Land Office

[niggle]

Given all that is going on right now, has anyone attempted to register land etc and if so, what experiences can they share with the forum. there seems to be so many posts on maybes but little about what is happening in reality.

[Dragonman]

Given all that is going on right now, has anyone attempted to register land etc and if so, what experiences can they share with the forum. there seems to be so many posts on maybes but little about what is happening in reality.

hi there...

I just finished to buy a house in my wife's name and lease it for 30 years in the land office.

Hooo... I tell you.. it was hard for 3 days we did it..first day to buy and TRY TO LEASE IT...then they say its not ok..then they change the contract then I told then I not agree..and they try to make things slowly that I will give them money under the table.NO WAY! they work in govrement office and its the thai law they should follow to. so I played them game and it cost me on my time..never mind just the feeling that they were'nt happy to do it and no have choice but to do it. (you should have see the head/manager of the land office when he sign.. hehehe..FXXX him..

Any way the point that they are not happy to do it but here I am after 3 days with what I wanted from the first place.my contract and register in the land office for 30 years.

Now....I need to deal with the Amphur office to make the "TABIAN BAN SI LUANG" (house book yellow color).

So I went to the Amphur office today to do it and surprise..they were'nt smiled when they hear what I am asking for..hehe funny when I went with my wife to make her "TABIAN BAN SI FA" (house book blue color) they smiled to me a lot the ATM come to buy the thais land and more land and more land hehe ?!

Anyway I sit with the guy incharge on this thing and he tells me can't do it..so I told him in thai "I dont care what color the house book will be green,black or blue but I know he have to give me house book..EVERY falang that lease have the right to get yellow book!"

so he check in the thai law book (its not tourist place..maybe really they didnt know but I doubt on it..) and tells me surprise surprise.. FALANG DAI!!!!!! BUT!!! its have steps.. ( if you ask me he try to tell me that if I want it the easy way I should give money.. really?! he think so..? ) anyway he told me come tomorrow as it was already 4pm and asked my wife how I know it...

ITS REALLY FUNNY THEY REALLY REALLY THINK THAT WE THE "FALANG" ARE SO STUPID!! CAN YOU BELIEVE IT???

To be continued..

It will be interesting as to how this proceeds, as strictly speaking just leasing the land and house does not give automatic entitlement to a "yellow book". Registering the structure as yours does!

But in the Land Offices of Thailand anything's possible, but not always legal.

[eddy-ham]

Hi,

Has anybody any recent experience within the last 2 weeks regarding purchase of a house with a Thai company.Is the position reverting to normal? Or as I expect the under the table payments have got bigger.

Anything being sold?

ed

[SunbeltAsia]

Hi,

Has anybody any recent experience within the last 2 weeks regarding purchase of a house with a Thai company.Is the position reverting to normal? Or as I expect the under the table payments have got bigger.

Anything being sold?

ed

Just depends on the region and it ebbs and flows like the ocean.

For instance at one land dept, a week ago, it was not a problem for a company to register land with foreign investors unless the company was in the real estate business. They were not looking into the Thai shareholders even when proof was provided to them on companies with no objective to be in the real estate business

However at this same land dept office, starting this past Wednesday, a recent meeting was held to determine what to do about the Minister's new request. They're not looking for anything under the table. They've decided for the entire area to not allow ANY land/property transfers to companies with Foreign investors until they get better guidelines from the ministry. They don't know when that will be, one week, one month or one year. Only thing allowable now is condos in the name of the Foreigner. They will still allow sales from Foreign companies that already own property - but not to Companies with Foreign investors. The real Thai limited companies with Thai shareholders (not nominees) are not suppose to be affected by this regulation, however they are.

However, the Phuket Land Office has officially stated, if there is a Thai director. they don't look any further even if it is a co-director with a Foreigner.

Another land office is allowing it with couple questions into what the company is doing.

Hua Hin and Pattaya forget about it. No matter what proof you have. They are looking for better guidelines before they do anything. They are not looking for under the table money.

As it is with the Thai embassies/ consulates with visas, each land dept location has their own guidelines and interpretation of the regulation. It is simply practical guidance for the land office. Some however say, "We need better guidelines to know what we should do."

