Checks begin on foreigners working in Phuket dive industry

[Khun Robert]

Have been diving in this region for over 30 years mainly wreck diving down to 60 meters. I have dived with about every nationality under the sun including some Thai nationals who were proficient, however, the safety culture in Thailand or rather lack of it makes it problematic to have a Thai in charge of the safety of tourist divers some of whom have little experience and are only marginally qualified.

When incidents occur under water in a dive situation problems become exponential if proper actions are not taken immediately. This Tour Guide scenario is just so typical of this myopic nation who want to provide income for their nationals at the expense of safety for their customers.

Blame your dive organisation for certifying the Thai Nationals.

A certified dive master, and I do not care which organization, should be able to take care when a problem ac cured.

If they are not it is to blame the organization and not a nationality

I've been to a PADI IDC in Thailand and I was amazed that all participants get their Instructor licence.

I've heard, so maybe not the truth, but as long as it is not standards breaking you can not fail.

Going to 5 meters down and not capable to notice that a customer has his snorkel in his mouth and not his regulator??

Yes, you guess IDC passed, not breaking standards.

I've been diving with customers who could not clear a partially filled mask, their foreign instructor told them: "You can always go to the surface for that".

I spend 30 minutes on 2 meters to teach them and they did have an Open Water Certificate.

I dive regular with Thais and I must say: What they show me underwater for marine life, the way they handle their bouyency I wish I had the same Thai teacher.

I dive with GUE Thai divers, using triimix. Believe me they have more understanding and control about safety than me.

But they can not get a job as dive master, because the farang are better according to the dive centers.

..

[stevenl]

I live in Isaan, was going to dive Thailand, forget it, Philippines here I come. What bullship

What exactly is bullshit? I am in the industry, and would really like it if the illegal companies were terminated and people without workpermit would be done something about as well. For the whole of Thailand diving please.

I'm not in the industry, but do recreational dives here and I rarely if ever see a Thai divemaster or instructor on any of the boats I've ever been on. I'm curious as to how many qualified underwater tour instructors there actually are working in the industry. Are there enough to sustain the industry as it is now? What's your guessimate on this? Furthermore, I'd be curious if a poll was taken, how many foreign dive students feel safe with a Thai underwater tour guide. I'd dare to say the percentage would be quite low.

I really do see this clampdown as payback for the whistle being blown on the bib perps for rocking their boat ( ie, infringing on their nice little money maker they had going).

Thai divemasters there probably are enough, on many of the bosts they are working already. And mostly they are good, quite often better guides than the foreign instructors, and guests do feel safe with them. Instructors is a different story, there are not enough and guests prefer foreigners. For chinese and japanese this is different, they in general prefer their own people more than westerners tend to do.

I don't think this is payback, which there no doubt will be. But that will be later and much more vicious I tjink.

[falkan]

That foreigners still invest in Thailand is a mystery to me! You can't own your own business 100% and if you work outside you office or province you are violating your work permit rules . Bullshit rules.

boi investment 100%, but yes not for cheap charlie's..

A small diving business cannot afford a BOI. It’s mostly for big export orientated companies.

but in your statement you wrote -You can't own your own business 100%- so you are wrong then

[deepcell]

mai pen rai, tea money good day, every thing okay!

[Khun Robert]

Every Year the European Union sponsoring a project to teach 25 Thais English and Scuba Dive Instructor on PADI levels,

This project is started after Tsunami in 2004. I think there are much more Thai instructors then the owners of dive centers want to see.

I never heard from a customer the question: "which nationality is my dive master" and even I never see a customer check the certification of their guide.

They trust the sales person.

I agree with the level of service the Thai dive masters provide. A very good job, better than I see from most farang staff, who only come to work for

a short time to have a paid holiday. They do not care customers or the dive center, they are leaving in a few months anyway to perform their diving next winter

in another tropical paradise.

