Why is it so difficult to reach Nibbana?

[VincentRJ]

I find this an interesting discussion. I didn't have a religious upbringing, and I consider myself an agnostic or atheist. But there's something about Buddhism which I find rather amazing. It seems incredible that someone who lived 2,500 years ago, Siddhartha Gautama Buddha, could be aware of a reality that in many respects seems so much in accord with modern science.

The Buddha seems to have taught that what we usually accept as reality is in fact an illusion. This is what modern science also teaches. To take a very simple example, when we look at a tree with green leaves, we believe that the greenness of the leaf is reality. The leaves of the tree are green. It's obvious. Who could deny it.

However, we know from modern science that the leaf has no property of greenness. It's an illusion. The greenness of the leaf exists only in our own minds. The sensation of greenness in our brains has been stimulated by the reception, or sight, of a particular frequency of light which the leaf has emitted. Other creatures may have a different experience when receiving, or seeing, the same frequency of light, and people who are color blind may also have a different experience.

Some creatures see only in black and white, or shades of grey, and some creatures see colors that are invisible to humans, such as ultraviolet and infrared.

A similar situation applies to the other senses of hearing, taste, smell and touch. An object which is separate from us, provokes a particular sensation within us. We then have a tendency to project our individual feelings and descriptions of those sensations, onto the objects, or persons, that stimulated the sensations, believing that we are experiencing or expressing reality.

Another truism from Buddhism, which is in accord with modern science, is the concept of impermanence. It seems clear that everything is in a process of change. According to modern science, within a period of 7 years, every cell in the human body has been completely replaced or regenerated. In a sense, every 7 years we are a different person.

However, what does tend to disturb me a bit are the descriptions in Buddhism of the magical, other-worldly and heavenly realms. I'm pleased that Buddhism does not insist there is a single, almighty, creator ,God, but there does appear to be lots of gods of various descriptions whom Buddhists seem to seek some sort of help from. What's going on here, I wonder?

[fabianfred]

A lot of people who are born Buddhist have not really studied it as have those who have converted from another belief. They are therefore often unsure. To hedge their bets they sometimes like to pay respects to several deities. These gods are actually just beings like us living in higher realms and stuck in samsara as we are.

Sent from my GT-N8000 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[rockyysdt]

I find this an interesting discussion. I didn't have a religious upbringing, and I consider myself an agnostic or atheist. But there's something about Buddhism which I find rather amazing. It seems incredible that someone who lived 2,500 years ago, Siddhartha Gautama Buddha, could be aware of a reality that in many respects seems so much in accord with modern science.

However, what does tend to disturb me a bit are the descriptions in Buddhism of the magical, other-worldly and heavenly realms. I'm pleased that Buddhism does not insist there is a single, almighty, creator ,God, but there does appear to be lots of gods of various descriptions whom Buddhists seem to seek some sort of help from. What's going on here, I wonder?

Some are fixed in the existence of divas & demons, some quite the opposite, yet others are open to all views, remaining attached to none.

I feel that whether there are heavenly realms with god like beings or not is of no importance.

In fact, having fixed views may end up being ones impasse.

The best avenue to take is to practice the path taught without attachment to belief, but with an openness of heart.

What is important is the practice.

If/When one finally experiences what is , then the answer will lie before him/her.

Edited April 21, 2014 by rockyysdt

[trd]

“Now, Kalamas, don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted and carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness’ — then you should enter and remain in them.”

Kalama Sutta

[Jawnie]

In reply to the original question, "Why is it so difficult to reach Nibbana?" it is often said that we've been wandering in cyclic existence since beginningless time, having resided within each of the six realms many times until our karma in that realm was exhausted and we were propelled to the next. Throughout all of this, the habits and beliefs in an abiding self have become deeply ingrained as our consciousness. The path to Nirvana is the cleansing and purifying of those habits in order to reach the luminous state of Nirvana which is our natural state. When we finally attain that, it is also said one realizes then that all the time we spent in cyclic existence was never real and was an illusion the whole time. Having clung to the belief in a self for so long and so strongly is the reason it's so difficult to reach Nirvana. The various forms of Buddhism: Hinayana, Mahayana, and Vajrayana are different approaches to the same goal.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Jawnie

[Bkungbank]

Easy way not to set target like University how many subjects need to learn how much we know only worldly knowledge doesn't help much if we need to swim we need less cloth to achieve Nibbana less attachment the better it is, When you saw a beggar you already a temporary a Buddha when you walk into bank you already a human. Forcing in not the way of Buddha practice like the Lord sitting under tree for years with not much result. Don't burden yourself for what you will get and status in heaven as what you mind think also a illusion only.

