Thai universities miss 'young' top 100 list

[Robby nz]

Reading through this topic it would seem that we have here several posters who are working in the field of university education in this country.

The main comments are critical of the system so a (probably silly) idea has come to me.

The topic of reforms is open for discussion so how about those of you, either together or individually, putting together your ideas of how the Thai education system should be reformed.

Possibly I'm the only one who would be interested but then you never know and there could just be an outside chance that you could have some positive input if anything does ever happen.

Anyway it would be nice to read something other than the negativity and criticism that fills most topics.

[MrJohnson]

Among the reasons Thai universities are not on the Young 50 List and/or can't crack the top 400 of the overall list:

1. Few publications in English means nobody is going to cite them.

2. Few presentations at international conferences means few people are going to know them

3. Force people to retire at 60, when many in Europe and the US teach into their 70s and actually increase their research and publication rate--especially later in their career.

4. Relatively few PhDs (and reliance on online PhDs when they do get them) compared to PhD as a minimum requirement in the West for even the most basic consideration of a job.

5. No serious libraries = No serious research.

OTOH, Thai universities do like to build a lot of buildings. It's just that there is nothing in them. Potemkin Universities, you might call them.

Have you actually spent very much time in a Thai academic environment? I have at a major university, for over 20 years and will address your points.

1. All the graduate & PhD candidates produce publications in English, both National and International. I proof many of the manuscripts and after peer review comes back from the publishers, I help with the errors.

2. Many International presentations are done by our students. Recently one in Japan where one of our PhD candidates came in 1st place with his presentation even over several Japanese students.

3. There is mandatory retirement at 60 at government universities but if one has strong contributions they can continue work via annual contracts. I know several doing such.

4. Our lab has many PhDs, most with International training for their PhD thesis work and post grad work. At least half are female physicists.

5. Libraries are limited but papers and others are obtainable via the Internet. When I write a research publication I have to get my references through this method and it works very well. We do very serious research, many are areas never done in Thailand and very limited similar projects Internationally. One such project is in super cooling atoms in quantum physics for things like quantum computers, more precise atomic clocks, etc. Not weak areas of research by any means.

Easy to sit on the sidelines and criticize.

We must be living in some kind of strange parallel universe then.

[zydeco]

Reading through this topic it would seem that we have here several posters who are working in the field of university education in this country.

The main comments are critical of the system so a (probably silly) idea has come to me.

The topic of reforms is open for discussion so how about those of you, either together or individually, putting together your ideas of how the Thai education system should be reformed.

Possibly I'm the only one who would be interested but then you never know and there could just be an outside chance that you could have some positive input if anything does ever happen.

Anyway it would be nice to read something other than the negativity and criticism that fills most topics.

Okay, here is the positive. Many of the students are, in fact, talented and smart. But a good percentage--far over half--are lazy beyond imagination. They have also become cynical. If you think those of us in this system are negative, you should listen to the utterly scornful attitude of the students. They expect corruption. They expect an inferior education. Show a sincere interest in them, however, and many do respond. But many of my students are on a predetermined life path. After their undergraduate degree, they go to the US or UK for a graduate degree--usually in business, never mind their undergraduate field of study. Then, most will come back to help run the family business.

Reforms? Number one on the list in transparency and accountability--especially with all those building projects I mentioned earlier. And if there is a problem, solve it. Don't resort to the default cover-up.

Number two is to end the top down cronyism and status quo thinking (as if THAT will ever happen).

Number three push a more rigorous research track among the faculty (notice the word "rigorous"). You cannot teach effectively unless you keep yourself current in your own field. And this means hiring people who actually like to do this sort of thing, instead of just taking the job as an acceptable means of keeping busy that meets social expectations. Far too much of a belief in entitlement exists at the administrative level. (Obviously, like everything else, here.)

Number four is the development administrators with the courage to upset people. Thai universities simply want everything to be harmonious at all costs. And that is not a good environment to produce research, explore ideas, or challenge existing methods.

