Can we shrink fat by cutting off it's blood supply?

[Jingthing]

This doctor seems to think so.

While this science is developing, I am certainly on board with the idea that for promoting health and preventing disease it matters very much WHICH FOODS we eat.

It's not only a cold numbers SIMPLE MATH calories game.

The "disease" we focus on in this forum is OBESITY.

Be clear the video is mostly about cancer treatment and prevention, BUT he draws some really interesting parallels to obesity treatment and prevention.

The short discussion on obesity starts at:

16:40

The list of anti-angiogenesis foods (which this doctor links to preventing both cancer AND obesity) is here:

13:04

Many of these foods are also VERY DELICIOUS. Hurrah for that. (I currently eat many of these foods regularly and I'm sure many of you do too, but it doesn't hurt to see some REINFORCEMENT for that.)

I certainly suggest watching the entire video to really understand the research and thought behind the doctor's conclusions.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Jingthing

[bkkjames]

suppose this explains the accidents by hanging...

[eeeya]

gangrene is probably worse than fat though

[Jingthing]

This isn't a joke topic. Responses like those above indicate people who didn't even look at the source info.

Here is a graphic of the antiangiogenic foods:

It's interesting to note that many of these are available in urban Thailand at reasonable prices. Refer to the video for more detailed info on the RELATIVE STRENGTH of the items on this list.

[bkkjames]

This isn't a joke topic. Responses like those above indicate people who didn't even look at the source info.

Here is a graphic of the antiangiogenic foods:

antiangiogenic.jpg

It's interesting to note that many of these are available in urban Thailand at reasonable prices. Refer to the video for more detailed info on the RELATIVE STRENGTH of the items on this list.

I particular recommend the use of "Others"

[Jingthing]

Comments about the actual topic are welcome. Silly garbage posts are not. This is in a HEALTH forum.

[bkkjames]

Comments about the actual topic are welcome. Silly garbage posts are not. This is in a HEALTH forum.

I was commenting on the last thing in your fancy list. Others.

What does that mean? Others?

Throws the whole list into doubt.... carry on with your crusade.

[Jingthing]

This is not a crusade. I just shared some info that I think might be helpful and interesting to people effected by obesity issues, or wanting to PREVENT them. The link between cancer and obesity is also something that I don't remember being covered on this forum. Of course it is known that obesity increases the risk of developing cancer. William Lee's primary interest is cancer research but his research does appear to have relevance to obesity as well.

"Others" obviously means that the entire list of these substances is not shown on ONE slide. Also note that in cancer treatment research the idea is to find more TARGETED substances/medications for particular problems. For example a medication that works well for one type of cancer might be ineffective on another.

A food list as shown is more about a "black box" approach at taking a stab at PREVENTION and possibly treatment (cancer, obesity, "other" diseases as well). If you do a BUNCH of those things regularly chances are if this approach does work (and evidence is provided that it does) that you are helping yourself.

This is perhaps a newer way of looking at these things. More research is needed. I don't think many people are going to find a big problem with most of the foods on that list anyway. Most are known as generally as health promoting foods. Some might be controversial like SOY and wine.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Jingthing

[bkkjames]

This is not a crusade. I just shared some info that I think might be helpful and interesting to people effected by obesity issues, or wanting to PREVENT them. The link between cancer and obesity is also something that I don't remember being covered on this forum. Of course it is known that obesity increases the risk of developing cancer. William Lee's primary interest is cancer research but his research does appear to have relevance to obesity as well.

ok mate. For the record, I do believe that there is a correlation and that by eating some foods - especially dark chocolate in huge quantities had got to be good for you

(edit - my wink is in no way meant to be flirtative)

[h90]

This is not a crusade. I just shared some info that I think might be helpful and interesting to people effected by obesity issues, or wanting to PREVENT them. The link between cancer and obesity is also something that I don't remember being covered on this forum. Of course it is known that obesity increases the risk of developing cancer. William Lee's primary interest is cancer research but his research does appear to have relevance to obesity as well.

ok mate. For the record, I do believe that there is a correlation and that by eating some foods - especially dark chocolate in huge quantities had got to be good for you

(edit - my wink is in no way meant to be flirtative)

Even better with red wine....The red wine and chocolate diet...that sounds like something I can get through...

[Jingthing]

Remember fat is fat CELLS. Not talking here about applying tourniquets to fat body parts.

[Jingthing]

ok mate. For the record, I do believe that there is a correlation and that by eating some foods - especially dark chocolate in huge quantities had got to be good for you

(edit - my wink is in no way meant to be flirtative)

I know dark chocolate is good but huge quantities I would think not.

