Another populist setback may be looming

[chotthee]

I know where they can find money to pay for the rice pledge and car refunds.

Confiscate Yingluck money will have enough to pay the farmers, car owner, and have spare to build the high speed train.

[Nickymaster]

"...to bear the negative impact of political populism"

It is one thing to discuss the pro's and con's of Govt. programs, another to advance political theory while doing so.

Left unchallenged, such negating of political theory and underlying principles, could be viewed as gospel....Left unchallenged, the self-serving motives would be obscured....Puts into context, over-the-top denigration of such programs by the PAD-Dem's, and why you see them seeking out each and every possible program hitch, and magnifying them.

The Ammart is opposed to what the above quote calls "political populism"...Let's be sure we know what that means.....

Populism refers to "programs for ordinary people"...So in the context of this quote, the statement actually says that "Political programs for ordinary people is a bad thing"

And that is the mantra of BKK. centered political circles, who decry what they see as national financial wherewithal being wasted on ordinary folks not of their station.

Does that give you a clue as to their electoral futility? Does that give you an inkling about all the furor and noise they generate against Govt. programs designed to 'spread the wealth'.

It is why the Lumpini crowd wants to establish a Civilian Dictatorship of their own kind, to put an end to such programming which does not cater to them exclusively....

The only way they can do that is non-electorally.

The main issue here is negligence. The main question is: has Yingluck been negligent when giving out (read: buying votes) huge amounts of money. Over 1 trillion baht spend on populism without transparency is not gospel. It's a fact.

Love the spread the wealth comment. You obviously mean: spread he money between the Shin Clan in order to have enough to hire shameless lobbyists like Amsterdam.

It is crystal clear what your mission is here on TV and since your propaganda is so over the top you even have Thaksin supporters waking up now. Well done. Same as with Thaksin. Every time he opens his mouth, the chance of him coming back diminishes because people then can see that he is a crook and a liar.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Nickymaster

[Tatsujin]

"...to bear the negative impact of political populism"

It is one thing to discuss the pro's and con's of Govt. programs, another to advance political theory while doing so.

Left unchallenged, such negating of political theory and underlying principles, could be viewed as gospel....Left unchallenged, the self-serving motives would be obscured....Puts into context, over-the-top denigration of such programs by the PAD-Dem's, and why you see them seeking out each and every possible program hitch, and magnifying them.

The Ammart is opposed to what the above quote calls "political populism"...Let's be sure we know what that means.....

Populism refers to "programs for ordinary people"...So in the context of this quote, the statement actually says that "Political programs for ordinary people is a bad thing"

And that is the mantra of BKK. centered political circles, who decry what they see as national financial wherewithal being wasted on ordinary folks not of their station.

Does that give you a clue as to their electoral futility? Does that give you an inkling about all the furor and noise they generate against Govt. programs designed to 'spread the wealth'.

It is why the Lumpini crowd wants to establish a Civilian Dictatorship of their own kind, to put an end to such programming which does not cater to them exclusively....

The only way they can do that is non-electorally.

Oh, Robert, you do talk such crap and are (I admit) very good at spinning ANYTHING around to suit your own very biased political viewpoint, you must get paid well.

Based on your comments, you appear to support the 2 x populist policies mentioned above that were supposed to help "the people".

Can you explain to me specifically "how" both of these 2 x populist policies actually helped the "poorer" part of "the people" in Thailand?

I personally believe that those opposed to both of these policies have nothing to do with how priveleged that someone is or who it was supposed to benefit (but doesn't), I believe they simply saw how stupid the policies actually were before they were implemented, saw the long term burden that it places on the "country" and the "individuals" now who have overspent at the behest and encouragement of the Govt and are in serious debt, how that the money (with the rice scam) doesn't really go to those that need it most, but rather those "in the middle" (all of Thaksin's friends and his own companies), and how the tax rebate is paid for by everyone else in the country for something that really wasn't necessary and is a "luxury".

To me, both of these policies were very short-sighted and very bad for the country and "it's people" (all of them) as a whole. Yes, it helped get them the "majority vote" the first time around (which was it's real purpose - to bribe those that can't see past their own noses), but ultimately it will have cost everyone far more than they ever will have got out of it (aside from the Thaksin new "elite" that really benefited from it).

[scorecard]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Populism destroys prosperity. In 2 years populism destroyed Thailand's ranking in the global rice market.

When you make people accustomed to populism, they always demand more of it. Populism, when unleashed, doesn't go away and often eats its own master.

This OP highlights another example of this cancer.