[beautifulthailand99]

The Heart Sutra English Translation

When Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara practised the deep Prajnaparamita, he saw that the five skandhas were empty; thus he overcame all ills and suffering.

"O Sariputra! Form does not differ from the void, and the void does not differ from the form. Form is the void, and the void is form. The same is true for feelings, conceptions, impulses and consciousness.

O Sariputra, the characteristics of the void is not created, not annihilated, not impure, not pure, not increasing, not decreasing.

Therefore, in the void there are no forms and no feelings, conceptions, impulses and no consciousness: there is no eye, ear, nose, tongue, body or mind; there is no form, sound, smell, taste, touch or idea; no eye elements, until we come to no elements of consciousness; no ignorance and also no ending of ignorance, until we come to no old age and death; and no ending of old age and death.

Also, there is no truth of suffering, of the cause of suffering, of the cessation of suffering or of the path. There is no wisdom, and there is no attainment whatsoever. Because there is nothing to be attained, a Bodhisattva relying on Prajnaparamita has no obstruction in his heart. Because there is no obstruction he has no fear, and he passes far beyond all confused imagination and reaches Ultimate Nirvana.

All Buddhas in the past, present and future have attained Supreme Enlightenment by relying on the Prajnaparamita. Therefore we know that the Prajnaparamita is the great magic Mantra, the great Mantra of illumination, it is the supreme Mantra, the unequaled Mantra which can truly wipe out all suffering without fail."

Therefore, he uttered the Prajnaparamita mantra, by saying:

"Gate, Gate, Paragate, Parasemgate Bodhi-svaha!"

http://www.usashaolintemple.org/chanbuddhism-heartsutratranslation/

Edited April 22, 2014 by beautifulthailand99

[RandomSand]

Hey guys, I'm really sorry to be so random on this, but I feel this video is <1> totally amazing and shows <2> the inherent balance of self evident perfection which exists in a state of Nirvana...

[beautifulthailand99]

Don't worry about it Fred just take one day at a time and do good - surely it must be possible for simple souls with simple minds to achieve a state of 'grace' and purpose without trying to reach for the stars. At times like this I like to listen to Van Morrison's Enlightenment which manages to hit most of the bases.

Enlightenment by Van Morrison. Lyrics:Chop that wood
Carry water
What's the sound of one hand clapping
Enlightenment, don't know what it is

Every second, every minute
It keeps changing to something different
Enlightenment, don't know what it is
Enlightenment, don't know what it is
It says it's non attachment
Non attachment. non attachment

I'm in the here and now, and I'm meditating
And still I'm suffering but that's my problem
Enlightenment, don't know what it is

Wake up

Enlightenment says the world is nothing
Nothing but a dream, everything's an illusion
And nothing is real

Good or bad baby
You can change it anyway you want
You can rearrange it
Enlightenment, don't know what it is
Chop that wood
And carry water
What's the sound of one hand clapping
Enlightenment, don't know what it is

All around baby. you can see
You're making your own reality. everyday because
Enlightenment, don't know what it is

One more time

Enlightenment. don't know what it is
It's up to you
Enlightenment. don't know what it is
It's up to you everyday
Enlightenment, don't know what it is
It's always up to you
Enlightenment, don't know what it is

[fabianfred]

I do not worry thanks. The original question was rhetorical... to open discussion and explain why it is difficult for those still immersed in life's pleasures and delusions.

I am certain that i know the reasons and correct path.

[rockyysdt]

Hi Fred.

Another way of looking at it is:

Knowing the correct path is not enough.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Edited April 25, 2014 by rockyysdt

[trd]

Indeed. It is the word "knowing" that one has to examine. To say, "I know the path" or "I know the truth" means what exactly? It is not possible to know anything that is an idea or object. You can look at an object in front of you and say, I see this object. I know this object. But the object is essentially empty. Form is emptiness, emptiness is form.

To follow a set of precepts or guidelines for living your life is teaching for the masses. It is for the ignorant. It is far easier to follow a set of rules than to realise you are beyond all of that which is relative. However it can have validity as a starting point on the path to realising that all must be given up in complete surrender. The only purpose of scripture is to turn the mind inwards.

[trd]

I sometimes think that Theravada is rather joyless.

[fabianfred]

Hi Fred.

Another way of looking at it is:

Knowing the correct path is not enough.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

of course...one has to tread the path too..

[fabianfred]

I sometimes think that Theravada is rather joyless.

Life is rather joyless for many...

Knowing the goals and causes for life and all it brings (through Theravada) I find it full of Joy.

But then, we aren't supposed to enjoy life enough to get attached to it are we...

[RandomSand]

Hey guys, here's a little Shin Buddhism story.

