Missing Malaysia Airlines jet carrying 239 triggers Southeast Asia search

[F430murci]

Buddy, I am trying real hard to understand what you are saying, but it is much easier to go undetected over very remote parts of the Oceans than it is to go undetected over land. The shadow thing with a 777 is silly movie stuff. I believe flying below radar would have used too much fuel to make it to Northwest Pakistan, caused tremendous stress on the air frame and a 777 flying that low would have been seen by lots of people. Plus, it was dark . . .

Hi,

The shadow idea would be relatively straight forward to achieve. The problem would then be when the aircraft appears out of the shadow.

I don't think this is what happened. It must be somewhere in the rather large area they are searching.

Some big changes will be made in the industry due this missing aircraft.

I respect your opinion and you are certainly more knowledgeable than I. Most pilots with whom I spoke said sounds easy in theory, but not so in application with a 777. The Eglin guys in my building last week did seem a bit more confident about it being possible. Do you have knowledge of this actually being done over long distances with planes of this size?

Hi,

The aircraft automation would allow this to be flown accurately whilst shadowing another aircraft. The autopilot in conjunction with an appropriate lateral and vertical mode is what goes on in day to day operations, albeit at increased distances vertically.

A few night ago I had another aircraft 2000ft below our aircraft for quite a while. The aircraft was displayed on the traffic collision avoidance system, and on occasion it triggered the radio altimeter on the primary flight display.

So flying along at the same speed on the same route but at a different altitude will enable both aircraft to follow each other accurately.

Has it been done over long distances on an aircraft this size using a reduced vertical seperation. I don't know the answer to that.

I understand aircraft autation would be used. Naturally.

Planes of this size, however, would have to be much much closer than 2000 to blend radar signatures. Two 777s would have to be dangerously close to one another to show a blended signature on sophisticated millitary radar systems and military ATC are trained to watch for blended signatures and etc. Sophisticated radar equipment is designed to decipher blended signatures, especially of smaller more agile planes trying to shadow say a commercial airliner or other planes.

Do you know how close two 777s would have to be to show a blended radar signature on sophisticated military radar and what the orientation of the planes would have to be?

Can two 777s actually get close enough to blend signatures and fool sophisticated military radar systems? If so, what do you base that on?

Would there not be turbulence or difficulty remaining in a stable flight pattern to actually get close enough to blend on military radar? If so, would this not make it more difficult to hold the orientation and speed perfectly?

Edited April 3, 2014 by F430murci

[GentlemanJim]

I respect your opinion and you are certainly more knowledgeable than I. Most pilots with whom I spoke said sounds easy in theory, but not so in application with a 777. The Eglin guys in my building last week did seem a bit more confident about it being possible. Do you have knowledge of this actually being done over long distances with planes of this size?

Hi,

The aircraft automation would allow this to be flown accurately whilst shadowing another aircraft. The autopilot in conjunction with an appropriate lateral and vertical mode is what goes on in day to day operations, albeit at increased distances vertically.

A few night ago I had another aircraft 2000ft below our aircraft for quite a while. The aircraft was displayed on the traffic collision avoidance system, and on occasion it triggered the radio altimeter on the primary flight display.

So flying along at the same speed on the same route but at a different altitude will enable both aircraft to follow each other accurately.

Has it been done over long distances on an aircraft this size using a reduced vertical seperation. I don't know the answer to that.

I understand aircraft autation would be used. Naturally.

Planes of this size, however, would have to be much much closer than 2000 to blend radar signatures. Two 777s would have to be dangerously close to one another to show a blended signature on sophisticated millitary radar systems and military ATC are trained to watch for blended signatures and etc. Sophisticated radar equipment is designed to decipher blended signatures, especially of smaller more agile planes trying to shadow say a commercial airliner or other planes.

Do you know how close two 777s would have to be to show a blended radar signature on sophisticated military radar and what the orientation of the planes would have to be?

Can two 777s actually get close enough to blend signatures and fool sophisticated military radar systems? If so, what do you base that on?

Would there not be turbulence or difficulty remaining in a stable flight pattern to actually get close enough to blend on military radar? If so, would this not make it more difficult to hold the orientation and speed perfectly?

With the resolution of many military radars you would need to be within about a 600ft bubble or less to be confident you were difficult or impossible to detect. IF this was the scenario then whoever did it will not be someone that has done 200 hours in flight training school, they will be very experienced pilots, possibly with a military background. Imagine the type of flying conducted when two large military aircraft are involved in air to air refuelling, a skill that needs practising often for those aircraft types. The flying at that time is very intense in terms of the concentration required, but is definitely doable and would definitely give the desired results.

Military fighters would often practice sitting close in under a large transport or refuel aircraft to hide their position and when another fighter approached expecting an easy kill, the two surprises would pop out from underneath the large hull aircraft and give the opportunist the shock of his life. A pilot with the skill-set to do that could tag underneath/behind most things whilst flying any aircraft. But I only state all this to answer the possible scenario you pose in the question and not in anyway an indication of what I think happened, because.....I have no idea.

[davidstipek]

F30muri... You said...