You would think this would bring the land departments to a standstill but it is not. Business is continuing. It is important to be safe and get good advice how to be proper and in the spirit of the law, as well be protected if you are a foreigner. If you can justify a company, nothing wrong with that method. The same as a 30 year lease, if you can show it to be right, without using a nominee. Anything that you do with land,must stand up under scrutiny. Show it to be reasonable and have proof is the key.

[dsfbrit]

Hi,

Has anybody any recent experience within the last 2 weeks regarding purchase of a house with a Thai company.Is the position reverting to normal? Or as I expect the under the table payments have got bigger.

Anything being sold?

ed

Just depends on the region and it ebbs and flows like the ocean.

For instance at one land dept, a week ago, it was not a problem for a company to register land with foreign investors unless the company was in the real estate business. They were not looking into the Thai shareholders even when proof was provided to them on companies with no objective to be in the real estate business

However at this same land dept office, starting this past Wednesday, a recent meeting was held to determine what to do about the Minister's new request. They're not looking for anything under the table. They've decided for the entire area to not allow ANY land/property transfers to companies with Foreign investors until they get better guidelines from the ministry. They don't know when that will be, one week, one month or one year. Only thing allowable now is condos in the name of the Foreigner. They will still allow sales from Foreign companies that already own property - but not to Companies with Foreign investors. The real Thai limited companies with Thai shareholders (not nominees) are not suppose to be affected by this regulation, however they are.

However, the Phuket Land Office has officially stated, if there is a Thai director. they don't look any further even if it is a co-director with a Foreigner.

Another land office is allowing it with couple questions into what the company is doing.

Hua Hin and Pattaya forget about it. No matter what proof you have. They are looking for better guidelines before they do anything. They are not looking for under the table money.

As it is with the Thai embassies/ consulates with visas, each land dept location has their own guidelines and interpretation of the regulation. It is simply practical guidance for the land office. Some however say, "We need better guidelines to know what we should do."

You would think this would bring the land departments to a standstill but it is not. Business is continuing. It is important to be safe and get good advice how to be proper and in the spirit of the law, as well be protected if you are a foreigner. If you can justify a company, nothing wrong with that method. The same as a 30 year lease, if you can show it to be right, without using a nominee. Anything that you do with land,must stand up under scrutiny. Show it to be reasonable and have proof is the key.

I had to meet with my lawyer this week about a completely different matter, but I asked him in passing what was the situation now with company land registration. He said there were no problems at the (Pattaya) Land Office as they were now putting the company as 100 percent Thai owned and changing the company to show the Farang status after the land was registered. Although I did not take all that much notice of what he was saying - as I say I was there for another unrelated matter - I did hear the other lawyer talking to someone on the phone and he said '... I have no problems - got 4 through today no worries' So although there may be problems down the road - it at least looks

like the land can be registered.

[SunbeltAsia]

I had to meet with my lawyer this week about a completely different matter, but I asked him in passing what was the situation now with company land registration. He said there were no problems at the (Pattaya) Land Office as they were now putting the company as 100 percent Thai owned and changing the company to show the Farang status after the land was registered. Although I did not take all that much notice of what he was saying - as I say I was there for another unrelated matter - I did hear the other lawyer talking to someone on the phone and he said '... I have no problems - got 4 through today no worries' So although there may be problems down the road - it at least looks

like the land can be registered.

Only with the transfer of land between two parties, with a Thai company with foreign investors, can the land dept deny the registration of the land.

When a investor buys the shares from a existing company and are the director, they then can own the land. The transfer of shares and change of directorship is not involved with the land office. The Ministry of Commerce is not under this regulation.

The 100% Thai companies are not under this regulation at the land Dept. as well to register land, nothing is stopping Thai shareholders to sell shares to foreigners.

We have not been involved in any transaction like this, but are aware of it. If the company is legitimate and had merit, the transfer could be justified, then any investigation should be ok.

