Initiation to be a monk

[Caroline Page]

Can any one help explain to me the reason why so much effort and money is put into the arrangements related to a monk being initiated. I have asked Thai friends (and long living in thailand falang friends) and still don't understand - and genuinely want to

For example, we live in a small village in the south, about 350 Thais and a handful of falang. My husband and I are privileged to be invited to share in the festivities happening in the village, so we attend the funerals, weddings, monk initiation festivities etc - and we really appreciate the opportunity to be involved

We have now been to three monk initiatiation festivities - each one bigger than the last. Last weekend, over 2000 people (the last one we went to was 1500 and the son was only going to be a monk for 1 week!) turned up for three days of ceremonies, parties (three bands, lighting that could no doubt be seen for miles, numerous groups of dancing girls, morning, lunchtime and evening food etc). We were totally exhausted at the end of it (I envy the Thais their capacity to put on huge events and party for so long!) - the culmination of which was the ceremony at the Wat which was super to be involved in and yes, another party in the evening

In this case the son was going to be a monk for three months or thereabouts.

I genuinely do not understand - and want to - why these events are so important, and worthy of such huge scale events (and emotion by the family members - I had tears in my eyes just watching my friend the mother during the process who I don't think was without her tissues for the whole of the period) so if anyone can explain the true importance of such activities to a family and the village community I really would like to know . And will be very grateful to anyone who can explain this

Please help!!!!!!

[I Like Thai]

Because they like doing it.

Edited April 5, 2014 by I Like Thai

[fabianfred]

Parents are held as worthy of great respect in Buddhism. This is because without them we would not have got this very precious human rebirth. Therefore it is merituous to look after them, and very bad karma to cause them to suffer. It is said that the only way we can repay the debt we owe them is, if they are going upon a wrong way, creating bad karma for themselves, and we are able to put them back upon the right track...thus saving them much future suffering.

Monkhood is seen as the high form of merit-making because that is following in the footsteps of the Buddha, our greatest teacher. An ordinary lay person keeps five precepts, one practicing more devoutly 8 precepts, a Novice monk ten precepts, and a monk 227 precepts. A monk therefore ranks high in the Buddhist ranking and worthy of great respect if he follows his rules and tries to give up the usual pleasures....( and if he doesn't is guilty of cheating the people and earns great bad karma.)

The Thais believe that parents who have a son ordained... as a monk or a novice...''climb up to heaven on the robes of their son''. Because women cannot ordain as monks the only chance they get to make a great amount of merit is to have their son ordain for a while.

What used to be done for all the right reasons, is now done out of custom. They think that the more money they spend on the ceremony, or donate to the temple, the more merit they get. This is wrong, but don't expect the monks to tell them this as they have now become so corrupted, and they themselves have grown up in this environment, that they often do not know what is correct, and are just happy to get lots of donations.

Temples now charge quite a lot of money for a family wanting to ordain their son as a novice or a monk.... absolutely wrong! All the partying and subsequent drinking and noise which disturbs people, including gambling, drunkenness, dancing girls, etc. have nothing to do with the ordination, and in fact cause the people to lose any merit they might have made and possibly also create bad karma for themselves.

But don't expect any Thais to agree with me....they will say that as a farang i know nothing...since they were born Buddhist and I was not....even when i was a monk that was often their attitude (certainly that of many Thai monks.)

[Caroline Page]

thank you Fabian Fred. I am really grateful for the explanation .... thanks for taking the trouble to respond

[Brucenkhamen]

Some people like parties and will always take the opportunity to have one when it arises, so the ordination is just an excuse for a party, this is as true of Thai's as anyone else.

Some people in Thailand like to throw big parties because they feel it's an opportunity for them to gain face, so the same people would probably do the same at a wedding for example.

I've been to a couple of ordinations, they were sober affairs for a couple of dozen family and friends, much reverence and respect. But these were serious practitioner ordaining in forest monasteries. Mind you one of these was a popular village headman and to discourage a big crowd the abbot held the ordination at 3am.

[Caroline Page]

One last question. Monks seem to wear different colors of robes. From orange through to brown. Do the colors worn have any significance (other than the saffron/ ochre relationship) in terms of stage of learning etc?

[Brucenkhamen]

One last question. Monks seem to wear different colors of robes. From orange through to brown. Do the colors worn have any significance (other than the saffron/ ochre relationship) in terms of stage of learning etc?

There is no significance to the colour.