Two Stages in Shinran's Life

The most important event in Shinran's life was his meeting with Honen (1133-1212), the founder of the Jodo School, when Shinran was twenty-nine. This event divided his life into two stages: the period before the meeting was the first stage and the period after it was the second stage.

When Shinran met Honen, Shinran realized that he had had a shallow view of Buddhahood. His thoughts on the subject went through a total transformation. Before Shinran met Honen, Shinran thought that a Buddha was a "good" and "wise" person-a holy person who was possessed of wonderful virtues. In order to become such a Buddha, Shinran attempted to purify himself by eliminating evil passions. But he could not attain Buddhalhood. Not only was he unable to become a Buddha, he was feeling more and more depressed and miserable. His goal of Buddhahood seemed far away. He could not understand what was wrong.

When Shinran met Honen, Shinran saw a Buddha in him. But the Buddhahood that he saw in Honen was totally different from what he had anticipated. More than anything else, Shinran was moved because Honen was a humble student. Honen identified himself only as a student of Shan-tao (613-681), a Chinese Pure Land master. Honen said that the only important thing for him was to learn from his teacher. This way, Honen embodied the spirit of a Buddha by the name of Namu Amida Butsu (Bowing Amida Buddha). Namu (Bowing) is a part of the Buddha's name. The Buddha's name symbolizes the humblest human spirit. Before Shinran met Honen, he had thought that a Buddha was a teacher, a respected and worshipped person. But now, having met Honen, he realized that a Buddha was actually a student, a respecting and worshipping person.

Further, before Shinran met Honen, he had thought that a Buddha was a "good" and "wise" person. But now Shinran realized that such an understanding of Buddhahood was a shallow one. He realized that he had been seeing Buddhahood only objectively, from outside. He had not known the subjective reality of Buddhahood--what a Buddha would say about himself. Although people would see a Buddha from outside and describe him by saying, "He is good and wise," a Buddha would describe himself by saying, "I'm evil and foolish." Having met Honen, who had deep insight into his own evilness and ignorance and said, "I'm evil and foolish," Shinran realized that the true essence of Buddhahood was humility--deep insight into one's own evilness and foolishness.

Thus in the first stage, i.e., before he met Honen, Shinran thought that a Buddha was a "good" and "wise" person, and Shinran made efforts to become such a Buddha. But in the second stage, i.e., after he met Honen, Shinran realized that the essence of Buddhahood was humility--studentship and insight into evilness and ignorance.

Thus, having been moved by Honen's humble spirit, Shinran also became a humble student. He recognized that he had ineradicable egoism at the basis of his being and that he had no goodness that he could rely on as the basis of his liberation. Thus he stopped his practices designed to transform himself into a holy person. He realized that a wonderful Dharma tradition had already been given to him and that the only thing necessary for him was to listen to it. This realization was his liberation.

Source: http://maidacenter.org/docs/1.pdf / or / http://www.livingdharma.org/Living.Dharma.Articles/WhatIsShinBuddhism-Haneda.html

Edited April 27, 2014 by RandomSand

[camerata]

With reference to the topic title, though, Japanese Pure Land is supposed to be a short cut to the Tusita Heaven (Amida's "Western Paradise") rather than a way to attain Nirvana or "Buddhahood." Followers rely on the grace of the mythical Buddha Amida to get there, i.e. "other power" (tariki) rather than "self power" (jiriki). IMO, Pure Land and Nichiren are as far from the historical Buddha's teachings as you can get.

[VincentRJ]

To get back to the original question which was, "Why is it so difficult to reach Nibbana?", I think there might be contributing factors other than just a lack of skillfulness on the part of the person seeking Nibbana.

For example, we have the 'Noble Eightfold Path' which consists of a graded series of stages, namely:

(1) Right view (2) Right aspiration (3) Right speech (4) Right action (5) Right livelihood (6) Right effort (7) Right mindfulness, and (8) Right concentration.

I understand those last three stages are mainly concerned with meditative practices which are explained in great detail in many Buddhist texts, particularly the Tipitaka, and I suspect that one can find teachers who will guide one through these stages, even the last one (right concentration) which relates to proficiency in the jhanas.

But what about the Tenfold Path? Here we have a couple of additional stages, namely, Right Insight (or knowledge), and Right Liberation (or release).

The person in search of Nibbana, having completed the Eightfold Path and having mastered the jhanas, has not yet reached his goal. He must practise recollecting his former existences. How does he do that? Where are the instructions? Do we assume that these additional insights and knowledge mentioned in the Tenfold Path automatically appear as fruits of perfecting the earlier stages? Does the 'right insight' spontaneously arise after the 8th stage of the Eightfold Path, right concentration, has been perfected?