Believe it or not, the raw material (inherently bright students) is there. But the system fails them utterly. And it would be nice to see more merit based tuition grants and support to take clever people from the provinces and unmoneyed into universities.

Edited May 5, 2014 by zydeco

[surangw]

how many rich ( stupid) persons pay for degrees from thai universities ? that might have more to do with it.

[zydeco]

how many rich ( stupid) persons pay for degrees from thai universities ? that might have more to do with it.

A surprisingly large number of "stupid persons" make their way into universities all across the globe. I taught at an American university that received the NCAA "death penalty" because of widespread corruption and cheating. A year before they were caught, an entire row of the cheaters sat at the rear of one of my lecture classes. They were so stupid stray flies could have wondered into their gaping mouths. Stupid will always find its way into higher education--just for different reasons in different countries.

[GuestHouse]

Just as a matter of interest , how many degree holders in Thailand could actually go out side Thailand's boarders and compete at the same level as say a degree holder from Melbourne uni, the picture I see is that there skills are lower and particularly the English, Thailand is now getting to the stage what Malaysia realized along time ago, that to be an academic you must know English very well, so they lecture in English, otherwise you find a whole country of unemployed degree holders, nobody, as we all know, gives a toss about speaking Thai outside of Thailand.

I recently recommended a Thai engineer (Graduate of KMU) for a job in Europe, she starts at the end of this month on a salary in excess of Euros90K per annum with a bunch of ++ too.

I know a couple of dozen Thai engineers, graduates of Thai universities, earning similar rates around the world and a Thai graduate of NIDA who is working in Rome earning well over that rate.

You might not meet them down your local beer bar, they are far too busy building their careers overseas and earning great money.

[Trotto]

Just as a matter of interest , how many degree holders in Thailand could actually go out side Thailand's boarders and compete at the same level as say a degree holder from Melbourne uni, the picture I see is that there skills are lower and particularly the English, Thailand is now getting to the stage what Malaysia realized along time ago, that to be an academic you must know English very well, so they lecture in English, otherwise you find a whole country of unemployed degree holders, nobody, as we all know, gives a toss about speaking Thai outside of Thailand.

I'm shore that all the Thai degree holders wood get on fine out side Thailand's boarders, even if there English was on a par with your's. It seams that even native English speaker's dont no how to speak english write these day's.

555!!!

Ooops!

I am outside Thailand, so I better use proper English.

Hahaha!!!

[PaullyW]

how many rich ( stupid) persons pay for degrees from thai universities ? that might have more to do with it.

A surprisingly large number of "stupid persons" make their way into universities all across the globe. I taught at an American university that received the NCAA "death penalty" because of widespread corruption and cheating. A year before they were caught, an entire row of the cheaters sat at the rear of one of my lecture classes. They were so stupid stray flies could have wondered into their gaping mouths. Stupid will always find its way into higher education--just for different reasons in different countries.

Yet, obviously not enough are so dumb at enough top universities in the US to bring down the average enough that no US university makes the cut.

[PaullyW]

Just as a matter of interest , how many degree holders in Thailand could actually go out side Thailand's boarders and compete at the same level as say a degree holder from Melbourne uni, the picture I see is that there skills are lower and particularly the English, Thailand is now getting to the stage what Malaysia realized along time ago, that to be an academic you must know English very well, so they lecture in English, otherwise you find a whole country of unemployed degree holders, nobody, as we all know, gives a toss about speaking Thai outside of Thailand.

I recently recommended a Thai engineer (Graduate of KMU) for a job in Europe, she starts at the end of this month on a salary in excess of Euros90K per annum with a bunch of ++ too.

I know a couple of dozen Thai engineers, graduates of Thai universities, earning similar rates around the world and a Thai graduate of NIDA who is working in Rome earning well over that rate.

You might not meet them down your local beer bar, they are far too busy building their careers overseas and earning great money.

