Land Crackdown Targets Thai Shareholders

[jdinasia]

hmmm you could buy a condo in Denver for 3-4M ... a house outlying Denver ... well I have a place on an acre of land ... 3 bedrooms ... nice place ... I'll sell for well it is negotiable And at that I can have the paperwork sent here and conduct the Biz here

Note to Mods ... no I am NOT selling the house in Aurora ... it is paid off and has tenants ... one of my ways to hang out here in Th

Edited June 14, 2006 by jdinasia

[BKK90210]

A nice 3 bds house for this price? You got to be kidding!

It has to be in the middle of no where that you have to dig your way out in the winter, or a pre-granite era, or one of those shabby chic, perhaps?

[jdinasia]

reread that

[BKK90210]

Aurora is located at 39°41′45″N, 104°48′29″W, As of the 2000 Census, the city population was 276,900. Ney…too small for me.

But you could buy mine here in Seattle, 3000+sf W/ views to die for, I’m currently selling. If anyone interested… pm me. Your own chanote folks!

[jdinasia]

we are way off topic here ... but ...

yes a Thai can buy my house in Aurora ... (alot more than 3-4M) and it is Metro Denver .. so not too small ... or a condo ... or whatever ... sure would make getting a visa to the USA alot easier

No it aint for sale

There have been serious complaints over the years that the USA sold off the West Coast to the Japanese in the 80's ... but we never changed the laws ...

anyways ... things are fine just the way they are today here in Thailand .. i would love to see it change ... but if it doesn't it won't change my being here

[Ricardo]

Yes a very good idea to keep quiet if you know what is good for you.

Trans. I don't have a good case to argue - so I'll threaten instead. Is that how a civilised person thinks ?

True, but Thailand has realized this mistake and is now passing laws to prevent losing all of its land to foreigners.

Did Thailand ever permit foreigners to own land here ?

These groups also show their love of Thai people by actually learning to speak the language, while very few Westerners can survive without their girlfriends as translators.

I agree, learning the basics shows respect for our host-culture, which is why I learned basic-Swedish in Sweden & French for Africa & basic-Arabic for the Middle-East, and am now slowly picking-up a little Thai. Hope you're willing to do the same, as/when you live abroad.

The Chinese have always being noted for cleverness, intelligence and wisdom but foreigners are noted for being loud, demanding and having an exagerated opinion of themselves. Who first invented gunpowder afterall. The Chinese long before foreigners. Without gunpowder the whole world would not be developing.

Go back a hundred thousand years, following the latest maps showing human-migrations, and you'll find that we were all (dark-skinned) Africans. So we are ALL the same, Thai or Chinese or farang or whatever.

Personally I think it is a basic mistake to see Chinese or Thais or any nationality as anything other-than human beings , in all our wonderful variety. You have to liberate yourself from these culturally-imposed predjudices, which only serve the political power-structures, and their controllers, by keeping you ignorant and easier to manipulate.

It is always easier to get people to make war upon other people, if they are merely 'gooks', 'whiteys' or 'heathen' and hence sub-human. Don't fall into this trap !

Edited June 15, 2006 by Ricardo

[Arkady]

I was here 20 years ago and didn't see Thais of any walk of life (other than locals and chinese speculators) wanting to live on Phuket. Can you really see any development having taken place without foreigners? and why wasn't there any development here 10-15 years ago.

The island could still be a backwater without all the foreign investment and Phuket covered in rubber trees.

There's hundreds of Thai developers now that can easily replace farangs. And the money comes from tourists visiting, not poor Western retirees moving here permanently.

I must be one of those poor pensioners who cant and don’t contribute much to Thailand. We started considering places to retire about 2 years ago. We had short listed Thailand having come on holiday a number of times. So 6 months ago we found a house we liked for 20 million bart. We wanted to make sure so negotiated with the owner to rent it for 1 year at 1.4 million baht paid up front and then if we decided it was really for us to buy with rent deducted from price. The owner (Thai Chinese) told us not to worry just buy through company like everyone else. So weve checked and talked to a few lawyers. They all said it would be fine but we had our doubts so hung on. Having lived here for just over 6 months and been cheated in many minor ways together with risks we’ve decided to take our $ 10,000 a month combined pension and do what most of our friends have done. That is buy in Portugal or Spain.

So by the end of our first year we will have spent here we will have spent about 4 million bart on rent, maid’s salary, driver’s salary, car and other things. Not a great loss and one we can definitely afford and less than our annual pension. On this subject I have noticed the few Thaïs we’ve met have all told us we should not pay our maid 10,000 bath a month since they only pay about 4,000. We asked them when they were so rich they did not want to pay a decent amount. They just think were stupid. So much for Thaïs helping Thaïs.

