Land Crackdown Targets Thai Shareholders

[thailand_tom]

its funny..i subscribed to a real estate news letter months ago to have them send me information about properties in puket and pattaya..and since the news about the changes in land ownership i must have recieved a dozen e-mails from them..telling everyone to relax..it will blow over in a few months..that things have come to a stand still for now..but.its too late for me..i was going to spend more money here in thailand..now..no way..keep your land..and i hope no one else buys here..i will spend my money somewhere else..since thailand doesn't need it..does thailand think their the only country we can live in or retire too..there are hundreds of pukets and pattayas around the world..with cheap land..eager for foreign investment..thailand just cut off its nose to spite its face..wonder why the p.m. is having everyone learning english..since they don't need foreigners..why did they have to go to japan for financing of there subway..why did the only motorcycle company here go out of business..not from lack of customers..is their any car manufactering here..electronics..or is there main business... foreign tourists...the same people thailand does not need..

[BKK90210]

This’s from “Pattaya Forum”

Immigration Are Arresting Farang House Developers, (Visiting building sites and checking work permits)

“I was having a cup of tea this morning with the farang who built my house and he received a call from another farang builder warning him not to go anywhere near his building site. Apperently there is a squad of immigration police going round the building sites in Pattaya and the surrounding areas and arresting any farangs they find on site who don't have work permits.

I have no idea how accurate or true this report is - at the moment just hearsay based on a phone call from someone I know of, but have never met.

If it is true, it's a new and scary development in the land crackdown.

Seems difficult to believe that it was instigated by the land office. More likely a local Thai developer may have been mixing it down at immigration. But who knows?

Anyone else heard about this?”........

.......“I may be naive, but I can't see how farang developers could get a work permit - after all its a prohibited profession for foreigners, isn't it?

In conversation this morning, it was evident that there are plenty of farangs doing this business who do not have work permits - some are even on retirement visas. They would argue that they are not really working, just paying Thai contractor to build for them - but I suspect the authorities may have a different spin on that.”

The thai government may have started it, but seems like the thai developers are trying to finish it off for them?

Any thoughts

Edited June 13, 2006 by BKK90210

[Thaible]

I was here 20 years ago and didn't see Thais of any walk of life (other than locals and chinese speculators) wanting to live on Phuket. Can you really see any development having taken place without foreigners? and why wasn't there any development here 10-15 years ago.

The island could still be a backwater without all the foreign investment and Phuket covered in rubber trees.

There's hundreds of Thai developers now that can easily replace farangs. And the money comes from tourists visiting, not poor Western retirees moving here permanently.

[Thaible]

Excuse me - so my Thai wife and I should not be allowed to buy our home our house the place we bring up our child and then later let our child have it for her own children- grow up and start living in the real world or do you want Thailand to stay undeveloped, poor etc - i bet your a rich Thai who could nopt care less about your fellow poor thais unlike the wonderful normal Thais who livein our village (all quite poor but most happy to have me as a forang amongst them with my Thai wife)

So give your Thai wife 100% ownership. If you don't plan on divorcing her anytime soon in order to find a younger wife, it shouldn't be a problem.

[jdinasia]

and cover yourself with a 30 year renewable lease!

[Sir Burr]

It seems to me that they either have to:-

a. Not enforce the law across the board (as they did before).

b. Enforce the law across the board.

It is impractical, even unfair, to enforce it with one group of farang (developers) and not with others (people who just want to own their own house).

[Pattayatony]

its funny..i subscribed to a real estate news letter months ago to have them send me information about properties in puket and pattaya..and since the news about the changes in land ownership i must have recieved a dozen e-mails from them..telling everyone to relax..it will blow over in a few months..that things have come to a stand still for now..but.its too late for me..i was going to spend more money here in thailand..now..no way..keep your land..and i hope no one else buys here..i will spend my money somewhere else..since thailand doesn't need it..does thailand think their the only country we can live in or retire too..there are hundreds of pukets and pattayas around the world..with cheap land..eager for foreign investment..thailand just cut off its nose to spite its face..wonder why the p.m. is having everyone learning english..since they don't need foreigners..why did they have to go to japan for financing of there subway..why did the only motorcycle company here go out of business..not from lack of customers..is their any car manufactering here..electronics..or is there main business... foreign tourists...the same people thailand does not need..