I get it. You're responding to the previous post which was extreme with your own extreme based on individual anecdotes.

It's apparent that almost none of those engineers stay in Thailand and/or have any impact on anything engineering related here. We can see that by just looking around at the embarrassing state of most engineering works in Thailand.

Anyway, I know the point of your post was to oppose the other extreme post but honestly nobody would be convinced that your experience is very common in Thailand and certainly not common enough to change the university rankings or change our experience or perception here.

Most Thais who graduate (even from their most elite universities) are at the time of graduation very poorly educated. Further, they are culturally disadvantaged as they've been taught that rather than the most important things being to pursue their ambitions, they are to follow orders from hierarchy and flaunt their place in it. So, even despite their minimal education, they suffer from this inability to effect any real change in Thailand (generation after generation).

Look around at the country. It's easy to see the results everywhere you look.

[Robby nz]

Reading through this topic it would seem that we have here several posters who are working in the field of university education in this country.

The main comments are critical of the system so a (probably silly) idea has come to me.

The topic of reforms is open for discussion so how about those of you, either together or individually, putting together your ideas of how the Thai education system should be reformed.

Possibly I'm the only one who would be interested but then you never know and there could just be an outside chance that you could have some positive input if anything does ever happen.

Anyway it would be nice to read something other than the negativity and criticism that fills most topics.

Okay, here is the positive. Many of the students are, in fact, talented and smart. But a good percentage--far over half--are lazy beyond imagination. They have also become cynical. If you think those of us in this system are negative, you should listen to the utterly scornful attitude of the students. They expect corruption. They expect an inferior education. Show a sincere interest in them, however, and many do respond. But many of my students are on a predetermined life path. After their undergraduate degree, they go to the US or UK for a graduate degree--usually in business, never mind their undergraduate field of study. Then, most will come back to help run the family business.

Reforms? Number one on the list in transparency and accountability--especially with all those building projects I mentioned earlier. And if there is a problem, solve it. Don't resort to the default cover-up.

Number two is to end the top down cronyism and status quo thinking (as if THAT will ever happen).

Number three push a more rigorous research track among the faculty (notice the word "rigorous"). You cannot teach effectively unless you keep yourself current in your own field. And this means hiring people who actually like to do this sort of thing, instead of just taking the job as an acceptable means of keeping busy that meets social expectations. Far too much of a belief in entitlement exists at the administrative level. (Obviously, like everything else, here.)

Number four is the development administrators with the courage to upset people. Thai universities simply want everything to be harmonious at all costs. And that is not a good environment to produce research, explore ideas, or challenge existing methods.

Believe it or not, the raw material (inherently bright students) is there. But the system fails them utterly. And it would be nice to see more merit based tuition grants and support to take clever people from the provinces and unmoneyed into universities.

Thanks for that Zydeco.

I am off for a few days now but would like to come back to this when I return.

Reason being that I have the Mrs sisters 10 yr old boy with me at present, a real bright kid and want to see him make the most of his life.

[Genericnic]

Among the reasons Thai universities are not on the Young 50 List and/or can't crack the top 400 of the overall list:

1. Few publications in English means nobody is going to cite them.

2. Few presentations at international conferences means few people are going to know them

3. Force people to retire at 60, when many in Europe and the US teach into their 70s and actually increase their research and publication rate--especially later in their career.

4. Relatively few PhDs (and reliance on online PhDs when they do get them) compared to PhD as a minimum requirement in the West for even the most basic consideration of a job.

5. No serious libraries = No serious research.

OTOH, Thai universities do like to build a lot of buildings. It's just that there is nothing in them. Potemkin Universities, you might call them.

Have you actually spent very much time in a Thai academic environment? I have at a major university, for over 20 years and will address your points.

1. All the graduate & PhD candidates produce publications in English, both National and International. I proof many of the manuscripts and after peer review comes back from the publishers, I help with the errors.

2. Many International presentations are done by our students. Recently one in Japan where one of our PhD candidates came in 1st place with his presentation even over several Japanese students.