If they do this, the foreigner better know what the heck they are doing and have protections in place for themselves and for the Thai shareholders( who should not be nominees)

[Dragonman]

I had to meet with my lawyer this week about a completely different matter, but I asked him in passing what was the situation now with company land registration. He said there were no problems at the (Pattaya) Land Office as they were now putting the company as 100 percent Thai owned and changing the company to show the Farang status after the land was registered. Although I did not take all that much notice of what he was saying - as I say I was there for another unrelated matter - I did hear the other lawyer talking to someone on the phone and he said '... I have no problems - got 4 through today no worries' So although there may be problems down the road - it at least looks

like the land can be registered.

Only with the transfer of land between two parties, with a Thai company with foreign investors, can the land dept deny the registration of the land.

When a investor buys the shares from a existing company and are the director, they then can own the land. The transfer of shares and change of directorship is not involved with the land office. The Ministry of Commerce is not under this regulation.

The 100% Thai companies are not under this regulation at the land Dept. as well to register land, nothing is stopping Thai shareholders to sell shares to foreigners.

We have not been involved in any transaction like this, but are aware of it. If the company is legitimate and had merit, the transfer could be justified, then any investigation should be ok.

If they do this, the foreigner better know what the heck they are doing and have protections in place for themselves and for the Thai shareholders( who should not be nominees)

Ah well, 4 more potential suicides in Pattaya.

As I have said on another thread, and in reference to Sunbelt's final paragraph. Anyone who does this had better have a good lawyer, as the opportunities for fraud and deception are obvious. Don't do it. or you deserve everything you get!

[Nadia 2]

I had to meet with my lawyer this week about a completely different matter, but I asked him in passing what was the situation now with company land registration. He said there were no problems at the (Pattaya) Land Office as they were now putting the company as 100 percent Thai owned and changing the company to show the Farang status after the land was registered. Although I did not take all that much notice of what he was saying - as I say I was there for another unrelated matter - I did hear the other lawyer talking to someone on the phone and he said '... I have no problems - got 4 through today no worries' So although there may be problems down the road - it at least looks

like the land can be registered.

Sure, to circumvent the new guidelines it is possible to register land in a 100% Thai owned company and yes it is the next day possible to change 49% of the shares to the foreigner. But who in his right minds would get involved in this? What do people think? That the problem is registering the land and that the following 'ownership' is legal? Not for 99% of these companies. It's illegal. Nothing will stop the Land Department from investigating these companies in a later stage. You can easily be forced to dispose of the land and the consequences could be worse if you have used nominees.

This 'lawyer' has found a way to get the foreigners in an illegal position and where he’s liable for severe penalties. No way this will lead to a secure ownership. If you have a legitimate majority Thai owned company you do not have to change it to 100% Thai shareholders. If you have to change the it to 100% Thai owned you know it is illegal.

[JimmyGreaves]

Is it true that the land department will not allow the sale of a piece of land from a 49% farang company to a thai national or a thai 100% company?

Not talking about share transfer but selling back to the company.

Edited June 17, 2006 by jflundy

[eddy-ham]

Hi,

Many thanks for the info from you all.

At present I am in aposition where I can walk away from a property in Pattaya and just lose a small deposit ,I would like to buy a property but the present climate there seems to be unstable.

I am not a developer but do not want to invest 100K and next week find the market has fallen 20%

or the Land Dept are looking into the way my house has been purchased/registered.

I do not have a Thai wife (2 European ones sorted that out) so another named party is out.

Any of you experinced lads have any suggestions of how a house can be owned here with some security besides''don't buy''.

PS ;I was offered the Buy Now Transfer later deal 1 month ago, from a European view of Bussiness Law it seemed OK.

[SunbeltAsia]

Is it true that the land department will not allow the sale of a piece of land from a 49% farang company to a thai national or a thai 100% company?

Not talking about share transfer but selling back to the company.

Some will allow it, as I mention in a post in this thread.

They will still allow sales from Foreign companies that already own property - but not to Companies with Foreign investors.

But others won't. Welcome to the new World.

If you have a legitimate majority Thai owned company you do not have to change it to 100% Thai shareholders. If you have to change the it to 100% Thai owned you know it is illegal.