So well be setting up our retirement home elsewhere. No we don’t want to rent since we want a place we can make our home and the 30 year lease is also something we are not prepared to do. We want to leave some of our capital to our kids. Sad since without all the apparent problems Thailand would be a good choice. We thought of 40 million bath option but it just is not worth it. Ive been following Thai visa`as a guest and thanks to all for all warnings. You’ve probably saved us a small fortune.

If wed decided to retire here we would probably have spent at least 3 million a year on maids salaries, living well. That I reckon is at least 20times average yearly wage here. But your probably right Thailand is so rich is does not need our money and poor Portugal or spain could probably do with it more.

First and last posting probably.

I feel sad reading about your disappointed plans to retire here. Thailand could create a good niche in competing for retired baby boomers from the West and Japan. They could modify the redundant 40 million baht rule to allow ownership of up to a rai of land for a total investment of say 10-20 million including the investment in the house and land, combined with a retirement visa for those over 50. This would attract a lot of the kind of people they want to come here and spend their pensions and would not cause excessive speculation or environmental problems. Most people planning retirement obviously want to own their home and you are right to avoid a 30 year lease or a corporate structure (unless you really want to run a business). An easy and unthreatening start would be to increase foreign ownership of condos to 100% now that it is proved that 49% has not caused any problems. No one in government looks at how to position Thai tourism to be competitive and the Tourism Ministry and TAT are just sinecures for politicians and well connected civil servants to spend a lot of money travelling around the world first class and syphon off money from advertising budgets. Fortunately for them Thailand has enough attractions and an efficient private sector hospitality industry to bring in the numbers in spite of their worst efforts.

[Tornado]

I was here 20 years ago and didn't see Thais of any walk of life (other than locals and chinese speculators) wanting to live on Phuket. Can you really see any development having taken place without foreigners? and why wasn't there any development here 10-15 years ago.

The island could still be a backwater without all the foreign investment and Phuket covered in rubber trees.

There's hundreds of Thai developers now that can easily replace farangs. And the money comes from tourists visiting, not poor Western retirees moving here permanently.

That to me is typical of Thai thinking.

Phuket for instance was nothing until the foreign retiree / sexpat moved here and told his friends and started web sites promoting the region. Phuket.com is owned by expats, phuketland.com owned by expats. It was foriegners like that and many others, that put the region on the map in the first place.

NOW you say they can be replaced?? A typical Thai way of taking back control of what the foreign market started. Without all of us here in Phuket, "your" little Island would be a 300 baht a night bungalow back water. (although I did like it like that)

The money does not come from Tourists, another misguided remark!. Real Esate in Phuket is major business and that is why the governmemnt is trying to take back control.

The Thai beaurocrats have been walking the dog for many years, and now they are shortening the leash so the Thai people can take what we all started. It shows the mentality of the dicatorship that is rife througout the country. It would not happen in any normal foreign country.

After my nearly 10 years here, I am also selling all of my assets and getting the hel_l out. Sick of the Thai attitude like the one you display here.

I would rather burn everything I own, that I worked so hard for, than let it go to some undeserving

person. Whilst I was working 16 hours a day to start my company the person who might inherit it, was probably sleeping or hanging out with his meer noi... (generalisations seems to be ok for you, so there you go).

I also have a footnote to this story that I am currently writing - coming soon.

[Tornado]

The entire marine lesuire industry of marinas, pleasure craft, sailing schools, etc employing training and improving the lives of normal Thais is all farang started, invested, and created from nothing.. Its not 'rich farangs' coming here and buying everything up its the fact that without an uneven playing field the local population cant compete in providing these services.

It also looks to me that the farang based businesses are the most keen to pay fair real wages and hire people irrespective of if thier skin is a shade darker or thier nose a touch wider.. Look at a business like Yachtpro on Phuket, they have hired and trained thai staff now up to instructor level and started them in professions with carear structure and advancement opportunity.. The loyalty and way the staff speak about thier employer is unlike I have ever heard when you hear of staff working for thai hotel chains or other business where low wages and little job security is the order of the day, no one screws 'poor thais' harder than the rich thias IMHO. Which form of business was most likely to hold its staff through the lean times after the tsunami and which just fired and sent them away ??

So along this line of thinking, Thailand should sell all of its land to the US and have its citizens become servants to the Americans living here.

