Target the breeding ground of corruption: Thai editorial

[lostmebike]

Target the breeding ground ? that'll be schools then.

Add to that the family home, from toddler to school--------------learning right and wrong. problem not many homes care -or do not know themselves.

Thats why I said schools, they wont get it at home for both the reasons you mentioned, its going to take at least a generation or two to fix. Probably more.... Education education education... not the degree type just the right and moral type.

I read into your thinking, my post was to agree with you and it's other purpose was to also inform the not to know posters.

I have an idea also that some schools have no idea. If the pass rate in all levels of schooling HAS to be 100% what hope have they of getting the right teachers.

If you employ a failed scholar --but they have the paper to say they have passed. ??? no hope .

A few days back, a teacher friend of mine was informed his contact will not be renewed next term (because he's Scottish and 'know one can understand him' )

Anyway, a day or 2 later, the head of department called to ask him why more than half of his students had failed their finals! Cheek of it but in true Scottish style, he politely told her to <deleted> *ff and hung up! 'Som nom na'

Edited March 14, 2014 by lostmebike

[northernjohn]

Before we all get too excited, I'd like to pose a couple of snap shot questions.

If you were in a position of absolute power and closely connected to those in a similar position, and this gave you carte blanche to do whatever you wanted, would you stop?

If you were skimming off money every month because of your shady activities - knowing that your 'connections' or position gave you protection from the law - , would you stop?

If you had to pay for your next position in the civil service - knowing that you would reap financial and other benefits in the future, would you say no?

If you were on the payroll of someone with power and influence and received a tidy sum every month, would you stop?

If you had to pay your child's school to ensure they got in or passed their exams, would you say no?

Would you take a moral and ethical stand and say no more to the insidious and cancerous influence of corruption and the Thai patronage system, knowing full well what the consequences might be?

The issue of corruption in Thailand is a moral and ethical minefield, and I don't think it's going to explode anytime soon.

Thats probably better phrased with "why or would they".... and its nope theres not a chance of them stopping, No more than bankers would refuse any bonuses when they lose money or anyone refuse a payrise or free benefits....its endemic, perfectly natural, done without thought and most westerners just dont get it. They like it that way, all of them to some degree, they dont like it when others do it but ahhhh when its about themselves theres always an excuse to turn that blind eye... its automatic.

Isnt anything going to change for a long . lonnnnnnng time on that score here, no matter what the indignant and talking heads say... its only not ok when its someone else, I dont know anyone here, not one, who dosnt engage in corruption at some level either in business or in daily life... not one and that includes me and all the rest here. Its impossible not to.

Waits for the saints to come marching in .......

Nice going. Take it from what it is meant to be and change the meaning then accuse every body of being corrupt. In what way am I corrupt. I do not drive that is where most of the corruption at the low level occurs. I am honest with the government on what I make and immigration. I do not try to pay less for a product than it cost. I pay more than the minimum for transportation. Where am I corrupt?

[ABCer]

Before we all get too excited, I'd like to pose a couple of snap shot questions.

If you were in a position of absolute power and closely connected to those in a similar position, and this gave you carte blanche to do whatever you wanted, would you stop?

If you were skimming off money every month because of your shady activities - knowing that your 'connections' or position gave you protection from the law - , would you stop?

If you had to pay for your next position in the civil service - knowing that you would reap financial and other benefits in the future, would you say no?

If you were on the payroll of someone with power and influence and received a tidy sum every month, would you stop?

If you had to pay your child's school to ensure they got in or passed their exams, would you say no?

Would you take a moral and ethical stand and say no more to the insidious and cancerous influence of corruption and the Thai patronage system, knowing full well what the consequences might be?

The issue of corruption in Thailand is a moral and ethical minefield, and I don't think it's going to explode anytime soon.

Good questions. Some yes some no. I put a high value on education.

Your first two are non applicable I wouldn't be doing any thing wrong there.

You are talking completely different levels and circumstances. I believe in starting at the head and working down. You don't kill the snake by cutting of part of it's tail you kill it by cutting of it's head.

"If you were in a position of absolute power and closely connected to those in a similar position, and this gave you carte blanche to do whatever you wanted, would you stop?