Ignorance destroys an attempt at an intelligent discussion. Vietnam and India had bumper rice harvests. India poured large amounts into its rice subsidy program and engaged in trade deals that other countries who respect trade sanctions would not enter into. India dumped rice on the market. Don't let those inconvenient facts get in your way.

The automobile incentive was intended to boost the Thai automotive sector when it most needed support. Although not as large as the US and Canadian government bailouts of their auto industries, it provided a much needed boost to the auto manufacturers who had suffered from the Thai floods. Thailand auto sector is a major source of revenue for the government and skilled jobs for its workers. The incentives were welcomed by the business sector and were considered helpful.

You seem to have joined the ranks of the posters here who are experts on everything and have immediate close inside information of everything under the sun.

Suggest you take break g'kid, your not convincing and it's obvious your grabbing at straws, and in many cases you just try to sideline the topic. Your obvious.

[Bakseeda]

"...to bear the negative impact of political populism"

It is one thing to discuss the pro's and con's of Govt. programs, another to advance political theory while doing so.

Left unchallenged, such negating of political theory and underlying principles, could be viewed as gospel.

The Ammart is opposed to what the above quote calls "political populism"...Let's be sure we know what that means.....

Populism refers to "programs for ordinary people"...So in the context of this quote, the statement actually says that "Political programs for ordinary people is a bad thing"

And that is the mantra of BKK. centered political circles, who decry what they see as national financial wherewithal being wasted on ordinary folks not of their station.

Does that give you a clue as to their electoral futility? Does that give you an inkling about all the furor and noise they generate against Govt. programs designed to 'spread the wealth'.

It is why the Lumpini crowd wants to establish a Civilian Dictatorship of their own kind, to put an end to such programming which does not cater to them exclusively....

The only way they can do that is non-electorally.

Maybe in nearer future the very educated Bangkokians must grow rice, fruits and vegetable on their fancy 1sqm balkonies or on rooftops...

Don't be so silly Mentors... The Burmese, Cambodians and Vietnamese are already sending nearly all of their produce to Thai markets.... The clever Bangkok tax-payers will never be without and who will the Isaan people sell their produce to... Let the Red Shirts stew in their own makings... Lao Khao and som tam anyone..!

[scorecard]

Not to mention the horrendous traffic and polution

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

This Scheme was designed to hurt Bangkokians. The well-off in Bangkok may own cars but they can't use them now as the traffic is so bad. Clever. The rural folk must be having a good laugh at how PTP made the city people suffer.

Haha!

Its true that around half of those cars ended up in Bangkok where the roads are already both insufficient and poorly managed from a traffic perspective.

The thing is that at this time of year we also see how the additional cars put the entire nation's road system to a halt.

Wife drove up to Udon yesterday. 14 hours!!!!!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Designed to hurt / annoy city folks.

Well remember that many city folks are actually upcountry folks who have migrated permanent / semi-permanent to the city.

Suggest you take a sedative and calm down.

[Old Man River]

"...to bear the negative impact of political populism"

It is one thing to discuss the pro's and con's of Govt. programs, another to advance political theory while doing so.

Left unchallenged, such negating of political theory and underlying principles, could be viewed as gospel....Left unchallenged, the self-serving motives would be obscured....Puts into context, over-the-top denigration of such programs by the PAD-Dem's, and why you see them seeking out each and every possible program hitch, and magnifying them.

The Ammart is opposed to what the above quote calls "political populism"...Let's be sure we know what that means.....

Populism refers to "programs for ordinary people"...So in the context of this quote, the statement actually says that "Political programs for ordinary people is a bad thing"

And that is the mantra of BKK. centered political circles, who decry what they see as national financial wherewithal being wasted on ordinary folks not of their station.

Does that give you a clue as to their electoral futility? Does that give you an inkling about all the furor and noise they generate against Govt. programs designed to 'spread the wealth'.

It is why the Lumpini crowd wants to establish a Civilian Dictatorship of their own kind, to put an end to such programming which does not cater to them exclusively....

The only way they can do that is non-electorally.

Blame the ammart, blame the ammart, blame the ammart...

Time to get a new playbook.

To an extent he is correct. Thaksin, YL and their friends are part of the Ammart. Hence, Fryslan boppe is saying blame Thaksin, blame YL, blame their friends etc.

At the end of the day, Fryslan boppe, under your scenario, how can you tell one Ammart from the other?

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand

[metisdead]

Inflammatory posts and off topic posts and replies have been removed.

[Fryslan boppe]

Populism refers to "programs for ordinary people"...So in the context of this quote, the statement actually says that "Political programs for ordinary people is a bad thing"

When the promises offer hope, but actually deliver despair, please explain how that isn't a 'bad thing'

Farmers have committed suicide already, do first time car buyers have to start doing the same thing before you come to realise how foul your messages are?