"I said utter impossibility for the place to arrive in Pakistan "UNDETECTED." The good general has been all over the place on this point from US knows and is a cover up, Pakistan knows and is a cover up (would require NON-Taliban Pakistan cover up here though . . .) to saying he had a Boeing sources, then backing off and saying he did not have a Boeing source but he read about a Boeing source on the Internet website Lignet and on and on and on."

I could also ask you how they cannot Find Plane now... Is it because it flew somewhere... Undetected???

Thought that was utterly Impossible!

Buddy, I am trying real hard to understand what you are saying, but it is much easier to go undetected over very remote parts of the Oceans than it is to go undetected over land. The shadow thing with a 777 is silly movie stuff. I believe flying below radar would have used too much fuel to make it to Northwest Pakistan, caused tremendous stress on the air frame and a 777 flying that low would have been seen by lots of people. Plus, it was dark . . .

Hi,

The shadow idea would be relatively straight forward to achieve. The problem would then be when the aircraft appears out of the shadow.

I don't think this is what happened. It must be somewhere in the rather large area they are searching.

Some big changes will be made in the industry due this missing aircraft.

I respect your opinion and you are certainly more knowledgeable than I. Most pilots with whom I spoke said sounds easy in theory, but not so in application with a 777. The Eglin guys in my building last week did seem a bit more confident about it being possible. Do you have knowledge of this actually being done over long distances with planes of this size?

We did it many times in Vietnam hiding multiple F4's, F-16's... F104's together (4-6 Aircraft) Also completely hidden above and below B58 and B57's is strike forces. Later Militaries version of 767 also sucessfully hid multiple Aircraft making Radar think just Cargo Flight. It is possible for Tankers to real in and under Cutomers to keep them hidden until loads were compleed.

It could be done... Dangers is always there... Easier to be hidden if Lead Plane doesn't know who or what is in tow, for sure! The pilot who wants to be hidden has to be qualified!!

If its Dark...Night and your not Squaking and all systems disabled... It is possible to be in shadow until predetermind point is reached and break away. I is already a proven point that radar has missed you on your way out of South China Sea... At cruising Altitude one r two Pings are not going to be an issue as "Where the Hell did that come from"? Possibly they are going to reset controls and pass off as Junk reading... As after reset nothing is on sceen... They are not going to look at Reflective signals here because... Our Radar shows... "Nothing" and go back to Donuts and Coffee...

Or if you are being waited on (An Expected Guest... ) There could be a Second flight waiting to attach their leash and escort you to... where-ever...

So I am saying it is Possible to elude beening tracked... Seen... as remember this isn't in Daylight.. So even if someone heard you... They can't see and at this point.. no one knows to look, or that you are missing...

Someone else made a statement in this Forum, I believe is a good attachment. So I will add my version also:

These are just Ideas, of things that are possible and have been done in past. So of this past here I am a personal Witness to also! I have no attachment if true or not in this case, okay They are plausable ideas only. I just believe that EVERY Idea needs to be warrented. If we miss because someone said it was "Junk" I couldn't live with that result... Maybe they could... don't know...

We just need to find MH370 for the Families... At this point Screw the Countries! Simple solution... "NO MORE DELAYS" When you release something just state "This is an Idea that warrants Speculation" No one is going to say your not trying to keep them informed...

Edited April 3, 2014 by davidstipek

[boomerangutang]

The purported southern trajectory of the plane flies directly over the middle of Malaysia, near KL and nearly directly over Singapore. Do these countries have any functioning radar, commercial or military? If so, why have we heard next to nothing re; their tracking the mystery plane? I can understand their militaries might be sheepish about revealing capabilities, but come on, this search needs all the help it can get. Or perhaps they've provided data only to those on a 'need to know' basis. Alternatively, their defensive radar capabilities may be useless, turned off, or non-existent.

No on has mentioned India, in terms of the proposed northern route. India and Pakistan are essentially on a war-footing with each other. They're both nuclear powers. The region near their borders is one of the most scrutinized regions of the world. It's near impossible a large plane could go through there undetected.

[GentlemanJim]

We did it many times in Vietnam hiding multiple F4's, F-16's... F104's together (4-6 Aircraft) Also completely hidden above and below B58 and B57's is strike forces. Later Militaries version of 767 also sucessfully hid multiple Aircraft making Radar think just Cargo Flight. It is possible for Tankers to real in and under Cutomers to keep them hidden until loads were compleed.

It could be done... Dangers is always there... Easier to be hidden if Lead Plane doesn't know who or what is in tow, for sure! The pilot who wants to be hidden has to be qualified!!

If its Dark...Night and your not Squaking and all systems disabled... It is possible to be in shadow until predetermind point is reached and break away. I is already a proven point that radar has missed you on your way out of South China Sea... At cruising Altitude one r two Pings are not going to be an issue as "Where the Hell did that come from"? Possibly they are going to reset controls and pass off as Junk reading... As after reset nothing is on sceen... They are not going to look at Reflective signals here because... Our Radar shows... "Nothing" and go back to Donuts and Coffee...

Or if you are being waited on (An Expected Guest... ) There could be a Second flight waiting to attach their leash and escort you to... where-ever...

