Slain Thai general's widow vows to continue fight for justice

[kimamey]

So, you'll stop accusing Abhisit/Suthep of being personally responsible as there has been no definitive proof or a court ruling which states who is responsible?

If they were not accused they wouldn't be going to court, so No, I will not stop accusing them of being personally responsible for signing orders for the use of live ammunition and the use of snipers which was a disproportionate response to the threat faced.

There have been no summonses to any members of the UDD as being responsible for the death of Romklao.

Now do you understand the difference?

Yes I do. The UDD leaders were 'brought' to court to hear the charges of terrorism which seemed to cover some grenade lobbing fun as well.

"disproportionate response to the threat faced." --> grenades lobbed on military

Now I really understand that you'll wriggle like a worm on a hook or argue till the cows come home, so let it be. Hope you at least enjoyed Songkran.

Notwithstanding your obsession with grenades, may I draw your attention to the 16 odd inquests of civilians that have taken place so far

Amongst these civilians the deaths have included some UDD supporters. Grenade "incidents" have not figured in any of the inquests. The army were found responsible for their deaths. Ergo the army did not have the excuse of grenades being lobbed at them to cover up their "disproprtionate response to the threat faced". Were grenades being lobbed at them when they shot dead 6 civilians, including two medics, at the Wat?

And this is in the inquests carried out so far.Grenades caused 6 deaths, rubl, 5 army. 1 civilian in two separate incidents Yet you continue with this faintly nauseating defence of an army that killed 80 plus civilians. Do you think the use of snipers and live fire zones are an appropriate response? Sadly, I think you do.

I'm not wriggling, rubl, but you should be, with embarrassment, at the very least.

I think you might have both missed a point here.

Robert Amsterdam has tried to suggest that the ROE breached UN guidelines for law enforcement agencies and those acting as such during situations such as these but I think the military had gone beyond that by then.

I also looked at the Emergency Decree on Public Administration in Emergency Situation, B.E. 2548 (2005) but it seems a little unclear to me as it mentions military action being acceptable as long as it's within the rules and regulations but I can't at moment see what they are unless it's referring to outside (possibly UN) rules. If the actions were within those rules as set out in the emergency decree then it could get difficult as that will also include Thaksin as the PM who counter signed it. We will have to wait and see.

None of that affects the killings so far investigated as they were carried out in contravention of the ROE as far as I can tell so are the responsibility of the soldiers who fired the shots and maybe those giving orders on the ground. As things stand we'll be waiting a long time to find out about that as the army are being protected by the government.

[whybother]

Did you miss all the inquests where the army were found responsible for killing unarmed civilians? Thats what I was talking about. When you come back with evidence that a civilian killed by the army was armed and posing a threat to the the soldiers that shot them I will condemn that person and rightly so.

In the meantime your argument lacks substance. Yes the army were attacked by people who were armed - the question is, was anyone of these armed people killed by the army or was it mainly unarmed civilians or peopled armed at the most with a catapult - are you suggesting they posed a big enough threat to be shot dead?

The question was, should the army have been armed with live ammunition? Given the that the red shirts were armed with live ammunition, I would suggest that the it's only fair that the army should be as well.

Unless you're suggesting that the red shirts weren't armed?

[rubl]

If they were not accused they wouldn't be going to court, so No, I will not stop accusing them of being personally responsible for signing orders for the use of live ammunition and the use of snipers which was a disproportionate response to the threat faced.

There have been no summonses to any members of the UDD as being responsible for the death of Romklao.

Now do you understand the difference?

Yes I do. The UDD leaders were 'brought' to court to hear the charges of terrorism which seemed to cover some grenade lobbing fun as well.

"disproportionate response to the threat faced." --> grenades lobbed on military

Now I really understand that you'll wriggle like a worm on a hook or argue till the cows come home, so let it be. Hope you at least enjoyed Songkran.

Notwithstanding your obsession with grenades, may I draw your attention to the 16 odd inquests of civilians that have taken place so far

Amongst these civilians the deaths have included some UDD supporters. Grenade "incidents" have not figured in any of the inquests. The army were found responsible for their deaths. Ergo the army did not have the excuse of grenades being lobbed at them to cover up their "disproprtionate response to the threat faced". Were grenades being lobbed at them when they shot dead 6 civilians, including two medics, at the Wat?

