Meeting of EC commissioners, Acting PM Niwatthamrong aborted as Suthep leads PDRC to meeting room

[lovetotravel]

Suthep continually claims to have the support of the people but continually refuses to go to the polls. How do you square that circle?

Polls are the least of Thailand's problems right now. Democracy is not just about voting. There's much, much more to it that just that.

Right, real democracy comes from the leader of a gang of thugs announcing that he represents the majority. Just ask Suthep, or Hitler, Mussolini, Franco....

Where did I mention anything about Suthep? He's a total nut job.

[kimamey]

Suthep continually claims to have the support of the people but continually refuses to go to the polls. How do you square that circle?

Polls are the least of Thailand's problems right now. Democracy is not just about voting. There's much, much more to it that just that.

Right, real democracy comes from the leader of a gang of thugs announcing that he represents the majority. Just ask Suthep, or Hitler, Mussolini, Franco....

Where did I mention anything about Suthep? He's a total nut job.

Suthep's an easy target. Much easier than worrying about the government seemingly being controlled from outside the country by someone who got no votes at all.

Suthep's actions early on were fine which is why he got a lot of support but he seems to have lost the plot a bit since then.

[bushwacker]

"The election cannot be held if protesters do not agree," Puchong added.

And there we have it folks .... the definition of Democracy for Thailand.

[lovetotravel]

I've never had any respect for Suthep, but kinda understood what he was trying to do and in a way, initially supported it (trying to kill the amnesty bill for Thaksin). But now...he has definitely lost the plot!!!! As have pretty much all the politicians here. Too greedy.

[Mr Yim]

Please lets have a show of hands on here. Those who believe the current political impasse is about a corrupt system please put your hand up....OKay...those with their hands up can leave now and we will contact you if we need you. The Thais know what it is about, the worlds media know what its about and even some farangs on here know what its about. Unfortunately many on here dont...no problem..keep posting

So anybody who doesn't agree with you isn't needed.

The Thais know what it is about

So you've asked them have you? Or are you so arrogant you think you know. I don't know but I know Thais on both sides and the anti government ones, including my wife are concerned about corruption. Maybe you'd like to tell her yourself that's she's got it all wrong and you know better. It doesn't mean that she agrees with Suthep or his methods but the initial reason was down to corruption and the government's on focussing on Thaksin despite saying they weren't. In pursuit of this goal they were prepared to offer Abhisit and Suthep amnesties from their charges relating to the deaths in 2010 which I'd be being generous if I said they were flimsy but that's the story they're trying to promote. They're also keeping the army from any investigation even though they fired the shots. That seems a lot like corruption to me. I don't know if any Thais think that as well but I wouldn't be surprised if they did.

Kimamey, he is not being arrogant, not too many farangs know what is really behind this. I was told a couple of months ago and posted a link to a link which gave a pretty strong indication last week. However, the moderators took it down. I suspect a few may know but we cannot put it down in print. The issues purported to be the cause are clearly very important, but the real reason behind this goes much deeper. My information on this is from a work colleague of my wife who travels from Mahasarakham to protest on a regular basis.

Regards

[Mr Yim]

Suthep continually claims to have the support of the people but continually refuses to go to the polls. How do you square that circle?

Polls are the least of Thailand's problems right now. Democracy is not just about voting. There's much, much more to it that just that.

Please enlighten me?

[Mr Yim]

Suthep continually claims to have the support of the people but continually refuses to go to the polls. How do you square that circle?

Like everybody else, Suthep wants elections.

Fix the electoral system first and then we can have FREE and FAIR elections with the winners forming the government (Pheu Thai if they win the elections)!!

Fix it so the people cannot elect the government they vote for. Maybe his plan is to have a single Constituency for the North, another for the North East and 500 Consituencies spread throughout the remainder of Thailand. Why on earth do you believe the word of a guy found guilty of corruption?

[Publicus]

Suthep continually claims to have the support of the people but continually refuses to go to the polls. How do you square that circle?

Polls are the least of Thailand's problems right now. Democracy is not just about voting. There's much, much more to it that just that.

And it is the "much, much more to it" Suthep, the PDRC and the ammart fear the most.

Democracy.

[lovetotravel]

Please enlighten me?

