Rice payments tomorrow

[wolf5370]

There are 2 ways that farmers real incomes can be increased - reduce costs - increase productivity.

Vietnam has increasingly become more competitive - now other countries travel there to see how to grow rice

"The reason for SRIs growing popularity in Haiti is clear: Many farmers practicing this method have boosted their rice yields by 50 percent to 100 percent. They include two farmers associations supported by Oxfam America: Movement to Help the Women of Liancourt-Payen commune of Verrettes, and the Irrigators Association of Liancourt. The womens farming collective boosted its yield to seven tons per hectare, up from less than five tons the previous year, according to Marie Melisena Robert, president and founder of the 200-member group who was among those who traveled to Vietnam. The Irrigators Association, an association of 450 farmers, saw yields reach seven tons, up from less than four tons per hectare, says Hollange Antoine, the groups president."

http://www.oxfamamerica.org/explore/stories/lessons-learned-growing-rice-in-haiti-and-vietnam/

So why is this not promoted more in Thailand?

It uses less fertiliser

Less herbicides

Dose not rely on "special seeds"

can use tradition equipment

uses less water

Maybe because certain interest groups can see that they would lose money.

edit to include reference

I am sure this is a better methodology, however, not sure how relevant this is here wrt the problems faced.

20 years ago or so there was a single rice harvest every year, with a second only in certain wet areas - now many farmers get 3 or even 4. That is a 3 or 4 fold in yield. Also back then blight was more common as little chemical was used and little industrialisation (buffalo instead of tractors). While the process you mention is better - and there have been suggestions from a certain knowledgeable and esteemed person wrt crop rotation and better water usage - it does not compare to the yield differences now as to back then. So it looks as if the problem isn't yields or production per se, but that costs are still outstripping margins - there is also a real problem of those margins being made as wide as possible at the middle man (agent/buyer) and miller stages and narrow as possible at the coalface (the farms) - with price fixing and intimidation against co-ops etc, this makes production increases less efficient to the farmer as costs are higher, but margin ratios are too low. Add to this the need to add more chemicals to the paddy to allow for the overuse and costs go up again.

With laws that protect and govern the "production line" of rice etc from grower to retail buyer/exporter, we will see the need fro such schemes to drop off drastically.

Also, long ago, government land was given to families to farm (NS1/2) - overtime much of this land has been pushed up to NS3 and chanote where it can be used as collateral for loans and sold freehold. Thanks to disastrous village loan schemes that lead a lot of farmers to lose their land (for which they then had to pay rent to live on), costs are higher for many. It is time perhaps, for the government to once again compulsory purchase aggro land owned by bank through defaults and peppercorn rent them back out to farmers (still gov land, so can't be sold or used as collateral) - this would help more than watching millers get wealthier while farmers get poorer.

[Robby nz]

BP says the money will be paid in one month and not tomorrow. Time will tell but the Bangkok elite sure doesn't want to pay off the farmers. It will be paid by the Ministry of FInance that needs 30 days to get the funds and only Buddha knows how much will be stolen away before the farmers get paid. Same same - new government same money politics.

If you want to post on these topics you should really first try to read and understand.

The BACC has said it has 55 billion on hand to start paying out tomorrow.

It obviously cant all be paid out in one day as it has to get to the branches where the money is owed to the farmers.

For instance: the Kalasin branch manager has said that 800 farmers are owed 55 million by his branch.

The General has said he wants the money paid out within 15 to 20 days.

I would expect he will have hard words or something worse for anyone who attempts to prevent that.

[wolf5370]

I always thought part of the scheme was for the fertilizer merchants to rack up bigger profits by increasing their prices once the rice scheme was in place. As stated in the OP these prices need to be lowered which will be of real benefit to the farmers plus create a scheme to teach the farmers different methods of growing rice such as organically. Not sure if you can achieve the same yields by going organic but the reduction in costs & health benefits would surely make up for it in spades.

What you are correctly stating is the higher price of fertiliser, why to rack up more profit. This is one of the reasons why an other kind of help to the farmers would be better. But of course PTP did not want this.

It would have been much better to give people help based on the amount of rice land they had with an upper limit. This way its an easy process and you help the poorest farmers while excluding the richer ones and of course the people who sell fertilizer and such.

But there is not much room for corruption in a scheme like that so PTP does not like it.

(actually there are 2 options either they are stupid and did not realize the downsides that I mentions or they did and it was intended.)

I think at this point, the best things for farmers would be to pay a subsidy for leaving paddy fallow for a year or two - giving time for the land to recover naturally without call for nitrogen additives and reduce the overstocks/over production of rice. At the same time put in tighter controls and oversight on the whole supply line wrt price fixing and squeezing at the bottom end - and legislation to protect and encourage co-op schemes for farmers. Lets get some of that real profit down to the farmers (fair trade style) rather than it all being soaked up by the middle.

