How to Properly Ride a Motorbike - Countersteering

[ATF]

If you don't know how to countersteer you are not riding your bike correctly and are putting yourself in danger. Any bike from a scooter to the fastest bike needs you to countersteer to properly corner and weave in and out of traffic. You will find your cornering much tighter and be able to swerve at the merest touch of the handlebars. There's lots of You Tube vids about this but basically all you need to do is PUSH LEFT to turn left and PUSH RIGHT to turn right. Now that's illogical. How can that work? Well if you are under 15kph steer as normal but over 15kph countersteer. Start off on a long straight road and PUSH your left hand forward on the handlebars no more than half an inch. Your bike will move left. Then PUSH with your right hand to bring the bike back on course. Practice this until you get the feel for it before taking any corners. OK to take a corner DON'T lean your body to start with just PUSH left into a left hand bend and either ease off a little or PUSH a little more whilst smoothly increasing acceleration through the bend. You will find the bike will automatically fall to the left and ride the wall of the tire. After a few months of practice you can start to shift your weight left and drop the bike even more. It's very important you don't slide your bottom across the seat when re-positioning your weight. You MUST push down on the footpegs and LIFT your bottom over, otherwise you could de-stabalise the rear wheel. Again it's very important to keep your body parallel with the bike when you shift your weight. Don't only shift your bottom, your arms and upper body must come over too. Again whole body PARALLEL with the bike. IF YOU CRASH IT'S YOUR FAULT NOT MINE. Look at the front wheel in the pic.

This is correct countersteering. Have fun!

Edited March 22, 2014 by ATF

[thepool]

Tried to teach my wife how to do this !

No success!

She steers !

[ATF]

Forgot to mention don't try to corner like this with the Missus, kids and dog onboard.

[RubberSideDown]

The rider in the pic is 'backing it in' and steering with the rear- that goes beyond simple counter-steering, and is often the result of a good rider showing off or a poor rider getting into the corner too hot (occasionally resulting in a high side)- it's usually not the fastest way around a track unless you're on a dirt bike or supermoto. You used to see it more in MotoGP (famously by Gary McCoy), but with improved tires and clutches it's not as prevalent today.

[likewise]

Good advice but I think most will probably need to start with "basic" riding lessons .

[ATF]

The rider in the pic is 'backing it in' and steering with the rear- that goes beyond simple counter-steering, and is often the result of a good rider showing off or a poor rider getting into the corner too hot (occasionally resulting in a high side)- it's usually not the fastest way around a track unless you're on a dirt bike or supermoto. You used to see it more in MotoGP (famously by Gary McCoy), but with improved tires and clutches it's not as prevalent today.

RSD,

I chose that pic because it's easy for everyone to see the front wheel moving in the opposite direction of the corner. Are you telling me you don't countersteer? Or what method do you find best to corner at high speed?

[ATF]

Good advice but I think most will probably need to start with "basic" riding lessons .

If you are learning to ride you should learn countersteering at the very start, otherwise you will need to un-learn yourself later. Obviously no-one would expect you to start dragging your knee for a while!

[RubberSideDown]

The rider in the pic is 'backing it in' and steering with the rear- that goes beyond simple counter-steering, and is often the result of a good rider showing off or a poor rider getting into the corner too hot (occasionally resulting in a high side)- it's usually not the fastest way around a track unless you're on a dirt bike or supermoto. You used to see it more in MotoGP (famously by Gary McCoy), but with improved tires and clutches it's not as prevalent today.

RSD,

I chose that pic because it's easy for everyone to see the front wheel moving in the opposite direction of the corner. Are you telling me you don't countersteer? Or what method do you find best to corner at high speed?

Of course I counter-steer- my front wheel is nearly always pointed into the turn, though, not to the outside of it. The front wheel pointed to the outside in a turn is not a necessary aspect of counter-steering.

When the wheel is pointed to the outside (as in your picture) that's riding 'crossed-up', and the rear is actually sliding in an effort to keep the bike in line (look at the strip of rubber he's laying down).

The fastest way around a corner is generally achieved by having traction in the rear and being able to accelerate through it (I believe in Keith Code's advice of cracking the throttle at the entrance of the turn and smoothly applying it to the exit)- sliding the rear like in the pic is not easy to do at will, and it takes some serious skill- it's certainly not part of Counter-Steering 101.