I have a slightly better idea - howabout we encourage REAL investors such as Toyota to build factories here that employ hundreds of Thai people to create goods that can actually be exported to the rest of the world, while learning technical skills so Thailand can create its own car company someday. And we keep the property to ourselves to prevent inflation and misallocation of resources to wasteful speculation, such as what happened before the 1997 crash. Even farangs here can't afford to live in their home countries, and now they want to spread this speculation contagion to our country.

Forstly Livinlos, a very good post!

Thaible - Please check the demographics of the actual foreigners that are coming to Thailand. I think you will find a very small percentage are American.

Im also not sure what farangs you are talking about in regard to: "Even farangs here can't afford to live in their home countries, and now they want to spread this speculation contagion to our country."

This might of been the norm about 10 years ago, but I think many of us could actually buy something very nice in our own countries. I for one, would have a far better standard of living in real estate terms/infrastructure etc.

So "Real investors" mean Toyota do they? How would this help the Thai people? It would only help the elite. Go and watch Noo Hin (the movie), there is a great scene when they are singing aout "the factory".

Here's a thought, why not ban all foreigners and foreign businesses and all of the technology and inventions that WE HAVE started.

TV, the car, the motorbike, the phone, football, electricity, the satellites, hospital equipment etc - bascially everything you do and need on a daily basis comes from us... even mama was copied from a frang noodle company.

When you sit down to your meal tonight, think about refrigeration, your sofa, your tv, your cooking utencils, your lights, your stove and bow your head and thank the farang for all his work, whilst your forefathers were sitting around just existing.

sad but true!

[thaigene2]

I have a slightly better idea - howabout we encourage REAL investors such as Toyota to build factories here that employ hundreds of Thai people to create goods that can actually be exported to the rest of the world, while learning technical skills so Thailand can create its own car company someday.

You mean the same way you encouraged other foreign companies to come here and do business?

Like that American guy who partnered with a very famous Thai telecoms thai-coon only to find himself ripped off and kicked out of the country after sharing his technology??

Or Carlsberg Beer that came here to develop Beer Chang, with the only return expected by the Thai partner that he market Carlsberg too? Gee, that Thai - the richest guy in Thailand - must have 'misunderstood' the contract..or perhaps Carlsberg didn't understand Thai values?

Yeah, the only 'technical skills' most of your friends above have learned is bok lok falang (skin the falang)..no I don't need my Thai wife to translate, thank you very much.

By the way Thaible, you understand and write English quite well. That means education..and that means money..Is Khun Pho a Jao Pho (chinese godfather, usually in big provincial towns)? Did he care about ordinary 'Thai' people? Or just his friends in Ang Yi (chinese secret societies)?

Farangs only ask for a transparent and level playing field here in Thailand, free of Ang Yi and Guanxi-style syndicates.

Your right about one thing, we are pretty gullible. We take people on face value and believe the rule of law should take precedence - strangely that's a little like what you're arguing for in enforcement of property laws. Why so many Western companies keep coming here to do business with the 10 or 12 big oligarchs is beyond me. I guess we just never learn..

[thaigene2]

Thailand is for Thai People. It doesn't matter about where the ancestors came from.

Whew..Thanks Chinachampion. That's a relief. So then I guess it's okay for my Thai-Farang son to marry your Thai-Chinese daughter then..Or better still, maybe she would prefer my wife's Thai-Lao nephew? He's becoming a monk soon..but ya know he'll be available in a few months.

Glad to know that they're all Thai and 'it doesn't matter where the ancestors come from'

[BlackJack]

So are you saying that thai's are really chinese and indians as they own all the prime real estate in Thailand

True, but Thailand has realized this mistake and is now passing laws to prevent losing all of its land to foreigners.

Additionally, these groups actually do invest in Thailand by creating sizable businesses which employ Thais. Most farangs, on the other hand, think that hiring a gardener for their new house is "investing". These groups also show their love of Thai people by actually learning to speak the language, while very few Westerners can survive without their girlfriends as translators.

You miss the point

Its already happened - the land is owned and controlled - by "Now" thai citizens whose parents come from another country. Now you can be classified as developing multi cultural country.

Your views of the world are very narrow - open up and expand - this is the way to succeed.

you might also get out the history books and check on a few subjects like explorers and first settlers

Keep your replies coming as I am sure you are getting an education now

[Mobi]

Quite frankly, I think you guys who are having this prolonged argument with our friend, Mr. Thaible, are all pissing in the wind.

I still think that there is a large element of ‘wind up’ in Thaible’s posts, although there is no question that he personally dislikes westerners intensely, and is reveling in our current discomfort over the land crackdown.

