Expat Package Negotiating

[kc_phil]

...but i dont want to goof up!

I have posted a numebr of times regarding an international job search. This week I had an interview and it went smashingly!

I am supposed to hear from the firm's director shortly to discuss a deal and i don't want to goof up the negotiations.

For the sake of background: I am a 33 year old, American architect trying to strike a deal with a firm (HQ in Hong Kong) to work on a job in Singapore. I have 10 years of applicable project experience and I recently graduated with a Masters of Business Administration degree from an American University.

I am applying for a project design/management assignment that could easily lead to a strategic position & my spending 10 years with the organization.

During my interview, we spoke a bit about money. It was made clear that the company paid straight salary and would not be putting together an elaborate expat package.

When he asked me a dollar amount, I told him I was felt I was worth six figures in US dollars (approx. SD160,000, HKD750,000) but would be willing to negotiate based upon perks. I told him to make me an offer and we could go from there. (Was this Mistake #1?)

I am attempting to put together the list of negotiating points and I would like some feedback. I don’t want to put anything on the list that sounds to ‘pie in the sky’ or makes me seem like a primadonna. This is the first time I have seriously negotiated for a management grade compensation package.

This is the list I came up with:

- Trips to the US for both the AIA convention and Autodesk University (continuing education/professional development gatherings), in the interest of scouting oncoming trends on the cutting edge of architectural practice and technology

- American Institute of Architects (AIA) membership dues

- Windows compatible PDA/Mobile phone

- Laptop computer capable of running all necessary design software. (DELL M70 or better)

- All Visa and Work Permit related Legal fees to be covered by the firm.

- Business class fare for all trans continental air travel

I don’t know what is appropriate to request in regards to vacation time. In the USA, vacation time is adequate on paper but scarce in prectice and though the firm is managed by Brits, I have no idea how it is treated in professional positions overseas.

Also should things like raise/bonus schedule and performance review methodology be discussed in this conversation?

I know this isn't directly related to Thailand but I posted this same query on forums for Sinagpore and HK expats and got no response. I know you guys are a bit more verbose and have a great track record....please mods have mercy

Any feedback or tips on how to handle my situation would be greatly appreciated.

Edited June 9, 2006 by kc_phil

[GuestHouse]

Start with what matters first.

Pay.

Visas and Work Permits

Health Insurance

Leave

Extras:

Transport

Car with first class insurance

Ask what the company travel policy is regarding flights and what class tickets you get.

Tools for the Job - Don't go specifying stuff until you know what systems are being used in the company.

Computer

Phone

Phone bills paid

Perks

Travel to conventions etc

Professional Membership Fees

I can't advise on rates because I don't know what you are worth in the market you are moving into. If you are offering genuine professional services and the company are genuinely looking for a professional with your experience then ask for the rate you would get back home. (Perhaps with an uplift).

If the company are not looking for genuine professional services (or worse still don't understand the need for professional services) be prepared to be undercut by every Tom, Dick and Harry that gets wind of that there is a job for the taking.

I personally work on the basis that I expect the rate and conditions that I would get elsewhere. I never take a cut in order to go to a particular place, but I will ask for more money if the location is what I consider a ‘hardship’ posting.

You are entering mid career, you’ve worked and I presume paid for your qualifications, now make getting the return a priority. If you can get that return in Thailand, then good for you but don't make the location the priority.

[BKK90210]

Are you a licenced architect in the US?

Six figures seem fair if you have a licence. If not....then it's too high

[kc_phil]

Are you a licenced architect in the US?

Six figures seem fair if you have a licence. If not....then it's too high

I earned a license in 2002....my mom was so proud.

Thanks for the great insights!

kcp

[tutsiwarrior]

I'd say USD150k+ is reasonable from a US/European employer if you are a senior but non-management type in a technical field. Expenses vary according to accommodation and transport costs (S'pore very expensive compared to BKK or Jakarta). If you're looking at a lump sum figure then consider your home salary with a 35% uplift + local transport + accommodation + med insurance + 3 x flights home per year + international school fees (if applicable). A company laptop and mobile are usually part of a standard offering. Plus, you should not be expected to spend any time or money hassling with immigration probs, work permits etc. Also make sure that any local tax liability is handled by the employer.

Also check out the leave allowance. Useta be 42 calendar days per year was normal now most places offer 20 working days + travel days. Is there a minimum period abroad before you can claim leave?(in some cases 1 year if married status but 3 months if single). Also nice to know that there is a compassionate leave clause if something happens at home while you're away(full pay, flights and accommodation provided).

If you've got the goods and they're interested don't be afraid to follow the above guidelines. Be flexible but only to a degree...if you are presently employed in a permanent position then you have an edge.

onward and upward...

Edited June 9, 2006 by tutsiwarrior

[Prakanong2005]

An Excellent post by Guesthouse

"personally work on the basis that I expect the rate and conditions that I would get elsewhere. I never take a cut in order to go to a particular place, but I will ask for more money if the location is what I consider a ‘hardship’ posting."

The only comment I have about this is that many MNC's are now having only "Local Contracts" - very good by local standards but still a local contract.

I know one guy who recently had to resign his job in London with a company you all know to be re-employed locally in the LOC in Singapore.

He has all visa's paid for and excellent healthcare using the best hospitals such as Raffles but its still a local contract ie no flights home and no housing or international school allowance.

