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Suvarnabhumi Airport Set To Open On Sept 28


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I wonder what the fall out would actually be if they did not get ICAO certification.

I should imagine many airlines would refuse to use the airport until such problems were rectified. If it's viewed as unsafe then I should also imagine that insurance of the aircrafts and passengers could also come into question.

Quite clearly the airlines simply won't allow their planes to use the airport if they don't think it's safe. If it's only Thai airways using the airport on 28 september then we'll know there's a problem.

I wouldn't put it past the Government to pay off some of the smaller airlines with financial difficulties to fly on the opening day and the days after to create an image of the 'safe, newly opened airport'.

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"Aerodrome" is simply an old-fashioned word for "airport," used no doubt because that's the term the Chicago Convention uses.

There are practical concerns which make it difficult for the airport to operate if the ICAO is known to be unhappy, whatever the legal technicalities. Consider in particular insurance, both for the airlines and the airport.

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We just have to have confidence :o

SUVARNABHUMI MINISTER'S REACTION TO REPORT

AoT confident airport will be safe for September opening

AMORNRAT MAHITTHIROOK

Airports of Thailand Plc (AoT) has attended to risk areas at Suvarnabhumi airport and is confident that it will be safe for the commercial opening set for Sept 28, caretaker Transport Minister Pongsak Raktapongpaisal said yesterday.

He was commenting on a report by the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) on the eve of a test run for 21 local flights today.

The ICAO report identified 93 risk areas, including a lack of safety at the ends of runways.

Mr Pongsak said the risks the ICAO had identified were based on information that was not up-to-date.

To boost public confidence in the airport's safety, the Aviation Department would confer with the ICAO again with the latest available information.

''On checking the report, we found that the document had been circulated since June, which means the information may date back to several months before,'' Mr Pongsak said.

The AoT had attended to all the issues raised and was now ''ready and confident'' in the airport's safety, he said.

According to a copy of the ICAO report which was obtained by the Bangkok Post, the findings were based on information collected and observations made between June and early July.

One item the report questions is the ''runway-end safety areas''.

According to Aviation Department director-general Chaisak Angkasuwan, the ICAO in 2004 issued a new standard that a runway-end safety area must be 90 metres long.

At Suvarnabhumi airport, runway-end safety areas currently measure only 60 metres long, he said. But he said there was enough space to build the extensions required.

The Aviation Department, which is a consulting client of the ICAO, has issued an Interim Aerodrome Certificate for the landing and operation tests being conducted today by local airlines.

But the airport needs a permanent certificate approved by the ICAO for its Sept 28 commercial opening

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I think the process is such that every country must certify and regulate their own airport. ICAO then audits their certification process and confirms that the "process" meets international standards and also verifies that the government requires the airport to be operated according to local regs which were approved. So it is an oversight agency to both the approval process and that the airport is indeed measured and conforms to required standards set in the approval process.

I wonder what the fall out would actually be if they did not get ICAO certification.

Probably nothing. There is no ICAO certification for an individual airport. The Thai DGCA hit the nail on the head..it is for the individual State to ensure that ICAO recommended standards and practises are maintained. There is no policing by ICAO. It is a sovereign matter.

If a state does not or cannot meet some of the criteria they can then file a ''difference". There are many airports in the world which do not meet some of the ICAO criteria. For example Phuket has not met some of the standards for many years i.e obstacle clearance either side of the take off and landing funnel for wide body aircraft.

Usually you will find that if an "unsafe" condition is deemed to exist, the airlines, or more likley the Pilots Unions will exert pressure to rectify.

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Domestic airlines will begin their flight services at Suvarnabhumi airport on September 15

Domestic airlines whose flights start and end at Suvarnabhumi airport will begin their commercial services at this new international airport on September 15.

Chotisak Asapawiriya (โชติศักดิ์ อาสภวิริยะ), president of the Airports of Thailand (AOT) Public Co. Ltd., said services of all commercial airlines and international flights will begin on September 28, the day the airport is officially opened.

Mr. Chotisak said AOT board was expected to approve the construction of a low-cost airlines building at Suvarnabhumi airport this month. Construction, costing 600 million baht, should be completed in one and a half years, he said.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 04 August 2006

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At some risk of stating the obvious, but might this not cause a few problems for passengers on Low-Cost airlines between 15th & 27th Sptember, who had planned onward-connections with international flights, and vice versa ? :o

Do you think the poo-yai really meant what he said ?