[Carmine6]

I think the anti-cancer properties seems plausible, particularly since there are clearly things that increase cancer risk. Has to be foods that work the other way. Not so convinced on the fat reduction part due to blood restriction. Though at least some of those items are said to help with weight loss - ginseng, tumeric, citrus, berries, garlic, green tea. Maybe it is blood flow, maybe something else. If it works, let them figure out why later.

Weight loss and maintenance would seem to be a side benefit of increasing the amount of vegetables and fruit. I went gluten free (or rather drastically reduced as I cheat) and lost 10 pounds in about 2 weeks. Eventually got to 30 pounds by a year as the rate slowed down over time. Mainly because I'm probably only 10 pounds from my "ideal" weight so there's less gains to be had.

Part of what I did was increase fruits and vegetables, and also meat and cheese. Since I can't actually manage to eat so much vegetables, I use a blender to blend stuff so I can throw in something a bit sweeter like an apple or berries to balance the vegetables. I throw lots of stuff in there depending on what I have. Ginger, spinach, celery, cucumber, carrots, kale, limes, oranges, berries, parsley,

I had actually been doing that for a combination of health benefits and replacing wheat and other carbs. I had expected heart disease benefits from that, so it is nice if it helps with cancer control.

On the dark chocolate, it is supposed to be very high percentage of cacao for it to have some health benefits. Like 90% range or something. Since that's the expensive end of the price range, it don't seem likely that people will run into the problem of eating too much of it.

[h90]

I think the anti-cancer properties seems plausible, particularly since there are clearly things that increase cancer risk. Has to be foods that work the other way. Not so convinced on the fat reduction part due to blood restriction. Though at least some of those items are said to help with weight loss - ginseng, tumeric, citrus, berries, garlic, green tea. Maybe it is blood flow, maybe something else. If it works, let them figure out why later.

Weight loss and maintenance would seem to be a side benefit of increasing the amount of vegetables and fruit. I went gluten free (or rather drastically reduced as I cheat) and lost 10 pounds in about 2 weeks. Eventually got to 30 pounds by a year as the rate slowed down over time. Mainly because I'm probably only 10 pounds from my "ideal" weight so there's less gains to be had.

Part of what I did was increase fruits and vegetables, and also meat and cheese. Since I can't actually manage to eat so much vegetables, I use a blender to blend stuff so I can throw in something a bit sweeter like an apple or berries to balance the vegetables. I throw lots of stuff in there depending on what I have. Ginger, spinach, celery, cucumber, carrots, kale, limes, oranges, berries, parsley,

I had actually been doing that for a combination of health benefits and replacing wheat and other carbs. I had expected heart disease benefits from that, so it is nice if it helps with cancer control.

On the dark chocolate, it is supposed to be very high percentage of cacao for it to have some health benefits. Like 90% range or something. Since that's the expensive end of the price range, it don't seem likely that people will run into the problem of eating too much of it.

-30 pounds

That idea with the blender is great! I also don't like to eat vegetables but drinking seems easy...

half a kg of the green stuff is hard to swallow....half a liter of it seems like a few big gulps and down it is.....

[robblok]

I use a special but expensive fruit press that presses even leafy vegetables beets and carrots it works great.

As for killing fat by depriving blood flow.. maybe but i do know to utilize fat (burn it) you need good blood flow in that area because else it is not effective at burning fat at that spot. Remember all nutrients and such are transported through the blood.. fat from the fat cells is no different.

[JSixpack]

I think the anti-cancer properties seems plausible, particularly since there are clearly things that increase cancer risk. Has to be foods that work the other way. Not so convinced on the fat reduction part due to blood restriction. Though at least some of those items are said to help with weight loss - ginseng, tumeric, citrus, berries, garlic, green tea. Maybe it is blood flow, maybe something else. If it works, let them figure out why later.

Weight loss and maintenance would seem to be a side benefit of increasing the amount of vegetables and fruit. I went gluten free (or rather drastically reduced as I cheat) and lost 10 pounds in about 2 weeks. Eventually got to 30 pounds by a year as the rate slowed down over time. Mainly because I'm probably only 10 pounds from my "ideal" weight so there's less gains to be had.

Part of what I did was increase fruits and vegetables, and also meat and cheese. Since I can't actually manage to eat so much vegetables, I use a blender to blend stuff so I can throw in something a bit sweeter like an apple or berries to balance the vegetables. I throw lots of stuff in there depending on what I have. Ginger, spinach, celery, cucumber, carrots, kale, limes, oranges, berries, parsley,

I had actually been doing that for a combination of health benefits and replacing wheat and other carbs. I had expected heart disease benefits from that, so it is nice if it helps with cancer control.