Tom I argree with you 100%

Why should foreigners buy real estate in Thailand when they have:

No Rights.

Cant own land in your name.

Your visa can be cancelled at any time.

The Govt can change the rules at any time.

Much better and safer to buy real estate in you home country.

[walterthai]

Excuse me - so my Thai wife and I should not be allowed to buy our home our house the place we bring up our child and then later let our child have it for her own children- grow up and start living in the real world or do you want Thailand to stay undeveloped, poor etc - i bet your a rich Thai who could nopt care less about your fellow poor thais unlike the wonderful normal Thais who livein our village (all quite poor but most happy to have me as a forang amongst them with my Thai wife)

So give your Thai wife 100% ownership. If you don't plan on divorcing her anytime soon in order to find a younger wife, it shouldn't be a problem.

she has 100% ownership and I have 100% of our condeo we would love to just have everything 50/50 but outdated Thai laws dont allow that - is that ok with you

[Ricardo]

I was here 20 years ago and didn't see Thais of any walk of life (other than locals and chinese speculators) wanting to live on Phuket. Can you really see any development having taken place without foreigners? and why wasn't there any development here 10-15 years ago.

The island could still be a backwater without all the foreign investment and Phuket covered in rubber trees.

There's hundreds of Thai developers now that can easily replace farangs.

Trans. why let any farangs profit, now that the risks have been taken by them, and we can step in ourselves? Not that I would necessarily accept that all the developments in Phuket were farang-inspired/financed.

And the money comes from tourists visiting, not poor Western retirees moving here permanently.

So if Western retirees who move here are all poor, how can they pay B5-million or more per property, to make rich these Thai developers you seem to care so much about ?

Thaible, from reading several of your posts now, I get the impression that you don't much like us farangs being here. What are your real reasons for this ? Did you once get turned-down for a visa for another country, or what ? I'd genuinely be interested to know.

Or is your grasp of Economics-101 really so shaky that you don't understand how foreigners vastly benefit the Thai economy and many Thais of all social-classes ?

[KhunMarco]

I was here 20 years ago and didn't see Thais of any walk of life (other than locals and chinese speculators) wanting to live on Phuket. Can you really see any development having taken place without foreigners? and why wasn't there any development here 10-15 years ago.

The island could still be a backwater without all the foreign investment and Phuket covered in rubber trees.

There's hundreds of Thai developers now that can easily replace farangs.

Trans. why let any farangs profit, now that the risks have been taken by them, and we can step in ourselves? Not that I would necessarily accept that all the developments in Phuket were farang-inspired/financed.

And the money comes from tourists visiting, not poor Western retirees moving here permanently.

So if Western retirees who move here are all poor, how can they pay B5-million or more per property, to make rich these Thai developers you seem to care so much about ?

Thaible, from reading several of your posts now, I get the impression that you don't much like us farangs being here. What are your real reasons for this ? Did you once get turned-down for a visa for another country, or what ? I'd genuinely be interested to know.

Or is your grasp of Economics-101 really so shaky that you don't understand how foreigners vastly benefit the Thai economy and many Thais of all social-classes ?

Yup the poor guy is a bit confused eh, first we are all evil millionairs ready to take over Thailand, now we are a bunch of homeless searching for a cardbox...rofl.

I can smell the envy from here. Sorry dude, better luck next life

[Heng]

Or is your grasp of Economics-101 really so shaky that you don't understand how foreigners vastly benefit the Thai economy and many Thais of all social-classes ?

It'd be interesting to see what the actual figures are. One mostly only hears estimates along the lines of "vast" and "incredible," which is totally understandable as a lot of folks want to feel they are truly contributing to their adopted nation, still feel strong home country patriotism, and/or want to feel indispensable in their Thai-foreign relationships ('if we all break up with our local spouses and go home, not only will the fridges be empty of steaks and beer, the entire economy may collapse').

[LivinLOS]

All a politician running for office has to do is show the public the average Phuket property price versus the rest of Thailand, and watch how fast they will win the election.

And all the opposition needs to do is show the average Thai wage and income on Phuket compared to the average anywhere else !!!