Look up 'backing it in' on the net.

Edited March 22, 2014 by RubberSideDown

[Gsxrnz]

The physics of counter steering is quite interesting. It's often not understood that counter steering (along with weight shift) is really only used to initiate the turn and create lean. Once the tyres have found their new position (assuming a constant maintained lean angle and speed in relation to the radius), the front wheel returns to normal steering charecteristics i.e pointing in the direction of the turn.

Counter steering may also occur whilst in a turn to increase lean angle in relation to the radius and speed, but once the correction is made, the wheel returns to pointing in the direction of the turn. If you continue to counter steer during a turn with no return to the "normal" direction once the appropriate lean angle is achieved, you will low side - that's physics. Riders are constantly adjusting their lean during a turn through on/off counter steering and weight shift, and the adjustments are so intuitive that they really are just part of riding.

Key point - counter steering and weight shifting is necessary to initiate a turn or increase lean a turn. You are not constantly counter steering while in a turn. A good example is a three apex bend - the constant lean angle adjustments required to make the bend require many adjustments which are initiated by counter steering to increase the lean and the opposite to decrease the lean. But assuming no variation in lean angle over a given distance, the wheel will be pointing in the normal direction.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Gsxrnz

[thepool]

Agreed

However such skill only comes with experience !

Experience should begin very early in a bikers life with good tuition !

We are not all Grand Prix riders although there are some loons who, to their own and other road users risk , believe they are.

Acknowledge your limitations and ride well within them !

Edited March 22, 2014 by thepool

[Dakling]

You really only need to counter steer to rotate the bike into the plane you want it prior to entering the turn. Unless you are power-sliding (intentionally over steering and sliding the rear wheel under power), once you start to turn you should no longer be counter steering unless you need to make a very quick correction to your line through the corner (ie. unseen obstacle, unforeseen decreasing radius turn, or dogs/kids/buffaloes running out on the road).

Off track I don't normally shift my weight fully as that is my reserve/emergency lean angle so that I can increase lean angle mid curve without low siding the bike (now that I am over my hooligan days I don't push it 100% on the street). On the street I will put 90% of my weight on the outside peg and lean with my upper-body but I leave my but on the seat unless I misjudge my line and need to get over further. Not sure why the outside peg thing matters but I was told to do it a long-long time ago and it seems to make the bike a bit more stable mid corner. If anyone doesn't know how to counter steer the easiest way is to drop your inside shoulder as you enter a curve and that will naturally cause you to push on the bar and voila you are counter steering. Even if you don't know what the hell we are talking about you likely already do it naturally.

Practicing counter steering and panic breaking are a good Idea so that if you find yourself in a bad spot you can work your way through it. Maybe the panic breaking thing isn't as important with ABS but I still think learning how your bike will respond to emergency inputs while you are still in a safe controlled situation is a great way to improve your survival chances.

[Dakling]

gsxrnz, great post. what I was trying to explain with mine put you said it better. I must been typing my post when you posted as I didn't see yours first, (otherwise I wouldn't have bothered).

[Gsxrnz]

You really only need to counter steer to rotate the bike into the plane you want it prior to entering the turn. Unless you are power-sliding (intentionally over steering and sliding the rear wheel under power), once you start to turn you should no longer be counter steering unless you need to make a very quick correction to your line through the corner (ie. unseen obstacle, unforeseen decreasing radius turn, or dogs/kids/buffaloes running out on the road).

Off track I don't normally shift my weight fully as that is my reserve/emergency lean angle so that I can increase lean angle mid curve without low siding the bike (now that I am over my hooligan days I don't push it 100% on the street). On the street I will put 90% of my weight on the outside peg and lean with my upper-body but I leave my but on the seat unless I misjudge my line and need to get over further. Not sure why the outside peg thing matters but I was told to do it a long-long time ago and it seems to make the bike a bit more stable mid corner. If anyone doesn't know how to counter steer the easiest way is to drop your inside shoulder as you enter a curve and that will naturally cause you to push on the bar and voila you are counter steering. Even if you don't know what the hell we are talking about you likely already do it naturally.

Practicing counter steering and panic breaking are a good Idea so that if you find yourself in a bad spot you can work your way through it. Maybe the panic breaking thing isn't as important with ABS but I still think learning how your bike will respond to emergency inputs while you are still in a safe controlled situation is a great way to improve your survival chances.