On the dark chocolate, it is supposed to be very high percentage of cacao for it to have some health benefits. Like 90% range or something. Since that's the expensive end of the price range, it don't seem likely that people will run into the problem of eating too much of it.

-30 pounds

That idea with the blender is great! I also don't like to eat vegetables but drinking seems easy...

half a kg of the green stuff is hard to swallow....half a liter of it seems like a few big gulps and down it is.....

Down, then soon out, forcefully.

[robblok]

I think the anti-cancer properties seems plausible, particularly since there are clearly things that increase cancer risk. Has to be foods that work the other way. Not so convinced on the fat reduction part due to blood restriction. Though at least some of those items are said to help with weight loss - ginseng, tumeric, citrus, berries, garlic, green tea. Maybe it is blood flow, maybe something else. If it works, let them figure out why later.

Weight loss and maintenance would seem to be a side benefit of increasing the amount of vegetables and fruit. I went gluten free (or rather drastically reduced as I cheat) and lost 10 pounds in about 2 weeks. Eventually got to 30 pounds by a year as the rate slowed down over time. Mainly because I'm probably only 10 pounds from my "ideal" weight so there's less gains to be had.

Part of what I did was increase fruits and vegetables, and also meat and cheese. Since I can't actually manage to eat so much vegetables, I use a blender to blend stuff so I can throw in something a bit sweeter like an apple or berries to balance the vegetables. I throw lots of stuff in there depending on what I have. Ginger, spinach, celery, cucumber, carrots, kale, limes, oranges, berries, parsley,

I had actually been doing that for a combination of health benefits and replacing wheat and other carbs. I had expected heart disease benefits from that, so it is nice if it helps with cancer control.

On the dark chocolate, it is supposed to be very high percentage of cacao for it to have some health benefits. Like 90% range or something. Since that's the expensive end of the price range, it don't seem likely that people will run into the problem of eating too much of it.

-30 pounds

That idea with the blender is great! I also don't like to eat vegetables but drinking seems easy...

half a kg of the green stuff is hard to swallow....half a liter of it seems like a few big gulps and down it is.....

Down, then soon out, forcefully.

Thankfully don't have that problem with my vegetable juices.. only problem is that some days im to lazy to make them. Plus now with the price of limes (yes its a fruit) it gets expensive as I use 3 in it and a carrot / beet root / kale / garlic / ginger / cucumber / bitter gourd .

It it was not such a hassle i would make it every day like before. It does help to get the vitamins in.

[h90]

I think the anti-cancer properties seems plausible, particularly since there are clearly things that increase cancer risk. Has to be foods that work the other way. Not so convinced on the fat reduction part due to blood restriction. Though at least some of those items are said to help with weight loss - ginseng, tumeric, citrus, berries, garlic, green tea. Maybe it is blood flow, maybe something else. If it works, let them figure out why later.

Weight loss and maintenance would seem to be a side benefit of increasing the amount of vegetables and fruit. I went gluten free (or rather drastically reduced as I cheat) and lost 10 pounds in about 2 weeks. Eventually got to 30 pounds by a year as the rate slowed down over time. Mainly because I'm probably only 10 pounds from my "ideal" weight so there's less gains to be had.

Part of what I did was increase fruits and vegetables, and also meat and cheese. Since I can't actually manage to eat so much vegetables, I use a blender to blend stuff so I can throw in something a bit sweeter like an apple or berries to balance the vegetables. I throw lots of stuff in there depending on what I have. Ginger, spinach, celery, cucumber, carrots, kale, limes, oranges, berries, parsley,

I had actually been doing that for a combination of health benefits and replacing wheat and other carbs. I had expected heart disease benefits from that, so it is nice if it helps with cancer control.

On the dark chocolate, it is supposed to be very high percentage of cacao for it to have some health benefits. Like 90% range or something. Since that's the expensive end of the price range, it don't seem likely that people will run into the problem of eating too much of it.

-30 pounds

That idea with the blender is great! I also don't like to eat vegetables but drinking seems easy...

half a kg of the green stuff is hard to swallow....half a liter of it seems like a few big gulps and down it is.....

Down, then soon out, forcefully.

The big question is what does the body want to tell us:

It tastes bad for humans (unless you feed it to a cow first and than eat the cow).

The body tries to get it out again as fast as the guts can squeeze it out.