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At some risk of stating the obvious, but might this not cause a few problems for passengers on Low-Cost airlines between 15th & 27th Sptember, who had planned onward-connections with international flights, and vice versa ? :o

Do you think the poo-yai really meant what he said ?

Actually it doesn't mention "low-cost airlines", only "domestic airlines". Does that mean that domestic Thai Air flights will be using the new airport while their international flights will be using the old airport? I would expect and hope that Thai Air domestic flights will be exempted from that early move. I'll have to send them an email and ask what's the situation.

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Anybody who thinks that one day we use the old airport the next day the new one is in cloud cookoo land.

The proplems involved and the movement of equipment( I presume they will not buy new equipment, transporters , fuel trucks, fire trucks, personel ect for the new airport) will mean at least a one week change over period. Other problems such as airtraffic control , where is this run from?

My problem is I am flying in around that time, prehaps its not a problem since I don't belive it will happen then except to Thai airways.

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Why all the rush to get the airport opened quickly?? Well, here's a very plausible explanation:

Sondhi zooms in on airport graft

Media firebrand and anti-Thaksin crusader Sondhi Limthongkul, pictured, last night accused the caretaker government of rushing to open the new Suvarnabhumi International Airport so that politicians and officials responsible for its construction can collect handsome commissions from the contractors.

Sondhi claimed that some 15 billion baht in commissions – or 10 percent of the 150 billion baht cost of the airport – will change hands once Suvarnabhumi formally opens on September 28 and Airports of Thailand (AoT) takes over its operations. Once this happens, all the contractors will be paid off, enabling them to pay the alleged kickbacks, he said.

“Why are the [government officials] in such a hurry?” Sondhi asked rhetorically at his weekly talk show in Lumpini Hall, answering with: “Because they are not sure whether they can continue in office for many more months.”

Sondhi said there was more corruption involving Suvarnabhumi than any other project in the world, adding Thai Airport Ground Services (TAGS), which was awarded a long-term contract worth 23 billion baht to handle ground services at the new airport, was the sole bidder.

He claimed the majority of TAGS shares are held by Singapore-based nominees who could be traced to influential figures connected to caretaker Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

To substantiate his claims, Sondhi produced copies of 46 contracts allegedly made between the airport and subcontractors that he said were smuggled out by insiders.

“A 10-year-service agreement was made with a security firm,” Sondhi said.

“It is not practical to make such an agreement, except to increase the size of the kickbacks, because the terms of the agreement make it impossible to cancel it, even if services prove to be inadequate in the first year.”

To cheers from the audience, Sondhi ridiculed the government’s demand that personnel and equipment be moved from Don Muang – the current international airport – to Suvarnabhumi in just 60 days.

“Moving house or relocating a company takes many months of preparation and this is an airport. Are they even sure the roads to the airport are finished?” Sondhi said.

“Since the government has postponed the opening of Suvarnabhumi for years, why is it trying to rush it through now, except to get payment of commissions?”

Sondhi’s fears were echoed by the International Air Transport Association (IATA) last week, prior to the first major test flights at the airport last Saturday. IATA said the government must ensure all systems are tested thoroughly and are 100 percent ready before opening Suvarnabhumi for commercial operations.

Sondhi also criticized the location of the airport, which he said was in the middle of a swamp. He predicted that the ground on which Suvarnabhumi is built would eventually subside.

“The area on which Suvarnabhumi is built is called Nong Ngu Hao [Cobra Swamp]. Don Muang is built on a don [elevated area],” he said. “Who would ever think of building an airport in a swamp? Of course it will sink,” he said.

- ThaiDay

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Anybody who thinks that one day we use the old airport the next day the new one is in cloud cookoo land.

AFAIK, the new airports at DEN and HKG cut-over full operations in one day; of course both had some problems but nothing catastrophic. At KUL I think they staggered int'l and domestic ops, transferring the former overnight, and the latter sometime later.

ATC shouldn't be an issue, other than approach (Bangkok tower) and field ops, it will probably stay where it is (it could be anywhere).