So I am saying it is Possible to elude beening tracked... Seen... as remember this isn't in Daylight.. So even if someone heard you... They can't see and at this point.. no one knows to look, or that you are missing...

Well you must have hidden the F 16 well because it did not enter into service till 1980 ish. F5 yes, F9F yes F111 yes, F16 nope. Yes it can be easily done with people with the right skill-set.

In general, If we progress onto these scenarios, or even the suicide scenario that must have been planned meticulously and with much research in order to chose a path that would be away from prying eyes, then you have to bin the idea of this all being carried out by a Captain who did it because his wife just left him and his political hero just got jailed. None of these scenarios are a spur of the minute thing, they would take meticulous in depth planning.

[F430murci]

I respect your opinion and you are certainly more knowledgeable than I. Most pilots with whom I spoke said sounds easy in theory, but not so in application with a 777. The Eglin guys in my building last week did seem a bit more confident about it being possible. Do you have knowledge of this actually being done over long distances with planes of this size?

Hi,

The aircraft automation would allow this to be flown accurately whilst shadowing another aircraft. The autopilot in conjunction with an appropriate lateral and vertical mode is what goes on in day to day operations, albeit at increased distances vertically.

A few night ago I had another aircraft 2000ft below our aircraft for quite a while. The aircraft was displayed on the traffic collision avoidance system, and on occasion it triggered the radio altimeter on the primary flight display.

So flying along at the same speed on the same route but at a different altitude will enable both aircraft to follow each other accurately.

Has it been done over long distances on an aircraft this size using a reduced vertical seperation. I don't know the answer to that.

I understand aircraft autation would be used. Naturally.

Planes of this size, however, would have to be much much closer than 2000 to blend radar signatures. Two 777s would have to be dangerously close to one another to show a blended signature on sophisticated millitary radar systems and military ATC are trained to watch for blended signatures and etc. Sophisticated radar equipment is designed to decipher blended signatures, especially of smaller more agile planes trying to shadow say a commercial airliner or other planes.

Do you know how close two 777s would have to be to show a blended radar signature on sophisticated military radar and what the orientation of the planes would have to be?

Can two 777s actually get close enough to blend signatures and fool sophisticated military radar systems? If so, what do you base that on?

Would there not be turbulence or difficulty remaining in a stable flight pattern to actually get close enough to blend on military radar? If so, would this not make it more difficult to hold the orientation and speed perfectly?

With the resolution of many military radars you would need to be within about a 600ft bubble or less to be confident you were difficult or impossible to detect. IF this was the scenario then whoever did it will not be someone that has done 200 hours in flight training school, they will be very experienced pilots, possibly with a military background. Imagine the type of flying conducted when two large military aircraft are involved in air to air refuelling, a skill that needs practising often for those aircraft types. The flying at that time is very intense in terms of the concentration required, but is definitely doable and would definitely give the desired results.

Military fighters would often practice sitting close in under a large transport or refuel aircraft to hide their position and when another fighter approached expecting an easy kill, the two surprises would pop out from underneath the large hull aircraft and give the opportunist the shock of his life. A pilot with the skill-set to do that could tag underneath/behind most things whilst flying any aircraft. But I only state all this to answer the possible scenario you pose in the question and not in anyway an indication of what I think happened, because.....I have no idea.

Refueling involves a coordinated effort and at what speed? Do we know if two large planes (not a fighter) staggered during refueling will blend on high end military radar or does send plane have to be more underneath.

The other factor is speed during refueling. Would increased speed create more wake turbulence that close?

Seems as if flying that close for that long would take a coordinated effort by both planes.

[boomerangutang]

All this talk of 'shadowing' and 'blending signatures' and such, IS MOOT. It takes two to tango. Are some now saying there could have been two large planes complicit with each other? Too much of a stretch. What's next, being towed by the Goodyear blimp?

[F430murci]

Buddy, I am trying real hard to understand what you are saying, but it is much easier to go undetected over very remote parts of the Oceans than it is to go undetected over land. The shadow thing with a 777 is silly movie stuff. I believe flying below radar would have used too much fuel to make it to Northwest Pakistan, caused tremendous stress on the air frame and a 777 flying that low would have been seen by lots of people. Plus, it was dark . . .

Hi,

The shadow idea would be relatively straight forward to achieve. The problem would then be when the aircraft appears out of the shadow.

I don't think this is what happened. It must be somewhere in the rather large area they are searching.

Some big changes will be made in the industry due this missing aircraft.

I respect your opinion and you are certainly more knowledgeable than I. Most pilots with whom I spoke said sounds easy in theory, but not so in application with a 777. The Eglin guys in my building last week did seem a bit more confident about it being possible. Do you have knowledge of this actually being done over long distances with planes of this size?

We did it many times in Vietnam hiding multiple F4's, F-16's... F104's together (4-6 Aircraft) Also completely hidden above and below B58 and B57's is strike forces. Later Militaries version of 767 also sucessfully hid multiple Aircraft making Radar think just Cargo Flight. It is possible for Tankers to real in and under Cutomers to keep them hidden until loads were compleed.