Town monks usually have manufactured robes and these will depend on the colour of the chemical dye used, flourescent orange for example. Forest monks usually will make their own robes and dye them with plant and/or chemical dyes, and they re-dye them every couple of weeks, so it depends on the type of dye used it it might change as it fades over the two weeks and gets redyed from potentially a different batch of dye.

[Evilbaz]

This is the dichotomy - on one hand you have the "big face" of a huge three day party with drinking and gambling etc etc leading to the start of the ordainees period of self-effacement ...

But we are mere farangs who "don't understand" except that we see the irony that is unseen by Thais.

[recycler]

Apart from the original meaning these events tend to be more of a pissing contest between the families in the village on who can have the biggest party.

As soon as they have enough money the game shifts to Mercedes Benz cars and on...

[issanaus]

Hi Caroline, I think that you might find "access to insight" a useful place to find the answer to some of the questions that you may have from your observations of Thai culture and its interaction with Buddhism.

In relation to the questions asked you might find this article interesting. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/ariyesako/layguide.html#clothing

The Bhikkhus' Rules

A Guide for Laypeople

compiled and explained by

Bhikkhu Ariyesako

© 1999

[bankei]

These ceremonies were not around at the time of the Buddha, but came later, gradually evolving. There are probably little Buddhist aspects to it, but the Buddha was supposed to be a prince originally and was surrounded by vast wealth - which he gave up. So the candidate is carried around the temple on people's shoulders like a prince, umbrellas are held above and there is generally a bit of luxury so that the candidate can renounce this.

Usually just before going into the hall (Bot) the candidate throws coins into the crowd, symbolising the giving up of wealth.

Bankei

[bankei]

One last question. Monks seem to wear different colors of robes. From orange through to brown. Do the colors worn have any significance (other than the saffron/ ochre relationship) in terms of stage of learning etc?

Nope. It appears certain temple monks all wear the robes of the same colour. Generally the more bright orange the more city the monk is. So called forest monks (who generally are not forest monks!) like to wear brownish robes and wouldn't be caught dead in a bright orange outfit - fashion basically.

[FM505]

Its just business...

[Suradit69]

Some people like parties and will always take the opportunity to have one when it arises, so the ordination is just an excuse for a party, this is as true of Thai's as anyone else.

Some people in Thailand like to throw big parties because they feel it's an opportunity for them to gain face, so the same people would probably do the same at a wedding for example.

I've been to a couple of ordinations, they were sober affairs for a couple of dozen family and friends, much reverence and respect. But these were serious practitioner ordaining in forest monasteries. Mind you one of these was a popular village headman and to discourage a big crowd the abbot held the ordination at 3am.

"Some people in Thailand like to throw big parties because they feel it's an opportunity for them to gain face, so the same people would probably do the same at a wedding for example."

Yes, by comparison,a major event for many people in the US is a wedding. People stage weddings, usually with a tenuous religious connection, mainly to save face and to out-do everyone else they know. Now the average wedding costs circa $30,000 (baht 966,000), and some marriages only last a few months or years. Quite often the whole drunken orgy kicks off in a church that the bride and groom have never been in before, chosen mainly for the size of the stained glass windows and available parking space. The loving couple promise God they'll be together "until death do them part." Hardly anyone laughs out loud when they say that.

If a wedding isn't a real blow-out, the parents of the bride will be ridiculed and shunned by everyone they know and totally lose face, which is a major problem in farang world.

In the past the bride would save her dress for her daughter(s) to use, but now many brides recycle the same drip-dry dress fairly often themselves. Some people even gain frequent-wedding miles to get discounts at future weddings.

[finnomick]

Your friend, the mother, always had tissues in her hand throughout the whole procedure.......probably wondering where the heck she'll get the money to pay for it all

[belg]

its all about FACE

welcome to thailand

[hookedondhamma]

One last question. Monks seem to wear different colors of robes. From orange through to brown. Do the colors worn have any significance (other than the saffron/ ochre relationship) in terms of stage of learning etc?

Nope. It appears certain temple monks all wear the robes of the same colour. Generally the more bright orange the more city the monk is. So called forest monks (who generally are not forest monks!) like to wear brownish robes and wouldn't be caught dead in a bright orange outfit - fashion basically.

Not really. Many are introduced to the darker jackfruit color as that is what has been the standard.

Nothing like living in an area with many wild animals of different types only to potentially find yourself in a dangerous situation due to your flourescent orange robes that scream 'look at me, look at me!'