"When the promises offer hope, but actually deliver despair, please explain how that isn't a 'bad thing'

Convince the electorate in the re-scheduled election.

A problem I see re-occuring all the time, is many people buy Opposition charges holus-bolus....As if what the Opposition says and accuses, is all gospel.

In western democracies, Opposition noise is taken "with a grain of salt".....If the populace got fired up everytime the Opposition opposed something, and called it the "mother of all travesties", they would be fired up all the time.

If the electorate buys this stuff, and throws the bums out on their ear, your point is valid...If not, it is invalid.

The opposition will have all the opportunities it needs to convince the electorate in the upcoming election...Unless of course if they are succesful in avoiding another one by circumventing them with the imposition of a Civilian Dictatorship......

Good luck with Governance after that.

[zydeco]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Populism destroys prosperity. In 2 years populism destroyed Thailand's ranking in the global rice market.

When you make people accustomed to populism, they always demand more of it. Populism, when unleashed, doesn't go away and often eats its own master.

This OP highlights another example of this cancer.

Ignorance destroys an attempt at an intelligent discussion. Vietnam and India had bumper rice harvests. India poured large amounts into its rice subsidy program and engaged in trade deals that other countries who respect trade sanctions would not enter into. India dumped rice on the market. Don't let those inconvenient facts get in your way.

The automobile incentive was intended to boost the Thai automotive sector when it most needed support. Although not as large as the US and Canadian government bailouts of their auto industries, it provided a much needed boost to the auto manufacturers who had suffered from the Thai floods. Thailand auto sector is a major source of revenue for the government and skilled jobs for its workers. The incentives were welcomed by the business sector and were considered helpful.

You seem to have joined the ranks of the posters here who are experts on everything and have immediate close inside information of everything under the sun.

Suggest you take break g'kid, your not convincing and it's obvious your grabbing at straws, and in many cases you just try to sideline the topic. Your obvious.

Agreed. The consequences of these policies were obvious. They are along the line of "in order to save the (auto/rice) part of the economy, it was necessary to destroy it." The rice and auto scams are the sort of things that plutocrats/limousine liberals nod their heads knowingly about in approval, as they take another sip of cognac, while ordering their houseboy to massage their feet.

[bigbamboo]

Promises, promises.

First it takes forever and a day to honour the 300 baht minimum wage, then the rice scheme becomes a scam and the farmers don't get paid and now all those mugs who thought they were getting a good deal on a car are now realising no such thing exists unless you are a government official who likes their cars imported without any paperwork.

Still at least they coughed up for the corporate tax rebates on time so at least some PT supporters are happy.

[Scamper]

This editorial raises a subject that needs to be addressed, rather than dismissed. If the Yingluck administration's populous policies - it's rice policies, laptop policies, car ownership policies, " low gas cost " policies - if any of these were roaring successes - do you think this editorial would exist ? This editorial exists because these policies were fiscally unsound, were surrounded with graft and corruption, and in the case of the rice scheme, threw the country into debt, destroyed the rice industry and knocked Thailand off top tier rice export status for the first time in three decades.

Editorials are opinion pieces. This one happens to have a lot of facts behind it. If the rice farmers were to read this editorial - to a man - they would all agree with it. For those who are tirelessly using the word " ammart ", just think of that for a moment. One assumes that " ammart " doesn't apply to rice farmers anymore than it apparently does to despot billionaires.

[Asiantravel]

Another populist setback may be looming

The huge demand for vehicles resulting from the first-car policy was an "artificial demand", economists have said. Meanwhile many who claimed to be "first-car" buyers already owned cars but signed up with relatives' or friends' names.

Owwwwwwwwwwwww!

i.e fraud

[BirdsandBooze]

The fault with populist schemes is that they always entail robbing Peter to pay Paul.

[metisdead]

An off topic post has been removed, this is not about nazism nor is it about the changes that happened in Mexico.

[Bluespunk]

The fault with populist schemes is that they always entail robbing Peter to pay Paul.

While making sure your mates are waiting round the corner to mug Paul.

[rametindallas]

Not to mention the horrendous traffic and polution

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

This Scheme was designed to hurt Bangkokians. The well-off in Bangkok may own cars but they can't use them now as the traffic is so bad. Clever. The rural folk must be having a good laugh at how PTP made the city people suffer.

Haha!

Its true that around half of those cars ended up in Bangkok where the roads are already both insufficient and poorly managed from a traffic perspective.

The thing is that at this time of year we also see how the additional cars put the entire nation's road system to a halt.