Thaible writes perfect English, and is not in any way intimidated by taking on the combined might of the TV farangs in what should be his second language. Therefore I think it is reasonable to assume that he spent at least part, if not all, of his education in an English speaking country – probably the US or the UK. I would also venture to suggest that he did not altogether enjoy his years in that country – possibly at one of the cheaper, less reputable establishments, and that he has developed a large chip on his shoulder as a direct result some unpleasant experiences when he was an overseas student.

It is also possibly the case that he has been personally exposed to the seedier side of the farang community in Thailand, and maybe even a member of his own family has become ‘entwined’ in some way with some low life farangs, as he certainly has a 'thing' about cheapo farangs and their ‘bar-girl-wife translators’, and what good do they bring to his country?

You can make points about how the westerners have benefited and enriched Thailand till the cows come home, but this embittered Thai is always going to find ways to refute your arguments and insist that this is his country, (which it is), and he doesn’t want you to own land here. Of course he understands your arguments, (and probably secretly acknowledges a lot of what you say), but he’s never going to admit it, and he just enjoys seeing you all squirm and get worked up, every time he makes a new post.

To me, what is of far more interest, and relevance is the sheer volume of articles, including the front page story, and a quoted lawyers opinion, in today’s Pattaya Today, that keeps ramming home the contention, that existing companies aren’t affected by the crackdown and that going forward, the new loophole is to simply transfer 49% shares from a 100% owned Thai company, after the land has been registered. Of course, they all have a vested interest in saying this, but it’s looking increasingly likely that this may well become the new accepted 'norm', until there is some change in the law, which is not going to happen any time soon.

[Thaible]

To me, what is of far more interest, and relevance is the sheer volume of articles, including the front page story, and a quoted lawyers opinion, in today’s Pattaya Today, that keeps ramming home the contention, that existing companies aren’t affected by the crackdown and that going forward, the new loophole is to simply transfer 49% shares from a 100% owned Thai company, after the land has been registered. Of course, they all have a vested interest in saying this, but it’s looking increasingly likely that this may well become the new accepted 'norm', until there is some change in the law, which is not going to happen any time soon.

This loophole can also be closed in days. Wait to see what happens after the October election. And if Thailand does not sign an FTA agreement with the US, there is no reason left to let farangs circumvent the law, as if they were above it.

Edited June 15, 2006 by Thaible

[Thaible]

anyways ... things are fine just the way they are today here in Thailand .. i would love to see it change ... but if it doesn't it won't change my being here

I believe this is the way most farangs feel. Renting is not the end of the world.

The only ones that are threatened by the land ownership laws are speculators that want to resell later to a Thai at a higher price. And Thailand definitely does not need anymore of these bad influences.

[happy traveller]

Can anyone give me an idea of hoe this will affect me? I am in the process of openig a business in Bkok with a Thai partner. The land is rented ( owned by the King) and we have a 30 year lease on it. The property is unfinished at present and we have got a bank loan against family land owned by my Thai partner to finish off all the building work. We are currently doing all the necessary paperwork etc.

Should I go ahead? He can prove where the money is coming from and as the land is rented is there a problem here?

[BlackJack]

To me, what is of far more interest, and relevance is the sheer volume of articles, including the front page story, and a quoted lawyers opinion, in today’s Pattaya Today, that keeps ramming home the contention, that existing companies aren’t affected by the crackdown and that going forward, the new loophole is to simply transfer 49% shares from a 100% owned Thai company, after the land has been registered. Of course, they all have a vested interest in saying this, but it’s looking increasingly likely that this may well become the new accepted 'norm', until there is some change in the law, which is not going to happen any time soon.

This loophole can also be closed in days. Wait to see what happens after the October election. And if Thailand does not sign an FTA agreement with the US, there is no reason left to let farangs circumvent the law, as if they were above it.

Thaible - i dont think you have done your homework. With regards to FTA's and their affects on Thailand

Thailand signed an FTA with Australia 18 months back and considerable reciprical

benefits were given to each country - some of the benefits to Australia that will kick in over the next few years will be to OWN - none of this 49% nonsense but to majority own

Higher limits on Foreign Ownership

Thailand currently has a limit of 49 per cent on foreign equity in most sectors, although this cap

is more restrictive in some sectors such as telecommunications and banking. Once TAFTA

enters into force, Thailand will permit majority Australian ownership of mining, construction,

management consulting and hospitality ventures. Annex 8 of TAFTA lists Thailand’s specific

commitments in these sectors.