Phuket (samui / even patts) is one of the richest provinces in the kingdom precisely becuase of its foriegners coming and developing..

Sad to say but you cant even find a high quality Thai villa developer even in the middle of this boom.. Start to discuss home automation systems, media rooms and projection theaters, whole house audio, camera security systems, even rainwater collection and filtration (to solve the Thai water boards problems), etc etc etc and for every one of these tasks you need to go and talk to a farang run company !!! Thats having looked long and hard for Thai alternatives.

The entire marine lesuire industry of marinas, pleasure craft, sailing schools, etc employing training and improving the lives of normal Thais is all farang started, invested, and created from nothing.. Its not 'rich farangs' coming here and buying everything up its the fact that without an uneven playing field the local population cant compete in providing these services.

It also looks to me that the farang based businesses are the most keen to pay fair real wages and hire people irrespective of if thier skin is a shade darker or thier nose a touch wider.. Look at a business like Yachtpro on Phuket, they have hired and trained thai staff now up to instructor level and started them in professions with carear structure and advancement opportunity.. The loyalty and way the staff speak about thier employer is unlike I have ever heard when you hear of staff working for thai hotel chains or other business where low wages and little job security is the order of the day, no one screws 'poor thais' harder than the rich thias IMHO. Which form of business was most likely to hold its staff through the lean times after the tsunami and which just fired and sent them away ??

Theres a whole load of reasons but the farang scapegoat is more laughable than anything else.. Just a new twist on the blame the burmese slant thats commonplace.

[Deadcert]

Its all very easy to explain, Thailand has made a deal with the Devil, where the Devil is represented by foriegners and the money they bring into the country, and now it has there is no going back unless of course you want that investment to go else where.

I for one agree with a certain amount of nationalist sentiment, I know the UK could do with a big dose of the same, but I wish that the Thai's in general would't just except the notion that all foriegners are their to exploit them.

[Anon999]

For a start the Thais living in the UK would be really pleased to find out they can no longer own their expensive land or their companies, if that was imposed in the UK. Not to mention all the other closed mind thoughts that have been expressed.

Maybe he can enlighten us all on what his real agenda is, bearing in mind that Thais do not own the majority of the wealth and much of the land in Thailand, it's owned by the Chinese. Many of those having been welcomed by Thailand in the days of Mao and who subsequently changed their Chinese name to a Thai name. However, I won't hold my breath waiting for an answer that is either constructive or logical.

Anon999

It's pretty obvious that Thais want Thailand to stay with its own people.

Otherwise, these Thai-majority ownership laws would not even exist in the first place, and farangs would not have to find legal loopholes to explolit in order to own land. I'm shocked that so many people are surprised about me stating the obvious.

But feel free to ignore me and keep buying land at your own risk. If you think I do not represent the majority, feel free to ask the millions of Thais surrounding you that are not real estate developers what they think. Oh yea, that excludes the relatives of your Thai wife whom will never tell you the truth.

These legal loopholes will eventually be closed. It's a matter of when, not if. All a politician running for office has to do is show the public the average Phuket property price versus the rest of Thailand, and watch how fast they will win the election.

Thaible your post came immediately after mine and you studiosly ignored what I had said. I guess there is no chance whatsoever of getting any straight answer from you.

Furthermore none of my Thai friends in the North East have a problem with me buying land if it was possible. Some ask me when will I buy a house, not knowing that it is impossible for me to buy land and are surprised when I tell them so.

Maybe it would be a good idea for you to do some market research before making sweeping statements.

Edited June 14, 2006 by Anon999

[bquick]

Thailand has Gone Sour. The Thai facade is so weak now.

The chinese-thai own the country, media and anything of value now and use the media to control the Thai-Thai popultion and it's important to keep for the chinese to keep Thai people dumb.

Sad to see the country fooled like that.

I'm leaving with most of my lifes savings wasted in thailand but i've learned to not care same as the thai people.

Thailand as a country is a trick. You foreigners are all the marks. It's just time before you lose your money and feeling here too.

This is my last post. Good Luck and i hope you all get out with out too much damage. You'll need it with all the chinese tricksters here out to screw you over any way they can.

[Anon999]

There's hundreds of Thai developers now that can easily replace farangs. And the money comes from tourists visiting, not poor Western retirees moving here permanently.