Wife drove up to Udon yesterday. 14 hours!!!!!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Designed to hurt / annoy city folks.

Well remember that many city folks are actually upcountry folks who have migrated permanent / semi-permanent to the city.

Suggest you take a sedative and calm down.

You would probably benefit from getting a sense of humor

[rickirs]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Not to mention the horrendous traffic and polution

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Traffic control and pollution mitigation are populist ideasbecause its is the population as a whole that benfits from such policies. I would guess that Suthep would eliminate traffic control devices and allow unconstrained pollution in Thailand in eliminating populist policies from Thai society.

[Thai at Heart]

I hate the word.populism.

Cars in Thailand are taxed to death. All the right leaning small govt ideologists should be applauding giving the taxes back.

But hey TIT. Land of contradictory support.

[rickirs]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

This artcle is a crock and is BS. The money that was promised as a rebate to 1st time car buyers is in fact actually paid by the car manufacturers in taxes. That money is sent to the finance ministry until the excise dept request it sent to the individual who putchased the car. So basically all it is is a rebate from the manufacturer.
So what happened to this money?
By the way, the details for all mentioned above were told to my wife by the excise dept so it is true.
If the car manufacturers sent the rebates to the finance ministry (which is most certain) then how can they not have the money to pay these car buyers?
By the way, this is not about rich and elite and ammart as that previous poster always claims. This rebate was intended to help those who never owned a car obtain one. It put the nee owner in serious debt. In some cases money was borrowed simply because of the rebate promised and people are counting on that money to reducr their debts which were incurred to purchase the car. For this article to say its not that important is irresponsible. But even more so it is filled with holes as to what happened to the money that the manuafacturer sent to the finance ministry. The excise dept only job was to qualify participants and forward payment amounts due to the finance ministry.
Is this another example of corruption and laying blame?

Sent from my GT-S5310 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

"If the car manufacturers sent the rebates to the finance ministry (which is most certain)"

Why is it most certain? Why not doubtful? I can imagine a scenario where manufacturers would be relunctant to give up the rebates, especially when some are experiencing the biggest worldwide auto recalls in history. In any case, shouldn't the failure of an auto delareship to assure delivery of auto rebates to purchasers a civil matter, even a class action lawsuit?

[Thai at Heart]

Populism refers to "programs for ordinary people"...So in the context of this quote, the statement actually says that "Political programs for ordinary people is a bad thing"

When the promises offer hope, but actually deliver despair, please explain how that isn't a 'bad thing'

Farmers have committed suicide already, do first time car buyers have to start doing the same thing before you come to realise how foul your messages are?

"When the promises offer hope, but actually deliver despair, please explain how that isn't a 'bad thing'

Convince the electorate in the re-scheduled election.

A problem I see re-occuring all the time, is many people buy Opposition charges holus-bolus....As if what the Opposition says and accuses, is all gospel.

In western democracies, Opposition noise is taken "with a grain of salt".....If the populace got fired up everytime the Opposition opposed something, and called it the "mother of all travesties", they would be fired up all the time.

If the electorate buys this stuff, and throws the bums out on their ear, your point is valid...If not, it is invalid.

The opposition will have all the opportunities it needs to convince the electorate in the upcoming election...Unless of course if they are succesful in avoiding another one by circumventing them with the imposition of a Civilian Dictatorship......

Good luck with Governance after that.

I think they should just get rid of all the excess taxes on cars and replace it with a tax on land of say 200 baht per rai per year.

I mean this cat rebate is obviously in universally unpopular with the opposition, so let's replace it with something better.

Or would such an outrageous idea as this be populism too? Isn't this interesting. Anything that gives a tax break or a benefit to the poor end of society is populism.

Funny that.

[Halion]

The car rebate scheme was an ill conceived attempt by the PTP to sway the deficit of the PTP in Bangkok and like the majority of their half baked scheme it has backfired on them however the pain is with the people and not the malevolent and manipulative government.

[marcusd]

"Like other issues, the Pheu Thai Party's populist schemes have been sucked into the ongoing political maelstrom. Debate on their merits has been clouded by extreme prejudice. The day Thailand starts deliberating the pros and cons of populist policies without political bias may be the day we see light at the end of the tunnel."

you get what they pay you for.... Don't complain after hitching yourself to the slide.

[Thaddeus]

If run like the rice scheme.. The government would have bought 1million cars from manufacturers with vouchers with 0% interest on the promise that they will later pay the manufacturers

Got it.

The manufacturers are Peter.

The Government are Paul.

Where did Mary go?

[marcusd]

I know where they can find money to pay for the rice pledge and car refunds.