[BudRight]

When they can't find any more of these safety conscious fluent in English super Thais they'll get idiots who don't know what they are doing and people will die.

[EBlair48]

Did you even read what you quoted? Halion is claiming expert dive skills himself , not taking novices to 60 meters.

And I agree, all the comments on Thais and their infamous lack of care are dead on [ pun intended]

I guess if you want to live in Thailand, you have to put up with unfair and stupid policies. I almost wish all foreigners would strike,,just shut down and see how many tourists keep coming when Thai run businesses are all that are left.

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Have been diving in this region for over 30 years mainly wreck diving down to 60 meters. I have dived with about every nationality under the sun including some Thai nationals who were proficient, however, the safety culture in Thailand or rather lack of it makes it problematic to have a Thai in charge of the safety of tourist divers some of whom have little experience and are only marginally qualified.

When incidents occur under water in a dive situation problems become exponential if proper actions are not taken immediately. This Tour Guide scenario is just so typical of this myopic nation who want to provide income for their nationals at the expense of safety for their customers.

Who in their right mind would take a "marginally qualified diver" to 60 meters

Sorry

I already know it is "Super Person" AKA "know it all" farang !

[EBlair48]

I think they mean BOI investments are good 100 % as in a safe, hassle free business but small foreign business are hassled to death.

That foreigners still invest in Thailand is a mystery to me! You can't own your own business 100% and if you work outside you office or province you are violating your work permit rules . Bullshit rules.

boi investment 100%, but yes not for cheap charlie's..

A small diving business cannot afford a BOI. It’s mostly for big export orientated companies.

but in your statement you wrote -You can't own your own business 100%- so you are wrong then

[ericthai]

That foreigners still invest in Thailand is a mystery to me! You can't own your own business 100% and if you work outside you office or province you are violating your work permit rules . Bullshit rules.

boi investment 100%, but yes not for cheap charlie's..

A small diving business cannot afford a BOI. Its mostly for big export orientated companies.[/size]

but in your statement you wrote -You can't own your own business 100%- so you are wrong then

Right and BOI is not only for big companies. I opened my company with only $1 million USD and was able to get BOI.

Most of our customers are in Thailand, exports are only about 20% of our business.

You guys talk like you know everything when really you don't know and just guess.

[Rimbuman]

That foreigners still invest in Thailand is a mystery to me! You can't own your own business 100% and if you work outside you office or province you are violating your work permit rules . Bullshit rules.

Exactly, What good is this going to do for the economy and the overall quality of services being offered ???? Zero. How competent will the average Thai be in offering these type of services ???

I a sort of remember an article that a group of divers were left on there own kilometers away because the captain took of for some vague reason.

Monkey incompetent idiots, really people in the world (potential tourists) should be more aware of these insane facts and rules in this country.

[Phuketboy]

Maybe a little off topic, but how many other industries are there where businesses are getting away with employing foreign workers with the correct number of Thai's for the work permits? For example in order to get 1 work permit a company must employ 4 Thai workers. I guess they need to investigate all the construction jobs then because most construction is done by Burmese (not Thai) workers. Another is the Russian nightclub scene. These clubs for example have at least 10 Russian girls dancing and working, but there is no way in hell there are 40 Thai staff to accompany them. Maybe this needs to be all brought up at the investigation and see where it goes. Anyone else know of other businesses/industry that seem to get away with the work permit issue?

Edited April 2, 2014 by Phuketboy

[BestBitterPhuket]

That foreigners still invest in Thailand is a mystery to me! You can't own your own business 100% and if you work outside you office or province you are violating your work permit rules . Bullshit rules.

Completely agree. The reality is that Thailand doesn't want you here, they want your money but not you, all of the evidence points to this. This is all a roundabout way of trying to make it as difficult as possible but without losing your money and keeping you as restricted as possible. For locals the rules are different of course.