Maybe it means that we are carnivore

[h90]

I think the anti-cancer properties seems plausible, particularly since there are clearly things that increase cancer risk. Has to be foods that work the other way. Not so convinced on the fat reduction part due to blood restriction. Though at least some of those items are said to help with weight loss - ginseng, tumeric, citrus, berries, garlic, green tea. Maybe it is blood flow, maybe something else. If it works, let them figure out why later.

Weight loss and maintenance would seem to be a side benefit of increasing the amount of vegetables and fruit. I went gluten free (or rather drastically reduced as I cheat) and lost 10 pounds in about 2 weeks. Eventually got to 30 pounds by a year as the rate slowed down over time. Mainly because I'm probably only 10 pounds from my "ideal" weight so there's less gains to be had.

Part of what I did was increase fruits and vegetables, and also meat and cheese. Since I can't actually manage to eat so much vegetables, I use a blender to blend stuff so I can throw in something a bit sweeter like an apple or berries to balance the vegetables. I throw lots of stuff in there depending on what I have. Ginger, spinach, celery, cucumber, carrots, kale, limes, oranges, berries, parsley,

I had actually been doing that for a combination of health benefits and replacing wheat and other carbs. I had expected heart disease benefits from that, so it is nice if it helps with cancer control.

On the dark chocolate, it is supposed to be very high percentage of cacao for it to have some health benefits. Like 90% range or something. Since that's the expensive end of the price range, it don't seem likely that people will run into the problem of eating too much of it.

-30 pounds

That idea with the blender is great! I also don't like to eat vegetables but drinking seems easy...

half a kg of the green stuff is hard to swallow....half a liter of it seems like a few big gulps and down it is.....

Down, then soon out, forcefully.

Thankfully don't have that problem with my vegetable juices.. only problem is that some days im to lazy to make them. Plus now with the price of limes (yes its a fruit) it gets expensive as I use 3 in it and a carrot / beet root / kale / garlic / ginger / cucumber / bitter gourd .

It it was not such a hassle i would make it every day like before. It does help to get the vitamins in.

The only way I could down that is by mixing adding 30 % vodka. Specially the combination is hard.....

[Jingthing]

Juicing again? Oy!

Maybe we don't need multiple threads on this forum.

Just one thread ... the same posts ... regardless of what the thread is actually supposed to be about.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Jingthing

[robblok]

Juicing again? Oy!

Maybe we don't need multiple threads on this forum.

Just one thread ... the same posts ... regardless of what the thread is actually supposed to be about.

If a thread goes on long enough it will also mention WW2 so be happy that did not happen yet.

I already stated that to burn / use fat you need a good blood supply that is something that has been known.

Could you tell me WHY fat would shrink if there is no blood supply ? Nothing is going in and or out then.

[Jingthing]

Juicing again? Oy!

Maybe we don't need multiple threads on this forum.

Just one thread ... the same posts ... regardless of what the thread is actually supposed to be about.

If a thread goes on long enough it will also mention WW2 so be happy that did not happen yet.

I already stated that to burn / use fat you need a good blood supply that is something that has been known.

Could you tell me WHY fat would shrink if there is no blood supply ? Nothing is going in and or out then.

You added one sentence to make a show of being on topic and then you posted the exact same stuff about your personal schtick with juicing and whatever that you have posted on many other threads.

I am not arguing in favor of the science presented in the link, or against it. Do you imagine I am a trained biologist? I am not and clearly neither are you. So NO I can't respond to your technical question. Perhaps this discussion might attract someone who actually knows about this science who can comment on it critically. Not expecting that but it would be helpful.

You know, it's perfectly OK if threads just don't get any replies if there is nobody who knows enough to reply with anything of value that is actually on topic. All threads don't need to be crammed with FILLER for the heck of it.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Jingthing

[robblok]

Juicing again? Oy!

Maybe we don't need multiple threads on this forum.

Just one thread ... the same posts ... regardless of what the thread is actually supposed to be about.

If a thread goes on long enough it will also mention WW2 so be happy that did not happen yet.

I already stated that to burn / use fat you need a good blood supply that is something that has been known.

Could you tell me WHY fat would shrink if there is no blood supply ? Nothing is going in and or out then.

You added one sentence to make a show of being on topic and then you posted the exact same stuff about your personal schtick with juicing and whatever that you have posted on many other threads.

I am not arguing in favor of the science presented in the link. Do you imagine I am a trained biologist? I am not and clearly neither are you. So NO I can't respond to your technical question. Perhaps this discussion might attract someone who actually knows about this science. Not expecting that but it would be helpful to get a critical look at it from a credible source.