Tell us all Thaible, what makes you such an expert on the wealth of retired farangs liviing in Thailand?

[Anon999]

Thailand has Gone Sour. The Thai facade is so weak now.

The chinese-thai own the country, media and anything of value now and use the media to control the Thai-Thai popultion and it's important to keep for the chinese to keep Thai people dumb.

Sad to see the country fooled like that.

I'm leaving with most of my lifes savings wasted in thailand but i've learned to not care same as the thai people.

Thailand as a country is a trick. You foreigners are all the marks. It's just time before you lose your money and feeling here too.

This is my last post. Good Luck and i hope you all get out with out too much damage. You'll need it with all the chinese tricksters here out to screw you over any way they can.

There are tricksters of every nationality on earth. FULL STOP! So what's new? However, I have a number of ethnic Chinese and Thai/Chinese friends and furthmore my wife was also Thai/Chinese, so before making generalisations it would be a good idea to keep quiet!

[simcity]

Thailand has Gone Sour. The Thai facade is so weak now.

The chinese-thai own the country, media and anything of value now and use the media to control the Thai-Thai popultion and it's important to keep for the chinese to keep Thai people dumb.

Sad to see the country fooled like that.

I'm leaving with most of my lifes savings wasted in thailand but i've learned to not care same as the thai people.

Thailand as a country is a trick. You foreigners are all the marks. It's just time before you lose your money and feeling here too.

This is my last post. Good Luck and i hope you all get out with out too much damage. You'll need it with all the chinese tricksters here out to screw you over any way they can.

There are tricksters of every nationality on earth. FULL STOP! So what's new? However, I have a number of ethnic Chinese and Thai/Chinese friends and furthmore my wife was also Thai/Chinese, so before making generalisations it would be a good idea to keep quiet!

Many parts of the world have put themselves in high gear to achieve so much in so little time!

I agree with bquick , religion and power do like to keep a illiterate and placid population for different reason !

I feel the same , Thailand is lagging behind ! the power of thailand are the thai/chinese, they are my friends to but in the end so much will be lost .

I do not see a bright future coming for Thailand in the next few years !

But still live here and enjoy it .

[Martin]

'simcity' finished post #289 with:

"I do not see a bright future coming for Thailand in the next few years !

But still live here and enjoy it ."

Part of me agrees with his first sentence, but another part of me feels that Thailand will muddle through quite well---differently from all other countries, agreed.

As to the Chinese, I know about triads and so forth. But, also, some of the finest, most ethical, businessmen that I have known were Chinese.

Chinese ethics at their best are supreme.

What comes through in this thread, and many others, is that Thai society still has a lot of 'cohering' to do.

This 'foreigners trying to speculate in our land' thread has been about Resort Thailand. That is very different from (and collectively only about one-third as important as) Industrial Thailand. And Agricultural Thailand is twice as important again as Industrial Thailand.

And I have a feeling that unglamorous, unluxorious, problem-ridden though it is, Agricultural Thailand will prove to be a base of stability and sustainability and Thailand will muddle through, to the envy of many.

I, too, hope to live here and enjoy it.

[highdiver]

All a politician running for office has to do is show the public the average Phuket property price versus the rest of Thailand, and watch how fast they will win the election.

And all the opposition needs to do is show the average Thai wage and income on Phuket compared to the average anywhere else !!!

Phuket (samui / even patts) is one of the richest provinces in the kingdom precisely becuase of its foriegners coming and developing..

Sad to say but you cant even find a high quality Thai villa developer even in the middle of this boom.. Start to discuss home automation systems, media rooms and projection theaters, whole house audio, camera security systems, even rainwater collection and filtration (to solve the Thai water boards problems), etc etc etc and for every one of these tasks you need to go and talk to a farang run company !!! Thats having looked long and hard for Thai alternatives.

The entire marine lesuire industry of marinas, pleasure craft, sailing schools, etc employing training and improving the lives of normal Thais is all farang started, invested, and created from nothing.. Its not 'rich farangs' coming here and buying everything up its the fact that without an uneven playing field the local population cant compete in providing these services.