With some Land Dept even if it is a true company, they don't care and will not allow registration at the Land Dept. In this case, I could see how this may work but boy do I smell some people going to be toast. Too easy just to be screwed in more ways than one. Then who do you complain to? As I said before, if you play with a bonfire , you better have water next to you and not a can of gasoline and dynamite. It's amateur hour.

I'll repeat a story even though it was third hand. One of our lawyers was at the Land Office several weeks ago. The case was a Thai selling to a Thai, no problem. But as our lawyer was waiting for it to be processed, she is sitting next to a older Thai woman who travel many hours from the South. She was selling land that she owned to a Thai company with foreign investors. They would not allow it. The older Woman ask to see the officer, crying she asked" How much do you need as I need to sell this land. "He tells her he doesn't want her money but would tell her want to do. He says why should I waste my time checking out the Thai investors in the Thai company. I know they are not the true shareholders. For what, to waste my time and get the Thais in trouble"

He scoffed and said " The farang is buying the land, and the Thais get in trouble. Just change the shares into Thai shares and the director to be Thai. I allow you to register the land and then you change it back to the Farang, the next day to what it is now"

Now this was advice from a Land Officer!

[SunbeltAsia]

Any of you experinced lads have any suggestions of how a house can be owned here with some security besides''don't buy''.

Brief Version...

You can do a 30 year lease on the property and put the house in your name. With the seller, tell them instead of buying, you want to lease the land for 30 years. If they won't do that, get a Thai bank to buy the land and do a 30 year lease with the bank. This is all registered at the land dept.

[eddy-ham]

Hi,

Thanks, are there problems if you wish to sell the property that is held on a lease?

You can do a 30 year lease on the property and put the house in your name. With the seller, tell them instead of buying, you want to lease the land for 30 years. If they won't do that, get a Thai bank to buy the land and do a 30 year lease with the bank. This is all registered at the land dept.

[eddy-ham]

Sorry mistake ,can anybody reply to below

Thanks, are there problems if you wish to sell the property that is held on a lease?

[SunbeltAsia]

Sorry mistake ,can anybody reply to below

Thanks, are there problems if you wish to sell the property that is held on a lease?

Remember, you don't own any interest in the land , you are only the tenant.

If you as the tenant would like to sell your rights to the land. You are able to assign those rights to the land to a third party (if the terms of the lease permit allow such assignment)

One caveat, your interest in the land is less desirable than if you owned the land outright. It is similar to a option where it is time wasting asset. After 20 years with only 10 years left on the lease, your rights to the lease are in most cases worth much less than they were 20 years before. (even with additional 30 year options because under the Civil Commercial Code, nothing is guaranteed that it will be renewed) With ownership, in most cases the land has increased in value.

But as you can't own in your name, then you need to look at what you can do, which is a long term lease or if you qualify, be a minority shareholder in a Thai Limited Company, with protection in place to protect your interest.

[johnnyk]

Exactly.

Look at London, UK real estate listings.

Many west end houses are on LH.

Note that the shorter the term left on the lease, the lower the price.

[dsfbrit]

Hi,

Many thanks for the info from you all.

At present I am in aposition where I can walk away from a property in Pattaya and just lose a small deposit ,I would like to buy a property but the present climate there seems to be unstable.

I am not a developer but do not want to invest 100K and next week find the market has fallen 20%

or the Land Dept are looking into the way my house has been purchased/registered.

I do not have a Thai wife (2 European ones sorted that out) so another named party is out.

Any of you experinced lads have any suggestions of how a house can be owned here with some security besides''don't buy''.

PS ;I was offered the Buy Now Transfer later deal 1 month ago, from a European view of Bussiness Law it seemed OK.

In my previous reply on this subject, I just mentioned about some telephone conversations I overheard whilst in my lawyers office and some off the cuff feedback from the Lawyer. I was actually in the office at them time getting a 'pre-nup' signed hence my attention was not really on the ownership of land problem.

However, this subject is dear to my heart as I ('my' company) bought a small piece of land a couple of years ago and had a house built on it. I could now do some clever things I am sure, such as put the land in my wife's name and lease etc... but lets face it that can cause problems down the road, I dont know exactly what problems, but you only have to look at Paul McCartney's messy divorce to see just how inventive a disgruntled soon to be x-wife can become.