Good post. Interesting about your outside foot - when I race I found that I can get better control if I put my outside heel on the peg and point my toes out at nearly 90 degrees. This allows my legs/hips to better spread (for weight shift) and get your inside knee down. I also keep medium weight on the outside foot and just by increasing or decreasing the weight, the weight/body shift allows that reserve lean angle to kick in or a decreased lean angle as necessary. Counter steering on/off also comes into play, but the on/off weight also helps the counter steer to be effective.

I have my inside foot with the sole of the foot actually vertical to the bike and touching the frame with the toe on the peg. This also allows for more flexibility in the hips to spread your legs and get your knee on the mac. Helps to have GP shifting as with the foot on top of the peg it' easy to stamp on the shifter to change up as you exit the bend.

I guess we all find our different little tricks that we're comfortable with. Something many riders don't appreciate is the need to keep your head vertical while in a fast turn and look as far around the bend as is possible. I see so many casual riders going fast round a bend looking 1 yard in front of their front wheel - scary!

[Dakling]

Good post. Interesting about your outside foot - when I race I found that I can get better control if I put my outside heel on the peg and point my toes out at nearly 90 degrees. This allows my legs/hips to better spread (for weight shift) and get your inside knee down. I also keep medium weight on the outside foot and just by increasing or decreasing the weight, the weight/body shift allows that reserve lean angle to kick in or a decreased lean angle as necessary. Counter steering on/off also comes into play, but the on/off weight also helps the counter steer to be effective.

I have my inside foot with the sole of the foot actually vertical to the bike and touching the frame with the toe on the peg. This also allows for more flexibility in the hips to spread your legs and get your knee on the mac. Helps to have GP shifting as with the foot on top of the peg it' easy to stamp on the shifter to change up as you exit the bend.

I guess we all find our different little tricks that we're comfortable with. Something many riders don't appreciate is the need to keep your head vertical while in a fast turn and look as far around the bend as is possible. I see so many casual riders going fast round a bend looking 1 yard in front of their front wheel - scary!

I would always keep my outside foot pretty much inline with the frame of the bike, maybe pointed out a bit but I would keep the peg under the part of my foot just behind my toes (the ball of the foot). That way I felt most ready to move around as required.

I would do something similar to what you describe with my inside foot, Normally I had my heel up in the air on the rearset guard area with my toes on the peg pointed into the corner. The only problem with this was it would make my knee stick way out and I would have to tuck it in at high lean angles.

As I said though I am too old and fat to do any of this stuff these days though. I ride quickly but safely now when I am riding, (though I don't have a bike right now). I never go into a corner hard anymore unless I can see the exit before entering and I don't find many like that in Thailand. I also find cornering is becoming a bit of a lost art (or at least a different art) as modern high power bikes are often faster if you go in a bit slow with a tight entry and wide exit so you can get back on the throttle early. My last "real" sport bike was a CBR954, cornering on it was very different from the old VFR500 that I learned on. With the VFR maintaining corner speed throughout was more critical because you didn't have that incredible power on exit.

[KRS1]

ive found that countersteering is tire dependent.

pirelli rosso 2 loves it

IRC IZ003 (track tire) hates it, more point and shoot.

[Dakling]

I have my inside foot with the sole of the foot actually vertical to the bike and touching the frame with the toe on the peg. This also allows for more flexibility in the hips to spread your legs and get your knee on the mac.

Something many riders don't appreciate is the need to keep your head vertical while in a fast turn and look as far around the bend as is possible. I see so many casual riders going fast round a bend looking 1 yard in front of their front wheel - scary!

I do something very similar with my inside foot though like I said now that I don't do track days or anything I don't actually get over and hang off the bike unless I screwed up somehow on entry and completely misjudged the curve.

I also never go into a curve aggressively on the street unless I can see the exit. This includes roads I am familiar with. Too many unexpected obstacles here. I agree 100% on keeping your head as level as possible as it helps with vision and balance, also your comment on looking ahead is brilliant. I look for the exit of the corner than pick what I think to be the best line and then kinda split my attention between apex and exit, difficult to explain exactly but it works for me. Also part of why I slow down allot at night, way too easy to overdrive your headlights on a bike.