Australia also gave considerable benefits to Thailand and one was to allow Thai students to study and work in Australia without all the nonsense work permits etc. This money can then help them off set their fees and also allow them to send some back to Thailand to support their families ( as THailand does not have a welfare system to support their own people )

Also the student after graduating can remain for 2 years

Thaible - ya gotta understand that its not a one way street and theres no free lunch.

So are you now sugggesting that Thailand pull the pin on all the hard work -

[BlackJack]

I just have to sink the boot in here

so Thaible have a look at the BOI news

Foreign investment jumps 62% in 2005

BOI expects US$20 billion in 2006

The value of net applications for investment promotion privileges set a new record in 2006, with 1,358 projects proposing 704.5 billion baht (US$17.5 billion) in investments. The record was the result of a 62% increase in foreign investment, which surged to 498.8 billion baht (US$12.5 billion), compared with 307 billion baht in 2004.

maybe you better put your thinking cap on and find a way to cash in on this runaway train

[Thaible]

Higher limits on Foreign Ownership

Thailand currently has a limit of 49 per cent on foreign equity in most sectors, although this cap

is more restrictive in some sectors such as telecommunications and banking. Once TAFTA

enters into force, Thailand will permit majority Australian ownership of mining, construction,

management consulting and hospitality ventures. Annex 8 of TAFTA lists Thailand’s specific

commitments in these sectors.

That sounds good to me. This is REAL investment into productive businesses, not real estate (a NON-PRODUCTIVE asset) speculation.

[Heng]

I just have to sink the boot in here

so Thaible have a look at the BOI news

Foreign investment jumps 62% in 2005

BOI expects US$20 billion in 2006

The value of net applications for investment promotion privileges set a new record in 2006, with 1,358 projects proposing 704.5 billion baht (US$17.5 billion) in investments. The record was the result of a 62% increase in foreign investment, which surged to 498.8 billion baht (US$12.5 billion), compared with 307 billion baht in 2004.

maybe you better put your thinking cap on and find a way to cash in on this runaway train

It'd be interesting to see how that breaks down country by country. I think a lot of foreigners like to take the combined numbers and assume it represents whatever countries are near and dear to them.

That said, the embittered Thais: Thaible + Chinachampion (same person?) vs. the embittered falangs is getting a bit droll.

[KhunMarco]

I just have to sink the boot in here

so Thaible have a look at the BOI news

Foreign investment jumps 62% in 2005

BOI expects US$20 billion in 2006

The value of net applications for investment promotion privileges set a new record in 2006, with 1,358 projects proposing 704.5 billion baht (US$17.5 billion) in investments. The record was the result of a 62% increase in foreign investment, which surged to 498.8 billion baht (US$12.5 billion), compared with 307 billion baht in 2004.

maybe you better put your thinking cap on and find a way to cash in on this runaway train

It'd be interesting to see how that breaks down country by country. I think a lot of foreigners like to take the combined numbers and assume it represents whatever countries are near and dear to them.

That said, the embittered Thais: Thaible + Chinachampion (same person?) vs. the embittered falangs is getting a bit droll.

I think a lot a foreigners don't give a darn rat actually...

Do you really think the avg foreigner is worried about whether their money is going to really help the Thai economy?

Huh he, sure

You think too mutt

[Heng]

I just have to sink the boot in here

so Thaible have a look at the BOI news

Foreign investment jumps 62% in 2005

BOI expects US$20 billion in 2006

The value of net applications for investment promotion privileges set a new record in 2006, with 1,358 projects proposing 704.5 billion baht (US$17.5 billion) in investments. The record was the result of a 62% increase in foreign investment, which surged to 498.8 billion baht (US$12.5 billion), compared with 307 billion baht in 2004.

maybe you better put your thinking cap on and find a way to cash in on this runaway train

It'd be interesting to see how that breaks down country by country. I think a lot of foreigners like to take the combined numbers and assume it represents whatever countries are near and dear to them.

That said, the embittered Thais: Thaible + Chinachampion (same person?) vs. the embittered falangs is getting a bit droll.

I think a lot a foreigners don't give a darn rat actually...

Do you really think the avg foreigner is worried about whether their money is going to really help the Thai economy?

Huh he, sure

You think too mutt

I was referring to those who quote FDI stats in Thai-falang slanging matches on webforums.

I think the status quo for most foreigners and locals is that few care where their funds end up.

Edited June 15, 2006 by Heng

[thaigene2]

Thaible

You know Mobi D'Ark is right. So are others. You've really got some wind up your little black University skirt don't you? (Sorry Betty Boop).

You are either not a Thai at all, or you have some huge chip on your shoulder about getting ripped off by a farang here - or maybe abroad?