I wish a certain monk hadn't been wearing his bright orange robes a couple years' back when an elephant easily saw him, became frightened by him and trampled him to death.

when the Somdet of tue dhammyut order recently proclaimed for monks of it to switch to the orange color, no one in the forest temples took word of it. Go figure.

There were some great posts by Thais on other internet forums that brought up info from luang dta maha bua as well as ajahn mun. If one does the searching they'll come across them, though one must be able to read thai.

no problem going to the city and switching colors to conform to the standards of that temple.

On a side note, sometimes robes come out the opposite of what one intends them to be I.e old dye which is labeled as this color but packaged as another.

The colors that are used in the present probably represent tue colors which monks were able to extract from the available materials around them.

chem. Colors were later introduced by the powers that be as they were more consistent and rich in color (thailand). There's an article on this as well (google).

But colors which they wear I wouldn't call fashion. There is depth to it.

Edited April 10, 2014 by hookedondhamma

[OmarZaidMD]

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Some people like parties and will always take the opportunity to have one when it arises, so the ordination is just an excuse for a party, this is as true of Thai's as anyone else.

Some people in Thailand like to throw big parties because they feel it's an opportunity for them to gain face, so the same people would probably do the same at a wedding for example.

I've been to a couple of ordinations, they were sober affairs for a couple of dozen family and friends, much reverence and respect. But these were serious practitioner ordaining in forest monasteries. Mind you one of these was a popular village headman and to discourage a big crowd the abbot held the ordination at 3am.

Hi,,, Yes... I agree with this posting and have had the same experience in a forest monastery. Very sober. It was actually a 'right of passage' for the young man, my step-son, who, immediately married and took off on his life's little ship feeling more secured and wrothy. I have been tod by others that in many areas, this is the only way a young man can get enough money to marry, etc etc. Some take the initiation soberly, for others it is just a custom.

Would have a lot more meaning though if they didn't return to a normal life of insobriety and petty one-ups-manship. Oh well, i'm sure Gautamamhas better things to day than keep up with such mornic fettishes. Cheers . . .

[Gandtee]

What I don't think has been mentioned is the envelopes given by the guests to the parents. My wife just attended my Thai nephews ordination ceremony in Bangkok and my next door relative gave her Bt1000 in an envelope to give to his parents. My contribution? I never ask. I leave Thai things to her. All of this is about face and what goes around comes around, be it ordinations, weddings and funerals. One of the mysteries of the orient? I do consider it an honour to be invited, whatever the reason.

[Greg Nixon]

There are so few wholesome get togethers that this is an excuse to get together. Sick people going to hospital is another excuse - the whole family goes and even sleeps over no matter what the illness. Funerals are another one. Over the top on some of these. I decided to forego the funerals when I realised there were umpteen relatives about to die and even the young were offing themselves. I had one niece die and no one in Thailand passed the hat for her. So as the long as you keep giving they will keep taking and your wife's status will increase but for you expect bupkiss because YOU ARE NOT THAI. When you pass they will mourn the passing of your check book.

Do you see any art festivals ? Do you see any music festivals ? Do you see any concerts ? How about opera ? How about the movie theatre in the local town ? Where is your bowling alley ? How about the local speedway ? Where are the big exhibitions ? Any big world wide musicals might make it to Bangkok but that's it.

Religion is often tied up with money and in a poor country there is a huge expenditure on religion that makes people feel better but really produces little else but another temple. We all know there should be a lot more of these. It even encourages some ( the monks) to do nothing but beg. This is not exclusive to Thailand, it is a world wide phenomena. But it is not the only waste of money in Thailand. Look around and I bet you can guess some others.

I prefer to give my money to people I know who could use some help and God knows there are plenty of them. I like to see the difference I make.

[ggt]

Be happy that you are invited to an intimate Thai family tradition...you are not Thai...you are not a Monk...try not to over analyze...just enjoy the festivities...immerse yourself in Thai culture...expand your experiences...

[khaowong1]

Parents are held as worthy of great respect in Buddhism. This is because without them we would not have got this very precious human rebirth. Therefore it is merituous to look after them, and very bad karma to cause them to suffer. It is said that the only way we can repay the debt we owe them is, if they are going upon a wrong way, creating bad karma for themselves, and we are able to put them back upon the right track...thus saving them much future suffering.