[wolf5370]

aprox 100k per farmer

My wife..150K owed.

My wife 800k owed, this will mean we can pay of the debt incurred planting and harvesting. Planting this year ? No way !

Could you cross plant beans etc - potatoes would be good as there is such a good price for them here (although I fear normal paddy is too wet for them). Will do the land good to lay fallow for a year of course - but that means living a year without income - could be just as hard this Christmas!

[wolf5370]

Anyone that cannot see what is going on here is an idiot.

The NACC always had the money.

The farmers are not stupid. They are happy to receive the money now, no doubt ...but they know why they didnt receive it earlier.

you know what ? I am sick of people coming on here and defending this crowd of corrupt - lying - deceitful - power abusers that called themselves a government, they are gone and good riddance

They tried every way they could to get banks - foreign investors - trying to sell bonds at drastically reduced rates - they just about exhausted every avenue both legally open to them and not, they tried to push through an off budget loan of 2.2 trillion baht - which I at the time predicted exactly what it was to be used for - to cover the money they and Thaksin had stolen from the Thai people - now back to why they could never raise the funds - nobody trusted them - yes the sitting government of a country could not be trusted because of all the lies and deceit that had gone on the months before - this will all be uncovered soon enough and those responsible will be dealt with

now get over it and move on

Add to that that they could not legally borrow the money in the country's name anyway, as they were in caretaker mode. A risky thing therefore for a bank to take on - no wonder they said no (or their own work forces forced them to say no, or change yes to no!).

[Piichai]

How stupidly cleaver of the General to make a payment to the farmers that should ensure him some support from the one place that he needs most, the hart of the red country. Chuck them a few crumbs to day and screw it back out of them tomorrow.

Shameful.

[wolf5370]

Absolutely no excuse for not paying the farmers....

Apart from the blatant effort from the opposition to ensure that they could not be paid.

Not so - a blatant effort by the opposition to stop them borrowing more tom pay for it - rather than using the money they already had borrowed, earned and held for that reason - and a blatant effort to sop them breaking the constitution by borrowing in the country's name with no legal mandate to do so (i.e. caretaker mode).

[wolf5370]

She is kicked out martial law in place.now they pay now after the general steps in.why so long to pay the farmers

Because the junta is now in full power, which means it is legally and constitutionally allowed to borrow money and use money set for other purposes. The caretaker government had no such legal powers - it should have been approved before dissolution. The scenario has changed - there are different rules when in caretaker mode than when not. This would have been so even if the constitution had not been suspended even. If the Feb election had gone through and a new government was sitting, regardless of colour, then they could have done likewise. To be fair, the PTP had ample time to pay prior to dissolution (even prior to the protests for that) and ample time to set up and agree loans/inter-departmental redistribution of budget/funds also - they did not and therefore caused themselves the problems in tying to cover it.

[wolf5370]

It all sounds good, and I (tentatively now he's dismissed the senate) support that General........but professional soldiers are not economists. I hope he's doing the right thing.

Politicians are not economists either ... and what is an economist anyway, to 'study, develop, and apply theories and concepts from economics and write about' ... not unlike a weather reporter really ...

Yes - both can see yesterday in perfect vision, but can only use trends and expert knowledge to estimate what is to come. However, no one cares about yesterday's weather - they do care about where the money went yesterday that is supposed to pay for tomorrow!

[wolf5370]

"BAAC president Luck Wajananawat said as the Constitution has been suspended, the bank could disburse from its reserves and the farmers' fund to pay farmers at the earliest following orders from the National Council for Peace and Order."

What??? If the constitution is in place then the funds are not available but if the constitution is suspended then they are! Unbelievable even for Thailand.

And what happens to the BAAC if the NCPO defaults on its loan?

Under the constitution the bank is required to keep enough reserves so it can cover the withdrawing of their customers savings.

Today it doesn't seem important that the bank can go tits up anytime and thereby swindle their long time customers out of their life savings.

One has to remember that when the bank was going to say yes (and the staff went ape), then there was going to be a run on the bank; that is not true today, so there is not the same threat as there was. If what you say happens, and the government does not back it, then you will have an argument, right now you only have a worry. Nothing will be at risk as long as people keep cool and do not cause a run on the bank - finances to cover it can be sorted out and as a last resort the junta can always take a loan for transfer funds from elsewhere to cover it - or simply limit the withdrawal limit on the bank to protect it from a run.