Here's an extract I've found, from Gautama Buddha's account of his own enlightenment beneath the Bodhi Tree.

"Thus with the mind composed, quite purified, quite clarified, without blemish, without defilement, grown soft and workable, fixed, immovable, I directed my mind to the knowledge and recollection of former habitations. I remembered a variety of former habitations, thus: one birth, two births, three births, 4, 5, 10, 20 births, fifty, one hundred, one thousand and even 100,000 births, and so on."

Now, the fact that Gautama mentioned he 'directed his mind to the knowledge and recollection of former habitations', would suggest that the recollection of these former lives is not something that occurs spontaneously. One has to learn how to do it. If so, where's the teaching?

It's no wonder it's so difficult to reach Nibbana.

[trd]

What makes you think the Eightfold path is graded. Why not all at once?

How would recollection of past lives help. They are as impermanent as this one is.

[VincentRJ]

What makes you think the Eightfold path is graded. Why not all at once?

How would recollection of past lives help. They are as impermanent as this one is.

If one could accomplish and perfect all these stages at once, why would they be described as a 'path'?

I can only deduce that recollection of past lives would help because Gautama's own account of how he attained enlightenment, which included his recollection of past lives, is repeated a number of times in the Tipitaka. It is also repeated, with different phrasings, as an exhortation to others (monks) to do likewise.

In his account, Gautama goes on to say: "Thus I remember diverse former habitations in all their modes and detail. This, Brahman, was the first knowledge attained by me in the first watch of the night; ignorance was dispelled, knowledge arose, darkness was dispelled, light arose, even as I abided diligent, ardent, self-resolute."

After gaining such insights into his previous lives, Gautama then apparently directed his mind to the knowledge of the passing away and arising of beings. With his purified Deva-vision surpassing that of ordinary men, he was able to comprehend that beings are sometimes mean, excellent, comely, ugly, well-going, ill-going, according to the consequences of their deeds.

I can only imagine that in order to reach Nibbana one has to first experience the processes of reincarnation for oneself, not just read about it, as I do.

[trd]

There is no proof that Buddha made these statements, to say nothing of any subsequent interpretations over time. There is so much confusion about these teachings.

How can right view, right speech, right aspiration etc be practised? Have you thought about this. Any attempt to do so just results in a modification of behaviour which in itself is ever changing and therefore an illusion. The fact is that there is no path, because what you really are is right here now. If you believe in the literal words attributed to Buddha, you will have problems with what I say. But if you rely totally on your own experience, you may discover that much of what he may have said does make sense. but not in the way you first thought. Right action, right speech etc is an automatic consequence of becoming established in silent awareness. There is no effort involved. Just in the same way that it is unnecessary to keep repeating, I am a man, I am a man to remind you that you are a man, it is unnecessary to exert any effort at all in the field of action once you have transcended it.

As for reincarnation, if the mind/body mechanism is impermanent and just consists of the perishable aggregates, then what is it exactly that appears in the next incarnation?

[fabianfred]

On the night of his enlightenment, the Buddha was already well practiced in the Jhanas. He could easily reach the stage where past lives can be seen. A normal person can view up to seven past lives, but the Buddha being a Boddhisatta, who had perfected himself over countless lives, had the power to see past lives without limit. He looked back and back and back and said 'a starting point was not evident.' This knowledge meant he knew the reality of rebirth in the various realms.

Next he used the 'divine eye' to see beings in all the different realms, and know the actions and karma which caused them to be born into those realms, and could see them taking rebirth in other realms as a result. He thus knew the truth of karma and rebirth. Then the cycle of dependant origination came to him and reversing it knew the way to stop rebirth. Thus he became Arahant and all knowing self-enlightened Buddha (Sammasambuddha).

The Noble Eightfold path is not to be practiced in steps but all together.

The recollection of past lives would certainly give a person complete confidence in the reality of rebirth and other realms.... experiential knowledge, rather than just learning, which comes from meditation.

[beautifulthailand99]

"If you meet the Buddha, kill him"

This was said by the Zen monk Lin-chi (in Japan he was later called Rinzai) to a group of monks in the context of a meditation retreat. He was exhorting the monks not to get lost in holy visions or even pious daydreaming about buddhas, saints, or even their own family members. He wanted them to drop all such grasping and be fully present and awake to reality in the actual living moment. This was never meant to be taken literally and though it sounds like it goes against respect for the Buddha or family, it is actually pointing to a much deeper and real respect, not just a conventional and conceptual piety but a real awakening that would flower forth into authentic respect and compassion for all.