If you were skimming off money every month because of your shady activities - knowing that your 'connections' or position gave you protection from the law , would you stop?'

OK, nothernjohn, I believe you.

You are included in the sacred 400 'honest men' when I will be appointing them.

Edited March 14, 2014 by ABCer

[Thai at Heart]

First the defamation law must go.

You can't catch anyone if no one blows the whistle.

[DirtFarmer]

"Yet there is some hope: at least the TDRI and UTCC have agreed on the central root of the problem, and it is politics. Now the reform process offers a potential antidote. If we can ensure that those in high office are honest, officials lower down in the pecking order would find it harder to get away with corruption,,"

OYE ... and corruption has been "targeted" as the root of evil in "politics" since the '70's or at least that was the pitch...interesting to go back and read up on all the PM's and their intentions and then actually what was achieved... funny how in most cases ( as most other places) things didn't go according to plan..... of course here things changed much quicker than most other places...

So it goes... nice that the TDRI and UTCC can agree though... good for a luncheon I guess.. one would think by all the self examination over the last 50 years that they would have found the real root of it...in the mirror... but me change...? me...? I'm not corrupt! ...... (Admitting it is the harderst part...) I agree 100% with those who say education will need to come before some band aid knee jerk reform plan that only serves as a temporary slave for the rabid power mongers and quenches the thirst for some kind of action...on a superficial level .....plans need to be made to teach the children that the old way is no longer the best way... but I have serious doubts that it will happen anytime soon. I think this boil is festering and will burst soon..and cover many in it's spew... but if ya go back and read the media sources available...nothing in this piece is either original or groundbreaking not this year, last or 50 years back...so to me at least it seems very little has been learned other than to form more questions...this is not a matter of color/camp... it is about personal integrity and desire to change.. lotta good replies here today !! Cheers!

edit ( beware of the wolf in sheeps clothing) >>> "...Now the reform process offers a potential antidote."

Whose...?

Edited March 14, 2014 by DirtFarmer

[Bangel72]

In my view a top down alongside a bottom up approach makes most sense.

A top down alone pretty much means don't steal too much and don't get caught, whilst the bottom up approach instills it is wrong.

As someone listed a few questions to encourage thought, I'll add a few at the 'right or wrong' level rather than the upper end 'we know it's wrong but will we get caught' end.

The schools is an interesting one, anyone paid Tea money over the last decade, have those schools been prosecuted?

Have you paid a 100 baht to a taxi driver in the pouring rain when the old local lady who has been waiting longer than you but either cannot afford or refuses to pay the bribe?

Do you tip more than the locals in effect bribing the waiter to get preferred service?

Would you pay a dowry and see it has no connection to corruption or even human trafficking?

Do you bribe the local temple's donation box in return that your corruption sins are forgiven?

It used to be at some of the borders 300 baht could save you four hours queuing in the open sun, would you pay it?

I'm not looking for answers but just the consideration of 'is some corruption acceptable and if it is, is this not the breeding ground for the high end corruption?'

[JRSoul]

forget political 'colours' THIS is Thailand's disease

it's inbred in EVERY institution - perhaps if Thais practiced Buddhism it might help but education in ethics and morals is the foundation - but first and foremost is LAW

no one should be above the law but when Thais see kids killing people and then hiding abroad because of 'sickness' and getting away with murder where is the hope? start with a legal clean-out

How can we forget political colours when we have Chalerm to remind us just how corrupt you can be, and still be DPM if you have the right friend.

[kimamey]

I think they would start with targeting the government.

Who would target the government? It's the governments responsibility to organise that and we've all seen the Stop Corruption photo ops. The courts are often the way to deal with corruption but they are accused of being corrupt themselves and nobody seems to want to do anything about it other than complain when things don't go their way.

The only way to make the government, whichever side they may be is the people. Voting in one side or the other won't do it as that will just give them the mandate to carry on. The current protests have ended up just being the caretaker government against it's opponents but it started as anti government and anti corruption and that part of it needs to be continued. There needs to be reform of the politics and the judiciary to make a start on holding people on both sides to account.