[wolf5370]

well, now the former government knows what they needed to do to pay the farmers: throw out the constitution! anyone who thinks YS didn't want the farmers paid is too caught up in their own rhetoric to think clearly. they tried but they were blocked at every turn because the yellow's didn't want the farmers paid- much better for them if it was there to drive a wedge in the government's base.

but it sets a super great precedence: want thing done? throw out the constitution.

super.

Praise Buddha. I was reading all these posts just waiting to read one from someone who actually gets it.

Thank you.

Gets what? The latest propaganda pamphlet from the Red Typing Pool? Try reading all the replies to his statement and maybe you will actually "get it" yourself for real!

[wolf5370]

It all sounds good, and I (tentatively now he's dismissed the senate) support that General........but professional soldiers are not economists. I hope he's doing the right thing.

Politicians also are NOT economists, they rely on their respective depts.

...or not when they bypass Finance Ministry!

[wolf5370]

This will be the money that was not available to the ex government?

Good question, I was wondering the same. I seem to recall (and I may very well be mistaken) that Yingluck tried to make payments recently, prior to her dismissal, to the farmers and was denied by either BoT or Parliament, can't remember which.

Also, and perhaps I don't understand the farmer/rice thing well enough, but if the 'rice pledging scheme' was such an outrageous crime perpetrated by the previous administration, why is it now suddenly okay? Or am I confusing two different issues?

I suppose it can be said this is a debt incurred by the Thai government which still has to be discharged. Imagine the mayhem if the farmers were told they would not be paid.

I hope the General will scrap this stupid rice thing the farmers were ok with the way before.

Next question is will the scheme be scaled back or abandoned completely ?

I don't think they were alright before so much, but yes it was a poorly thought-out scheme based on the hope of controlling the world rice prices, demand and supply - which is not possible with so many producing countries and a rice boom!

The scheme needs to be replaced with subsidy akin to that everyone else in world uses - placed alongside protective legislation as to margins through the supply chain (to stop the bottom end squeeze and the middle-man absorbing all the profit) and legislation to protect and encourage rice farmer co-ops and opening the trade in unmilled rice to encourage competition in the centre. This should be coupled with incentives to rotate crops and fallow paddy 1 in 5 (or less) to keep production down and keep soil healthy. Its doable and would help both the industry, the quality and the bottom of the supply line (the farmers) much more than the current system does. Also look at compulsory purchase of bank owned repossessed aggro land to rent out to farmers at peppercorn rents whilst being worked, and pulling back unused NS1/2 land that is being held by the wealthy that is unproductive (it is government owned anyway) - and doing likewise. I also like the idea someone else said (I liked them for it) that loan sharks profiting from this should be forced to lower their interest rates - or banks should cover those loans at zero or peppercorn rates - and the loan sharks closed down.

[wolf5370]

BAAC president Luck Wajananawat said as the Constitution has been suspended, the bank could disburse from its reserves and the farmers' fund to pay farmers at the earliest following orders from the National Council for Peace and Order.

I just can't wrap my head around this statement: what are the conditions in the constitution that forbids the government to repay it's debts? I am sure potential creditors would like to know also...maybe my head has to be square shaped in order to understand..., or the BAAC guy is grasping at straws...

It's not repaying debts, its getting the funds to do so. The problem was that in caretaker mode the government could not borrow money or rearrange budgets set before. This no longer applies as the Junta is de facto government now and even so have suspended most of the constitution, so they now legally can do both.

[attento]

Maybe a bad move for Army to honour the ex-government bribes.

Establishing precedents.

Next time Thaksin's party is back in power, cynically they can make even bigger bribes, knowing they wont ever repay, and leave that to the inevitable Coup that would follow, to settle their debt, yet again.

Why not leave the Thaksin bribe unfulfilled. Then the poor farmers might remember who is the cause of their plight.

The poorest farmers should unquestionably be helped, but by finding a different and openly honest way of doing so.

It wasn't a bribe. It is a debt owed for rice pledged to the Govt scheme. A crop now owned by the military who are in power.

I don't agree with the coup but if the Junta have the funds they are doing the hounourable thing repaying what has been owed for up to 7 or 8 months to poor farmers.

I live in a rice farmer village and the unjust hardship they have had forced upon them is terrible.

To suggest nonpayment as a way to teach them some kind of lesson smacks of meaness and vindictiveness.

Sir, Maybe you didnt have time to read to the end of my small contribution. I was suggesting the rice farmers must be supported immediately, but according to some new and rational scheme for rural support. In no way should the rice farmers be inconvenienced because of the previous adminstration's incompetence. Unfortunately, it is unlikely the Army have the time or knowledge to devise such a robust scheme. Where is the meaness in letting the failures and mal-administration of the last government remain as a memorial to their incompetence ?