It could be done... Dangers is always there... Easier to be hidden if Lead Plane doesn't know who or what is in tow, for sure! The pilot who wants to be hidden has to be qualified!!

If its Dark...Night and your not Squaking and all systems disabled... It is possible to be in shadow until predetermind point is reached and break away. I is already a proven point that radar has missed you on your way out of South China Sea... At cruising Altitude one r two Pings are not going to be an issue as "Where the Hell did that come from"? Possibly they are going to reset controls and pass off as Junk reading... As after reset nothing is on sceen... They are not going to look at Reflective signals here because... Our Radar shows... "Nothing" and go back to Donuts and Coffee...

Or if you are being waited on (An Expected Guest... ) There could be a Second flight waiting to attach their leash and escort you to... where-ever...

So I am saying it is Possible to elude beening tracked... Seen... as remember this isn't in Daylight.. So even if someone heard you... They can't see and at this point.. no one knows to look, or that you are missing...

Someone else made a statement in this Forum, I believe is a good attachment. So I will add my version also:

These are just Ideas, of things that are possible and have been done in past. So of this past here I am a personal Witness to also! I have no attachment if true or not in this case, okay They are plausable ideas only. I just believe that EVERY Idea needs to be warrented. If we miss because someone said it was "Junk" I couldn't live with that result... Maybe they could... don't know...

We just need to find MH370 for the Families... At this point Screw the Countries! Simple solution... "NO MORE DELAYS" When you release something just state "This is an Idea that warrants Speculation" No one is going to say your not trying to keep them informed...

Radar technology may be a little better today than 50 years ago and we are talking to large planes that are not agile as a fighter. Military ATC is also trained to watch for or decipher possible blended signals.

Edited April 3, 2014 by F430murci

[davidstipek]

We did it many times in Vietnam hiding multiple F4's, F-16's... F104's together (4-6 Aircraft) Also completely hidden above and below B58 and B57's is strike forces. Later Militaries version of 767 also sucessfully hid multiple Aircraft making Radar think just Cargo Flight. It is possible for Tankers to real in and under Cutomers to keep them hidden until loads were compleed.

It could be done... Dangers is always there... Easier to be hidden if Lead Plane doesn't know who or what is in tow, for sure! The pilot who wants to be hidden has to be qualified!!

If its Dark...Night and your not Squaking and all systems disabled... It is possible to be in shadow until predetermind point is reached and break away. I is already a proven point that radar has missed you on your way out of South China Sea... At cruising Altitude one r two Pings are not going to be an issue as "Where the Hell did that come from"? Possibly they are going to reset controls and pass off as Junk reading... As after reset nothing is on sceen... They are not going to look at Reflective signals here because... Our Radar shows... "Nothing" and go back to Donuts and Coffee...

Or if you are being waited on (An Expected Guest... ) There could be a Second flight waiting to attach their leash and escort you to... where-ever...

So I am saying it is Possible to elude beening tracked... Seen... as remember this isn't in Daylight.. So even if someone heard you... They can't see and at this point.. no one knows to look, or that you are missing...

Well you must have hidden the F 16 well because it did not enter into service till 1980 ish. F5 yes, F9F yes F111 yes, F16 nope. Yes it can be easily done with people with the right skill-set.

In general, If we progress onto these scenarios, or even the suicide scenario that must have been planned meticulously and with much research in order to chose a path that would be away from prying eyes, then you have to bin the idea of this all being carried out by a Captain who did it because his wife just left him and his political hero just got jailed. None of these scenarios are a spur of the minute thing, they would take meticulous in depth planning.

Weong again Jim...

Being at the time my Logged Duty Station was in the Tactical Air Command (TAC) we had F16's, F100 A and B versions, F-4's Some (That somehow escaped being pulled out of active duty) B-58's SAC had most of the B-52's We also had yes... f-111's but I had no workings with them... If my Mom was still alive I would call her and have her locate Picture of me in Cockpit in Thailand Vin: 1966!! And get it to me so I and somehow meet you personally so you cannot comeup with "Being A PHOTOSHOPPED Photo.

Edited April 3, 2014 by davidstipek

[GentlemanJim]

Hi,

The aircraft automation would allow this to be flown accurately whilst shadowing another aircraft. The autopilot in conjunction with an appropriate lateral and vertical mode is what goes on in day to day operations, albeit at increased distances vertically.

A few night ago I had another aircraft 2000ft below our aircraft for quite a while. The aircraft was displayed on the traffic collision avoidance system, and on occasion it triggered the radio altimeter on the primary flight display.

So flying along at the same speed on the same route but at a different altitude will enable both aircraft to follow each other accurately.

Has it been done over long distances on an aircraft this size using a reduced vertical seperation. I don't know the answer to that.

I understand aircraft autation would be used. Naturally.

Planes of this size, however, would have to be much much closer than 2000 to blend radar signatures. Two 777s would have to be dangerously close to one another to show a blended signature on sophisticated millitary radar systems and military ATC are trained to watch for blended signatures and etc. Sophisticated radar equipment is designed to decipher blended signatures, especially of smaller more agile planes trying to shadow say a commercial airliner or other planes.