I agree it will be challenging, with the potential for major problems, but sometimes you just have to set a date a push forward, otherwise nothing would ever get done.

Equipment (tugs, buses, catering, refueling, fire, safety), bonded warehousing, personnel and even aircraft represent a real challenge, but I assume they have plans.

There are several "once-a-day" operations, UA and NW (from/to NRT) for example, where the aircraft lands late at night and departs early the next morning. Will be interesting to see what happens with those; ferry (fly) the aircraft overnight from Don Muang to Suvarnabhumi?

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In a strange, quirky coincidence, the following article is completely unrelated to the above

wombat-burrowing:

Democrats burrow into airport

The Democrat party will submit evidence to the Department of Special Investigation (DSI) within the next month that it claims exposes two companies that illegally received contracts to construct portions of Suvarnabhumi airport, Democrat deputy leader Alongkorn Polabutr said yesterday.

“We will submit evidence about the selection of contractors for Suvarnabhumi’s electricity system and air ventilation system,” he told reporters. “Because the evidence shows that Airport Facilities and FMC Technology Thailand have no experience at all and unstable financial records.”

Neither company could be reached yesterday for comment. Alongkorn said the Democrat investigation found that the company address registered for Airport Facilities was actually an ice factory. In addition, he claimed, its 2005 financial records revealed a deficit of 7,000 baht and no income. :o:D

FNC Technologies sells fertilizer and agricultural tools. :D:D

“Why were these companies selected and not Thai Airways Plc, which manages Don Muang Airport?,” he asked.

The party plans to send an inquiry on the contracts to Transport Minister Pongsak Raktapongpaisal. If he fails to investigate the companies, Alongkorn said, the Democrats plan to sue Pongsak for malfeasance under Article 157 of the Criminal Procedure Code – the same clause used to jail the former members of the Election Commission.

ThaiDay

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Problem w/no IATA/ICAO certs, don't think any of the foreign airlines will land there for insurance reasons. Least that was how it was explained to me when I queried a few of the well known airlines about landing at the new airport. :o

I fly back to UK on 28th September. ! If i am at the new airport will my plane be at Don Muang ?

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*sigh* ...another day, another airport scandal :

DSI asked to probe airport deal

Democrat Party deputy leader Alongkorn Pollabutr yesterday filed evidence with the Department of Special Investigation (DSI) to investigate suspected irregularities in the bidding of the 400Hz electrical systems and air conditioners at Suvarnabhumi Airport.

The Airport Facility Co that won the bidding over Thai Airways International (THAI) had no experience in electrical systems and air-conditioning, as it was involved in "ice, massage parlours and agricultural businesses," he said.

Meanwhile, THAI was deemed unqualified with 79 per cent of the technical qualification points, although it had run the business at the international airport at Don Muang for more than 10 years.

Alongkorn suspected nepotism as the bids for 400Hz electrical systems and air conditioners were for 10 years - and worth Bt4 billion, he said.

The Nation

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The Democrat Party claims irregularities evolved from installation of electricity and air-conditioning systems at Suvarnabhumi airport

The Democrat Party has petitioned the Department of Special Investigation (DSI) to look into alleged corruption concerning installation of electricity and air-conditioning systems at Suvarnabhumi airport.

Democrat deputy leader Alongkorn Pollabutr (อลงกรณ์ พลบุตร), as chairman of the party’s corruption investigation team, alleged that Airport Facility Co. Ltd. which won the installation contract, was just an ice and bottle maker.

Mr. Alongkorn said the company allegedly had only four of its employees register with the Social Security Office. The firm also did not have any income but had a debt worth 7,000 baht, he alleged.

He questioned why the contract was not awarded to Thai Airways International, which was a qualified bidder, as the safety and high standard of the airport’s electricity system could never be compromised.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 08 August 2006

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PM says no official change of Suvarnabhumi's opening date

Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra insisted that no official change of the opening date of Suvarnabhumi Airport has taken place, but domestic airlines are gradually being transferred, to avoid confusion.

Referring to the news of Suvarnabhumi Airport’s shift of opening date from September 28th to September 15th, Pol. Lt. Col. Thaksin stated that domestic airlines are being switched to the new airport first, as this can help prevent uncertainty on September 28th.