Not exactly on topic, but worth mentioning is Target fixation. I think the biggest and most important riding technique/concept to master for the normal rider is target fixation. You will generally go where you look so if you stare at that dog or pothole that unexpectedly appeared you will hit it. Try to look for the safe path you want/need to follow and keep your eyes on it.

Ahhh crap hate my connection thought my previous post was lost so I rewrote it as this post. Now it doesn't make too much sense as some is repeated. Oh well... hope you can follow it.

Edited March 22, 2014 by Dakling

[BSJ]

"Again it's very important to keep your body parallel with the bike when you shift your weight. Don't only shift your bottom, your arms and upper body must come over too. Again whole body PARALLEL with the bike."

I am not comfortable with that description. The upper body isn't parallel to the bike. Your leaning the bike and staying upright by swivelling at the hips. Your lower body stays with the lean of the bike. Staying parallel with the bike is what one does when leaning the bike into a curve without counter steering.

[funcat]

You write a lot...maybe some proper videos to help your(or THE) 'proper' technique ....as mentioned before,there are many,so which one will show/explain this the best... ?

[andreandre]

If you don't know how to countersteer you are not riding your bike correctly and are putting yourself in danger.

Thats very misleading..IMO

Countersteering is basically automatic when riding at any more than running speed, it is physics at work and is about the only control technique that is done instantly and without any concious thought or action.

Tho' it it true that many people don't really know that they are doing it, because as i said its automatic..and IMO i don't think you could ride a bike through quicker corners without counter steering ,tho some degree can be managed by weight shifting for sure. At times a quick weight shift will alter your line ,say to miss a rock on the road.

Gyroscopic effect with speed increase is the main contributor along with trail angle and wheel base..these all dictate degrees of counter steer used/needed.

Countersteer also is only momentary thing in initialising the turn,by having the wheel pointing to the opposite of the turn.and as soon as the bike leans into the turn the front wheel comes accross and points in the direction of motion again

.On entering a corner and all the way through it and looking ahead to the next corner your bike will go exactly where you are looking..again near automatically..dont get fixated on something else on the road ahead.I've seen guys go off line/off he road because their eyes looked away.Seen guys following these ones run off right behind them because they fixated on the first rider.

Practice, practice different riding techniques and know your limits and stick to those limits....

[ATF]

You write a lot...maybe some proper videos to help your(or THE) 'proper' technique ....as mentioned before,there are many,so which one will show/explain this the best... ?

As I said there are dozens if not hundreds of videos on You Tube and the internet about this and as some members have quite rightly pointed out my countersteering instructions have got mixed up with cornering techniques. However it is difficult to separate them. Countersteering is a completely illogical process and watching vid after vid will probably leave you confused. The way I was taught is to PUSH LEFT to steer left instead of saying turn right or pull right to turn LEFT. That really messes with your brain, like trying to pat your head and rub your stomach at the same time. It doesn't matter if you ride a scooter or a Harley, follow my initial instructions on a straight road to get a feel for it, because your brain will tell you not to do it so you have to convince your brain that it does work. No amount of vids will convince your brain. Bike tires are round, car tires are flat so what you are basically doing is rolling around on the tire. If you had flat car type tires on your bike countersteering wouldn't work. Unless you were drifting I suppose.

Edited March 22, 2014 by ATF

[Tywais]

I actually was never taught nor read about counter steering. It was something I picked up after experimenting driving down the highway with my KZ400 at 100mph and noticed that if I pushed slightly on the left bar the bike went left and vice versa. I carried that over to corners and was more comfortable after this discovery. I just assumed all bike riders have the feel of it after driving long enough.

[andreandre]

You write a lot...maybe some proper videos to help your(or THE) 'proper' technique ....as mentioned before,there are many,so which one will show/explain this the best... ?

As I said there are dozens if not hundreds of videos on You Tube and the internet about this and as some members have quite rightly pointed out my countersteering instructions have got mixed up with cornering techniques. However it is difficult to separate them. Countersteering is a completely illogical process and watching vid after vid will probably leave you confused. The way I was taught is to PUSH LEFT to steer left instead of saying turn right or pull right to turn LEFT. That really messes with your brain, like trying to pat your head and rub your stomach at the same time. It doesn't matter if you ride a scooter or a Harley, follow my initial instructions on a straight road to get a feel for it, because your brain will tell you not to do it so you have to convince your brain that it does work. No amount of vids will convince your brain. Bike tires are round, car tires are flat so what you are basically doing is rolling around on the tire. If you had flat car type tires on your bike countersteering wouldn't work. Unless you were drifting I suppose.