Do you know how close two 777s would have to be to show a blended radar signature on sophisticated military radar and what the orientation of the planes would have to be?

Can two 777s actually get close enough to blend signatures and fool sophisticated military radar systems? If so, what do you base that on?

Would there not be turbulence or difficulty remaining in a stable flight pattern to actually get close enough to blend on military radar? If so, would this not make it more difficult to hold the orientation and speed perfectly?

With the resolution of many military radars you would need to be within about a 600ft bubble or less to be confident you were difficult or impossible to detect. IF this was the scenario then whoever did it will not be someone that has done 200 hours in flight training school, they will be very experienced pilots, possibly with a military background. Imagine the type of flying conducted when two large military aircraft are involved in air to air refuelling, a skill that needs practising often for those aircraft types. The flying at that time is very intense in terms of the concentration required, but is definitely doable and would definitely give the desired results.

Military fighters would often practice sitting close in under a large transport or refuel aircraft to hide their position and when another fighter approached expecting an easy kill, the two surprises would pop out from underneath the large hull aircraft and give the opportunist the shock of his life. A pilot with the skill-set to do that could tag underneath/behind most things whilst flying any aircraft. But I only state all this to answer the possible scenario you pose in the question and not in anyway an indication of what I think happened, because.....I have no idea.

Refueling involves a coordinated effort and at what speed? Do we know if two large planes (not a fighter) staggered during refueling will blend on high end military radar or does send plane have to be more underneath.

The other factor is speed during refueling. Would increased speed create more wake turbulence that close?

Seems as if flying that close for that long would take a coordinated effort by both planes.

Ballpark speed say 300kts but that analogy was only given so that you could picture it - one aircraft close up behind another. Regardless of speed, it can easily be done and does not take two aircraft in this scenario to be working together. The only issue when in close formation is that you want the 'lead' aircraft to avoid sharp, sudden unexpected movements, although we just watch out for that and be there and cope. A commercial airliner could fly on completely oblivious to the fact you were under it, and they are not known for sudden moves and steep angle bank turns. You could even listen out on a hand held receiver if you wanted the cockpit as near to dead as possible and would hear instructions to the other aircraft and could pre-empt accordingly. The radar resolution is as I said in my pervious post. At the known distances from known military radars the resolution would be around 600ft.

I don't think this happened though. It is possible, but I don't think it happened with MH 370.

[sunshine51]

Howdy all. I'm still in KL covering this fiasco and I have nothing

to tell you that you don't know or presume already...apols for that.

But here's the deal...over the past few days I have accomplished

some research on my own regarding debris and debris "fields".

With all the vehicles & people involved in the search from sea level

to awfully high altitudes...plus knowing observers in aircraft just

do not start looking when they arrive "on station", they start looking

as soon as if not before "feet wet" (over water), adding that items

such as seat cushions & other bouyant articles can float for many

years in open ocean regardless of sea state; I researched back to

before WWII....and...

Then if MH370 went down where "THEY" said it has "presumably"

gone down...where's the <deleted> debris/debris field?

The conspiracy, piracy, psycho...etc...etc...etc...theories are all

really amusing and some are down right humorous....however...

again...Where is the <deleted> debris?

Aircraft ditch or crash into the water on occasion, ships sink on

occasion and there is always debris of some sorts floating

about...save for the few nuke subs that met ther demise at

depth. So...where's the <deleted> debris?

Doesn't this strike anybody as odd?

[GentlemanJim]

We did it many times in Vietnam hiding multiple F4's, F-16's... F104's together (4-6 Aircraft) Also completely hidden above and below B58 and B57's is strike forces. Later Militaries version of 767 also sucessfully hid multiple Aircraft making Radar think just Cargo Flight. It is possible for Tankers to real in and under Cutomers to keep them hidden until loads were compleed.

It could be done... Dangers is always there... Easier to be hidden if Lead Plane doesn't know who or what is in tow, for sure! The pilot who wants to be hidden has to be qualified!!

If its Dark...Night and your not Squaking and all systems disabled... It is possible to be in shadow until predetermind point is reached and break away. I is already a proven point that radar has missed you on your way out of South China Sea... At cruising Altitude one r two Pings are not going to be an issue as "Where the Hell did that come from"? Possibly they are going to reset controls and pass off as Junk reading... As after reset nothing is on sceen... They are not going to look at Reflective signals here because... Our Radar shows... "Nothing" and go back to Donuts and Coffee...

Or if you are being waited on (An Expected Guest... ) There could be a Second flight waiting to attach their leash and escort you to... where-ever...

So I am saying it is Possible to elude beening tracked... Seen... as remember this isn't in Daylight.. So even if someone heard you... They can't see and at this point.. no one knows to look, or that you are missing...

Well you must have hidden the F 16 well because it did not enter into service till 1980 ish. F5 yes, F9F yes F111 yes, F16 nope. Yes it can be easily done with people with the right skill-set.

In general, If we progress onto these scenarios, or even the suicide scenario that must have been planned meticulously and with much research in order to chose a path that would be away from prying eyes, then you have to bin the idea of this all being carried out by a Captain who did it because his wife just left him and his political hero just got jailed. None of these scenarios are a spur of the minute thing, they would take meticulous in depth planning.