You know, it's perfectly OK if threads just don't get any replies if there is nobody who knows enough to reply anything of value that is actually on topic. All threads don't need to be crammed with FILLER.

Cry me a river.. you always come with some new and improved thing to get rid of fat and have little opinion or backing about it. Then you expect others to stay on topic. Try to add more of yourself, there is a reason why your other thread about garcinia cambogia stays on topic. Because you put real info there and support it instead of just posting a newslink and then not even going into the most basic question.

You don't need to be a trained biologist to have an opinion, all you need is an above average IQ.

I will tell you in easy language so you can follow.

Fat is stored energy that needs to be transported to be used as fuel, that is where the blood supply comes in. By just depriving it of blood you just keep the satus quo it won't die. So far the only way to remove fat cells permanently is liposuction.

[Jingthing]

Right. I think I understand the part fat cells don't die from weight loss. They shrink. Or they expand.

The doctor doesn't say the fat cells will die if fed the beneficial substances. He proposes they will SHRINK.

Other than that I am not educated enough in biology to really know if the objection you raise to the theory in the OP is logical or not. On the surface, your comment sounds really superficial. It sounds like you think you have trashed the science in the OP but I don't believe that as I can tell you aren't a scientist. But fine, you have stated it. I am not going to pose as a scientist when I am no such thing.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Jingthing

[h90]

Juicing again? Oy!

Maybe we don't need multiple threads on this forum.

Just one thread ... the same posts ... regardless of what the thread is actually supposed to be about.

We have 3 things:

1 ) No carbs (me)

2 ) Juicing (Robblok)

3 ) Magic supplements that will allow you to eat more and get less fat. (You)

Whatever the topic is, it ends with these 3 things. Maybe we should be banned from this forum.....

[Jingthing]

Your characterization of GC is completely wrong and reflects something I have NEVER said.

But if you want to discuss that please post on a proper thread.

Cheers.

[robblok]

Right. I think I understand the part fat cells don't die from weight loss. They shrink. Or they expand.

The doctor doesn't say the fat cells will die if fed the beneficial substances. He proposes they will SHRINK.

Other than that I am not educated enough in biology to really know if the objection you raise to the theory in the OP is logical or not. On the surface, your comment sounds really superficial. It sounds like you think you have trashed the science in the OP but I don't believe that as I can tell you aren't a scientist. But fine, you have stated it. I am not going to pose as a scientist when I am no such thing.

You don't need to be a scientist to know the basics. You need to read and understand things not accept everything for the truth.

The basics as I know.. blood supply is needed to transport the energy stored in the fat cells to shrink it. So how are you going to move that energy to shrink the fat cell without blood supply to the fat cell.

That is like locking someone inside his house and expecting him to come out through a locked door.

Edited May 8, 2014 by robblok

[Jingthing]

Your opinion has been expressed. I would still like feedback from actual scientists.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Jingthing

[robblok]

Your opinion has been expressed. I would still like feedback from actual scientists.

http://www.xconomy.com/boston/2009/01/28/zafgens-big-idea-fight-fat-by-cutting-off-its-blood-supply/

His Ideas are far from mainstream, meaning just theoretical and not proven.

Also there seems to be some confusion here as what it says in that article is to make sure no new fat can be deposited in the fat cells. Then he assumes that the body will burn it off.

That is already different from shrinking.. (read the article its confusing).

This is a bit more logical keeping the door locked so no extra fat can get in fat cells, opposed to locking the fat in and hoping it shrinks.

Seems i was RIGHT poor JT.

So this probably wont help obese as this is to prevent addition of fat (if his theory is true and the body really does burn it off and not find other ways to store it)

Zafgen’s technique is different than those underlying all the other anti-obesity drugs in clinical trials now. Most such treatments are designed to work on receptors in the brain, making people feel full, or to block the absorption of fat. Zafgen’s drugs, on the other hand, are built on the belief that if you cut off the growth of blood vessels supplying the body’s fatty parts (aka adipose tissue), then they will shrink. Instead of storing excess calories as fat the body will find some other way to burn them off, like by fidgeting.

[saumwell]

Unfortunately, I tried just about everything with weight loss. the only thing that has worked for me and my family is good old fashioned exercise that is a minimum of 30min, 3 to 5 times a week and cutting out the junk food.

unless you get fat removed from your body with surgery, fat cells only expand and retract with the amount of fat in them. you must use up the fat inside those cells to shrink them, but they are always there.

good luck shrinking those fat cells!