Here is the full text of what he said:

Followers of the Way, if you wish to see this Dharma clearly, do not let yourselves be deceived. Whether you turn to the outside or to the inside, whatever you encounter, kill it. If you meet the Buddha, kill the Buddha; if you meet the patriarchs, kill the patriarchs; if you meet Arhats, kill Arhats; if you meet your parents, kill your parents; if you meet your relatives, kill your relatives; then for the first time you will see clearly. And if you do not depend on things, there is deliverance, there is freedom! (The Zen Teachings of Rinzai translated by Irmgard Schloegl, Berkeley: Shambhala, 1976, pp. 43-44)

[trd]

This text is well known (at least the bit about killing the Buddha if you should see him). It is cleverly delivered because it is designed to first of all shock and force one to suspend the thought process, but then to contemplate its meaning. It is a profound teaching because it is saying that all things of the mind, body and world (duality) are false. They appear and disappear, are impermanent and cannot be relied on as any kind of truth. So by giving it all up, by surrendering to that which just is, is freedom.

Any past life memories would also constitute that same illusion. Having confidence in past lives is no different to having confidence in this life. Confidence as a reinforcer of belief also appears and disappears as does any other kind of phenomena. I don't believe Buddha made these remarks. I'm sure so much was written in by others and attributed to him after his passing.

The title of this post itself is misleading. It suggests that one has to "reach" nibbana. If one had to go on a journey to get to nibbana that would mean nibbana is separate from oneself, which it cannot be. The idea of a journey or path is a conceptual creation of the mind only. That is why the destruction or killing of the mind as suggested by this famous Zen teaching is essential for liberation.

Edited May 2, 2014 by trd

[RandomSand]

I read a few posts back about "mastering" Jhana. This is wrong thinking, imho.

Considering that everything is said to be Jhana (in a state of nirvana), then radically speaking, consider that Jhana must master YOU ...and not the other way around.

Can you be humble enough to accept such a proposition, not intellectually, but in your whole being ?

Mediate on it and know that trying to be "the master" only entangles you further in Samsara.

What is strength? Ask yourself that question.

Edited May 2, 2014 by RandomSand

[VincentRJ]

(1)There is no proof that Buddha made these statements, to say nothing of any subsequent interpretations over time. There is so much confusion about these teachings.

(2) How can right view, right speech, right aspiration etc be practised? Have you thought about this. Any attempt to do so just results in a modification of behaviour which in itself is ever changing and therefore an illusion. The fact is that there is no path, because what you really are is right here now. If you believe in the literal words attributed to Buddha, you will have problems with what I say. But if you rely totally on your own experience, you may discover that much of what he may have said does make sense. but not in the way you first thought. Right action, right speech etc is an automatic consequence of becoming established in silent awareness. There is no effort involved. Just in the same way that it is unnecessary to keep repeating, I am a man, I am a man to remind you that you are a man, it is unnecessary to exert any effort at all in the field of action once you have transcended it.

(3) As for reincarnation, if the mind/body mechanism is impermanent and just consists of the perishable aggregates, then what is it exactly that appears in the next incarnation?

(1) Can't disagree with that. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, nothing appears to have been written down about Gautama's teachings until 400 years (or more) after his death. That represents an awfully big opportunity for things to get distorted. Some scholars think that the sayings and teachings attributed to Gautama Buddha are most likely not all from one individual, Siddhārtha Gautama, but represent a composite character consisting of stories and teachings from a number of different sages who lived around that time and later.

Not even the dates of Gautama's birth and death are certain. Most historians date his lifetime as approximately 563-483 BC, but other opinions place his death at various dates ranging between 486 BC and 400 BC.

However, the issue of historical accuracy is for another topic. What has been written down is all we have, plus the interpretation of what has been written down, and the guidance of experienced gurus and teachers currently alive.

(2) Yes, I have thought about this. I'm thinking about it right now. The first 5 of those stages must be established before meditation can successfully be undertaken. Notice I mention 'successfully'. The last 3 stages, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration are concerned with meditative practices.

You ask how one can practise right view and right speech etc. Perhaps the difficulty you see is due to slight variations in the translation and interpretations of certain Pali or Sanskrit words. The word 'practise' might not be the best choice of word to use with 'view' or 'understanding'. Perhaps 'study' would be a better choice. But 'practise' is certainly an appropriate word for 'right speech'. Everyone has practised speech from the time he/she was a young child learning to speak for the first time. I speak very little Thai. However, if I wanted to learn Thai, I would have to practise, and in practising I would endeavour to get my pronunciation 'right'.