I know a few other companies have this policy but it all depends how bad they want you.

If they can employ locally albeit at a very good local salary they will.

Which industry and job market you are in will also be very relevant.

[kc_phil]

From tutsiwarrior:

Also make sure that any local tax liability is handled by the employer.

and

From Prakanong2005:

I know one guy who recently had to resign his job in London with a company you all know to be re-employed locally in the LOC in Singapore.

He has all visa's paid for and excellent healthcare using the best hospitals such as Raffles but its still a local contract ie no flights home and no housing or international school allowance.

How do these two statements work together? Looking around, I have seen a few comments about the first $70K USD earned overseas being tax exempt. My father is an accountant so i am not too concerned about my US Tax situation. However i know nothing about paying income tax in another country.

I came away from the interview with the perception that this company hires people on the basis of a local contract, realizing that certain strains of experience can only be imported.

tutssi, when you say local taxes should be handled by the employer, is that money beyond the base salary or subtracted from the base salary through withholdings from each check? i don't quite understand how this works in the frame of overseas employment.

Thanks for the input guys

[GuestHouse]

I know one guy who recently had to resign his job in London with a company you all know to be re-employed locally in the LOC in Singapore.

I left Thailand when my employers offered me a local deal. They gave me the hardship story about not being able afford the expat deal in Thailand, so I asked to be assigned to somewhere where they could afford the expat deal. Others did not, and took the local deal, no pension and no payrises since the took the deal (Three years ago).

I work for a living, not to be constantly under threat of unemployment just because I like the location.

For me, one of the worst aspects of working in Thailand is the willingness of some other guy to undercut you in his desperation to stay there.

Earn money, save and then live where you want on your own terms.

[tjo o tjim]

I think you sold yourself short at $100k. For you to be worth hiring, you would need to be in a client leadership position.

My recommendation is for you to get them to cover a reasonable relocation allowance, first 60 days in temporary housing, all visa costs, and a travel budget back home. $10k is a reasonable travel budget, to be used at your discretion for personal and professional development. Healthcare and professional fees are important.

I would worry less about vacation time, unless you are focusing on a long-term position with this company. You are most likely going to get market vacation.

But, it really scares me that you would list AU as a professional development event. AIA, sure, no problems... but AU?! That doesn't help you with the upsell. They aren't hiring a CAD manager, are they?!

No help for Singapore, but when I was working for a US company in HK, I got 33% of my salary for housing allowance, 10% for health benefits, and 20% for travel benefits. When they screwed up my visa and had to pay me cash for a few monts, I ended up with about double my salary in total compensation. This was in '99.

Good luck!

[Prakanong2005]

I know one guy who recently had to resign his job in London with a company you all know to be re-employed locally in the LOC in Singapore.

I left Thailand when my employers offered me a local deal. They gave me the hardship story about not being able afford the expat deal in Thailand, so I asked to be assigned to somewhere where they could afford the expat deal. Others did not, and took the local deal, no pension and no payrises since the took the deal (Three years ago).

I work for a living, not to be constantly under threat of unemployment just because I like the location.

For me, one of the worst aspects of working in Thailand is the willingness of some other guy to undercut you in his desperation to stay there.

Earn money, save and then live where you want on your own terms.

I totally agree with you - its part of the reason that I am going to turn down a very good job in Singapore tomorrow as Regional ###### - you know who I work for from other comm's but I am not paying to work for them.

No relocation etc plus 60% pay cut yak yak yak

I am going to travel with my wife for 6 months throughout Thailand and SE Asia as a cheap charley - no more 15K THB this trip - we deserve it!

Oop it a banned word (for good - above - lets say information technology then

Edited June 11, 2006 by Prakanong2005

[Digger]

One very important thing to be considering is what is the nett package worth after taxes are deducted. Personal income tax in Singapore is very low - typically about 12-15% from memory for a US$ salary around 100,000.

Also if they are offering an enhanced local package - forget the thought of home leave tickets, hosuing allowances etc - they generally are not included. Basically it sounds like they will offer you a fixed salary with little bells and whistles - if your a single guy, most of these are really not important - I used to have membership paid for the British Club by my employer but I never went more than about three times as I thought it was boring.

So what you need to calculating is what is it likely to cost you for a condo (probably somewhere around 2500SG$ for a 1500 Sq foot apartment in a premium area but not exactly on Orchard Road, what your in for in terms of income tax both in SIngapore and in the USA. From this work back against what your nett earning is in the USA at the moment.

[thaigene2]

You didn't mention kids so I assume it's not an issue to you. For others with families, and relocating on cash-only deals, beware..be VERY aware.

International schools are not a luxury in a non-english language country, they are pretty much a necessity, since if you leave a few years after arriving you need to be sure they are learning the right stuff at the right time - and not in some bilingual school learning the local curriculum. There are several US curriculum schools, English-style O and A levels, etc..here.

ALL of these range from 8-12,000 USD per year per kid. And the better ones charge a non-refundable 'entry fee' of around 10,000 per kid.

I know expats who work in the UN here (who make pretty good dosh) but don't have the education allowance because of the nature of their contracts (e.g. hired locally or it's simply not part of their individual contract), and they moan long and loud about this. Think about it..if you had 2 kids, the first year would cost you $ 40,000 !! If they're giving you 100,000 in salary it sounds pretty good..but not afterwards!

Int'l schools in other cities in this region aren't quite as expensive but still close..