Probably get shot down for this but it is my opinion that Thailand has to create bullshit rules because without the "unlevel" playing field Thailand could not compete. If you look at the 2 big food grocers in Thailand BIG C and Tesco both are foreign owned,, this is very unusual for a country with over 70 million people to not have it's own local, dominant supermarket.

i don't know why the foreign money doesn't go elsewhere nowadays, there are other investment opportunities in Asia with easier and more friendly working practices.

As mentioned a million times across many posts the corruption and nonsense is what will hold Thailand back,, it needs to grow up or fall behind.

Suthep has promised reforms, reforms and reforms. Come end of April and everything will be better, including the lives of foreign dive masters.

[HiSoLowSoNoSo]

Boi investment 100%, but yes not for cheap charlie's..

A small diving business cannot afford a BOI. Its mostly for big export orientated companies.[/size]

but in your statement you wrote -You can't own your own business 100%- so you are wrong then

Right and BOI is not only for big companies. I opened my company with only $1 million USD and was able to get BOI.

Most of our customers are in Thailand, exports are only about 20% of our business.

You guys talk like you know everything when really you don't know and just guess.

This topic is not about foreign ownership rules of Thai corporations, and I do know that a BOI company can be 100% foreign owned and If you're an American, you can use the Amity Treaty which allows US persons and companies to own 100% of a Thai corporation. Do you think it’s realistic for a diving company to invest (only) 1 million US$ in a dive shop in Phuket were there are already over 100 other shops and most of the dive sites have been trashed by the local commercial fishing fleet and were the local police extort your foreign staff that are needed for running the business safely because local staff are not available?

[jacko45k]

Free beer tomorrow.

Indirectly.

[Muhendis]

So the Atus complains to the governor about police extortion and the police are not investigated. 'Tis all them foreigners again........

Not true, the alledged extortion is being investigated.

I'm glad to hear about the extortion being investigated, but it was not in the OP.

Where did this information come from?

I want to read the follow-up story of the punishment meted out to the extortionists (if any).

[stevenl]

So the Atus complains to the governor about police extortion and the police are not investigated. 'Tis all them foreigners again........

Not true, the alledged extortion is being investigated.

I'm glad to hear about the extortion being investigated, but it was not in the OP.

Where did this information come from?

I want to read the follow-up story of the punishment meted out to the extortionists (if any).

See other threads here on tv about this subject.

[Somtamnication]

Quite disturbing that when one complains to the police, the complainants are investigated. This country has a lot to learn.

[harrycallahan]

New expression to enter the reporting lexicon: "the guide swam from the scene of the accident".

[stevenl]

Quite disturbing that when one complains to the police, the complainants are investigated. This country has a lot to learn.

They should have thought this through, and made sure at least their company setup is legal. Which for quite a few it is not, also affecting their workpermits.

[tiffanystoyz]

Better yet check tor buses most are Russian owned or are they up to date with bribe payments?

[keestha]

Is not the situation in the diving industry complicated because of the fact that many customers prefer to be instructed in their own language ( German, French, Swedish, Japanese, whatever) and not in English?

[NamKangMan]

Have been diving in this region for over 30 years mainly wreck diving down to 60 meters. I have dived with about every nationality under the sun including some Thai nationals who were proficient, however, the safety culture in Thailand or rather lack of it makes it problematic to have a Thai in charge of the safety of tourist divers some of whom have little experience and are only marginally qualified.

When incidents occur under water in a dive situation problems become exponential if proper actions are not taken immediately. This Tour Guide scenario is just so typical of this myopic nation who want to provide income for their nationals at the expense of safety for their customers.

He is a prime example that backs up your post.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-26847366

Just today, 7 dead and 19 injured in Bangkok. The lack of education, safety standards and the love of money, all played a part.

How could the dive industry be entrusted to Thai's?

It's not a question based on race. It's a question based on a culture of putting the baht above all - even life itself.