IMO you are making a very simple automatic riding technique into an overly complicated proceedure that most new riders will find very daunting if they follow your posts..very confusing OP and now this one making it sound like a nightmare to any newbie relying on posted advice.

[Gonsalviz]

Tried to teach my wife how to do this !

No success!

She steers !

An MC I rode with in Korea had a guy that would not counter steer under any circumstances. Many tried to instruct him but he refused. He knew it was wrong and just told everyone to go ahead. Many rides he just showed up about 2 hours late even though he took a much straighter route.

[ATF]

You write a lot...maybe some proper videos to help your(or THE) 'proper' technique ....as mentioned before,there are many,so which one will show/explain this the best... ?

As I said there are dozens if not hundreds of videos on You Tube and the internet about this and as some members have quite rightly pointed out my countersteering instructions have got mixed up with cornering techniques. However it is difficult to separate them. Countersteering is a completely illogical process and watching vid after vid will probably leave you confused. The way I was taught is to PUSH LEFT to steer left instead of saying turn right or pull right to turn LEFT. That really messes with your brain, like trying to pat your head and rub your stomach at the same time. It doesn't matter if you ride a scooter or a Harley, follow my initial instructions on a straight road to get a feel for it, because your brain will tell you not to do it so you have to convince your brain that it does work. No amount of vids will convince your brain. Bike tires are round, car tires are flat so what you are basically doing is rolling around on the tire. If you had flat car type tires on your bike countersteering wouldn't work. Unless you were drifting I suppose.

IMO you are making a very simple automatic riding technique into an overly complicated proceedure that most new riders will find very daunting if they follow your posts..very confusing OP and now this one making it sound like a nightmare to any newbie relying on posted advice.

Dear Andre,

All I can say in my defense is if I have brought the awareness of one person to the benefits of countersteering I have achieved my goal. Not only will I have enriched their life but hopefully started them on the road to learning new and proper riding techniques. Most foreigners in Thailand only ever learn to ride a bike here. Myself included. Countersteering never came to me naturally I had to be taught together with other techniques. You have the benefit of being an experienced rider and obviously this post is not for you. But if you can explain it better than myself please go ahead. I would appreciate anything I could learn about bikes or any other subject from you or anyone else. Maybe you could start with your top ten do's and don'ts when riding or maintaining a bike?

[andreandre]

"Again it's very important to keep your body parallel with the bike when you shift your weight. Don't only shift your bottom, your arms and upper body must come over too. Again whole body PARALLEL with the bike."

I am not comfortable with that description. The upper body isn't parallel to the bike. Your leaning the bike and staying upright by swivelling at the hips. Your lower body stays with the lean of the bike. Staying parallel with the bike is what one does when leaning the bike into a curve without counter steering.

Agree with you on this..

Back in late 60's early 70's when i was 'playing around racing' on a BSA Gold Star this was indeed the technique It was normal then to keep your body parallel to the bike at all times, including hard cornering,and you were taught to ride tidy ..ie you never even stuck a knee out on a high speed corner,let alone hang off it... you kept it so body and bike always looked to be one and the same.

Obviously counter steering happened as it is normal, but i remember being told to only 'use body english' to control the bike...pressure on the sides of the gas tank from the knees being the main one AFAIR..worked for sure at the time, but things were a lot less sophisticated then than now

.

Dunlop Triangular Tyres were the tyre of choice then and because of their triangular profile you literally fell into a corner with very little input of your own.You were either up right vertical or over to the flat of the tyre..not much in between...a weird feeling..

The front tyre on the right shows the profile which remained much the same when inflated..

[Gonsalviz]

Agreed

However such skill only comes with experience !

Experience should begin very early in a bikers life with good tuition !

We are not all Grand Prix riders although there are some loons who, to their own and other road users risk , believe they are.

Acknowledge your limitations and ride well within them !

I used to be one of those GP riders you mention. On HD's (big and small) no less but have since slowed. Not because of any incidents. Maybe because of the road hazards in Thailand or maybe because I got old.