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/06/25/opinion/opinion_30076425.php

In my view, there are seven main pillars of the architecture of democracy, namely: elections, political tolerance, the rule of law, freedom of expression, accountability and transparency, decentralisation and civil society.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens participate equally—either directly or indirectly through elected representatives—in the proposal, development, and creation of laws. It encompasses social, religious, cultural, ethnic and racial equality, justice, liberty and fraternity.

http://www.democracyweb.org/majority/principles.php

Yet majority rule can not be the only expression of "supreme power" in a democracy. If so, as Tocqueville notes above, the majority would too easily tyrannize the minority. Thus, while it is clear that democracy must guarantee the expression of the popular will through majority rule, it is equally clear that it must guarantee that the majority will not abuse use its power to violate the basic and inalienable rights of the minority.

[BlueNoseCodger]

The whole idea is NOT to have elections yet. ONLY after the Election laws are changed.

Something the EC warned about and all opposing parties stipulated.

Elections can be held if the backward laws that allow a party -after being convicted of electoral fraud-

to change its name and just merrily join again are changed. As well as the constituents that have been

adjusted to fit the PTP have been changed such that they come at least slightly closer to what the

popular vote in numbers shows.

The DEMS for instance WON the 2007 elections but lost in seats:

They won with a slight popular majority which gave them only 165 seats

14,084,265 39.63 33

165

Against the PPP which LOST with a small minority which gave them 68 (!!!!) more seats, 233

14,071,799 39.60 34 233

This is what it's all about for all the people constantly shouting Democracy.

Hence, NO ELECTIONS until certain laws are changed.

Of course Taksin and his henchmen want an election first and THEN we'll talk reason.

False

PPP won:

26,293,456 (Constituency) 14,071,799 (Proportional)

Democrats won:

21,745,696 (Constituency) 14,084,265 (Proportional)

You lost that election convincingly.

PPP won nearly 5 milion more votes than the Democrats, and hence more seats.

Edited May 16, 2014 by BlueNoseCodger

[BlueNoseCodger]

Doing a quick estimate:

I think there are 74 army and police there, and less than 20 PDRC.

Edited May 16, 2014 by BlueNoseCodger

[BlueNoseCodger]

Suthep continually claims to have the support of the people but continually refuses to go to the polls. How do you square that circle?

Polls are the least of Thailand's problems right now. Democracy is not just about voting. There's much, much more to it that just that.

Without an election there is no democracy.

[Melyn]

Suthep continually claims to have the support of the people but continually refuses to go to the polls. How do you square that circle?

Polls are the least of Thailand's problems right now. Democracy is not just about voting. There's much, much more to it that just that.

Without an election there is no democracy.

It really isn't the be all and end all of democracy.

Following the rules that govern them, being fair to all citizens, acting without nepotism or cronyism and managing policies such as the rice scheme in a transparent manner are 99%

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[BlueNoseCodger]

Suthep continually claims to have the support of the people but continually refuses to go to the polls. How do you square that circle?

Polls are the least of Thailand's problems right now. Democracy is not just about voting. There's much, much more to it that just that.

Without an election there is no democracy.

It really isn't the be all and end all of democracy.

Following the rules that govern them, being fair to all citizens, acting without nepotism or cronyism and managing policies such as the rice scheme in a transparent manner are 99%

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Meanwhile, you block the vote, your cronies in the Senate are trying to appoint a PM, your NACC refuses to accept the stock count, the EC submits 'secret' legal theories as to how the election can be delayed.

So yeh we get it. You lost the election, you changed the seats to ensure you won in 2011, and lost again, now you want to change it again till you find a way to win.

So you redefine 'democracy' as whatever you want, because the people don't want you.

[lovetotravel]

Suthep continually claims to have the support of the people but continually refuses to go to the polls. How do you square that circle?

Polls are the least of Thailand's problems right now. Democracy is not just about voting. There's much, much more to it that just that.

Without an election there is no democracy.

An election doesn't guarantee democracy. Just ask the people in N. Korea, Russia, etc. Look at Egypt. Again, polls are the least of their problems right now. There are much bigger issues that need to be addressed.

[Mot Leei]

Suthep continually claims to have the support of the people but continually refuses to go to the polls. How do you square that circle?

See my previous post please. The Dems won the 2007 election by popular vote but had

68 less seats than the PPP. That's what this is all about.

You've rather lost me here I'm afraid. This was the first election held after the banning of TRT and changes to the election rules that many commentators say were designed to reduce the chances of a Thaksin party victory. The number of seats was reduced to 480, with 400 elected from constituencies and 80 based on party-list proportional votes in the eight areas. Despite what many saw as a major campaign by the junta to make things hard for the PPP, it won

26,293,456 constituency votes (compared with

21,745,696 for the Democrats) and 14,071,799 proportional votes (compared with 14,084,265 votes for the Democrats). In respect of the proportional votes both parties got 30 seats. Overall the PPP got 233 seats and the Democrats 165.