Another example are heavy vehicle drivers, particularly buses. How many accidents have we seen, all over Thailand? How many dead, maimed and injured? We have seen how easy it is to get a driving/riding licence here.

Imagine the same ease of getting a dive certificate, and then being responsible for the lives of tourist.

Edited April 3, 2014 by NamKangMan

[stevenl]

Is not the situation in the diving industry complicated because of the fact that many customers prefer to be instructed in their own language ( German, French, Swedish, Japanese, whatever) and not in English?

Which is why instructors can and should have a workpermit.

[stevenl]

Better yet check tor buses most are Russian owned or are they up to date with bribe payments?

No, Thai owned, the Russian companies are simply renting them.

[NamKangMan]

Quite disturbing that when one complains to the police, the complainants are investigated. This country has a lot to learn.

They should have thought this through, and made sure at least their company setup is legal. Which for quite a few it is not, also affecting their workpermits.

For every one work permit issued to a foreigner, four Thai's must be employed.

Surely those foreigners working without a work permit, or illegally "underwater tour guiding" are still employing Thai's, either directly, or indirectly.

Now, just because some corrupt police can not extort money from some foreigners, four times more Thai's are going to be out of work.

There's something wrong when a corrupt police officer can cause many of his fellow Thai's to indirectly lose their livelihood.

The labour laws in Thailand need a massive overhaul. It's one of the many reasons Thailand struggles to progress.

Just look at Singapore to see what could be acheived if more forward thinking labour laws were implemented here.

[stevenl]

Quite disturbing that when one complains to the police, the complainants are investigated. This country has a lot to learn.

They should have thought this through, and made sure at least their company setup is legal. Which for quite a few it is not, also affecting their workpermits.

For every one work permit issued to a foreigner, four Thai's must be employed.

Surely those foreigners working without a work permit, or illegally "underwater tour guiding" are still employing Thai's, either directly, or indirectly.

Now, just because some corrupt police can not extort money from some foreigners, four times more Thai's are going to be out of work.

There's something wrong when a corrupt police officer can cause many of his fellow Thai's to indirectly lose their livelihood.

The labour laws in Thailand need a massive overhaul. It's one of the many reasons Thailand struggles to progress.

Just look at Singapore to see what could be acheived if more forward thinking labour laws were implemented here.

The shouting here is done by several companies. Some of the hardest shouters: 2 workpermits, no 4 mio paid up capital, no real Thai staff; 1 workpermit, while he goes diving she does all internet business without workpermit, no real Thai staff; diveshop manager caught working illegally, case is now in the courts, claims passport is held in Chalong police station.

Just a few examples.

Yes, the labour law could do with a good overhaul, but in this specific case: the companies should have looked at themselves, and not opened themselves up to extortion by operating illegally and even worse, by an illegal company setup.

And yes, the definitions in the workpermits need clarification, which hopefully will happen now, so instructors can work at several addresses (carrying gear yes or no really is no issue IMO).

I have had quite a few checks here in the shop, and after 5 minutes they leave without any payment from my side. Be legal and you have no problems.

[NamKangMan]

@ stevenl

The problem I see, and I am not in the industry, is you were fine to be operating illegally, if you were prepared to pay police a corrupt payment, on a monthly basis.

Those illegal operators, did not need work permits, therefore do not have to employ four Thai's. Given that the corrupt monthly payment, calculated yearly, is a lot less than the cost of a work permit, proper company structure and the salary of four Thai's, it was financially beneficial for them to work illegally.

Therefore, the corrupt police, effictively created a financial incentive to work in the dive industry, on Phuket, illegally, rather than legally. As you have said yourself, you are legal, and do not pay. They are illegal, and pay. In business, it's normal to minimise your expenses, and if paying bribes is cheaper, I'm sure many chose that method of operation.

So, there must be an obvious financial benefit to be illegal. If it cost more to be illegal, rather than legal, these operators would simply become legal, because it's cheaper.