And this is in the inquests carried out so far.Grenades caused 6 deaths, rubl, 5 army. 1 civilian in two separate incidents Yet you continue with this faintly nauseating defence of an army that killed 80 plus civilians. Do you think the use of snipers and live fire zones are an appropriate response? Sadly, I think you do.

I'm not wriggling, rubl, but you should be, with embarrassment, at the very least.

notwithstanding your obsession of ignoring things you don't like, may I still respectfully ask your attention for the topic here of the widow of the Thai general slain by grenades lobbed on him?

As for "Were grenades being lobbed at them when they shot dead 6 civilians, including two medics, at the Wat?", may I also point out the story of the Canadian vanderGrift who, foolishly running around with the army, got a grenade lobbed on him and a few soldiers, that same 19th of May? Somehow that explains why the soldiers became somewhat more 'soldierlike' in firing at even perceived threats and there were enough that day.

With wriggling fun,

uncle rubl

Edited April 20, 2014 by rubl

[fab4]

If they were not accused they wouldn't be going to court, so No, I will not stop accusing them of being personally responsible for signing orders for the use of live ammunition and the use of snipers which was a disproportionate response to the threat faced.

There have been no summonses to any members of the UDD as being responsible for the death of Romklao.

Now do you understand the difference?

Yes I do. The UDD leaders were 'brought' to court to hear the charges of terrorism which seemed to cover some grenade lobbing fun as well.

"disproportionate response to the threat faced." --> grenades lobbed on military

Now I really understand that you'll wriggle like a worm on a hook or argue till the cows come home, so let it be. Hope you at least enjoyed Songkran.

Notwithstanding your obsession with grenades, may I draw your attention to the 16 odd inquests of civilians that have taken place so far

Amongst these civilians the deaths have included some UDD supporters. Grenade "incidents" have not figured in any of the inquests. The army were found responsible for their deaths. Ergo the army did not have the excuse of grenades being lobbed at them to cover up their "disproprtionate response to the threat faced". Were grenades being lobbed at them when they shot dead 6 civilians, including two medics, at the Wat?

And this is in the inquests carried out so far.Grenades caused 6 deaths, rubl, 5 army. 1 civilian in two separate incidents Yet you continue with this faintly nauseating defence of an army that killed 80 plus civilians. Do you think the use of snipers and live fire zones are an appropriate response? Sadly, I think you do.

I'm not wriggling, rubl, but you should be, with embarrassment, at the very least.

notwithstanding your obsession of ignoring things you don't like, may I still respectfully ask your attention for the topic here of the widow of the Thai general slain by grenades lobbed on him?

As for "Were grenades being lobbed at them when they shot dead 6 civilians, including two medics, at the Wat?", may I also point out the story of the Canadian vanderGrift who, foolishly running around with the army, got a grenade lobbed on him and a few soldiers, that same 19th of May? Somehow that explains why the soldiers became somewhat more 'soldierlike' in firing at even perceived threats and there were enough that day.

With wriggling fun,

uncle rubl

So soldiers becoming "somewhat more soldierlike" in firing at even perceived threats" is your excuse for soldiers shooting unarmed civilians.

It must have really shook up those troops on the tracks above the wat - it shook them so much that they shot and killed 6 unarmed civilians, 2 of them medical workers.

Did it also effect them when they shot the unarmed man at the zoo, or when they shot their own army colleague or the unarmed 16 year old and the unarmed taxi driver standing on the street that had come out of his house to see what was going on or Fabio Polenghi who was only armed with a camera, likewise Hiro Muramoto?

Personally I find your dogged defence of these soldiers quite unsettling. Perhaps I'll follow your advice and ignore things I don't like.

[djjamie]

notwithstanding your obsession of ignoring things you don't like, may I still respectfully ask your attention for the topic here of the widow of the Thai general slain by grenades lobbed on him?

