Keeping cool with a jacket on

[JoePai]

How sensible - so simple and easy

LINK

[RubberSideDown]

I actually had an earlier thread going about these things (I ordered them off eBay)- I should note I ended up giving them away- while I have no doubt with the right gloves and jacket they would work great, all my bike-specific jackets have tight closures (snaps and/or zippers) at the wrist that won't close properly with the Ventz in place- also, I only ride with full-gauntlet gloves, and the gauntlet portion doesn't fit properly under the clip.

I still think they're worth a shot if they work with your gear set-up, but they didn't work for me.

[mania]

for sure they would add air

but, for me heat is only ever a problem

at full stops

These wont help me

[ll2]

A mesh jacket helps more than this.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Edited April 5, 2014 by ll2

[RubberSideDown]

A mesh jacket helps more than this.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Only to a point- a properly-constructed mesh jacket needs to have a decent amount of non-mesh material in the impact areas of the arms or its safety will be compromised as far as abrasion-resistance is concerned.

I did buy these things hoping they would extend the temperature range in which I could wear leather, though, thinking the added circulation would help- I still think they would, but only with a looser jacket than I choose to wear.

[AllanB]

Lads, did you not read the opening sentence..."Summer is coming very fast and already temperatures are soaring" and beside this statement is the union jack flag.....So "soaring" means almost into double figures.

Why would you think anything suitable for a scorching English summer would be of any possible use here? You will be fitting snow tyres next...and before you say the guy is in Normandy, okay UK+1c.

If anything is to be done about making clothing for keeping cool on a bike in the tropics, it will have to be specific to this market, developed by someone who understands the problems here.

Will it happen in my lifetime?

[RubberSideDown]

^

Which of course ignores the fact that clothing has been made for the brutal (and, in fact, much hotter than Thailand) summer riding season in places like many areas of the US, South America, Australia, etc.

These 'Ventz' would actually have a reasonable effect with the correct gear- I can make this assessment having actually tried them out here in LOS- they're not for someone who's geared-up for sport riding, but for more casual riding or commuting they can indeed provide some cooling effect even at very moderate speeds- at a stop they do nothing, of course.

[RubberSideDown]

Except for the color (you might find a lighter one), this is the jacket you want, Allan- it's the 'skeleton jacket' you've been waiting for. I have the Icon version of it- it's basically light mesh used to hold pads in place- it offers no real abrasion resistance, but at low speeds that's not as much of a concern. There is no real happy medium- abrasion resistance requires leather or textile of reasonable thickness, and impact areas can't be perforated for they'll tear- either you're willing to deal with the heat of it or you're not.

I've tried pretty much everything as far as hot-weather clothing is concerned, and this is the coolest option as far as full pads go- even the fact it's black doesn't make much difference as the material is so thin and porous- it feels like I'm riding without a jacket at all (which is basically the case)- I hardly ever utilize it, though, as if I were to go down hard, the pads could potentially tear away, but they'd be there for the initial impact- it's only for the absolute hottest days, and it works.

The Alpinestars Bionic 2 jacket, which can be found online for less than $200- I wouldn't recommend it for sport riding or fast touring, but it's WAY better than nothing:

Edited April 5, 2014 by RubberSideDown

[DualSportBiker]

I have a safari waistcoat from Fieldsheer. It is filled with a water retentive gel that releases water vapour as it evaporates. I soak the thing for several hours, wipe away the excess water and wear it under an airflow jacket.

It works great, and I feel very cool and significantly less tired after a long day. However, I get to smell slightly damp and musty, which is sub-optimal, but not a show stopper. The cooling effect lasts 3+ hours after which I re soak it for 10 mins...

There are Aussie made neck coolers of the same material and they work in the same way. A combo of the two would be great, but I have never followed through asking anyone to bring me a couple up...

Sent - how is not that important...

[RubberSideDown]

^

I'm looking into the new cooling vests that have some sort of liquid/gel in a compartment like yours- I think the perfect one will be developed pretty soon.

I've got an EVS CTR cooling vest, but once it's soaked it drenches you, including the inside of your jacket and down your pants- I won't wear it with anything leather, but it does work as advertised and keeps you cooler through the evaporative effect.

[AllanB]

Except for the color (you might find a lighter one), this is the jacket you want, Allan- it's the 'skeleton jacket' you've been waiting for. I have the Icon version of it- it's basically light mesh used to hold pads in place- it offers no real abrasion resistance, but at low speeds that's not as much of a concern. There is no real happy medium- abrasion resistance requires leather or textile of reasonable thickness, and impact areas can't be perforated for they'll tear- either you're willing to deal with the heat of it or you're not.