You need to understand how this makes us all laugh - quite a bit actually! I get charged twice as much to get my hair cut as the Thai guy sitting next to me. I can read the sign..it says 70 baht for haricut and shave. But she charges me 120 baht. She tries to tell me it says something else..but you know I just pay it. She's ripping me off and making me lose face every time. But she's a nice lady..and she gives me a good haircut so I don't care. She knows that I know but I smile anyway.

So Thaible...who's getting the haircut in this forum. Is it you? Or is it us?

I'd like to personally apologise to you for any wrong-doing a farang has done to you in the past. You know why? Because that's just the way I am - and if you are indeed a Thai, then I live in your country and I'm grateful to live here. I married one of the most beautiful flowers of your country and we have had beautiful kids here. Why you would begrudge me the right to jointly own a house with my Thai wife is rather sad..and that's where you lose face.

I really don't think even 1% of the farangs who live here are involved in real estate development - and certainly not to 'buy land to sell back to thais' - where do you see that happening my friend? You keep saying this..we just don't get it pal..

Why not spend your energies on helping poor Thais gain property rights? TRT said they would do so..or was that just another smoke screen?? I'd support them..and this isn't my country as you pointed out. But I'd do so anyway..just becuase I like Thailand and Thai people.

[ando]

Just a hypothetical thought here.

Forget about the big foreign land developers and speculators in the tourist areas for a moment.

If foreigners were able to own land in Thailand, how many of the average farangs with Thai wives/girlfriends would be buying up small farms at cheap prices up in the north?

I would suspect it would add up to an awful lot over a period of time. Land prices would naturally rise in sought after areas and would be pushed out of the reach of many Thais on relatively low incomes. A portion of productive farmland could end up sitting idle as a farang country estate, which would further drive up prices for agricultural land in a particular area. Farangs could end up becoming the new landlords to the poor northerners if this was allowed.

I was offered some prime land some time back. about 1+ rai of built up land right next door to the village market for 300,000 TB. The area seems to be doing quite well and it seemed like a good long term investment, but I declined after some thought because 1. it would have to be in the families name. and 2. I was concerned it would put me in competition with the locals. I had no plans (or money) to do anything with the land so it would have just sat vacant for years.

[Martin]

Why so much generalising about 'farangs' and 'Thais'?

For every one who thinks one way, it is possible to find another who thinks opposite, and both can be right.

For instance, we were offered a small piece of land just round the corner from our house.

We did the opposite to 'ando'.

It could come in handy one day for us to build a bungalow suitable for us oldies, and let one of the boys have the house. So we bought it (and put it in the name of the older boy).

In no way did it put us in opposition to the locals. Both the families who have their houses on either side are quite happy for it to go on sitting vacant.

From the sound of it, 'ando' was right not to buy the land that he was offered, as he would have been seen as attempting to exploit others in his community.

We are right to buy the land we were offered, as it serves the community (by keeping our family together in it).

I think that the Thai lawmakers, who brought in the law that land is not to be sold into foreign ownership, were wise to to protect their society/nation/country against the danger of richer foreigners coming in and exploiting Thai land.

I also think that allowing a way of individual foreigners, who are committed to Thailand to the extent of wishing to reside in it, to have the use of one residential plot for their lifetimes is also sensible. But it makes sense to retain the means of stopping this if it were to 'get out of hand'.

The moment that we use the word 'loophole', we admit that we are talking about infringing the spirit of the law, whilst remaining within the letter of it. That is, we admit that we are talking about possible exploitation.

Maybe it would bring in some more investment to codify the present informal arrangment, but the Government's duty to the people is to try to ensure that investment serves, rather than exploits.

And, at present, they seem to be managing that reasonably well.

[thaigene2]

I think that the Thai lawmakers, who brought in the law that land is not to be sold into foreign ownership, were wise to to protect their society/nation/country against the danger of richer foreigners coming in and exploiting Thai land.

I'm sure only very few would argue with that..

I also think that allowing a way of individual foreigners, who are committed to Thailand to the extent of wishing to reside in it, to have the use of one residential plot for their lifetimes is also sensible. But it makes sense to retain the means of stopping this if it were to 'get out of hand'.

I think this is what we're all saying Martin. Again no argument. Why not allow foreigners married to Thais to have a 50/50 split in freehold of ONE principal residence? Any other residences, like a beach home etc, or investment property, and then the Thai has to own 100%. That wouldn't drive up prices. In Cyprus I recall the rule was that foreigners could own house but they had to live in it...they couldn't rent it out. Sensible I thought.