Next week, the board members who are responsible in developing Suvarnabhumi Airport will have a discussion on the possibility of this issue. Three alternatives will be discussed, and they include the transfer of all domestic flights, the transfer of flights that do not fly abroad afterward, or no transfer at all until September 28th. During the first two weeks, limousines in Suvarnabhumi and Don Muang will provide free services to the commuters.

The Prime Minister however believes that no problem will arise because of the Suvarnabhumi’s opening date.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 08 August 2006

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The Democrat Party claims irregularities evolved from installation of electricity and air-conditioning systems at Suvarnabhumi airport

The Democrat Party has petitioned the Department of Special Investigation (DSI) to look into alleged corruption concerning installation of electricity and air-conditioning systems at Suvarnabhumi airport.

Democrat deputy leader Alongkorn Pollabutr (อลงกรณ์ พลบุตร), as chairman of the party’s corruption investigation team, alleged that Airport Facility Co. Ltd. which won the installation contract, was just an ice and bottle maker.

Mr. Alongkorn said the company allegedly had only four of its employees register with the Social Security Office. The firm also did not have any income but had a debt worth 7,000 baht, he alleged.

He questioned why the contract was not awarded to Thai Airways International, which was a qualified bidder, as the safety and high standard of the airport’s electricity system could never be compromised.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 08 August 2006

<deleted>? Four employees?

<deleted>?? No income and only debts??

and for several more <deleted>'s:

''An initial investigation has found there was an irregularity,'' Mr Alongkorn said. The company had no experience in providing airport services, but was given a higher technical score than Thai International Airways which has provided the same services to Don Muang Airport for the past 10 years. The contract winner had run an ice factory in Bang Bon, a massage service at Don Muang and engaged in some agricultural business, Mr Alongkorn said. Moreover, the AoT had demanded damages of only 200 million baht if there was any breach of contract. Service providers at Don Muang Airport had been liable to fines of up to 500 million baht. ''This shows the AoT has tried to help this company,'' he said. :o At 150 billion baht, the construction of Suvarnabhumi airport was the most expensive in the world because ''excessive costs'' had been found in contracts ranging from the purchase of sand to the assembly of the canvas roof, he said.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/08Aug2006_news04.php

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Alongkorn questioned how Samart, with no experience in handling waste disposal and treatment, could secure the contract.

...

Alongkorn suggested the consortium had close ties to the Wongsawat family.

Somchai Wongsawat is a brother-in-law of caretaker Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra and chaired a committee that appointed AoT executives.

Will this reduce Dr. Thaksin’s popularity outside Bangkok? I doubt it very much.

I do not approve of these shenanigans, of course, but sometimes I wonder if the time has not come for the opposition parties to start publicising what they can and will do right, if elected, rather than limit themselves to publicity about what the incumbent government is doing wrong.

---------------

Maestro

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A green light to open, but not all international carriers will be able to use the airport???

Global experts say new airport is ready

ICAO: Suvarnabhumi ok for limited flights

BOONSONG KOSITCHOTETHANA

Suvarnabhumi airport will be able to open on Sept 28, the date targeted by the government, but only for a limited amount of air traffic, according to the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO).

''ICAO experts' current assessment of the status of operational readiness, based on available information, knowledge and experience of this and other airport projects, is that the new airport can open on Sept 28 for a proportion of air traffic,'' the specialised United Nations agency said in a statement.

But the airport's readiness for full commercial operations on Sept 28 hinges on the results of further tests. Trials are scheduled to take place up until then, intensifying in scope, activity and content.

The independent statement comes during scepticism over whether Bangkok's 125-billion-baht airport will be up to scratch, in terms of safety and security.

Despite issuing the vote of confidence, the ICAO clarified that it was not responsible for certifying Suvarnabhumi airport; that authority was Thailand's Department of Civil Aviation (DCA), which followed national regulations developed within the ICAO's framework.

The DCA has already issued interim aerodrome certification for Suvarnabhumi after completing an audit of safety and security standards, director-general Chaisak Angkasuwan said.

Mr Chaisak said Suvarnabhumi would only be fully certified by the DCA once it had been running full commercial flights for one or two months, which was routine.

''That's the normal procedure. We don't grant a full certificate until the airport has proved it is able to run effectively,'' he said. ''I do not see why Suvarnabhumi would not be able to get full certification.''