Where did I go wrong in thinking that PPP received more of the popular vote?

I agree that the powers that be would like another shot at changing the rules; they know they didn't do enough to 'fix' the system the first time around.

The 2011 constitutional amendments increased the number of seats to 500 and the party list seats to 125. However, this did not result in more seats for the Democrats, as the 2007 results suggest might have happened. In 2012 PT got

15,744,190 proportional votes, compared with

11,433,762 for the Democrats.

Memo to Abhisit ('cos I'm sure it will end up being him),: Better make sure that you make a better job of rigging it next time.

Really this is EXACTLY what the cries for reform are all about ... absolutely nothing else

Sent from my GT-N5100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[lovetotravel]

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2013/07/07/egypt-elections-do-not-make-a-democracy/

An election is a necessary but not a sufficient condition for democracy. That’s the takeaway from the continuing upheaval in Egypt.
.......
The Mursi government may have been elected, but there are other requirements for a democracy. A democratic government has to guarantee minority rights. It has to accept the opposition as legitimate. It has to be willing to abide by the rules. And the truest test of a democracy: The government has to give up power if it is defeated at the polls.

The Mursi government failed all those tests except the last one. That’s because it was only in power for a year and got removed by the military before it could stand for re-election. In that one year, however, Mursi asserted near-unlimited power over the country. He appointed Islamic radicals to key positions. He rammed through a new constitution that enshrined the principles of Islamic law. He arrested opponents and allowed attacks on religious minorities. He neglected the failing economy. He angered the military by calling for Egyptian intervention in Ethiopia and Syria.

[heybruce]

Suthep's an easy target. Much easier than worrying about the government seemingly being controlled from outside the country by someone who got no votes at all.

Suthep's actions early on were fine which is why he got a lot of support but he seems to have lost the plot a bit since then.

That's good, but by the same token:

Thaksin's an easy target. Much easier than worrying about street mobs running unchecked, preventing both elections and functioning government.

Suthep's actions were never "fine". He is an opportunist who thought he had a chance to topple a democratically elected government. He almost succeeded, but instead of his appointed "People's Counsels" nonsense he has created chaos, and he must maintain the chaos to avoid arrest. The Democrats are equally guilty, they are clearly happy to use Suthep to attain power without getting their hands dirty.

Democracy under Thaksin was deeply flawed and corrupt. Democracy before Thaksin, when it existed, was at least as flawed and corrupt. Democracy since Thaksin was removed has been deeply flawed, corrupt, and resting on a weaker foundation because of the unworkable constitution--written by the traditional elites at the direction of a military junta and forced on the nation in a referendum in which the choices were the military's constitution or military rule.

Thailand needs "reform" in the form of a new constitution, with a fully elected Parliament and Senate, transparency in government--especially government spending, relaxing of libel laws so the press can truly perform its function as the fourth estate, the military firmly under civilian control (and reformed to greatly reduce corruption and the number of flag officers) and many other things.

Thailand's people,those outside of Bangkok, will never allow this constitution to be written by an appointed counsel of traditional elites. The most likely way forward is for an election, followed by the elected government working with traditional institutions to write a new constitution. Entrenched interests don't like this because it will lead to a loss of power for them, but the alternatives--civil war and/or a military backed dictatorship, are worse.

To those tempted to reply with another unsubstantiated claim of vote buying--don't. No election anywhere has ever been perfect, unless you have evidence of fraud on a scale that affects election results, stop wasting time.

[craigt3365]

A few posts have been removed from view. Please stay on topic and do not accuse other members for things they have not said. That's considered a troll post and they will be removed immediately.

[kimamey]

Suthep's an easy target. Much easier than worrying about the government seemingly being controlled from outside the country by someone who got no votes at all.

Suthep's actions early on were fine which is why he got a lot of support but he seems to have lost the plot a bit since then.

That's good, but by the same token:

Thaksin's an easy target. Much easier than worrying about street mobs running unchecked, preventing both elections and functioning government.

Suthep's actions were never "fine". He is an opportunist who thought he had a chance to topple a democratically elected government. He almost succeeded, but instead of his appointed "People's Counsels" nonsense he has created chaos, and he must maintain the chaos to avoid arrest. The Democrats are equally guilty, they are clearly happy to use Suthep to attain power without getting their hands dirty.