Weong again Jim...

Being at the time my Logged Duty Station was in the Tactical Air Command (TAC) we had F16's, F100 A and B versions, F-4's Some (That somehow escaped being pulled out of active duty) B-58's SAC had most of the B-52's We also had yes... f-111's but I had no workings with them... If my Mom was still alive I would call her and have her locate Picture of me in Cockpit in Thailand Vin: 1966!! And get it to me so I and somehow meet you personally so you cannot comeup with "Being A PHOTOSHOPPED Photo.

Well I would love you to get the photo and show it, seriously! As a pilot I would find it fascinating as the F-16 prototype first flew in 1974 and did not come into military service until 1980. So how the F 16 could have been on operations in Vietnam 9 years before the prototype ever flew is something I would love to get to the bottom of. Is this time travel David?

[davidstipek]

Remember the only signal they would have gotten would have been a possible "Ping" I have already addressed if they did get something on Primary Radar... But the chances of them paying attention... pretty nill. And then if they got a "Ping" getting dismissed +80% because nothing on Scope.... Remember we not not talking Western or Europe here... also the time of the night... was anyone really paying attention.... Maylasia and Thialand werenot... not till they were repettedly asked to review Logs..?? Correct?

Since there was no elevated Alert Status here anywhere... who was really watching screen??? Don't think it was their Best... not at this time of the Morning...

Just conjuctures (Thoughts... ok?)

Edited April 3, 2014 by davidstipek

[sunshine51]

We did it many times in Vietnam hiding multiple F4's, F-16's... F104's together (4-6 Aircraft) Also completely hidden above and below B58 and B57's is strike forces. Later Militaries version of 767 also sucessfully hid multiple Aircraft making Radar think just Cargo Flight. It is possible for Tankers to real in and under Cutomers to keep them hidden until loads were compleed.

It could be done... Dangers is always there... Easier to be hidden if Lead Plane doesn't know who or what is in tow, for sure! The pilot who wants to be hidden has to be qualified!!

If its Dark...Night and your not Squaking and all systems disabled... It is possible to be in shadow until predetermind point is reached and break away. I is already a proven point that radar has missed you on your way out of South China Sea... At cruising Altitude one r two Pings are not going to be an issue as "Where the Hell did that come from"? Possibly they are going to reset controls and pass off as Junk reading... As after reset nothing is on sceen... They are not going to look at Reflective signals here because... Our Radar shows... "Nothing" and go back to Donuts and Coffee...

Or if you are being waited on (An Expected Guest... ) There could be a Second flight waiting to attach their leash and escort you to... where-ever...

So I am saying it is Possible to elude beening tracked... Seen... as remember this isn't in Daylight.. So even if someone heard you... They can't see and at this point.. no one knows to look, or that you are missing...

Well you must have hidden the F 16 well because it did not enter into service till 1980 ish. F5 yes, F9F yes F111 yes, F16 nope. Yes it can be easily done with people with the right skill-set.

In general, If we progress onto these scenarios, or even the suicide scenario that must have been planned meticulously and with much research in order to chose a path that would be away from prying eyes, then you have to bin the idea of this all being carried out by a Captain who did it because his wife just left him and his political hero just got jailed. None of these scenarios are a spur of the minute thing, they would take meticulous in depth planning.

Weong again Jim...

Being at the time my Logged Duty Station was in the Tactical Air Command (TAC) we had F16's, F100 A and B versions, F-4's Some (That somehow escaped being pulled out of active duty) B-58's SAC had most of the B-52's We also had yes... f-111's but I had no workings with them... If my Mom was still alive I would call her and have her locate Picture of me in Cockpit in Thailand Vin: 1966!! And get it to me so I and somehow meet you personally so you cannot comeup with "Being A PHOTOSHOPPED Photo.

Ding-Ding-Dong...BS! The Convair B-58 Hustler was never used in Vietnam as SAC

couldn't let it go from it's nuclear deterrant capability. That said there was a camouflage

scheme designed in case it was ever used and this design is the same as on the B-52D.

Besides had the B-58 been used, in low level attack, with a payload of fuel & conventional

weapons (dumb bombs) it's operational range would have been less than the F-105.

And sure as shooting rats with a .22....no F-16's ever flew in Vietnam during the war

simply because they were only on the drawing board at the time. Geez...get it together

man....or get out...this thread is about MH370....not about Vietnam.

Edited April 3, 2014 by sunshine51

[Chicog]

The forum whack job is excelling himself

Sent from my Lenovo S960 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Carib]

Someone is absolutely determined too make himself look like a fool. Sad really.

[P45Mustang]

Goodnight MH370.

It all looks pretty straightforward to me. Last words from Co-Pilot. Pilot was either in collaboration or taken out of action by Co-pilot.

Motive. ? Guesswork. Silent revenge for perceived injustice.

Location of Aircraft. ?

[Mike8677]

Very bad news..

[GentlemanJim]

Goodnight MH370.

It all looks pretty straightforward to me. Last words from Co-Pilot. Pilot was either in collaboration or taken out of action by Co-pilot.