But I doubt it will happen here. There is a racial undertone to the whole thing. The economy and politics are controlled by an elite group that don't like us and see us challangers to their little fiefdoms.

[number6]

Thaible

You know Mobi D'Ark is right. So are others. You've really got some wind up your little black University skirt don't you? (Sorry Betty Boop).

You are either not a Thai at all, or you have some huge chip on your shoulder about getting ripped off by a farang here - or maybe abroad?

You need to understand how this makes us all laugh - quite a bit actually! I get charged twice as much to get my hair cut as the Thai guy sitting next to me. I can read the sign..it says 70 baht for haricut and shave. But she charges me 120 baht. She tries to tell me it says something else..but you know I just pay it. She's ripping me off and making me lose face every time. But she's a nice lady..and she gives me a good haircut so I don't care. She knows that I know but I smile anyway.

So Thaible...who's getting the haircut in this forum. Is it you? Or is it us?

I'd like to personally apologise to you for any wrong-doing a farang has done to you in the past. You know why? Because that's just the way I am - and if you are indeed a Thai, then I live in your country and I'm grateful to live here. I married one of the most beautiful flowers of your country and we have had beautiful kids here. Why you would begrudge me the right to jointly own a house with my Thai wife is rather sad..and that's where you lose face.

I really don't think even 1% of the farangs who live here are involved in real estate development - and certainly not to 'buy land to sell back to thais' - where do you see that happening my friend? You keep saying this..we just don't get it pal..

Why not spend your energies on helping poor Thais gain property rights? TRT said they would do so..or was that just another smoke screen?? I'd support them..and this isn't my country as you pointed out. But I'd do so anyway..just becuase I like Thailand and Thai people.

Sorry I can’t agree. I’m really happy to pay a very large tip and to pay any workers I employ a lot more than Thais pay but I object strongly to being charged more simply because I’m forang or supposedly rich. Of course is does not really affect us if we pay 120 baht for a haircut instead of 70 (I get mine for 40 baht and give a 50 baht tip voluntarily). It would be wrong for me when I owned shops in UK to charge differently just because someone was brown or supposedly richer than me. Apart from anything else it does not help improve Thailand’s image. Enough people already think Thailand’s just a place to rip of foreigners be it in overpriced property or a few extra bath for your groceries and other things. Having said that I till have 1 shop left maybe ill put up a notice in my shop English normal price, Thais double, Rich Thais as much as we want to rip you off with.

I used to get quite angry about it then noticed those Thaïs that cheat cheat their fellow Thais as much if not more when they can. The richer they are the more likely they are to cheap and exploit their poorer fellow Thais from corruption that takes money from needed schools and healthcare to overcharging and sometimes direct theft.

Now I use an effective way to do my bit to help stop this double pricing when it occurs, which is not often in non-tourist areas. So now when it happens (and its not that usual in non tourist areas) I have some fun whilst in an inoffensive way getting my message across. For example if in the market the seller asks for what I know (or find out later) is double what locals pay I simply smile buy 1kg or whatever and say Kopkun Crap. Next I find a different market stall and use my Thai (not perfect) to ask the price, which I already know and then getting the right price buy 30 kg or so of the produce at right price (later I just give it away having had my fun quite cheaply). I then make a point of going back past Thai who has cheated me with a big smile on my face. Sometimes they just stare; sometimes they ask why I did not buy from them and in my best Thai I just say sorry you sell to expensive and walk away. Sometimes they say they will give me correct price I just answer in my best Thai sorry I never let the same dog bite me twice. I always have some way of getting the message across in almost any place. Sometimes in restaurants I say again in Thai in a voice load enough for staff to hear (the message eventually gets to the owner) quite nice but its half the price at xxxxxx and tastes better.

Having said that I have found it happens less and less now ive been here a number of years. As a footnote my Thai wife’s mother runs a minimart and would never dream of charging differently for a foreigner (she just like me thinks its wrong). But then she’s one of poor educated but honest Thais that are miles away from some of the so-called educated elitist Thais we find. Miles away in every sense, in honesty, in being a nice person, in caring for her fellow humans be they Thai or foreigner. Pity some of rich Thaïs are not more like her in character.

It all just holds back development and harms poor Thais far more than any foreigner.

[BlackJack]

for those interested

Japan continued its traditional role as Thailand's most important investor nation. Japanese investors submitted 387 applications, which represented roughly 45% of all foreign applications submitted in 2005. These applications proposed 175 billion baht in investment, or more than a third of the value of all foreign investments.