This corruption now creates an unlevel playing field in the industry, as the illegals may now be able to offer a cheaper service than a legal operator, such as yourself.

Really, it all goes back to what is killing Phuket, and that's corruption.

We basically have corrupt police indirectly in control of a large part of the dive industry on Phuket, taking monthly bribes, which can effect the pricing structure and competitiveness of all operators within the dive industry.

These corrupt police have no idea of things like supply and demand, free market trade etc etc. All they possess is criminality and greed.

Once again, so much power is being held by the corrupt few on Phuket.

I would like to say all illegals should be fined and deported, but we all know that is never going to happen because there is too much corruption money involved.

This little inquiry will disappear and it will be back to business as usual soon enough, and as usual with all things here, no positive change implemented.

Just an outsiders view, looking in.

[stevenl]

@ stevenl

The problem I see, and I am not in the industry, is you were fine to be operating illegally, if you were prepared to pay police a corrupt payment, on a monthly basis.

Those illegal operators, did not need work permits, therefore do not have to employ four Thai's. Given that the corrupt monthly payment, calculated yearly, is a lot less than the cost of a work permit, proper company structure and the salary of four Thai's, it was financially beneficial for them to work illegally.

Therefore, the corrupt police, effictively created a financial incentive to work in the dive industry, on Phuket, illegally, rather than legally. As you have said yourself, you are legal, and do not pay. They are illegal, and pay. In business, it's normal to minimise your expenses, and if paying bribes is cheaper, I'm sure many chose that method of operation.

So, there must be an obvious financial benefit to be illegal. If it cost more to be illegal, rather than legal, these operators would simply become legal, because it's cheaper.

This corruption now creates an unlevel playing field in the industry, as the illegals may now be able to offer a cheaper service than a legal operator, such as yourself.

Really, it all goes back to what is killing Phuket, and that's corruption.

We basically have corrupt police indirectly in control of a large part of the dive industry on Phuket, taking monthly bribes, which can effect the pricing structure and competitiveness of all operators within the dive industry.

These corrupt police have no idea of things like supply and demand, free market trade etc etc. All they possess is criminality and greed.

Once again, so much power is being held by the corrupt few on Phuket.

I would like to say all illegals should be fined and deported, but we all know that is never going to happen because there is too much corruption money involved.

This little inquiry will disappear and it will be back to business as usual soon enough, and as usual with all things here, no positive change implemented.

Just an outsiders view, looking in.

You make the mistake of jumping from 'benefits' to 'financial benefits', there are more reasons.

But in the main I agree with you.

But you can easily take it one step further. On Phuket many companies are fully legal with regards to workpermits, company setup, etc.. In other places, think Phi Phi, Ao Nang, Koh Tao and even Khao Lak, being legal is the exception.

[phanangpete]

And dive instructors will be instructed that they are not allowed to talk to their customers on dry land incase they are giving them information about the dive site, the islands around etc. This work is to be done by thais ! If they have to communicate they should do so , by using sign language, as they do underwater.

Pls remind the Govenor about the number of tourists who come specifically to dive , give numbers and the revenue they bring into Phuket, before he shoots himself in the foot.

It seems to me hes got angry because, he knew all along this scam was going on and now its been made public its payback time, so take it out on the dive companies , it draws attention away from the bib.

Give me a break !!!!

[SanukJoeII]

I will be very short: those that work illegally in the diving industry, screw the world for expats who got all the papers correct! Teachers, dive instructors, what else, working without the correct papers make life difficult for the rest of expats, the majority. Get your papers or stay out of the business, clear as that!

I am 65, live here on correct retirement extension, have a very comfortable double pension, but have to proof each year that I do not work,.... thanks to you guys!

This case is great: illegal workers are extorted by police (to avoid legal action). Then they make the immortal blunder to complain against that same police. So now employment office will check the papers, som nam na. You don't have a WP? Then get out of that job. You got the right papers? Don't worry. Simple as that.