Democracy under Thaksin was deeply flawed and corrupt. Democracy before Thaksin, when it existed, was at least as flawed and corrupt. Democracy since Thaksin was removed has been deeply flawed, corrupt, and resting on a weaker foundation because of the unworkable constitution--written by the traditional elites at the direction of a military junta and forced on the nation in a referendum in which the choices were the military's constitution or military rule.

Thailand needs "reform" in the form of a new constitution, with a fully elected Parliament and Senate, transparency in government--especially government spending, relaxing of libel laws so the press can truly perform its function as the fourth estate, the military firmly under civilian control (and reformed to greatly reduce corruption and the number of flag officers) and many other things.

Thailand's people,those outside of Bangkok, will never allow this constitution to be written by an appointed counsel of traditional elites. The most likely way forward is for an election, followed by the elected government working with traditional institutions to write a new constitution. Entrenched interests don't like this because it will lead to a loss of power for them, but the alternatives--civil war and/or a military backed dictatorship, are worse.

To those tempted to reply with another unsubstantiated claim of vote buying--don't. No election anywhere has ever been perfect, unless you have evidence of fraud on a scale that affects election results, stop wasting time.

It's true that there is a great focus on Thaksin not least because of the power he he has over his various parties. Suthep never even led the Democrats so if he's power hungry he's making a bad job of it. He certainly saw an opportunity when he saw divisions between the PTP and the redshirts which also came about through an obsession with Thaksin. If that hadn't happened then things may well have turned out better assuming the real figures behind the rice scheme ever saw the light of day.

I don't know what Suthep's thoughts were when this started but his stated aims about corruption within the government and elsewhere were I think what made a lot of people back him to start with and back then the protests were peaceful and legal. After that the extremists got involved as they did in 2010 and things got violent.

I agree pretty much with your views on reform but I'm less certain that an election will bring these about. If as we are told the PTP win with a majority do you really think that Thaksin won't try to use that to put his family in places so he can control them. As we saw with Yingluck ability for the job won't be needed as they'll just need to take orders and until he can get his amnesty he will stay where he's outside the law. He clearly can't trust many of the PTP members which I assume is why none of them were chosen as PM. It looks like a classic case of fear of losing power and whatever Suthep has done he's never going to be as power hungry or self centred or at least not as successful at it.

Suthep definitely needs to step back to allow negotiation and I think Abhisit can do that. There seemed like a chance of that when Yingluck said his ideas should be considered. She's no politician let alone PM but she did seem to show some judgement there. Unfortunately something changed and Abhisit was sidelined. I can only guess who was behind that. I think Abhisit worries the PTP or Thaksin as he seems to be fairly clean and has intelligence and debating skills. He's held back by many in his party and of course by one who is now not in his party.

As for vote buying there have been so many first hand accounts of it I'm sure it goes on but I've no idea who does the most or what effect it has. Possibly not much as both sides cancel each other out. If one side decides to stop they may think that would effect their chances.

[heybruce]

Suthep's an easy target. Much easier than worrying about the government seemingly being controlled from outside the country by someone who got no votes at all.

Suthep's actions early on were fine which is why he got a lot of support but he seems to have lost the plot a bit since then.

That's good, but by the same token:

Thaksin's an easy target. Much easier than worrying about street mobs running unchecked, preventing both elections and functioning government.

Suthep's actions were never "fine". He is an opportunist who thought he had a chance to topple a democratically elected government. He almost succeeded, but instead of his appointed "People's Counsels" nonsense he has created chaos, and he must maintain the chaos to avoid arrest. The Democrats are equally guilty, they are clearly happy to use Suthep to attain power without getting their hands dirty.

Democracy under Thaksin was deeply flawed and corrupt. Democracy before Thaksin, when it existed, was at least as flawed and corrupt. Democracy since Thaksin was removed has been deeply flawed, corrupt, and resting on a weaker foundation because of the unworkable constitution--written by the traditional elites at the direction of a military junta and forced on the nation in a referendum in which the choices were the military's constitution or military rule.

Thailand needs "reform" in the form of a new constitution, with a fully elected Parliament and Senate, transparency in government--especially government spending, relaxing of libel laws so the press can truly perform its function as the fourth estate, the military firmly under civilian control (and reformed to greatly reduce corruption and the number of flag officers) and many other things.

Thailand's people,those outside of Bangkok, will never allow this constitution to be written by an appointed counsel of traditional elites. The most likely way forward is for an election, followed by the elected government working with traditional institutions to write a new constitution. Entrenched interests don't like this because it will lead to a loss of power for them, but the alternatives--civil war and/or a military backed dictatorship, are worse.