A rider I used to hang with out raced a 250 2 stroke can-am on some hellacious curves after he past our group, with an 883 Sportster. (Korea) At the next stop for the group he got a condescending bow from the Korean guy.

There was one new guy riding a 1200 Sporty and at the time I was riding an 883. He was convinced I had modified it but it was a stock 883.

Later, I did convert to 1200 cc and some modified cams. Boy was that fun after I installed a forkbrace. Prior to the fork brace, curves were a doozey but I knew not to fight it. Just let it be, no matter how scary it was. Thank God, tank slappers didn't happen.

I rode a Heritage for a year. It scraped the road like nobody's business. I installed V&H ProPipe with a monstous bracket to support the muffler. I thought at the time it was monstrously over sized until I realized it was a skid to keep the muffler from scraping. I ground that bracket down and then took it to a welding shop and got more layers added. The floor boards went from 1/2 " to 0".

I rode a Road King with hi lift cams the same way in Korea.

I now ride a Road King now with a 96" engine with the same hi lift cams but I am slower for the above reasons.

Wild and crazy, maybe but there were no accidents or even close calls. Everyone should ride within their envelope. And that was a mantra for our group.

[Dakling]

The one time that I find myself consciously counter steering is when I am trying to avoid a smallish pothole or something that I either noticed late or for some reason I don't want to go around it. Only works if you are going straightish, but sometimes will consciously push hard on the bars to get the bike to roll on its axis so the wheels miss the obstacle then reverse the counter steer to get back out of the lean without ever making a significant change in my line. In normal cornering I do it without even thinking.

I will say that some of what we have said about moving your body and technique really best applies to sport bikes. Standard bikes are pretty much the same but you can't be as aggressive. Crusers are a bit of a different kettle of fish, you still counter steer but you sure don't lean or move around as much.

[fatdrunkandstupid]

I grew up tearing through the desert and saltbush chasing kangaroos to shoot. Don't ever remember countersteering.

Maybe it is just a coffee table topic for you city kids that can't actually ride.

Edited March 22, 2014 by fatdrunkandstupid

[Gonsalviz]

You really only need to counter steer to rotate the bike into the plane you want it prior to entering the turn. Unless you are power-sliding (intentionally over steering and sliding the rear wheel under power), once you start to turn you should no longer be counter steering unless you need to make a very quick correction to your line through the corner (ie. unseen obstacle, unforeseen decreasing radius turn, or dogs/kids/buffaloes running out on the road).

Off track I don't normally shift my weight fully as that is my reserve/emergency lean angle so that I can increase lean angle mid curve without low siding the bike (now that I am over my hooligan days I don't push it 100% on the street). On the street I will put 90% of my weight on the outside peg and lean with my upper-body but I leave my but on the seat unless I misjudge my line and need to get over further. Not sure why the outside peg thing matters but I was told to do it a long-long time ago and it seems to make the bike a bit more stable mid corner. If anyone doesn't know how to counter steer the easiest way is to drop your inside shoulder as you enter a curve and that will naturally cause you to push on the bar and voila you are counter steering. Even if you don't know what the hell we are talking about you likely already do it naturally.

Practicing counter steering and panic breaking are a good Idea so that if you find yourself in a bad spot you can work your way through it. Maybe the panic breaking thing isn't as important with ABS but I still think learning how your bike will respond to emergency inputs while you are still in a safe controlled situation is a great way to improve your survival chances.

Push in the direction you want to go or pull to the direction you want to go (with the opposite grip) is normal for me. HD has throttle friction and I ride with it tightened just enough to keep the throttle in position. I can scratch my nose or anything else and not lose speed. I would not recommend this for an inexperienced rider.

They say when you are being taught, to not look down because where you look is where you are going to go. This is very true until you gain A LOT of experience.

The last thing you want to do is panic. Always keep your head (what are my options here). It is either to use your knowledge and experience or go down. Going down is the last option. Feather the brakes or just push in the direction you want to go, or both.

[Gonsalviz]

I actually was never taught nor read about counter steering. It was something I picked up after experimenting driving down the highway with my KZ400 at 100mph and noticed that if I pushed slightly on the left bar the bike went left and vice versa. I carried that over to corners and was more comfortable after this discovery. I just assumed all bike riders have the feel of it after driving long enough.

Trust me, not all rider get this. Many try to ride outside their envelope and panic.