Of course, when Gautama Buddha referred to ' right speech', I'm fairly confident he did not have correct grammar and correct pronunciation in mind. Rather, he was referring to abstinence from lying, abusive speech, vilification and so on. For some people, refraining from abusive language whenever they get angry, requires mindful practice and restraint. Have I explained that clearly?

If we go back to the very first of these stages, right view (or right understanding), the word 'study' is perhaps more appropriate, as I mentioned earlier. At this very first stage of embarking upon this path to Nirvana, one needs to understand the purpose and value of embarking upon such a path. To achieve this one needs to read a few books on Buddhism and meditation, and/or consult a few a gurus on the topic.

The next stage, 'right aspiration', refers to the practice of developing a firm resolve to follow the path until one has achieved enlightenment. Clearly one cannot have a genuine and honest resolve, if the first stage has not been completed. If one has doubts and misunderstandings about the purpose and the goal, if one's questions have not been satisfactorily answered, if one feels the whole topic is too confusing, and/or unbelievable, it is unlikely that one will progress to the second stage. Have I explained that clearly?

(3) One quality of all religions is that they promote a belief in some sort of invisible spirit. How does one define such a word? Radio waves are invisible, and before the advent of modern science, they were also undetectable. Right at the moment, in the fields of astronomy and astrophysics, there is a huge problem with regards to completely invisible and undetectable 'spirits'. Of course, science doesn't use the word 'spirit'. The terms are 'Dark Matter' and Dark Energy'.

Our current scientific theories, if correct on the very large scale that applies to the universe, implies that 95% of the matter and energy in our universe is currently totally and utterly invisible and undetectable. The scientists are frantically searching for this Dark Matter, but so far not a single particle has been found.

America is currently laying more emphasis, and money, on studying the mind, and developing neuroscience. There is so much we do not know. Is it too fanciful to entertain the notion that there might be some sort of 'spiritual', invisible, and normally undetectable record of each life?

Have I explained that clearly?

[beautifulthailand99]

I've always thought Nibbana / Paradise is here and now or it is nowhere.

[rockyysdt]

Yes, I have thought about this. I'm thinking about it right now. The first 5 of those stages must be established before meditation can successfully be undertaken. Notice I mention 'successfully'. The last 3 stages, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration are concerned with meditative practices.

You ask how one can practise right view and right speech etc. Perhaps the difficulty you see is due to slight variations in the translation and interpretations of certain Pali or Sanskrit words. The word 'practise' might not be the best choice of word to use with 'view' or 'understanding'. Perhaps 'study' would be a better choice. But 'practise' is certainly an appropriate word for 'right speech'. Everyone has practised speech from the time he/she was a young child learning to speak for the first time. I speak very little Thai. However, if I wanted to learn Thai, I would have to practise, and in practising I would endeavour to get my pronunciation 'right'.

Of course, when Gautama Buddha referred to ' right speech', I'm fairly confident he did not have correct grammar and correct pronunciation in mind. Rather, he was referring to abstinence from lying, abusive speech, vilification and so on. For some people, refraining from abusive language whenever they get angry, requires mindful practice and restraint. Have I explained that clearly?

If we go back to the very first of these stages, right view (or right understanding), the word 'study' is perhaps more appropriate, as I mentioned earlier. At this very first stage of embarking upon this path to Nirvana, one needs to understand the purpose and value of embarking upon such a path. To achieve this one needs to read a few books on Buddhism and meditation, and/or consult a few a gurus on the topic.

The next stage, 'right aspiration', refers to the practice of developing a firm resolve to follow the path until one has achieved enlightenment. Clearly one cannot have a genuine and honest resolve, if the first stage has not been completed. If one has doubts and misunderstandings about the purpose and the goal, if one's questions have not been satisfactorily answered, if one feels the whole topic is too confusing, and/or unbelievable, it is unlikely that one will progress to the second stage. Have I explained that clearly?

Regarding the first five stages, what comes to my mind is that initially our understanding will be at a very coarse level.

We are fortunate to have ethics (coarse level) to guide us in the beginning.

Wisdom (Sanskrit: prajñā, Pāli: paññā):

Right view.

Right knowledge.

Right intention.

Ethical conduct (Sanskrit: śīla, Pāli: sīla):

Right speech.

Right action.

Right livelihood

The practice of Right Speech, Right Action, & Right Livelihood (even at a coarse level) for me results in reduced episodes of shortness of breath, a more relaxed body, & a quieter mind.

By attempting to navigate an ethical life one has less things to worry about or feel guilty for.

The consequence of this is to live with a greater softness of heart.

Living with reduced levels of negative mind set (guilt, anxiety, hatred, jealousy, greed & lack of awareness), ones practice of the last three (Right Effort, Right Mindfulness & Right Concentration) is enhanced.