Monkhood is seen as the high form of merit-making because that is following in the footsteps of the Buddha, our greatest teacher. An ordinary lay person keeps five precepts, one practicing more devoutly 8 precepts, a Novice monk ten precepts, and a monk 227 precepts. A monk therefore ranks high in the Buddhist ranking and worthy of great respect if he follows his rules and tries to give up the usual pleasures....( and if he doesn't is guilty of cheating the people and earns great bad karma.)

The Thais believe that parents who have a son ordained... as a monk or a novice...''climb up to heaven on the robes of their son''. Because women cannot ordain as monks the only chance they get to make a great amount of merit is to have their son ordain for a while.

What used to be done for all the right reasons, is now done out of custom. They think that the more money they spend on the ceremony, or donate to the temple, the more merit they get. This is wrong, but don't expect the monks to tell them this as they have now become so corrupted, and they themselves have grown up in this environment, that they often do not know what is correct, and are just happy to get lots of donations.

Temples now charge quite a lot of money for a family wanting to ordain their son as a novice or a monk.... absolutely wrong! All the partying and subsequent drinking and noise which disturbs people, including gambling, drunkenness, dancing girls, etc. have nothing to do with the ordination, and in fact cause the people to lose any merit they might have made and possibly also create bad karma for themselves.

But don't expect any Thais to agree with me....they will say that as a farang i know nothing...since they were born Buddhist and I was not....even when i was a monk that was often their attitude (certainly that of many Thai monks.)

Right on the money Fred.. Thanks..

[khaowong1]

One last question. Monks seem to wear different colors of robes. From orange through to brown. Do the colors worn have any significance (other than the saffron/ ochre relationship) in terms of stage of learning etc?

No, most monks wear the color of robes their abbot and temple likes.. that's all.

[metaben]

I went to such an affair. I felt privileged to be invited and happy to participate and observe.

BUT when the 10 course meal, dancing coyotes, whiskey and deafening music kicked in it blew my mind.

All this while the two freshly ordained Monks watched from there lone table in front of their sole glass of water... This, I thought, was the true test of their resolve.

[fdbob]

Parents are held as worthy of great respect in Buddhism. This is because without them we would not have got this very precious human rebirth. Therefore it is merituous to look after them, and very bad karma to cause them to suffer. It is said that the only way we can repay the debt we owe them is, if they are going upon a wrong way, creating bad karma for themselves, and we are able to put them back upon the right track...thus saving them much future suffering.

Monkhood is seen as the high form of merit-making because that is following in the footsteps of the Buddha, our greatest teacher. An ordinary lay person keeps five precepts, one practicing more devoutly 8 precepts, a Novice monk ten precepts, and a monk 227 precepts. A monk therefore ranks high in the Buddhist ranking and worthy of great respect if he follows his rules and tries to give up the usual pleasures....( and if he doesn't is guilty of cheating the people and earns great bad karma.)

The Thais believe that parents who have a son ordained... as a monk or a novice...''climb up to heaven on the robes of their son''. Because women cannot ordain as monks the only chance they get to make a great amount of merit is to have their son ordain for a while.

What used to be done for all the right reasons, is now done out of custom. They think that the more money they spend on the ceremony, or donate to the temple, the more merit they get. This is wrong, but don't expect the monks to tell them this as they have now become so corrupted, and they themselves have grown up in this environment, that they often do not know what is correct, and are just happy to get lots of donations.

Temples now charge quite a lot of money for a family wanting to ordain their son as a novice or a monk.... absolutely wrong! All the partying and subsequent drinking and noise which disturbs people, including gambling, drunkenness, dancing girls, etc. have nothing to do with the ordination, and in fact cause the people to lose any merit they might have made and possibly also create bad karma for themselves.

But don't expect any Thais to agree with me....they will say that as a farang i know nothing...since they were born Buddhist and I was not....even when i was a monk that was often their attitude (certainly that of many Thai monks.)

I don't get the monks, I was at a cremation yesterday in Phitcit and some the monks where walking around smoking and after the burn the monks had a party and music and a smoking and drinking, now I don't know if this normal or not but wasn't a good look to me, there was about 40 monks at the burn.

[fabianfred]

Smoking is not forbidden to monks..... it is an attachment they should try to do without. Drinking (and I presume you mean alcohol here) is definitely wrong and goes against the fifth precept which even lay buddhists should try to keep...

[Bkungbank]

It's like a baby baptize ritual after that a small party was thrown for friends and relative who come long way just a small gratitude but here the party gets bigger as Thai like ' sanook ' .