3. There is mandatory retirement at 60 at government universities but if one has strong contributions they can continue work via annual contracts. I know several doing such.

4. Our lab has many PhDs, most with International training for their PhD thesis work and post grad work. At least half are female physicists.

5. Libraries are limited but papers and others are obtainable via the Internet. When I write a research publication I have to get my references through this method and it works very well. We do very serious research, many are areas never done in Thailand and very limited similar projects Internationally. One such project is in super cooling atoms in quantum physics for things like quantum computers, more precise atomic clocks, etc. Not weak areas of research by any means.

Easy to sit on the sidelines and criticize.

1. Just publishing, in English or any other language, is not the same as being cited. Good, innovative, and creative work is cited. Thai publications, even those in English, don't seem to be cited often

2. Doing international presentations is not a contest. I've never been to an international symposium that ranked presentations, though I have seen some excellent presentations by unskilled presenters and some absolute crap presented by excellent BS artists ... excuse me, I meant presenters.

3. Strong contributions without tenure basically should be read as don't rock the boat and you can stay on. In the US, we refer to it as "the good old boy system."

4. There is no PhD thesis. It is a dissertation. Being male or female makes no impact on the quality of staff or students. Brain power and inquisitiveness know no gender.

5. Libraries are the lifeblood of research. Don't believe it, look at the libraries in all the major research universities in the world. Not all papers and publications are available through the internet, especially some of the small, innovative, journals that publish cutting edge work. And, the last time I looked, inter library loans was not very well developed in Thailand.

Just my thoughts.

David

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[geriatrickid]

Just as a matter of interest , how many degree holders in Thailand could actually go out side Thailand's boarders and compete at the same level as say a degree holder from Melbourne uni, the picture I see is that there skills are lower and particularly the English, Thailand is now getting to the stage what Malaysia realized along time ago, that to be an academic you must know English very well, so they lecture in English, otherwise you find a whole country of unemployed degree holders, nobody, as we all know, gives a toss about speaking Thai outside of Thailand.

I appreciate your criticism. However, please understand that Thailand's universities serve the local market and the students they graduate are intended to meet local needs. There is lots to criticize about Thailand's universities but IMO they are more in sync with Thailand's current needs than universities in other countries who offer diplomas in fringe subjects with little applicability to the real world.

I disagree with you as to the requirement to be an academic "you must know English very well". I have worked with French and Italian scientists who have had limited knowledge of English and yet they managed to advance their vaccine research. Japanese universities have been at the forefront of earthquake research particularly in building materials and structural design. Some of those people have very poor English language skills.

Yes, people don't give a toss about speaking Thai outside of Thailand, but go into the hinterland of Italy or France or Poland or Brazil and people have limited English language skills.

Are you aware that for many Masters programs, and for almost all doctorate programs, a successful graduate must demonstrate knowledge of a second language? This is a common characteristic of universities. In Thailand, the emphasis is on the local market and region and that means there is an interest in Korean, Japanese and Chinese languages. The world does not revolve around the English language in SE Asia.

[Tywais]

1. Just publishing, in English or any other language, is not the same as being cited. Good, innovative, and creative work is cited. Thai publications, even those in English, don't seem to be cited often

2. Doing international presentations is not a contest. I've never been to an international symposium that ranked presentations, though I have seen some excellent presentations by unskilled presenters and some absolute crap presented by excellent BS artists ... excuse me, I meant presenters.

3. Strong contributions without tenure basically should be read as don't rock the boat and you can stay on. In the US, we refer to it as "the good old boy system."

4. There is no PhD thesis. It is a dissertation. Being male or female makes no impact on the quality of staff or students. Brain power and inquisitiveness know no gender.

5. Libraries are the lifeblood of research. Don't believe it, look at the libraries in all the major research universities in the world. Not all papers and publications are available through the internet, especially some of the small, innovative, journals that publish cutting edge work. And, the last time I looked, inter library loans was not very well developed in Thailand.