I've tried pretty much everything as far as hot-weather clothing is concerned, and this is the coolest option as far as full pads go- even the fact it's black doesn't make much difference as the material is so thin and porous- it feels like I'm riding without a jacket at all (which is basically the case)- I hardly ever utilize it, though, as if I were to go down hard, the pads could potentially tear away, but they'd be there for the initial impact- it's only for the absolute hottest days, and it works.

The Alpinestars Bionic 2 jacket, which can be found online for less than $200- I wouldn't recommend it for sport riding or fast touring, but it's WAY better than nothing:

Yes, in silver I would go for that, it may not look like that with me inside it though. I bought a S/H silver jacket already off ebay.uk and a new yellow one for the missus, we shall see how they fair when I bring them out here.

Actually I would have thought abrasion resistance was the most important feature of a biker's jacket, never broken a bone, but would guess it is better than being flayed.

I would like to get some suitable boots too, for both of us as your feet tend to cop it in an off.

Actually there is another safety problem with a black jacket, people cant see you, day or night you need high visibility colours a growing trend in the west.

Edited April 6, 2014 by AllanB

[AllanB]

^

I'm looking into the new cooling vests that have some sort of liquid/gel in a compartment like yours- I think the perfect one will be developed pretty soon.

I've got an EVS CTR cooling vest, but once it's soaked it drenches you, including the inside of your jacket and down your pants- I won't wear it with anything leather, but it does work as advertised and keeps you cooler through the evaporative effect.

Do you know what material it is made from?

Trouser squelching doesn't appeal at all...........

[RubberSideDown]

^^

Abrasion resistance is very important in a jacket, but it demands two things- thicker material in impact areas (which makes it warm regardless of color or fabric) and double stitching with a line hidden between the fabric so it doesn't fray and open up in a slide (which makes it expensive as it has to be done by hand). The problem with cheaper jackets is that they tend to tear easily due to low-quality stitching. This is why there really isn't a cool, cheap jacket.

For actual motorcycle boots that you can walk around in and offer reasonable (but not ideal protection) I would recommend a pair of previous-generation Alpinestars SMX-1 boots (I actually just took a ride wearing mine)- they're a low boot (not much higher than a work boot) but offer the same lower protection as the entire SMX line (one of the best in the business). They've just been discontinued and can be found quite cheaply (though they'll soon be gone)- I got mine for $100, which was a steal (shipping to LOS was $60, which kind of killed the savings, but if you can order them somewhere else you can save the shipping cost)- they're way better than any other non-motorcycle-specific boot, but don't look like motorcycle boots.

Edited April 6, 2014 by RubberSideDown

[RubberSideDown]

^

I'm looking into the new cooling vests that have some sort of liquid/gel in a compartment like yours- I think the perfect one will be developed pretty soon.

I've got an EVS CTR cooling vest, but once it's soaked it drenches you, including the inside of your jacket and down your pants- I won't wear it with anything leather, but it does work as advertised and keeps you cooler through the evaporative effect.

Do you know what material it is made from?

Trouser squelching doesn't appeal at all...........

'Super absorbent polymer' (whatever that is) according to Revzilla- I can dig mine out and check the label if you really want to know.

There are better products out there- I got mine for free with a big order- it would have been $40, and the new, better vests cost way more than that.

[AllanB]

^^

Abrasion resistance is very important in a jacket, but it demands two things- thicker material in impact areas (which makes it warm regardless of color or fabric) and double stitching with a line hidden between the fabric so it doesn't fray and open up in a slide (which makes it expensive as it has to be done by hand). The problem with cheaper jackets is that they tend to tear easily due to low-quality stitching. This is why there really isn't a cool, cheap jacket.

For actual motorcycle boots that you can walk around in and offer reasonable (but not ideal protection) I would recommend a pair of previous-generation Alpinestars SMX-1 boots (I actually just took a ride wearing mine)- they're a low boot (not much higher than a work boot) but offer the same lower protection as the entire SMX line (one of the best in the business). They've just been discontinued and can be found quite cheaply (though they'll soon be gone)- I got mine for $100, which was a steal (shipping to LOS was $60, which kind of killed the savings, but if you can order them somewhere else you can save the shipping cost)- they're way better than any other non-motorcycle-specific boot, but don't look like motorcycle boots.

I doubt if there anything that can be stitched by hand that cannot be done by machine, but even so Chinese labour costs are still very low.

I watched a video on expedition preparation and the guy made a very valid point about boots. "Boots should do more than one thing", meaning they have to be reasonably comfortable to walk in.

[RubberSideDown]

^

As far as the stitching goes, double stitching is labor-intensive and takes much longer, and requires more skill by the craftsman- it's not a matter of running a line of stitches in a few seconds and moving on- it's the folding of the material that's most difficult, as most machines can't go through that many layers (which I saw first-hand when I had some gear tailored in the States).