It also looks to me that the farang based businesses are the most keen to pay fair real wages and hire people irrespective of if thier skin is a shade darker or thier nose a touch wider.. Look at a business like Yachtpro on Phuket, they have hired and trained thai staff now up to instructor level and started them in professions with carear structure and advancement opportunity.. The loyalty and way the staff speak about thier employer is unlike I have ever heard when you hear of staff working for thai hotel chains or other business where low wages and little job security is the order of the day, no one screws 'poor thais' harder than the rich thias IMHO. Which form of business was most likely to hold its staff through the lean times after the tsunami and which just fired and sent them away ??

Theres a whole load of reasons but the farang scapegoat is more laughable than anything else.. Just a new twist on the blame the burmese slant thats commonplace.

BRAVO!!!!!!

The BEST respopnse yet

[Thaible]

The entire marine lesuire industry of marinas, pleasure craft, sailing schools, etc employing training and improving the lives of normal Thais is all farang started, invested, and created from nothing.. Its not 'rich farangs' coming here and buying everything up its the fact that without an uneven playing field the local population cant compete in providing these services.

It also looks to me that the farang based businesses are the most keen to pay fair real wages and hire people irrespective of if thier skin is a shade darker or thier nose a touch wider.. Look at a business like Yachtpro on Phuket, they have hired and trained thai staff now up to instructor level and started them in professions with carear structure and advancement opportunity.. The loyalty and way the staff speak about thier employer is unlike I have ever heard when you hear of staff working for thai hotel chains or other business where low wages and little job security is the order of the day, no one screws 'poor thais' harder than the rich thias IMHO. Which form of business was most likely to hold its staff through the lean times after the tsunami and which just fired and sent them away ??

So along this line of thinking, Thailand should sell all of its land to the US and have its citizens become servants to the Americans living here.

I have a slightly better idea - howabout we encourage REAL investors such as Toyota to build factories here that employ hundreds of Thai people to create goods that can actually be exported to the rest of the world, while learning technical skills so Thailand can create its own car company someday. And we keep the property to ourselves to prevent inflation and misallocation of resources to wasteful speculation, such as what happened before the 1997 crash. Even farangs here can't afford to live in their home countries, and now they want to spread this speculation contagion to our country.

Edited June 14, 2006 by Thaible

[Thaible]

So are you saying that thai's are really chinese and indians as they own all the prime real estate in Thailand

True, but Thailand has realized this mistake and is now passing laws to prevent losing all of its land to foreigners.

Additionally, these groups actually do invest in Thailand by creating sizable businesses which employ Thais. Most farangs, on the other hand, think that hiring a gardener for their new house is "investing". These groups also show their love of Thai people by actually learning to speak the language, while very few Westerners can survive without their girlfriends as translators.

[LivinLOS]

I dont know if 'gun powder' would be my idea of something that developed the world.. Controlled, subjigated and destroyed I will give you but its hardly a very creative thing..

However China has been an area of the world that had independant civilisation and ideas, medidative and creativity etc.. Thier insularity and closing of themselves off to the world to trade and later via Mao etc seems to me a mistake but hindsight is always 20 / 20..

[LaoPo]

The Chinese have always being noted for cleverness, intelligence and wisdom but foreigners are noted for being loud, demanding and having an exagerated opinion of themselves.

There are as many stupid Chinese as there are stupid Thai or foreigners as well. You are generalizing and an intelligent Chinese woulnd't say the things you are trying to believe us, assuming you're Chinese.

Oh, and...I'm married to an itelligent Chinese lady (non-Thai)

LaoPo

Edited June 14, 2006 by LaoPo

[imleaving]

I was here 20 years ago and didn't see Thais of any walk of life (other than locals and chinese speculators) wanting to live on Phuket. Can you really see any development having taken place without foreigners? and why wasn't there any development here 10-15 years ago.

The island could still be a backwater without all the foreign investment and Phuket covered in rubber trees.

There's hundreds of Thai developers now that can easily replace farangs. And the money comes from tourists visiting, not poor Western retirees moving here permanently.