To those tempted to reply with another unsubstantiated claim of vote buying--don't. No election anywhere has ever been perfect, unless you have evidence of fraud on a scale that affects election results, stop wasting time.

It's true that there is a great focus on Thaksin not least because of the power he he has over his various parties. Suthep never even led the Democrats so if he's power hungry he's making a bad job of it. He certainly saw an opportunity when he saw divisions between the PTP and the redshirts which also came about through an obsession with Thaksin. If that hadn't happened then things may well have turned out better assuming the real figures behind the rice scheme ever saw the light of day.

I don't know what Suthep's thoughts were when this started but his stated aims about corruption within the government and elsewhere were I think what made a lot of people back him to start with and back then the protests were peaceful and legal. After that the extremists got involved as they did in 2010 and things got violent.

I agree pretty much with your views on reform but I'm less certain that an election will bring these about. If as we are told the PTP win with a majority do you really think that Thaksin won't try to use that to put his family in places so he can control them. As we saw with Yingluck ability for the job won't be needed as they'll just need to take orders and until he can get his amnesty he will stay where he's outside the law. He clearly can't trust many of the PTP members which I assume is why none of them were chosen as PM. It looks like a classic case of fear of losing power and whatever Suthep has done he's never going to be as power hungry or self centred or at least not as successful at it.

Suthep definitely needs to step back to allow negotiation and I think Abhisit can do that. There seemed like a chance of that when Yingluck said his ideas should be considered. She's no politician let alone PM but she did seem to show some judgement there. Unfortunately something changed and Abhisit was sidelined. I can only guess who was behind that. I think Abhisit worries the PTP or Thaksin as he seems to be fairly clean and has intelligence and debating skills. He's held back by many in his party and of course by one who is now not in his party.

As for vote buying there have been so many first hand accounts of it I'm sure it goes on but I've no idea who does the most or what effect it has. Possibly not much as both sides cancel each other out. If one side decides to stop they may think that would effect their chances.

An intelligent reply! Those are rare.

An election will not solve all problems, far from it. Thailand's young, flawed democracy has a long way to go before it becomes a mature, less flawed democracy. It will take time and many painful mistakes will be made on the way. However the alternative, whether it is a military backed autocracy under a "People's Counsel" or just a military government, will be worse.

I quote the Economist frequently because I consider its articles to be well researched and well thought out. The editors are no fan of Thaksin (neither am I) but even less fond of military coups. In an article written days after the 2006 coup, "Thailand's Dangerous Coup" http://www.economist.com/node/7942244 , they wrote:

"The generals' error is to assume that a coup will solve anything. Whenever an election is held, Mr Thaksin's rural, populist Thai Rak Thai party will surely do well, whether or not he is allowed back into the country to lead it. And the principle of changing governments by street protest and military putsch has been re-established, undoing all the progress of the past decade, which had seen Thailand slowly emerge from the shadow of the barracks and the royal palace. More instability, not less, is the likely outcome. Nor is turmoil likely to help clean up political life. Corruption flourished under a succession of military-favoured prime ministers and was bad, too, under the opposition Democrats in the late 1990s."

Events proved them right, and an updated version of this paragraph would still be right. No amount of reform will change the fact that the majority of Thais do not want the Democrats or the military in charge. The least bad option is to have an election and start on the long, difficult road to a stable democracy.

[city]

Please lets have a show of hands on here. Those who believe the current political impasse is about a corrupt system please put your hand up....OKay...those with their hands up can leave now and we will contact you if we need you. The Thais know what it is about, the worlds media know what its about and even some farangs on here know what its about. Unfortunately many on here dont...no problem..keep posting

So anybody who doesn't agree with you isn't needed.

The Thais know what it is about

So you've asked them have you? Or are you so arrogant you think you know. I don't know but I know Thais on both sides and the anti government ones, including my wife are concerned about corruption. Maybe you'd like to tell her yourself that's she's got it all wrong and you know better. It doesn't mean that she agrees with Suthep or his methods but the initial reason was down to corruption and the government's on focussing on Thaksin despite saying they weren't. In pursuit of this goal they were prepared to offer Abhisit and Suthep amnesties from their charges relating to the deaths in 2010 which I'd be being generous if I said they were flimsy but that's the story they're trying to promote. They're also keeping the army from any investigation even though they fired the shots. That seems a lot like corruption to me. I don't know if any Thais think that as well but I wouldn't be surprised if they did.

Its about keeping power for the next 40-50 years regardless of which government is elected. The PTP, on one side can win every election but never have the real power. That may be hard for you to fathom out. Pesky rules of the land always stop me explaining to those who most need to be educated