According to the ICAO, Suvarnabhumi would not only have to show that it has met all the safety and security standards to receive full certification, but also that it could provide a higher level of service, for passengers for example, than Bangkok International Airport at Don Muang.

Chotisak Asapaviriya, president of the Airports of Thailand Plc (AoT), said the AoT was doing all it could for Suvarnabhumi in terms of function and safety.

Apinan Sumanaseni, president of Thai Airways International, said that the national carrier's test flights to Suvarnabhumi on July 29, along with five other Thai airlines, proved the airport was safe.

''Otherwise we wouldn't have flown in the first place,'' said Capt Apinan.

Despite this, DCA chief Chaisak said people should not expect Suvarnabhumi to be 100% perfect when it opens.

''There will be teething problems during the opening. There will be rattles here and there but they are manageable,'' he said, adding that AoT had contingency plans to deal with any problems.

The AoT has worked with ICAO experts since 2003 to plan Suvarnabhumi. They will stay with the authority for a period after the opening to work out any glitches.

The ICAO's experts have been providing advice and assistance for the AoT in terms of passenger terminal operations, airside operations, aviation security, IT and communication systems, baggage handling, engineering and maintenance, and human resources, including training

Bangkok Post today

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A minor glitch to any earlier-than-the-28th-opening.... no workers:

Union 'no' to Sept 15 airport move

Thai Airways' labour union issued a statement yesterday opposing the government's plan to move the national flag carrier's domestic flights to the new airport on September 15.

The early relocation, two weeks ahead of the airport's controversial Sept 28 opening, would pose serious problems for connecting passengers as all international flights would remain at Don Muang, it said.

Virtually every domestic flight had passengers linking to outbound international services while incoming international arrivals also have passengers who need to connect to domestic flights, the union said.

This meant connecting flights would be missed and the airline would have to take responsibility for hotel and other expenses.

"If the government insists on opening the new airport for domestic service on September 15, we will ask employees not to report to work at Suvarnabhumi Airport on that date," a union official said.

The union said it would send an urgent note to Transport Ministry permanent secretary Wanchai Sarathulthat to try to clarify the early relocation date.

"Most THAI employees learned of the plan from the news media," said another union official, who noted that the idea - unveiled by caretaker premier Thaksin Shinawatra during his weekly radio address last week - could lead to serious technical problems for THAI aircraft.

For instance, he said the maintenance staff would not be able to fix any technical problems in the THAI fleet because most spare parts would still be at Don Muang. And at present, most of the parts and equipment for repair were shared among aircraft for both domestic and international flights.

THAI would also not be able to maximise the use of its cabin crew and pilots because it would be impossible to connect transit flights between international and domestic flights when using two airports.

International passengers and related parties have also not been fully informed of the early relocation plan, he said. Most were not aware of which airport they have to go to because at present the code is only "BKK" for Bangkok.

Thus, the union had asked airline managers to urge the government to review the early relocation plan - to protect the interests of THAI and its passengers, he said.

Transport Minister Pongsak Ruktapong-pisal insisted yesterday that THAI would start domestic flights from Suvarnabhumi on Sept 15, but said other airlines may move to the new airport when ready.

THAI president Apinant Sumanaseranee said the airline would only fly three domestic routes from Suvarnabhumi on Sept 15 - to Phitsanulok, Ubon Ratchathani and Chiang Mai.

Thaksin said yesterday that the early relocation plan would help the new airport reduce the chaos expected on September 28 when international and domestic services both begin operations.

The Nation

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There are two stories in the papers today, one about PB Air scare when during the test flight the warning "no airport" has gone off at landing - the databse and software on board of the plane were not updated. Another story about Thai Airways pilot union protesting the move on Sep 15. They say many of their domestic passengers have connecting flights and will have to commute between two airports, and that Thai Air can't provide proper maintanance at the new airport yet as they share many services and spareparts with their international department. They also mentioned that pilots don't like to learn where they have to work next month from the news on TV and not through usual channels, like their managers.

http://nationmultimedia.com/2006/08/10/hea...es_30010758.php

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/10Aug2006_news02.php

Edited by Plus
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Airport fiasco an embarrassment

THAI's labour union is right to resist the dangerous demands of an unstable political leader

Caretaker Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra stooped to a new low when he demanded - in a fresh attempt to shore up his sagging popularity - that the national flag carrier Thai Airways International start operating its domestic flights out of Suvarnabhumi airport two weeks ahead of the September 28 opening. The lengths to which the Thai Rak Thai leader will go to promote himself are a national embarrassment, particularly when it comes to such cheap publicity stunts that none but the most gullible would accept.