It depends on the requirements for the boot- touring boots should be comfortable to walk in, but track/sport-riding boots are really only going to feel comfortable on a bike- I've got three sets of boots that vary in comfort when I'm off the motorcycle, but they all feel pretty good when I'm on it- the less comfortable they are, generally the more protective they are.

[AllanB]

^

As far as the stitching goes, double stitching is labor-intensive and takes much longer, and requires more skill by the craftsman- it's not a matter of running a line of stitches in a few seconds and moving on- it's the folding of the material that's most difficult, as most machines can't go through that many layers (which I saw first-hand when I had some gear tailored in the States).

It depends on the requirements for the boot- touring boots should be comfortable to walk in, but track/sport-riding boots are really only going to feel comfortable on a bike- I've got three sets of boots that vary in comfort when I'm off the motorcycle, but they all feel pretty good when I'm on it- the less comfortable they are, generally the more protective they are.

I have some first hand experience on the matter of machining and when we make our animal harnesses, our fairly humble machine goes through up to 9 layers of heavy polyester webbing, plus two layers of polyester reinforced PVC. Our machining is a neat as anything on a motorcycle jacket.... oh, my company in the UK is www.LargeAnimalRescue.co.uk. if you have sick horse, or a recumbent cow.

They make machines that will do virtually anything, double stitching included, the only reason they do things by hand is volume, perhaps prestige, normally one and the same thing.

I will look for a pair of boots in the UK this summer, I can never find shoes here size 45/46, so not much choice with boots. Thanks for the tip though.

[RubberSideDown]

^

As I said, I've seen sewing machines get hung up on multiple layers of textile and leather using heavy-duty thread (according to the tailor, the thickness of the thread was the primary issue and he finished it off by hand). If it's so easy to do proper double-stitching, it begs the question of why none of these cheap Chinese companies bother to do it (I can look at a jacket and know right away if it's worth wearing)- it would certainly bolster their image and make their products not only worth buying, but would also measure up to CE-standards of abrasion resistance.

[RubberSideDown]

This is proper double safety-stitching (from the arm of my Vanson jacket)- note how there is no exposed thread, and a full layer of leather would have to be worn away to get to it in the event of a slide- there's no way this level of craftsmanship can be exhibited by some untrained assembly-line worker- this is a pricey hand-made jacket, but the money spent on it shows in the details (even the perforations line up from one side to the other).

If you're concerned with abrasion-resistance, this is the type of construction you want to see in your gear, but I never see it in the cheap stuff:

Edited April 6, 2014 by RubberSideDown

[AllanB]

This is proper double safety-stitching (from the arm of my Vanson jacket)- note how there is no exposed thread, and a full layer of leather would have to be worn away to get to it in the event of a slide- there's no way this level of craftsmanship can be exhibited by some untrained assembly-line worker- this is a pricey hand-made jacket, but the money spent on it shows in the details (even the perforations line up from one side to the other).

If you're concerned with abrasion-resistance, this is the type of construction you want to see in your gear, but I never see it in the cheap stuff:

image.jpg

First of all machinists are rarely untrained and buried stitching is nothing special, a simple machine setting. Some are trained for speed, others for accuracy depending on the product/price and, I guess machinist. I am somewhere in the middle and our machines are very basic forward/reverse, as it all we need for the job we do.

As I said before the reason it is hand sewn and therefore expensive is that they are made in small numbers, which wouldn't warrant a special machine and neat stitching commands a high retail price.

That said I just had a new seat made for my bike, it cost just 400baht all up and I have yet to see anything as good anywhere, but TIT.

I am not criticising your jacket, or what you paid, so don't be so defensive, just pointing out some facts about machining. There are some very clever machines out there...Any we digress.

Oh, I didn't see you other post, if a machine is "hung up" it is either badly set up, or the wrong machine for the job, or of course, the operator is lacking.

The reason they don't make these in China (yet) is they are into numbers for everything they do (money), but don't fool yourself they don't have similar (or better) skills in China, when it comes to needle-craft. I have seen some right old crap come out of the US too, so there is good and bad everywhere. I don't think China is interested in image, just making money.

Edited April 6, 2014 by AllanB

[RubberSideDown]

^

Of course there's crap in the US- there's crap everywhere if the price point is low enough. I've seen a lot of gear, and it's very unusual to see fully hidden safety-stitching (especially with leather)- most good (not great like my Vanson) jackets feature one hidden stitch and two exposed stitches about 1mm from the seam (this is very good construction and I've got some nice jackets made in this style)- you don't see quality like what I posted above except in their very top-line stuff, which is priced accordingly (usually well over $600 where their mid-range stuff is around $500).