As for "Were grenades being lobbed at them when they shot dead 6 civilians, including two medics, at the Wat?", may I also point out the story of the Canadian vanderGrift who, foolishly running around with the army, got a grenade lobbed on him and a few soldiers, that same 19th of May? Somehow that explains why the soldiers became somewhat more 'soldierlike' in firing at even perceived threats and there were enough that day.

With wriggling fun,

uncle rubl

So soldiers becoming "somewhat more soldierlike" in firing at even perceived threats" is your excuse for soldiers shooting unarmed civilians.

It must have really shook up those troops on the tracks above the wat - it shook them so much that they shot and killed 6 unarmed civilians, 2 of them medical workers.

Did it also effect them when they shot the unarmed man at the zoo, or when they shot their own army colleague or the unarmed 16 year old and the unarmed taxi driver standing on the street that had come out of his house to see what was going on or Fabio Polenghi who was only armed with a camera, likewise Hiro Muramoto?

Personally I find your dogged defence of these soldiers quite unsettling. Perhaps I'll follow your advice and ignore things I don't like.

"Perhaps I'll follow your advice and ignore things I don't like"

Brilliant idea.

So that means no more posts from you to me full of condescension, demonizing, belittling, cherry picking and subject changes.

Next week is looking up already!

Cheers.

BTW - If you decide to stand by your own new principle as much as the UDD stand beside theirs and DO reply then I respectfully ask that you don't demonize me, don't be condescending, don't quote me out of context, don't change the subject and don't cherry pick

[Pimay1]

Did you miss all the inquests where the army were found responsible for killing unarmed civilians? Thats what I was talking about. When you come back with evidence that a civilian killed by the army was armed and posing a threat to the the soldiers that shot them I will condemn that person and rightly so.

In the meantime your argument lacks substance. Yes the army were attacked by people who were armed - the question is, was anyone of these armed people killed by the army or was it mainly unarmed civilians or peopled armed at the most with a catapult - are you suggesting they posed a big enough threat to be shot dead?

The question was, should the army have been armed with live ammunition? Given the that the red shirts were armed with live ammunition, I would suggest that the it's only fair that the army should be as well.

Unless you're suggesting that the red shirts weren't armed?

The question was, should the army have been armed with live ammunition? Given the that the red shirts were armed with live ammunition, I would suggest that the it's only fair that the army should be as well.

That reminds me of an old American indian proverb. Never bring a knife to a gun fight.

[Ricardo]

It would be interesting to see the results of inquests of slain soldiers, what weapons were used, or where the shots came from & who fired them.

Unfortunately the DSI & courts don't appear to have reached those cases yet.

I wonder why not ?

[rubl]

notwithstanding your obsession of ignoring things you don't like, may I still respectfully ask your attention for the topic here of the widow of the Thai general slain by grenades lobbed on him?

As for "Were grenades being lobbed at them when they shot dead 6 civilians, including two medics, at the Wat?", may I also point out the story of the Canadian vanderGrift who, foolishly running around with the army, got a grenade lobbed on him and a few soldiers, that same 19th of May? Somehow that explains why the soldiers became somewhat more 'soldierlike' in firing at even perceived threats and there were enough that day.

With wriggling fun,

uncle rubl

So soldiers becoming "somewhat more soldierlike" in firing at even perceived threats" is your excuse for soldiers shooting unarmed civilians.

It must have really shook up those troops on the tracks above the wat - it shook them so much that they shot and killed 6 unarmed civilians, 2 of them medical workers.

Did it also effect them when they shot the unarmed man at the zoo, or when they shot their own army colleague or the unarmed 16 year old and the unarmed taxi driver standing on the street that had come out of his house to see what was going on or Fabio Polenghi who was only armed with a camera, likewise Hiro Muramoto?

Personally I find your dogged defence of these soldiers quite unsettling. Perhaps I'll follow your advice and ignore things I don't like.

Oh boy, you still like to put words in other peoples mouth don't you?

What you still ignore it that the situation explains why it could happen that unarmed civilians were shot. I'm not saying it's good or bad, I'm just saying that when the army is 1. shot at, 2. get grenades dumped on them and 3. is involved in firefights, all with so peaceful and unarmed protesters then you have a disaster in the making. The making is that of those criminal militants who mingled with the protesters and with the UDD leaders who condoned or even applauded the violence.