Thaksin was roundly snubbed on Wednesday by THAI's labour union, which strongly objected to his call for THAI to move its domestic operations to the new airport from September 15. They cited the practical and logistical problems that would arise, causing scheduling chaos and inconveniencing passengers.

Inbound international passengers who need to connect to flights to domestic destinations, as well as passengers arriving in Bangkok on domestic services to catch outbound international flights would face the impossible task of travelling between the two airports by road through Bangkok's notorious traffic jams. That is because all international flights will continue to take off and land at Don Muang until the switch to Suvarnabhumi on September 28.

This means many passengers who need to change planes could miss their flights and THAI would have take responsibility for their hotel accommodation and other expenses. THAI's union said that if the government insisted on opening the new airport ahead of schedule for domestic flights, it would ask its members not to report for duty at Suvarnabhumi Airport.

Apart from the inconvenience to passengers, which should be taken very seriously and avoided by any airline, there are other problems pertaining to safety. According to THAI's union, maintenance crews would not be able to work on aircraft at Suvarnabhumi until the September 28 switchover because most of their equipment and spare parts will still be at Don Muang, where maintenance and repair work on aircraft serving domestic and international routes is done.

Most THAI employees learned of Thaksin's plan on Saturday, when the caretaker prime minister announced it on his weekly radio address, perhaps to impress the rural masses that make up Thai Rak Thai Party's traditional base of support. For Thaksin, who likes to portray himself as a tenacious CEO-style leader who gets things done, the situation reflects poorly on his leadership, which has not only turned out to be corruption-prone, but also very unsophisticated, to say the least. THAI is a major company with a global business to run and international customers to serve. It operates in a cut-throat business environment. The national flag carrier should not be subjected to the whims of an uncouth and unstable political leader. THAI's union did the right thing in resisting Thaksin's attempt to run the airline. After all, no professionally run airline could succumb to this kind of political pressure and hope to maintain its credibility.

Thaksin and his Cabinet must learn to treat the aviation industry with the respect that it deserves, regardless of the complaints that we, passengers, might have over the services provided by THAI and other airlines. The aviation industry is not a toy for confused politicians to play around with. More fundamentally, the fact that such a haphazard approach to the Suvarnabhumi switchover has been allowed to stand as official policy says a lot about the quality of this country's approach to public administration, not to mention the immaturity of our top political leader.

The transition to Suvarnabhumi could have been and should still be planned methodically, with the full participation of all stakeholders, including international airlines. Moving to a new airport is much more complicated than moving into a new house. As it stands, airlines are being notified at short notice about the new relocation plan, which even now continues to evolve. The situation only increases the likelihood of chaos when the new airport officially opens.

There is no time for the authorities to undertake the safety evaluations needed to maintain international standards. The airport fiasco shows Thailand is still a long way from being the respectable country we desire to be. As long as we empower politicians who know next to nothing about sound governance, they will muck it up for all of us.

EDITORIAL

The Nation

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Thaksin was roundly snubbed on Wednesday by THAI's labour union, which strongly objected to his call for THAI to move its domestic operations to the new airport from September 15. They cited the practical and logistical problems that would arise, causing scheduling chaos and inconveniencing passengers.

Inbound international passengers who need to connect to flights to domestic destinations, as well as passengers arriving in Bangkok on domestic services to catch outbound international flights would face the impossible task of travelling between the two airports by road through Bangkok's notorious traffic jams. That is because all international flights will continue to take off and land at Don Muang until the switch to Suvarnabhumi on September 28.

I have a very hard time understanding what the powers-that-be think they gain by rushing to partially open a project two weeks early that has been 46 years in the making. Do they honestly think they'll somehow make themselves look great by semi-beating a self-imposed deadline that has been changed more times over the years than one cares to remember?

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