Motive. ? Guesswork. Silent revenge for perceived injustice.

Location of Aircraft. ?

But they would be the normal last words. The guys were about to leave frequency and go on route. It was night time, they would say 'Goodnight', it is normal and polite. What is wrong with saying Goodnight?

[JesseFrank]

The forum whack job is excelling himself

Sent from my Lenovo S960 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

internet forum

Web definitions

An Internet forum, or message board, is an online discussion site where people pretend to be someone they are not.

[P45Mustang]

When you say Goodnight and nobody hears anything subsequently e.g. Good Morning, it's terminal.

BTW. I'm new on this thread, so condolences to all concerned.

[Tywais]

We did it many times in Vietnam hiding multiple F4's, F-16's... F104's together (4-6 Aircraft) Also completely hidden above and below B58 and B57's is strike forces. Later Militaries version of 767 also sucessfully hid multiple Aircraft making Radar think just Cargo Flight. It is possible for Tankers to real in and under Cutomers to keep them hidden until loads were compleed.

It could be done... Dangers is always there... Easier to be hidden if Lead Plane doesn't know who or what is in tow, for sure! The pilot who wants to be hidden has to be qualified!!

If its Dark...Night and your not Squaking and all systems disabled... It is possible to be in shadow until predetermind point is reached and break away. I is already a proven point that radar has missed you on your way out of South China Sea... At cruising Altitude one r two Pings are not going to be an issue as "Where the Hell did that come from"? Possibly they are going to reset controls and pass off as Junk reading... As after reset nothing is on sceen... They are not going to look at Reflective signals here because... Our Radar shows... "Nothing" and go back to Donuts and Coffee...

Or if you are being waited on (An Expected Guest... ) There could be a Second flight waiting to attach their leash and escort you to... where-ever...

So I am saying it is Possible to elude beening tracked... Seen... as remember this isn't in Daylight.. So even if someone heard you... They can't see and at this point.. no one knows to look, or that you are missing...

Well you must have hidden the F 16 well because it did not enter into service till 1980 ish. F5 yes, F9F yes F111 yes, F16 nope. Yes it can be easily done with people with the right skill-set.

In general, If we progress onto these scenarios, or even the suicide scenario that must have been planned meticulously and with much research in order to chose a path that would be away from prying eyes, then you have to bin the idea of this all being carried out by a Captain who did it because his wife just left him and his political hero just got jailed. None of these scenarios are a spur of the minute thing, they would take meticulous in depth planning.

Weong again Jim...

Being at the time my Logged Duty Station was in the Tactical Air Command (TAC) we had F16's, F100 A and B versions, F-4's Some (That somehow escaped being pulled out of active duty) B-58's SAC had most of the B-52's We also had yes... f-111's but I had no workings with them... If my Mom was still alive I would call her and have her locate Picture of me in Cockpit in Thailand Vin: 1966!! And get it to me so I and somehow meet you personally so you cannot comeup with "Being A PHOTOSHOPPED Photo.

Ding-Ding-Dong...BS! The Convair B-58 Hustler was never used in Vietnam as SAC

couldn't let it go from it's nuclear deterrant capability. That said there was a camouflage

scheme designed in case it was ever used and this design is the same as on the B-52D.

Besides had the B-58 been used, in low level attack, with a payload of fuel & conventional

weapons (dumb bombs) it's operational range would have been less than the F-105.

And sure as shooting rats with a .22....no F-16's ever flew in Vietnam during the war

simply because they were only on the drawing board at the time. Geez...get it together

man....or get out...this thread is about MH370....not about Vietnam.

I think some member has an overly active imagination sunshine51. I was in SAC during the Vietnam era stationed first in the US at a SAC missile silo base than Tan Son Nhut AFB in Saigon then Utapao SAC in Thailand. In other words, I had first hand experience with the livery at the time. The only f16's then would be from alcohol fueled imaginations.

I saw of course at Utapao B-52s, KC135 tankers, C-130 Hercules cargo/troop transport, C-141 Starlifter cargo, F4s (in the US), some SAR aircraft, some helicopters, even had a close view on the tarmac of a Lockheed U-2 reconnaissance plane (a beauty and tech heavy). There were F-111s, the lemons of the air, later on towards the tail of the war.

But this is getting off topic, though not much else to talk about without further information on the search.

[Tywais]

Goodnight MH370.

It all looks pretty straightforward to me. Last words from Co-Pilot. Pilot was either in collaboration or taken out of action by Co-pilot.

Motive. ? Guesswork. Silent revenge for perceived injustice.

Location of Aircraft. ?

But they would be the normal last words. The guys were about to leave frequency and go on route. It was night time, they would say 'Goodnight', it is normal and polite. What is wrong with saying Goodnight?

Very conventional communication protocol by professional pilots so no 'hidden' meaning in it at all. Sometimes I may even say 'have a g'day' and my aircraft call sign.

[Arma]

CNN is saying that a "major development" is going to be announced soon ... but who knows what CNN considers "major development"

[GentlemanJim]

The forum whack job is excelling himself

Sent from my Lenovo S960 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Yes, but I just want to say that in the absence of any reliable information his presence is ensuring I return to the thread. Laughter is good for health and soul

[F430murci]

Goodnight MH370.