'Hiding a stitch' for fashion and doing it for safety are two different things- if it were 'nothing special' and a 'simple stitch setting' and they already have machines in place (as they use this stitching on their highest-end stuff), why wouldn't manufacturers like Dainese and Alpinestars stitch all their leather using that process? Do you think it's because they don't want to invest in better machinery and use their best tailors to hand-stitch their most expensive stuff? That's not a sarcastic question- I would actually like to know why I can't find this quality on anything reasonably priced, and I've looked at a lot of jackets.

My point is that few makers (including the high-end Italian gear manufacturers) use this process on most of their apparel as it makes the final product so pricey- if it were easy to do, a second-tier manufacturer could easily raise their standing by adopting it and pumping it out for $400 or so for leather (and much less for textile)

What Chinese companies are interested in is getting their stuff to the market as cheaply as possible where there's an uneducated consumer-base that sees a jacket with pads on it and doesn't realize there's a quality difference.

[AllanB]

^

Of course there's crap in the US- there's crap everywhere if the price point is low enough. I've seen a lot of gear, and it's very unusual to see fully hidden safety-stitching (especially with leather)- most good (not great like my Vanson) jackets feature one hidden stitch and two exposed stitches about 1mm from the seam (this is very good construction and I've got some nice jackets made in this style)- you don't see quality like what I posted above except in their very top-line stuff, which is priced accordingly (usually well over $600 where their mid-range stuff is around $500).

'Hiding a stitch' for fashion and doing it for safety are two different things- if it were 'nothing special' and a 'simple stitch setting' and they already have machines in place (as they use this stitching on their highest-end stuff), why wouldn't manufacturers like Dainese and Alpinestars stitch all their leather using that process? Do you think it's because they don't want to invest in better machinery and use their best tailors to hand-stitch their most expensive stuff? That's not a sarcastic question- I would actually like to know why I can't find this quality on anything reasonably priced, and I've looked at a lot of jackets.

My point is that few makers (including the high-end Italian gear manufacturers) use this process on most of their apparel as it makes the final product so pricey- if it were easy to do, a second-tier manufacturer could easily raise their standing by adopting it and pumping it out for $400 or so for leather (and much less for textile)

What Chinese companies are interested in is getting their stuff to the market as cheaply as possible where there's an uneducated consumer-base that sees a jacket with pads on it and doesn't realize there's a quality difference.

So you have read a brochure and now you are an expert in manufacturing too..well that figures.

Have a nice day.

[RubberSideDown]

So you have read a brochure and now you are an expert in manufacturing too..well that figures.

Have a nice day.

^

Wow- it actually looked like you might be able to offer some real insight into the manufacturing process of gear, and, of course, you end up with your usual contribution- absolutely nothing of value.

If nothing else, you're extremely consistent. I do find it hilarious that you can sarcastically call me an 'expert' when I made observations and had questions based on my knowledge of gear (a subject I know a lot about) and was trying to get some info from a purported expert such as yourself, and you had no answers. I wish I had read a brochure as it would have shed more light than you're obviously able to. This thread was the first time I thought, 'Maybe Allan might actually know what he's talking about for a change'- nope...

I was in no way trying to take any shots at you above, and actually hoped for the information I asked for from a supposed professional- I should have known better than to expect anything other than crap from you, though- it's your specialty- my mistake.

Thanks for living up to my expectations, if nothing else.

You have a nice day as well...

Edited April 6, 2014 by RubberSideDown

[BSJ]

Thailand big bike riders need air-conditioning from Australia.

[H1w4yR1da]

for sure they would add air

but, for me heat is only ever a problem

at full stops

These wont help me

And therein, as the Bard once said, lies the rub.

A mesh jacket helps more than this.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Yeah, but as you're sliding along the asphalt and the mesh is melting onto your skin.....

The Alpinestars Bionic 2 jacket, which can be found online for less than $200- I wouldn't recommend it for sport riding or fast touring, but it's WAY better than nothing:

I used to ride with a guy on a Hypermotard who wore this type of gear. Turned out it was pretty useless as after lowsiding on some gravel, the pads shifted and he was left with a nasty case of road-rash. Better than nothing? Yeah, but not much.

So you have read a brochure and now you are an expert in manufacturing too..well that figures.

Have a nice day.

Unnecessarily snarky reply! Attack the message, not the messenger.

[RubberSideDown]

^

Yeah- ideally it goes under a motocross jersey, but if you want to run as cool as possible while still sporting some padding, it's pretty much the minimum if you don't want to wear leather or textile.

Edited April 8, 2014 by RubberSideDown