In other words, practicing wisdom & ethical conduct, even at a coarse level, will facilitate the practice of Concentration, Mindfulness & Effort.

Eventually regular practice of Right Effort, Right Mindfulness & Right Concentration will reveal ever finer levels of Wisdom & Ethical Conduct.

In time Wisdom & Ethical conduct will grow.

Edited May 3, 2014 by rockyysdt

[VincentRJ]

In other words, practicing wisdom & ethical conduct, even at a coarse level, will facilitate the practice of Concentration, Mindfulness & Effort.

Eventually regular practice of Right Effort, Right Mindfulness & Right Concentration will reveal ever finer levels of Wisdom & Ethical Conduct.

In time Wisdom & Ethical conduct will grow.

I would agree. I think there is always a problem in the duality of language as commonly used, or the implied duality in the words we use. We tend to think that something is either good or bad. In reality, there is a continuum between the highest good we can imagine and the lowest 'bad', with most things, situations, or states, falling somewhere between those two extremes.

When I write, "Clearly one cannot have a genuine and honest resolve, if the first stage has not been completed", I see a lack of clarity in what is meant by 'completed'.

If one completes High School before going to university, that does not mean that one has achieved 100% in all the exams in all of the subjects studied. It means one has achieved an acceptable level of proficiency and understanding which is considered sufficient to enable one to benefit from the higher level of difficulty one encounters at university.

I imagine a similar situation would apply to the 8 stages of the Noble Eightfold Path. One might well benefit to some degree from practising meditation before one has mastered or perfected the earlier stages, and the results of such meditative practice might well enable one to achieve greater 'skillfulness' in those earlier stages, which in turn will then permit greater success in the later stages of meditation.

It also seems reasonable and probable that different people possessing different degrees of accomplishment, according to their background, might approach those 8 stages in a different order. For example, I can imagine that a person who has been brought up as a Christian, and who is troubled by the claims for the existence of a single, creator God who can listen to one's prayers and intervene in human affairs, might look towards Buddhism as a more credible and meaningful alternative. Such a person might already have mastered the 3rd stage of 'Right Speech' (having practised 'love thy neighbour' as a Christian).

For such a person, the first and second stages (right view and right aspiration) might become the 2nd and 3rd stages. One has to allow for a certain flexibility here. One should not be too dogmatic.

[trd]

(1)There is no proof that Buddha made these statements, to say nothing of any subsequent interpretations over time. There is so much confusion about these teachings.

(2) How can right view, right speech, right aspiration etc be practised? Have you thought about this. Any attempt to do so just results in a modification of behaviour which in itself is ever changing and therefore an illusion. The fact is that there is no path, because what you really are is right here now. If you believe in the literal words attributed to Buddha, you will have problems with what I say. But if you rely totally on your own experience, you may discover that much of what he may have said does make sense. but not in the way you first thought. Right action, right speech etc is an automatic consequence of becoming established in silent awareness. There is no effort involved. Just in the same way that it is unnecessary to keep repeating, I am a man, I am a man to remind you that you are a man, it is unnecessary to exert any effort at all in the field of action once you have transcended it.

(3) As for reincarnation, if the mind/body mechanism is impermanent and just consists of the perishable aggregates, then what is it exactly that appears in the next incarnation?

(1) Can't disagree with that. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, nothing appears to have been written down about Gautama's teachings until 400 years (or more) after his death. That represents an awfully big opportunity for things to get distorted. Some scholars think that the sayings and teachings attributed to Gautama Buddha are most likely not all from one individual, Siddhārtha Gautama, but represent a composite character consisting of stories and teachings from a number of different sages who lived around that time and later.

Not even the dates of Gautama's birth and death are certain. Most historians date his lifetime as approximately 563-483 BC, but other opinions place his death at various dates ranging between 486 BC and 400 BC.

However, the issue of historical accuracy is for another topic. What has been written down is all we have, plus the interpretation of what has been written down, and the guidance of experienced gurus and teachers currently alive.

(2) Yes, I have thought about this. I'm thinking about it right now. The first 5 of those stages must be established before meditation can successfully be undertaken. Notice I mention 'successfully'. The last 3 stages, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration are concerned with meditative practices.

You ask how one can practise right view and right speech etc. Perhaps the difficulty you see is due to slight variations in the translation and interpretations of certain Pali or Sanskrit words. The word 'practise' might not be the best choice of word to use with 'view' or 'understanding'. Perhaps 'study' would be a better choice. But 'practise' is certainly an appropriate word for 'right speech'. Everyone has practised speech from the time he/she was a young child learning to speak for the first time. I speak very little Thai. However, if I wanted to learn Thai, I would have to practise, and in practising I would endeavour to get my pronunciation 'right'.