1. At least at our research facility I know our work has been cited numerous times. Just received an e-mail last week for a publication that I am co-author in from Elsevier that ours was cited in Nuclear Instruments and Methods in Physics Research Section A: Accelerators. That is one of the top tier International physics publications.

2. Google 'international science presentations awards' if you don't believe that.

4. Guess you need to let Harvard know there are no PhD Thesis - http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~htk/thesis.htm

5. I did forget to mention that we do order or request research publications as needed though I agree, not efficient but is a valid method and many universities world wide get material this way.

Don't know why those without significant direct experience in Thai universities keep posting without a clue. Perhaps our university is unique as I'm basing my discussion on my direct experience at one major uni.

[GuestHouse]

I get it. You're responding to the previous post which was extreme with your own extreme based on individual anecdotes.

It's apparent that almost none of those engineers stay in Thailand and/or have any impact on anything engineering related here. We can see that by just looking around at the embarrassing state of most engineering works in Thailand.

Anyway, I know the point of your post was to oppose the other extreme post but honestly nobody would be convinced that your experience is very common in Thailand and certainly not common enough to change the university rankings or change our experience or perception here.

Most Thais who graduate (even from their most elite universities) are at the time of graduation very poorly educated. Further, they are culturally disadvantaged as they've been taught that rather than the most important things being to pursue their ambitions, they are to follow orders from hierarchy and flaunt their place in it. So, even despite their minimal education, they suffer from this inability to effect any real change in Thailand (generation after generation).

Look around at the country. It's easy to see the results everywhere you look.

Well except, I've spent 0ver 15 years working in Thailand with the products of Thai universities, with Thai engineers educated in Thai universities and who work in Thailand - I have very very seldom come across any who are not a match in every respect for engineers of their age anywhere in the world. (And I have been around the block). When it comes to enthusiasm to for their work and to learn they not only match but better most young professionals I meet elsewhere.

I was last night discussing subjects for MSc Thesis with a graduate of a Thai university, her own choice 'The Domestic Energy Market and Government Policy' - as bright, well educated and well informed an individual as you might meet anywhere.

Such a change from the expat barstool guardians with their boorish view based on the smudged image they have through the bottom of a glass of self delusion.

[Kudel]

Just as a matter of interest , how many degree holders in Thailand could actually go out side Thailand's boarders and compete at the same level as say a degree holder from Melbourne uni, the picture I see is that there skills are lower and particularly the English, Thailand is now getting to the stage what Malaysia realized along time ago, that to be an academic you must know English very well, so they lecture in English, otherwise you find a whole country of unemployed degree holders, nobody, as we all know, gives a toss about speaking Thai outside of Thailand.

I recently recommended a Thai engineer (Graduate of KMU) for a job in Europe, she starts at the end of this month on a salary in excess of Euros90K per annum with a bunch of ++ too.

I know a couple of dozen Thai engineers, graduates of Thai universities, earning similar rates around the world and a Thai graduate of NIDA who is working in Rome earning well over that rate.

You might not meet them down your local beer bar, they are far too busy building their careers overseas and earning great money.

very interesting subject but working in the offshore wind industry myself all over europe and coming in to contact with lots of highly educated engineers from all over i think that 90k Euros per annum is way of the mark geusthouse .

[GuestHouse]

very interesting subject but working in the offshore wind industry myself all over europe and coming in to contact with lots of highly educated engineers from all over i think that 90k Euros per annum is way of the mark geusthouse .

It is not clear if you believe 90K is too high or two low.

Its the going rate for the job the individual has accepted, but by no means the top of the salary range:

https://oilandgasjobsearch.com/Oil-and-Gas-Jobs/Process-Engineer-Jobs/Senior-Process-Engineer/Details/949928

Edited May 6, 2014 by GuestHouse

[gemini81]

Mass production & super low quality. Taking the Chinese concept of factory standards & applying them to universities! Haha. Why, at Ramkhampaeng, you can purchase your exam answers outside the doors of the testing room. As long as they treat it as a farce, it will remain as such.

