Nickthegreek Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Hi, I am trying to get an idea as to why stainless gates are so dam expensive, getting prices of 50 - 60000 baht for 5 metres X 2000. I have looked at steel prices and that is silly cheap per metre so I am assuming stainless is not that much more expensive? Any ideas advice. Thank s Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody1 Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Stainless Steel is much more expensive than Carbon Steel to start with, then there are significant price variations depending on the grade of stainless used / selected, the consumables (welding rods, wires, gasses, etc) required for the fabrication process are also more expensive than carbon consumables. More than likely the fabrication company will also be paying their welders a higher rate as stainless is a more difficult material to work with (weld, etc). Added to this is the fact carbon steel gates would probably be grit / shot blasted after fabrication and painted (quite cheaply, and can hide a multitude of sins), whereas the stainless gates would be treated very differently, welds would probably be polished, then the gates would be pickled and passivated, this is carried out for aesthetic and anti-corrosion purposes (and more expensive than blasting and painting normally). Hope this helps explain the quoted price difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickthegreek Posted April 8, 2014 Author Share Posted April 8, 2014 Woody, I am sure you are right in your explanation of works for the western world, l have never seen the finish you mention on standard steel done here, it's purely primer and paint. I am hoping that someone here can give me a more cost related quote as I think it's very high for Thailand Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody1 Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Woody, I am sure you are right in your explanation of works for the western world, l have never seen the finish you mention on standard steel done here, it's purely primer and paint. I am hoping that someone here can give me a more cost related quote as I think it's very high for ThailandMate, the materials and consumables (the majority of the cost) will be roughly the same all over the world. Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickthegreek Posted April 8, 2014 Author Share Posted April 8, 2014 Found the supplier of stainless wholesale, going to open a new business. .lovely profit margin! Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredob43 Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 (edited) Some time ago I had a S/S gate 5x2.5mt 4 fence panels all around 3+ mt, a 2x3.5mt extension to my car port and a German remote Electric motor, and few other bit's for the side wall then just to round it off two large burglar bars for windows everything in top quality S/S there is by the way 3 grades all in 90thBt I don't live anywhere near Pattaya may I suggest that it's called Pattaya prices for the farang. Apologies Just checked with the G/L and she said I paid 97th 90th was the price for a Chinese motor. Edited April 8, 2014 by fredob43 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoonman Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 (edited) Stainless (304) is nearly 3 times the price of Mild Steel (SS400) here in Thailand, this is sheet prices not tubing. Stainless tubing is even more exxy again. Am happy to pay mild steel prices for stainless though if someone can point out the cheap supplier. Edited April 8, 2014 by Spoonman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VocalNeal Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Have you got as price for an equivalent steel gate? Did your 60,000 include the motor drive? Stainless is about 3.5 times the price of mild steel and as has been said flaws cannot be hidden. Also the welding speed for thin wall SS tubing is slower so SS gates take longer to fabricate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickthegreek Posted April 8, 2014 Author Share Posted April 8, 2014 Found the supplier today of wholesale stainless? Whilst it'd more expensive, comes in 6 m lengths, my rough figures have it at materials 20th baht and labour 10th. I don't live in Pattaya, I am in Rayong and the wife went in to talk No knowledge of me Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredob43 Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 Found the supplier today of wholesale stainless? Whilst it'd more expensive, comes in 6 m lengths, my rough figures have it at materials 20th baht and labour 10th. I don't live in Pattaya, I am in Rayong and the wife went in to talk No knowledge of me Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app So 30th that's about right and they still wanted 5/60th!!! as I said Pattaya prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickthegreek Posted April 8, 2014 Author Share Posted April 8, 2014 Fredob43 where are you just out of interest Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoonman Posted April 8, 2014 Share Posted April 8, 2014 how did you calculate the labour at 10,000 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickthegreek Posted April 9, 2014 Author Share Posted April 9, 2014 Spoonman, for ease let's say 500 baht a day 2 men taking 5 days and I think that's being generous! Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoonman Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 How do you get 10,000 from that calculation ? What are they using to weld the stainless together with .... Fresh Air ? what are the powering the welder with..... sunlight ? what are they polishing the stainless with .... dirt ? Lots of variables and consumables missing from your assumed price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickthegreek Posted April 9, 2014 Author Share Posted April 9, 2014 I have priced all the parts needed and that's my assumption! Feel free to prove me wrong , I am sure you will find my basic cost price is not far off.. Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickthegreek Posted April 9, 2014 Author Share Posted April 9, 2014 Rods are 6 baht fyi Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoonman Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 I have priced all the parts needed and that's my assumption! Feel free to prove me wrong , I am sure you will find my basic cost price is not far off.. Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Not need for me to prove you wrong. am just merely trying to understand the costings given the information (or lack there off) that is being drip fed. Can you give me some material specs of the stainless and also the supplier. Sounds like theirs prices are better than the one I currently use. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickthegreek Posted April 9, 2014 Author Share Posted April 9, 2014 What parts specifically and I will do my best to accommodate Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickthegreek Posted April 9, 2014 Author Share Posted April 9, 2014 Broad over view stainless in 6 metre lengths prices around 1000 baht - 5000 baht dependant on thickness all this was top grade stainless, like I said if you do the math on the size I want it's no where near 60 k baht. .planning a new business and I mean that! Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VocalNeal Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Spoonman, for ease let's say 500 baht a day 2 men taking 5 days and I think that's being generous! Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app OK so that is what they get paid but what about the boss. How does he make his money? Does he have an office and a secretary? Salesman? Air conditioning? A Truck? If you start your business how will you be paid? Your staff will need to be paid even if you don't have work for them everyday. Rods are 6 baht fyi Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app If you are using stick welding you will have a lot of polishing to do! All the welds I've seen on ornate stainless gates are autogenous, that is done without filler rod using TIG. Does your price for stainless from the wholesaler include polishing or not? Just asking? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody1 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 What grade would, "top grade" be? You mention welding rods being 6THB, are these rods compatible with the, "top grade" stainless? FYI, rods (MMA / SMAW welding process) wouldn't be the ideal way to go, too much wastage, a lot more work involved in the cleaning and dressing areas later, and too easy for your welders to put down the back of their pants for their little foreigners. TIG or MIG / MAG would give far better results, but the initial purchase of the equipment would be more expensive. Regarding your quoted cost of 6m lengths, apart from thickness, already mentioned, diameter would be a huge cost variable. Now I suppose you know what diameters and thicknesses you require for each design and gate size, as a designer with the relevant engineering knowledge or a computer program has proved your design calculations are correct and acceptable? Apart from your quoted prices of raw materials and welding rods being very much on the low side, you'll also find other consumables / tools (iron free cutting and grinding discs, iron free wire brushes, etc) to be used on stainless steel far more expensive than their carbon steel counterparts. Add to all these the cost of a subcontractor to pickle and passivate your finished gates (you want get many orders for aesthetically pleasing gates with 304, 308, 316, 6m x 38.1mm, product of Korea written all over them!), including transportation to and from the subcontractors, I think you may have overlooked a few things. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robblok Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Spoonman, for ease let's say 500 baht a day 2 men taking 5 days and I think that's being generous! Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app OK so that is what they get paid but what about the boss. How does he make his money? Does he have an office and a secretary? Salesman? Air conditioning? A Truck? If you start your business how will you be paid? Your staff will need to be paid even if you don't have work for them everyday. Rods are 6 baht fyi Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app If you are using stick welding you will have a lot of polishing to do! All the welds I've seen on ornate stainless gates are autogenous, that is done without filler rod using TIG. Does your price for stainless from the wholesaler include polishing or not? Just asking? Good points Neal, often people who have never run a business look at the profit margin and think great. They forget about investment / marketing and all the other things that need be paid from the income. As an accountant with many clients I know better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickthegreek Posted April 9, 2014 Author Share Posted April 9, 2014 I don't disagree, my point is the profit margin is excessive ! One of the other posters makes that clear, profit is not a dirty word but it seems that this market has a very nice income from what I can see, in Rayong all these business es have a wait time and lots of ongoing work Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickthegreek Posted April 9, 2014 Author Share Posted April 9, 2014 I have and do run businesses here! Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickthegreek Posted April 9, 2014 Author Share Posted April 9, 2014 Woody, are they actually working to western standard s? My gut feeling is its welded polished and fitted! I will investigate this further, if this is indeed done here then of course I am missing additional costs, the nice thing is these forums always have experts , l know nothing of welding, but Richard Branson knew nothing about running an airline.. Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robblok Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 I don't disagree, my point is the profit margin is excessive ! One of the other posters makes that clear, profit is not a dirty word but it seems that this market has a very nice income from what I can see, in Rayong all these business es have a wait time and lots of ongoing work Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app If that is the case then the margin is not high enough others would step in doing the same stuff because obviously there is demand enough. Supply is the problem, either its real hard to do or the margins are not high enough. Remember Thais are great at copying. You might have overlooked a few things.. without knowing details you might not take into account everything. That is my guess anyway unless we are speaking about a cartel that demand too high prices. I could be totally wrong but if i listen to technical people on this forum there seems to be a lot more to do then just material and labor. I am just a simple accountant who knows that there are often a lot of hidden costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesseFrank Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Spoonman, for ease let's say 500 baht a day 2 men taking 5 days and I think that's being generous! Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Thinking is a dangerous matter if you haven't got any experience with the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickthegreek Posted April 9, 2014 Author Share Posted April 9, 2014 Rob sure, it would be interesting to see the price variances across Thailand, incidentally just been watching videos on tig welding seems it takes practice! Not a degree. I doubt it's a cartel but I will through into the mix and to honest it's what got me started, my wife has an old school friend who sells granite in Pattaya, another massive margin! She had her house done by her business associate with a gate and 6 windows all for 30 k baht, that was at cost, same people for a gate quoted us 50 k baht yesterday. Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robblok Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 Rob sure, it would be interesting to see the price variances across Thailand, incidentally just been watching videos on tig welding seems it takes practice! Not a degree. I doubt it's a cartel but I will through into the mix and to honest it's what got me started, my wife has an old school friend who sells granite in Pattaya, another massive margin! She had her house done by her business associate with a gate and 6 windows all for 30 k baht, that was at cost, same people for a gate quoted us 50 k baht yesterday. Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Yes that is always the problem knowing when something is inflated and not. I have the same problem. For me its really hard to know what is real and what is not. Even harder to find good labor for construction (im non technical so I cant supervise). So it makes things hard. But i just think that if things have really high margins people would jump into it because you see Thais copy many things. But many things like this require skill and a high entrance fee (materials and equipment) to keep people out. But seriously I often seen margins of 60% and still not much profit at the end for the company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody1 Posted April 9, 2014 Share Posted April 9, 2014 (edited) Woody, are they actually working to western standard s? My gut feeling is its welded polished and fitted! I will investigate this further, if this is indeed done here then of course I am missing additional costs, the nice thing is these forums always have experts , l know nothing of welding, but Richard Branson knew nothing about running an airline.. Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app Nick, we're not talking about subsea gas lines, etc, but to achieve an acceptable finished product, in this case gates which are aesthetically pleasing, not going to fall over injuring someone, and not going to start corroding as soon as we have our first downpour, then there are minimum requirements in terms of design, material and consumable selection, fabrication practices, and preservation. Without taking these into account the finished product won't be worth a thing Mate.PS, I have been in the fabrication industry all my working life, welding all types of exotic materials, thru to welding inspection, and quality control. Edited April 9, 2014 by Woody1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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