Now back to the widow who asks for justice, just like the UDD when they manage to forget that the Yingluck government tried to push through a blanket amnesty bill.

[rubl]

It would be interesting to see the results of inquests of slain soldiers, what weapons were used, or where the shots came from & who fired them.

Unfortunately the DSI & courts don't appear to have reached those cases yet.

I wonder why not ?

Last year it was announced that the DSI would first concentrate on the 'easy' cases

[fab4]

It would be interesting to see the results of inquests of slain soldiers, what weapons were used, or where the shots came from & who fired them.

Unfortunately the DSI & courts don't appear to have reached those cases yet.

I wonder why not ?

Last year it was announced that the DSI would first concentrate on the 'easy' cases

The army haven't exactly fallen over themselves to provide evidence at the inquests and when they have, they have lied. Couple that with an army request to have the inquests carried out by a military court, the insistence that they did not kill anybody, Prayuths lies about the army snipers involvement in deaths of unarmed civilians, his filing of criminal defamation cases and his general interference with the criminal investigations, http://www.hrw.org/es/node/109608, I really can't see that the DSI are going to bust a gut to help the army out.

I know this must rankle with you, you being one of their most vociferous supporters, but you'll get over it in a year or fifteen.

[rubl]

It would be interesting to see the results of inquests of slain soldiers, what weapons were used, or where the shots came from & who fired them.

Unfortunately the DSI & courts don't appear to have reached those cases yet.

I wonder why not ?

Last year it was announced that the DSI would first concentrate on the 'easy' cases

The army haven't exactly fallen over themselves to provide evidence at the inquests and when they have, they have lied. Couple that with an army request to have the inquests carried out by a military court, the insistence that they did not kill anybody, Prayuths lies about the army snipers involvement in deaths of unarmed civilians, his filing of criminal defamation cases and his general interference with the criminal investigations, http://www.hrw.org/es/node/109608, I really can't see that the DSI are going to bust a gut to help the army out.

I know this must rankle with you, you being one of their most vociferous supporters, but you'll get over it in a year or fifteen.

... and the UDD / red-shirts still cheer on, unrankled in their shoutcast induced indoctrination.

So we still have the widow fighting for justice, just like the mother of the slain nurse who also didn't want to became involved in the politics.

[fab4]

It would be interesting to see the results of inquests of slain soldiers, what weapons were used, or where the shots came from & who fired them.

Unfortunately the DSI & courts don't appear to have reached those cases yet.

I wonder why not ?

Last year it was announced that the DSI would first concentrate on the 'easy' cases

The army haven't exactly fallen over themselves to provide evidence at the inquests and when they have, they have lied. Couple that with an army request to have the inquests carried out by a military court, the insistence that they did not kill anybody, Prayuths lies about the army snipers involvement in deaths of unarmed civilians, his filing of criminal defamation cases and his general interference with the criminal investigations, http://www.hrw.org/es/node/109608, I really can't see that the DSI are going to bust a gut to help the army out.

I know this must rankle with you, you being one of their most vociferous supporters, but you'll get over it in a year or fifteen.

... and the UDD / red-shirts still cheer on, unrankled in their shoutcast induced indoctrination.

So we still have the widow fighting for justice, just like the mother of the slain nurse who also didn't want to became involved in the politics.

Last word rubl, even if those words make no sense other than just another bitter post about red shirts or Thaksin or Yingluck. Yes we have an army widow fighting for justice and making political capital whilst she's at it. There's been about 16 inquests carried out of 96 deaths. Why does she have any more claim to justice than any other of the 80 families who are waiting their turn to find out what happened to their wife/husband/son/daughter/cousin etc?

[rubl]

Last word rubl, even if those words make no sense other than just another bitter post about red shirts or Thaksin or Yingluck. Yes we have an army widow fighting for justice and making political capital whilst she's at it. There's been about 16 inquests carried out of 96 deaths. Why does she have any more claim to justice than any other of the 80 families who are waiting their turn to find out what happened to their wife/husband/son/daughter/cousin etc?