The second-largest investment value came from China, which had cumulative investments of 121.9 billion baht from 19 projects. Europe ranked third in terms of value, with 142 applications and 51.9 billion baht, led by 32 projects (20.2 billion baht) from the Netherlands. ASEAN investment was next, with 121 projects and 36.3 billion baht, while investment from Taiwan rounded out the top five, with 54 projects worth 11.4 billion baht.

[SunbeltAsia]

Can anyone give me an idea of hoe this will affect me? I am in the process of openig a business in Bkok with a Thai partner. The land is rented ( owned by the King) and we have a 30 year lease on it. The property is unfinished at present and we have got a bank loan against family land owned by my Thai partner to finish off all the building work. We are currently doing all the necessary paperwork etc.

Should I go ahead? He can prove where the money is coming from and as the land is rented is there a problem here?

He can prove where the money is coming from and as the land is rented is there a problem here?

No. Because, no matter how much rights, you as the foreigner have to the land during the lease period, you do not own any interest in the land. This is the big difference between a company owning land and a individual/company renting land.

[Mobi]

Over the past 2 days, I've been up-country, and have had even more time to brouse all the Englsih language press, and come upon two interesting stories in the Bangkok Post

Here's the first:

PM's sister enters Phuket market

KANANA KATHARANGSIPORN

Another sister of caretaker Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra has entered the property business with the launch of the Dalaa Buri housing project worth 422 million baht in Phuket.

Yaowares Shinawatra, the president of Shinawatra Home Ltd, said her company was starting with a small project in order to focus on a niche market and reduce its investment risk.

The project will be located on a 13-rai plot on Thepkrasattri Road in Phuket town, and will consist of 11 commercial buildings priced at 11-12 million baht each and 18 single houses priced from 17.5 million to 21 million baht.

Five units have been booked and the firm expects to close sales by year-end.

Ms Yaowares said the project was expected to attract attention from both local and foreign buyers due to its appealing location.

Another sister of Mr Thaksin, Yingluck, is the CEO of the SET-listed property developer SC Asset Plc.

Ms Yaowares's company, formerly Shinawatra Home Mart, was in the silk business based in the family's home province of Chiang Mai, but now has shifted to the property business and increased its registered capital to 59 million baht from 40 million.

"I had developed some properties in Chiang Mai since 1997 after diversifying from the main business in silk and handicrafts. But my children have more interest in the property market so we have shifted the focus," she said.

Ms Yaowares's eldest daughter, Chayika Wongnapachant, the company's marketing and sales director, said the property business was becoming more dynamic and highly competitive. She used to work for Advanced Info Service, the cellular operator formerly controlled by the family, in the customer relationship management and business-to-business departments.

"Our positioning will focus on a niche market and not too large a scale of development," Ms Chayika said."We are starting in Phuket as it has more potential for housing development and we already own small plots in Phuket as well as Chiang Mai where we are considering more investment."

The company plans to invest about 500 million baht to acquire more land plots in Phuket for similar investments.

Sop our beloved PM's sister is planning to sell expensive houses to foreigners. Very interesting.

Here's the second:

Foreign firms descend on islands

SUPAPHONG CHAOLAN

Surat Thani _ A property boom has hit Koh Samui and Koh Phangan, with nearly 300 foreign property firms setting up business on the two resort islands in four months. Sompong Onprasert, chief of the provincial commerce office, said 292 foreign and 33 Thai companies registered with the office between January and April this year.

Of the foreign companies, 259 are based on Koh Samui while 33 are on Koh Phangan. The foreign firms are from Germany, the UK, Australia and the US.

''There is no low season when it comes to property trade on Koh Samui,'' a source in the provincial land office said.

About 100 land plots change hands each day, in addition to around 15 to 20 other land transactions.

In high demand are land plots in Ban Chaweng, Ban Choengmon, Ban Plai Laem, Ban Bang Rak, Ban Lamai and Ban Bang Po, where land changes hands at a minimum of two million baht per rai.

Kao Thanawanitnam, mayor of tambon Phangan, said Koh Phangan has attracted foreign property investors in light of the skyrocketing land prices on Koh Samui.

Land prices for beach-front sites in places like Thong Nai Pan beach, Ban Khai, Rin beach and Nai Wok bay have soared from 3-4 million baht per rai to eight million baht.

''Unlike on booming Samui, most on Phangan hold their land and run their own resorts,'' he said.

This story was in the B Post on 15th June, and the foremer story was in their 17th June edition.

No reference to the legal crackdowns anywhere.

I find the first story somewhat unsurpising - given the family lineage, but I really don't understand the second story. What's going on in these two islands? I thought all land transactions were grinding to halt as far as foreigners were concerned. Maybe someone can explain.