It all looks pretty straightforward to me. Last words from Co-Pilot. Pilot was either in collaboration or taken out of action by Co-pilot.

Motive. ? Guesswork. Silent revenge for perceived injustice.

Location of Aircraft. ?

But they would be the normal last words. The guys were about to leave frequency and go on route. It was night time, they would say 'Goodnight', it is normal and polite. What is wrong with saying Goodnight?

Very conventional communication protocol by professional pilots so no 'hidden' meaning in it at all. Sometimes I may even say 'have a g'day' and my aircraft call sign.

Tywais:

What is your thought about radar blending capability of say two 777s at normal cruising speeds over long distance where one is unaware and assuming current military radar capability? How close, orientation, any wake or turbulence issue, easy to maintain and etc.? I am curious about topic.

[P45Mustang]

Goodnight MH370.

It all looks pretty straightforward to me. Last words from Co-Pilot. Pilot was either in collaboration or taken out of action by Co-pilot.

Motive. ? Guesswork. Silent revenge for perceived injustice.

Location of Aircraft. ?

But they would be the normal last words. The guys were about to leave frequency and go on route. It was night time, they would say 'Goodnight', it is normal and polite. What is wrong with saying Goodnight?

Very conventional communication protocol by professional pilots so no 'hidden' meaning in it at all. Sometimes I may even say 'have a g'day' and my aircraft call sign.

My point is 'Goodnight' as final communication before it disappears, together with no logical reason or evidence why the plane disappeared is highly coincidental.

Evidence also shows that sometime before the words Goodnight were said, somebody in the cockpit deliberately pressed a button that eliminated automatic communications between the plane and the ground.

The plane did not say "Good Morning" as it entered Vietnamese air space.

[Tywais]

Goodnight MH370.

It all looks pretty straightforward to me. Last words from Co-Pilot. Pilot was either in collaboration or taken out of action by Co-pilot.

Motive. ? Guesswork. Silent revenge for perceived injustice.

Location of Aircraft. ?

But they would be the normal last words. The guys were about to leave frequency and go on route. It was night time, they would say 'Goodnight', it is normal and polite. What is wrong with saying Goodnight?

Very conventional communication protocol by professional pilots so no 'hidden' meaning in it at all. Sometimes I may even say 'have a g'day' and my aircraft call sign.

Tywais:

What is your thought about radar blending capability of say two 777s at normal cruising speeds over long distance where one is unaware and assuming current military radar capability? How close, orientation, any wake or turbulence issue, easy to maintain and etc.? I am curious about topic.

I would have to say very difficult unless they use in flight radar and air-air communication which would probably give away their location. If visibility is good, and both aircraft are in communication with each other, that is collaborating, formation flying may be possible. But the other aircraft not aware would be highly unlikely due to collision avoidance radar systems on board (pretty sure 777s have it).

Wing tip vortices, that is wake turbulence can be very severe with a heavily loaded, large aircraft and would have to really be thought out. These vortices do not necessarily just flow straight out the back but depending on winds at altitude can 'drift' sideways or downwards so you can't rely upon avoiding them.

When I was in flight training we were trained how to deal with 'heavies' when flying behind them or landing after one. Landing protocol is to land after the touch down point and keep high of the heavy's path as it is the lift that creates the vortices. The moment lift is gone, they are gone. Also part of the training is to understand the drift aspects of them. If you are at an airfield with parallel runways and landing at or near the same time as a heavy on a parallel runway and there is a crosswind, that mini tornado can drift over onto your runway. I've seen small aircraft nearly flip over entering one.

Basically, I can't see it unless military training and both aircraft are part of the configuration, that is collaborating.

[P45Mustang]

Is there a more plausible theory than the Co-pilot turned left and dumped it?

[khaosai]

Hi guys,

I don't know anything about radar blending. That's not my area of expertise. Some interesting discussions nonetheless about radar and wake turbulence.

Personally I don't think the aircraft shadowed another aircraft as I trust the information so far provided about the satellite pings having the aircraft route south bound.

The traffic collision avoidance system is linked to the transponder which allows both aircraft to talk to each other and resolve any potential conflict. If the transponder is off then it does not work.

Hand flown formation flying at night would be a challenge due to the wake turbulence but being 500ft directly below the other aircraft will prevent the effects of wake turbulence I think.

Wake turbulence Is caused by the airflow spilling over the wing tip. It therefore is based on aircraft wing span and will cause two cylindrical shapes of air to flow from the wing tip rear wards and downwards of which the rate will vary. The effects of wake are worst close to the ground but also more pronounced with heavy aircraft. It does occur at high altitude too. I experienced the autopilot on a B744 disconnect due to a wake encounter generated by an Airbus 330.

On the navigation display you have a wind direction and speed readout so you could use that to gauge approximately where the wake turbulence was going to be. Fly slightly upwind until directly below the other aircraft then manoeuvre into position.

Unlikely scenario, but the tools are all there to achieve it and would be more than manageable by someone with experience in aviation and familiarity with the B777.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Tywais
Cleaned up quotes