I must be one of those poor pensioners who cant and don’t contribute much to Thailand. We started considering places to retire about 2 years ago. We had short listed Thailand having come on holiday a number of times. So 6 months ago we found a house we liked for 20 million bart. We wanted to make sure so negotiated with the owner to rent it for 1 year at 1.4 million baht paid up front and then if we decided it was really for us to buy with rent deducted from price. The owner (Thai Chinese) told us not to worry just buy through company like everyone else. So weve checked and talked to a few lawyers. They all said it would be fine but we had our doubts so hung on. Having lived here for just over 6 months and been cheated in many minor ways together with risks we’ve decided to take our $ 10,000 a month combined pension and do what most of our friends have done. That is buy in Portugal or Spain.

So by the end of our first year we will have spent here we will have spent about 4 million bart on rent, maid’s salary, driver’s salary, car and other things. Not a great loss and one we can definitely afford and less than our annual pension. On this subject I have noticed the few Thaïs we’ve met have all told us we should not pay our maid 10,000 bath a month since they only pay about 4,000. We asked them when they were so rich they did not want to pay a decent amount. They just think were stupid. So much for Thaïs helping Thaïs.

So well be setting up our retirement home elsewhere. No we don’t want to rent since we want a place we can make our home and the 30 year lease is also something we are not prepared to do. We want to leave some of our capital to our kids. Sad since without all the apparent problems Thailand would be a good choice. We thought of 40 million bath option but it just is not worth it. Ive been following Thai visa`as a guest and thanks to all for all warnings. You’ve probably saved us a small fortune.

If wed decided to retire here we would probably have spent at least 3 million a year on maids salaries, living well. That I reckon is at least 20times average yearly wage here. But your probably right Thailand is so rich is does not need our money and poor Portugal or spain could probably do with it more.

First and last posting probably.

[Rooo]

Thaible & Chinachampion, the only regret foreigners have got, is you have both have taken the trouble , to learn the english language.What utter BS you both talk.

[Arkady]

"Thanks for the interesting and detailed response on elite. I was trying to get as up to date as possible on elite.

Now here's another aspect - a piece of land near Don Muang was "appropriated" from the Royal Thai Air Force (RTAF) supposedly by and/or for elite. This land was used for 30+ years before (since the early 70s) as a public recreation area with the full agreement of the Air Force. It was in use by the general public every day.

When elite came along, offering golf "holidays", this land was "taken over" by elite or taken back

by RTAF - to make a golf course - supposedly for elite card holders. Thailand really needs another golf course - right ? The land was closed for public use - the golf course has not been built - yet !!!

Does anyone believe this land will revert to it's use as a public recreation facilty - or will it now be turned into condos ? And who gains ? I wonder ?"

I think that it may have been one of the two existing airforce golf courses that was going to be spruced up. It was probably just jawboning and I would doubt that any change of ownership or any real development plans took place. Thaksin also forced the army to agree to hand over beach front land south of Hua Hin which is currently run as a low grade resort by the army to build a links golf course for Elite Card. This was officially abandoned a few months later due to lack of funding. The army probably politely said put up or shut up.

[jdinasia]

Pick up a phone ... call your lawyer ... have him arrange the purchase of a house in Denver ... then poof ... go and enjoy your vsa you may have to leave every 6 months ... but hey

[KhunMarco]

Thaible & Chinachampion, the only regret foreigners have got, is you have both have taken the trouble , to learn the english language.What utter BS you both talk.

If you don't like it you know where you can go. In your picture you are a pussy so nobody can listen to you. me-ow Mr pussy. Ha ha ha

It's you who talk BS together. then when i talk honestly you get angry because it is not the thinking in your little circle. Thailand is for Thai People. It doesn't matter about where the ancestors came from. In america all the african americans have ancestors from africa and they are the best in america's millitary and america's millitary is still the best in the world for now anyway.

America does not give Thai people freely a visa go in but Thailand gives freely all americans into Thailand.

If most Thai people cannot go to america then how can they buy land there. they cannot. so it is you who are talking BS.

You are the proof of superior chinese brain

[BKK90210]

Pick up a phone ... call your lawyer ... have him arrange the purchase of a house in Denver ... then poof ... go and enjoy your vsa you may have to leave every 6 months ... but hey

Yeh...But can you pick it up for 3-4 mil bths? , land may be and oh don't forget to bring your own teepee then. What kind of a visa run will this be?....an unforgetable one for sure!