Of course, when Gautama Buddha referred to ' right speech', I'm fairly confident he did not have correct grammar and correct pronunciation in mind. Rather, he was referring to abstinence from lying, abusive speech, vilification and so on. For some people, refraining from abusive language whenever they get angry, requires mindful practice and restraint. Have I explained that clearly?

If we go back to the very first of these stages, right view (or right understanding), the word 'study' is perhaps more appropriate, as I mentioned earlier. At this very first stage of embarking upon this path to Nirvana, one needs to understand the purpose and value of embarking upon such a path. To achieve this one needs to read a few books on Buddhism and meditation, and/or consult a few a gurus on the topic.

The next stage, 'right aspiration', refers to the practice of developing a firm resolve to follow the path until one has achieved enlightenment. Clearly one cannot have a genuine and honest resolve, if the first stage has not been completed. If one has doubts and misunderstandings about the purpose and the goal, if one's questions have not been satisfactorily answered, if one feels the whole topic is too confusing, and/or unbelievable, it is unlikely that one will progress to the second stage. Have I explained that clearly?

(3) One quality of all religions is that they promote a belief in some sort of invisible spirit. How does one define such a word? Radio waves are invisible, and before the advent of modern science, they were also undetectable. Right at the moment, in the fields of astronomy and astrophysics, there is a huge problem with regards to completely invisible and undetectable 'spirits'. Of course, science doesn't use the word 'spirit'. The terms are 'Dark Matter' and Dark Energy'.

Our current scientific theories, if correct on the very large scale that applies to the universe, implies that 95% of the matter and energy in our universe is currently totally and utterly invisible and undetectable. The scientists are frantically searching for this Dark Matter, but so far not a single particle has been found.

America is currently laying more emphasis, and money, on studying the mind, and developing neuroscience. There is so much we do not know. Is it too fanciful to entertain the notion that there might be some sort of 'spiritual', invisible, and normally undetectable record of each life?

Have I explained that clearly?

Thank you VincentRJ. You have explained your views very clearly. Unfortunately that is all they are. Views. You took the trouble to ask not once, but twice whether you were explaining yourself clearly. No doubt it feels satisfying that you have been able to articulate these views that have formed from an intellectual understanding based on reading some books on Buddhism. I"m sorry if this sounds harsh, but your reply tells me all I need to know about your understanding of practice. Now the real work begins. Listen carefully. Everything I write is based on direct experience. At the risk of repeating myself too much, can I suggest you read my posts going back over the last three months in this forum where I speak extensively about the importance of meditation practice. Practice is primary, scripture is secondary.

Let is examine some of your statements. We can disregard your comment that right speech does not have anything to do with grammar or pronunciation. We are not in kindergarten here.

You say that "the first 5 of those stages must be established before meditation can successfully be undertaken. Notice I mention 'successfully".

Think carefully about these words you have written and realise that they mean nothing. It's so very easy to have some kind of notion that satisfies what we think of as an understanding, but when you actually examine the words, they have no substance in terms of direct experience. What you have said in that one sentence actually holds the key to making some real progress. When you realise that you don't know what you mean by the word "established" and you don't know what you mean when you talk about meditation being "successfully undertaken" you can move on. When I say in Paragraph 2 that these stage are a natural consequence of becoming established in your true nature, I am not quoting from books. It is my direct experience. You should pay attention.

I see that in your subsequent post you say,"I imagine a similar situation would apply to the 8 stages of the Noble Eightfold Path......"

You use the word "imagine" three times in that post.

However you do begin to question what you have written when you say,

When I write, "Clearly one cannot have a genuine and honest resolve, if the first stage has not been completed", I see a lack of clarity in what is meant by 'completed'.

This is a very good sign. It will force you to direct your attention inwards to the silence within, to the source which is emptiness.

You can spend a lifetime reading books and formulating all kinds of opinions, ideas, concepts and "imaginings". It is never ending and you will achieve nothing. At some stage you must realise that you have to abandon all ideas. Actually my response a few posts back on the Zen teaching about killing the Buddha sums it up. You must eliminate the mind completely. That is all you have to do. I will continue to bang on about this until my last breath and still people will not listen. You must experience samadhi and become established in it. It may take many years of dilligent and regular practice. There are no shortcuts. But that is all you have to do. Then you will have peace of mind. There will be no more seeking. Life will flow naturally and spontaneously and will be underpinned by bliss. Try and understand this. There is no thought that appears in the mind, or thing that is perceived by the senses that can ever be the truth. It has never happened and will never happen. To be here now and to be here as you are in your unconditoned state is all that is required.