[binjalin]

forget political 'colours' THIS is Thailand's disease

it's inbred in EVERY institution - perhaps if Thais practiced Buddhism it might help but education in ethics and morals is the foundation - but first and foremost is LAW

no one should be above the law but when Thais see kids killing people and then hiding abroad because of 'sickness' and getting away with murder where is the hope? start with a legal clean-out

How can we forget political colours when we have Chalerm to remind us just how corrupt you can be, and still be DPM if you have the right friend.

oh you mean same as Suthep??? BOTH guilty! so forget political colours - destroy corruption on ALL sides without fear nor favour

[PepperMe]

Target the breeding ground ? that'll be schools then.

How do you work out the schools as being a breeding ground of corruption?

Please explain in more detail.

Because as far as I am aware, the breeding ground is the government and its officials followed by the police.

[DirtFarmer]

Target the breeding ground ? that'll be schools then.

How do you work out the schools as being a breeding ground of corruption?

Please explain in more detail.

Because as far as I am aware, the breeding ground is the government and its officials followed by the police.

Well for one...the schools are where the kids learn that learning something doesn't matter as long as mom and pop contribute to the institution...instead of actually being held accountable for some sort of knowledge... which was reflected in the recent "poll" of which I am not a fan ("polls in general") the kids learn that if they show up they do not fail...indeed it is one of the places that breeds the acceptance and perpetuation of corruption ethics...then they grow learning the cronyism MO and go on up from there... it all starts at the impressionable years... that's my take on it anyway...

and the Politicians are all born into wealth and power... so with that working from the top... and kids picking it up at home and at school... they can't help but meet in the middle at some point and continue perpetuating it.... we know for sure the blue bloods /wealthy/politicos are not going to change so the only hope is from the ground up with the youth...that and a law enforcement with balls... but that may be asking too much...

Edited March 14, 2014 by DirtFarmer

[Jim walker]

Might be an idea that parents learn children what is right and what is wrong and that any form of stealing is wrong along with murdering or raping also wrong, just a few simple teaching words from mum and dad would suffice to establish right from wrong, be honest and never tell lies.

[ginjag]

Target the breeding ground ? that'll be schools then.

How do you work out the schools as being a breeding ground of corruption?

Please explain in more detail.

Because as far as I am aware, the breeding ground is the government and its officials followed by the police.

I have an idea E.Oak meant infant MPs and infant police would be taught right and wrongs, and teachers. Same as going back to square 1. start again,

You cannot re teach parents--politicians--police--no hope. back to basics the only chance---generation or two before improvement.

[ginjag]

Might be an idea that parents learn children what is right and what is wrong and that any form of stealing is wrong along with murdering or raping also wrong, just a few simple teaching words from mum and dad would suffice to establish right from wrong, be honest and never tell lies.

Your right---1 problem- parents are the ones that do not know. So education is the only way for a new start. Teachers have to know to show them, and is the standard good enough.

[lovetotravel]

Target the breeding ground ? that'll be schools then.

How do you work out the schools as being a breeding ground of corruption?

Please explain in more detail.

Because as far as I am aware, the breeding ground is the government and its officials followed by the police.

The parents are the first "breeding ground". And a lot of that is tied to education. Paying for a seat in a good school. Paying bribes to teachers for good grades. And of course accepting bribes to vote for certain politicians. Paying bribes to get out of problems. Etc. Thais are use to "short cuts".

If there was an effective police force (corruption free) this would all be dealt with. Unfortunately, that doesn't exist here in Thailand. If you have connections, you can literally get away with murder.

[Thai at Heart]

It starts earlier than that, in that a junior must not talk bad of, or question an elder.

The entire structure promotes corruption.

[ginjag]

It starts earlier than that, in that a junior must not talk bad of, or question an elder.

The entire structure promotes corruption.

It is ingrained in Thai society, as you say re-juniors, but everyone from that age is in the same boat they HAVE to bow down to Money-people in higher positions-they are afraid to express opinions--human rights ??? well that's something else.

I do not understand how in normal life the male is dominant when it comes to the crunch, BUT on Thai soap operas it is the reverse, it is the women who are screaming -shouting- scratching showing most aggression. the law for the wealthy /rich is different, they seem to disregard this teaching practice in more poorer class---- they have the freedom of speech.

Edited March 14, 2014 by ginjag