Yes US. Go get a frarang is what often hear from thai people with no money. And I live in Chiang Mai and I do not frequent bars clubs or pick up areas.

[Melyn]

Not to mention the horrendous traffic and polution

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Traffic control and pollution mitigation are populist ideasbecause its is the population as a whole that benfits from such policies. I would guess that Suthep would eliminate traffic control devices and allow unconstrained pollution in Thailand in eliminating populist policies from Thai society.

On what basis?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[marcusd]

"...to bear the negative impact of political populism"

It is one thing to discuss the pro's and con's of Govt. programs, another to advance political theory while doing so.

Left unchallenged, such negating of political theory and underlying principles, could be viewed as gospel....Left unchallenged, the self-serving motives would be obscured....Puts into context, over-the-top denigration of such programs by the PAD-Dem's, and why you see them seeking out each and every possible program hitch, and magnifying them.

The Ammart is opposed to what the above quote calls "political populism"...Let's be sure we know what that means.....

Populism refers to "programs for ordinary people"...So in the context of this quote, the statement actually says that "Political programs for ordinary people is a bad thing"

And that is the mantra of BKK. centered political circles, who decry what they see as national financial wherewithal being wasted on ordinary folks not of their station.

Does that give you a clue as to their electoral futility? Does that give you an inkling about all the furor and noise they generate against Govt. programs designed to 'spread the wealth'.

It is why the Lumpini crowd wants to establish a Civilian Dictatorship of their own kind, to put an end to such programming which does not cater to them exclusively....

The only way they can do that is non-electorally.

Go away and drown in Sonkran. Don't you ever learn? You must be very very poorly educated or you are a relative of fat boy in North Korea. I would really love to meet you ANYWHERE as I am rich and can afford to travel. I would really love to show you a thing or two about your sprouting off at everything to support this crooked regime and I will be alone, just you and me discussing the virtues of how to solve the ills of this world over a nice gin and tonic.

that way I could really see the ideologies first hand and maybe understand you more because here, i like so many others, have no idea what planet you are coming from.

Edited April 12, 2014 by marcusd

[rametindallas]

I hate the word.populism.

Cars in Thailand are taxed to death. All the right leaning small govt ideologists should be applauding giving the taxes back.

But hey TIT. Land of contradictory support.

When all the ''advanced' countries are doing their utmost to get the citizenry to use public transportation, Thailand's government decides to subsidize the use of personal cars; and do it in a city that was already near gridlock from personal cars. Thinking about the long-term consequences of their actions is not in the Thai make-up. Giving tax supports to buy major item like a car just puts people further in debt; Thais were already awash in consumer debt. The money they tie up each month in car payments is now not being spent on the general economy so the general economy suffers. All governments, not just Thailand's, need to stay out of manipulating the economy and let the free market work. No government in the world is good at picking winners and losers and it just opens the possibilities of more corruption to insiders.

[ozvenison]

wasn't it reported that a very 'large' % of these car buyers have defaulted on the loan as they suddenly realised they couldn't afford them???

[Thai at Heart]

Quote name="rametindallas" post="7681260" timestamp="1397281381"]

I hate the word.populism.

Cars in Thailand are taxed to death. All the right leaning small govt ideologists should be applauding giving the taxes back.

But hey TIT. Land of contradictory support.

When all the ''advanced' countries are doing their utmost to get the citizenry to use public transportation, Thailand's government decides to subsidize the use of personal cars; and do it in a city that was already near gridlock from personal cars. Thinking about the long-term consequences of their actions is not in the Thai make-up. Giving tax supports to buy major item like a car just puts people further in debt; Thais were already awash in consumer debt. The money they tie up each month in car payments is now not being spent on the general economy so the general economy suffers. All governments, not just Thailand's, need to stay out of manipulating the economy and let the free market work. No government in the world is good at picking winners and losers and it just opens the possibilities of more corruption to insiders.

No it wasn't a subsidy. It was a tax rebate on small cars.

I think that is used quite universally around the world to encourage people to buy small efficient cars. All the rest is semantics.

This reduced government revenue in the medium term, it did not cost the government a penny. People simply got back the tax they had paid.

Its OK. All this political tension believing that every step that this government takes is obviously designed to give away something for nothing. The ecological arguments are valid and the credit stuff too.

That's a different issue as to whether the policy was populist. I consider giving people back their taxes a good thing, particularly those who need it most.

What they should have done is permenenatly reduce the tax on small cars. But that would have been construed as even more populist.

Like I said. Tax land and get rid of all these stupid duties. Any takers

I mean if you can afford all that land and leave it sitting empty, can't you afford a couple of 100 per rai.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Thai at Heart