So for now I will leave things as they are and I expect - as many things seem to do in Thailand - wait for the law enforcement to go away.

So as you can see I am not someone who is particularly phased by this sort of thing and anyway most of my major assets are out of this country. However despite my laid back approach, if I had my chance again, I would Never buy any property in this country via the company route - be it a house on land or a condo that is not part of the 'buy in your own name' 49 percent ownership. So my advice - unless you can switch your deposit to something withiot a company -walk away now and put it down to experiencs.

Good luck in whatever you decide.

[eddy-ham]

Hi,

Many thanks to you all for the comments.I have had lots of involvment with the leasehold legal side

of property and usually you can renegotiate the lease.

One other question,

It has been ugested that the land is leased from a bank.

A)How could this be done, ie monies, sale

Same as above but from the developer...not really a option with the current state.

[SunbeltAsia]

Hi,

Many thanks to you all for the comments.I have had lots of involvment with the leasehold legal side

of property and usually you can renegotiate the lease.

One other question,

It has been ugested that the land is leased from a bank.

A)How could this be done, ie monies, sale

Same as above but from the developer...not really a option with the current state.

If you see a property you like, the developer won't lease it on 30 years, will only sell it. You then give the money to a girl you met at a bar that night to buy the land for you. You then do a 30 year lease. She was a nominee and this is not legal under Thai law. She goes to court and you may be tossed off the land.

If you however went to a bank, state you like to lease a property. You then put the total sales price in a acct with the bank as a deposit. They buy it ( using their money) and lease it to you with the funds you have in the bank acct ( 30 year lease paid in advance)They have no risk and now a asset of land on the books of the bank. They were not a nominee as it was a Thai bank. win win for both parties and one day the bank will no longer have the restriction of 30 year lease. Easy money! Is this a great Country, or what? At least you will get a New Years gift every year and you'll find it easier to cut in line at the bank. ''

If the developer says" Give me some of that action, I want to be the bank. They then do a 30 year lease. It is not a nominee transfer as you never bought the land, only leased it. Odds are very high, they will take the lease instead of the sale. Same money but in 30 years they can resell it. You hopefully have first right of refusal if they sell it.

[lkm]

Any of you experinced lads have any suggestions of how a house can be owned here with some security besides''don't buy''.

Brief Version...

You can do a 30 year lease on the property and put the house in your name. With the seller, tell them instead of buying, you want to lease the land for 30 years. If they won't do that, get a Thai bank to buy the land and do a 30 year lease with the bank. This is all registered at the land dept.

How can I get a mortgage from the bank if using a 100% thai's company(not my company)???

I was buying a house in Pattaya and it cost 15million baht. In my mine I was gonig to buy it, to own it. Not just lease it for just 30 yrs or even another 30 yrs. Lease something and own something is totaly different!!!

[eddy-ham]

Hi,

Many thanks, the lease idea seems OK but since the head lease is held with the bank what happens with the land after 30yrs.

Can the lease contract be written so that the existing leasee (house owner) is offered the house

for a further 30 years at a nominal rent?

The idea of spending 1m Baht at a club in Pattaya does have an appeal if only for a fleating second.

[Rinrada]

Wife just called and told me that we have been given our new address in Mae-On,San Kam Peng......No 50.

She was hoping for 55 or 99 but seems it wont register on Land Offices computer...

Met up with the Govs surveyor about a year ago when he was pegging us out and he was proudly telling us that they were now using Satelite positioning Technowledgy to identify and register our land.

I congratulated him and asked him to stick his wee pins another 50 meters further out........he laughed...but.... ...

Nice people ...just be polite....Roll on our first BBQ...

[Dragonman]

Hi,

Many thanks, the lease idea seems OK but since the head lease is held with the bank what happens with the land after 30yrs.

Can the lease contract be written so that the existing leasee (house owner) is offered the house

for a further 30 years at a nominal rent?

The idea of spending 1m Baht at a club in Pattaya does have an appeal if only for a fleating second.

After 30 years the land becomes theirs, all theirs. Your idea of the 30 year extension for nominal rent is purely an "option", and would not appeal to the bank I am sure. What would be in it for them?