.

Just off the cuff measurement where I put my eye ball near the A/C's outflow and notice less eye irritation than using the filtrete over the internal filter. My theory is don't suck dirty air into the unit at all.

I might try adding a layer to internal filter next for a total of 3 layers.

It would be interesting to compare the two Filtrete layers in a few days - this will tell us how efficient a single layer of the material is.

If that second layer is found to be clean, then it's likely that the only thing it is doing is impeding a/c airflow.

[Awk]

my hack is to to use 2 layers of Filtrete over the intake which is on top of my unit.

I use small amount of tape to hold down the edges.

Just off the cuff measurement where I put my eye ball near the A/C's outflow and notice less eye irritation than using the filtrete over the internal filter. My theory is don't suck dirty air into the unit at all.

I might try adding a layer to internal filter next for a total of 3 layers.

Cool experiment Awk has shared. What is the measuring unit? cost etc?

Well, at least you are basing your opinion on something real, though one should of course reproduce the eye ball experiment by also using two layers around the internal filter. ;-)

The unit I use is a DC1700 from Dylos. Their website is |http://www.dylosproducts.com/" and you can see the costs there. If you plan on ordering one, perhaps it could be marked as "laptop" or "portable computer", which have zero tax in Thailand, so you only have to pay the 7% VAT I believe. Must be careful about the voltage difference though.

Such a unit could be quite useful for testing various ways of attaching 3M's Filtrete I suspect. I.e., hopefully the effect of using two layers of Filtrete on top of each others is not similar to the effect of using two condoms. ;-)

I btw have noticed when googling that 3M produces a range of Filtrete products with different ratings, some with a much higher rating than what I see for sale here at e.g. HomePro. Presumably they will do a better job at filtering the smaller particles.

Check the defininitions of PM10 and PM2,5

All the ones I find for PM10 are inclusive of PM2,5.ie,,,pm10 is all particles 10 microns or less. The only definitition I found that differed is the range given by your meter website. There they do say the ranges roughly equate to the PM10 an PM2.5

The numbers I have used are for the definitions I stated above. I.e., pm10 does not include the pm2.5 particles.

If what you say is correct, which I have no reason to doubt, then I must certainly change the terminology I use to avoid confusion with the official terminology, or possibly include the pm2.5 count in the pm10 count like the official definition does. Will have to think a little about what is best to do. Thank you, I was not aware of this.