Till now no one here has suggested the widow of the slain Army Colonel has more claim to justice. You're the first is even mentioning this I think. Makes one wonder why you feel the need to bring this up in a topic of a more vocal relative who wants to have justice for her slain relative. Did you say something similar in the topic of the mother of the slain nurse a few weeks ago?

Mind you some families signed various papers including not to sue the Yingluck government and got 7++ million Baht and went home somewhat happily.

[fab4]

Last word rubl, even if those words make no sense other than just another bitter post about red shirts or Thaksin or Yingluck. Yes we have an army widow fighting for justice and making political capital whilst she's at it. There's been about 16 inquests carried out of 96 deaths. Why does she have any more claim to justice than any other of the 80 families who are waiting their turn to find out what happened to their wife/husband/son/daughter/cousin etc?

Till now no one here has suggested the widow of the slain Army Colonel has more claim to justice. You're the first is even mentioning this I think. Makes one wonder why you feel the need to bring this up in a topic of a more vocal relative who wants to have justice for her slain relative. Did you say something similar in the topic of the mother of the slain nurse a few weeks ago?

Mind you some families signed various papers including not to sue the Yingluck government and got 7++ million Baht and went home somewhat happily.

Yes rubl, I'm sure that 7 million baht completely wiped out any anguish over their loved ones being shot dead by the army as you suggest and off they trotted happy as can be.

Christ on a bike, you can be an unpleasant individual when you put your mind to it.

[rubl]

Last word rubl, even if those words make no sense other than just another bitter post about red shirts or Thaksin or Yingluck. Yes we have an army widow fighting for justice and making political capital whilst she's at it. There's been about 16 inquests carried out of 96 deaths. Why does she have any more claim to justice than any other of the 80 families who are waiting their turn to find out what happened to their wife/husband/son/daughter/cousin etc?

Till now no one here has suggested the widow of the slain Army Colonel has more claim to justice. You're the first is even mentioning this I think. Makes one wonder why you feel the need to bring this up in a topic of a more vocal relative who wants to have justice for her slain relative. Did you say something similar in the topic of the mother of the slain nurse a few weeks ago?

Mind you some families signed various papers including not to sue the Yingluck government and got 7++ million Baht and went home somewhat happily.

Yes rubl, I'm sure that 7 million baht completely wiped out any anguish over their loved ones being shot dead by the army as you suggest and off they trotted happy as can be.

Christ on a bike, you can be an unpleasant individual when you put your mind to it.

The truth hurts, doesn't it?

[fab4]

Till now no one here has suggested the widow of the slain Army Colonel has more claim to justice. You're the first is even mentioning this I think. Makes one wonder why you feel the need to bring this up in a topic of a more vocal relative who wants to have justice for her slain relative. Did you say something similar in the topic of the mother of the slain nurse a few weeks ago?

Mind you some families signed various papers including not to sue the Yingluck government and got 7++ million Baht and went home somewhat happily.

Yes rubl, I'm sure that 7 million baht completely wiped out any anguish over their loved ones being shot dead by the army as you suggest and off they trotted happy as can be.

Christ on a bike, you can be an unpleasant individual when you put your mind to it.

The truth hurts, doesn't it?

Your version of it, yes, it's quite distasteful.

[rubl]

Till now no one here has suggested the widow of the slain Army Colonel has more claim to justice. You're the first is even mentioning this I think. Makes one wonder why you feel the need to bring this up in a topic of a more vocal relative who wants to have justice for her slain relative. Did you say something similar in the topic of the mother of the slain nurse a few weeks ago?

Mind you some families signed various papers including not to sue the Yingluck government and got 7++ million Baht and went home somewhat happily.

Yes rubl, I'm sure that 7 million baht completely wiped out any anguish over their loved ones being shot dead by the army as you suggest and off they trotted happy as can be.

Christ on a bike, you can be an unpleasant individual when you put your mind to it.

The truth hurts, doesn't it?

Your version of it, yes, it's quite distasteful.

The last refuse when all else fails, it would seem. Just discredit the messenger and his message by simply saying it's 'his' truth' and "he's an unpleasant individual anyway".