[gemini81]

how many rich ( stupid) persons pay for degrees from thai universities ? that might have more to do with it.

A surprisingly large number of "stupid persons" make their way into universities all across the globe. I taught at an American university that received the NCAA "death penalty" because of widespread corruption and cheating. A year before they were caught, an entire row of the cheaters sat at the rear of one of my lecture classes. They were so stupid stray flies could have wondered into their gaping mouths. Stupid will always find its way into higher education--just for different reasons in different countries.

Yeah, their Prime Minister is a perfect representation.

[zydeco]

1. Just publishing, in English or any other language, is not the same as being cited. Good, innovative, and creative work is cited. Thai publications, even those in English, don't seem to be cited often

2. Doing international presentations is not a contest. I've never been to an international symposium that ranked presentations, though I have seen some excellent presentations by unskilled presenters and some absolute crap presented by excellent BS artists ... excuse me, I meant presenters.

3. Strong contributions without tenure basically should be read as don't rock the boat and you can stay on. In the US, we refer to it as "the good old boy system."

4. There is no PhD thesis. It is a dissertation. Being male or female makes no impact on the quality of staff or students. Brain power and inquisitiveness know no gender.

5. Libraries are the lifeblood of research. Don't believe it, look at the libraries in all the major research universities in the world. Not all papers and publications are available through the internet, especially some of the small, innovative, journals that publish cutting edge work. And, the last time I looked, inter library loans was not very well developed in Thailand.

1. At least at our research facility I know our work has been cited numerous times. Just received an e-mail last week for a publication that I am co-author in from Elsevier that ours was cited in Nuclear Instruments and Methods in Physics Research Section A: Accelerators. That is one of the top tier International physics publications.

2. Google 'international science presentations awards' if you don't believe that.

4. Guess you need to let Harvard know there are no PhD Thesis - http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~htk/thesis.htm

5. I did forget to mention that we do order or request research publications as needed though I agree, not efficient but is a valid method and many universities world wide get material this way.

Don't know why those without significant direct experience in Thai universities keep posting without a clue. Perhaps our university is unique as I'm basing my discussion on my direct experience at one major uni.

I'm not quite sure we're talking about the same thing. Academic conferences, such as MLA, SCS, and AHA, do not give awards for academic papers or posters. Sometimes, there are special categories of student awards--but not faculty presentations, which I thought was the topic. As for the dissertation versus thesis question, generally speaking, in the US at least, a dissertation accompanies a PhD, while a thesis accompanies an MA. I don't know if one guy at Harvard is the final authority on how that university officially uses the terms. But here is the pertinent paragraph from the Harvard GSAS webpage:

"PhD Dissertation: The students dissertation prospectus must be approved by the department. A student who wishes to present a dissertation as a published article, series of articles, book or other document, or a manuscript that has been accepted for publication, must have the approval of the department concerned. In no case, however, may a dissertation be presented that has already been submitted toward another degree, either at Harvard or elsewhere."

http://www.gsas.harvard.edu/handbook/admission_to_degree_programs_and_degree_req.php

Maybe other schools and departments use it the other way around.

[Tywais]

' I don't know if one guy at Harvard is the final authority on how that university officially uses the terms.

As my posts pertain to Thailand Universities, here is a page from a Thai PhD 'thesis' (author name removed). I have proofed PhD thesis myself in Thailand and quite familiar with the term as it applies here. And yes, when I was at a university in the US dissertation was the term used.

And for the UK - Outside the academic community, the terms thesis and dissertation are interchangeable. At universities in the United Kingdom, the term thesis is usually associated with PhD/EngD (doctoral) and research master's degrees, while dissertation is the more common term for a substantial project submitted as part of a taught master's degree or an undergraduate degree (e.g. BA, BSc, BMus, BEd, BEng etc.).