Edited May 25, 2014 by attento

[khungribo]

Great to see the farmers will be paid after so much suffering. General Prayuth is doing a wonderful job and will finally bring fairness and justice to the Thai people. General Prayuth we salute you.

[473geo]

What you are correctly stating is the higher price of fertiliser, why to rack up more profit. This is one of the reasons why an other kind of help to the farmers would be better. But of course PTP did not want this.

It would have been much better to give people help based on the amount of rice land they had with an upper limit. This way its an easy process and you help the poorest farmers while excluding the richer ones and of course the people who sell fertilizer and such.

But there is not much room for corruption in a scheme like that so PTP does not like it.

(actually there are 2 options either they are stupid and did not realize the downsides that I mentions or they did and it was intended.)

'Rice land they had'

Meaning what, owned, rented, farmed on behalf of somebody else for profit share

Pure waffle Robblok, paying farmers 10,000 - 12,000 baht a ton and taking a massive margin is in itself not corrupt, however, it does rather concentrate the wealth in the pockets of the 'middlemen' not the producer, something which the rather less observant members on the forum appear to believe arrived with the guaranteed price for farmers!

Of course the farmers need their money, how else would the agricultural dependant business survive, suddenly it would appear a concern for the anti subsidy posters, who 6 months ago were prepared to dismiss the benefit to supporting industries gained from the subsidy as minimal

In a time of crisis there is a certain comedic element in the regular posters twists and turns......very amusing

I mean.....your post was not meant to be serious....right?

[ginjag]

How stupidly cleaver of the General to make a payment to the farmers that should ensure him some support from the one place that he needs most, the hart of the red country. Chuck them a few crumbs to day and screw it back out of them tomorrow.

It's posts like this in this situation that mods are having to close down topics. Enjoy tonight go out after 11pm and have a good drink.

[Basil B]

How stupidly cleaver of the General to make a payment to the farmers that should ensure him some support from the one place that he needs most, the hart of the red country. Chuck them a few crumbs to day and screw it back out of them tomorrow.

What a pathetic comment...

That was Thaksins policy, he does not need the support of the farmers with 250,000 armed army personnel, but the farmers do need the money.

[wolf5370]

If the army actually does pay off the farmers so quickly then its shows just how bad the Shins where are governance and good at inciting trouble... The army look like they have planned this very meticulously and yes, played Taksin at his own game... For the first time in a along while i do think Thailand has a much positive future.... Many events will shape that future but a least the evil one has been cut out of it.

You are joking............right?

tell me what is wrong with this post then...

If the Army does come up with the cash quickly, then it tells you that it was the Army or the people who control the Army that were stopping the cash from reaching the farmers in the first place.

Of course it doesn't. It means the army is in a position to raise the funds legitimately that the caretaker government were not - that is all it says. In fact it proves that the constitution was stopping the caretaker government raising funds they supposedly already had to pay the farmers by robbing Peter to pay Paul or taking unbudgeted loans - all of which were illegal under caretaker mode. It proved the banks were not intimidated sufficiently to risk more debt to a government already showing their ineptitude in finances and inability to keep to budgets - would you lend someone money to pay back a loan, when they are not legally allowed to borrow it, have no transparency on accounts, could not (or would not) account for the cash already loaned to pay for it, and assets based on already decaying perishable assets? No bank I know would.

[thongsuknork]

money is money all are waiting Well Done Thai Army we Salute You on behalf of Farmers

[wolf5370]

Please read the article again. Self explanatory.

"BAAC president Luck Wajananawat said as the Constitution has been suspended, the bank could disburse from its reserves and the farmers' fund to pay farmers at the earliest following orders from the National Council for Peace and Order."

May be this is the main reason why the constitution was suspended?

I would imagine the main reason was to allow an appointed government to be put in place to break the impasse left by a dysfunctional government and a populous at odds with itself. There are only two constitutional ways of making a government, election or in extreme times, such as when the EC cannot provide a free and fair election, then the Senate can appoint one. Neither could happen under the current scenario (without bloodshed) so the military stepped in, suspended (NOT tore up!) the constitution to allow a third way, or to allow the Senate to safely appoint, a new interim government. However, it does also allow for other fixes, such as this one - all measures to calm down the populous and return to normalcy.

[wolf5370]

How stupidly cleaver of the General to make a payment to the farmers that should ensure him some support from the one place that he needs most, the hart of the red country. Chuck them a few crumbs to day and screw it back out of them tomorrow.

As opposed to promising them cake and not even giving them those crumbs and watching them starve while you eat steak they earned you?

[wolf5370]

BP says the money will be paid in one month and not tomorrow. Time will tell but the Bangkok elite sure doesn't want to pay off the farmers. It will be paid by the Ministry of FInance that needs 30 days to get the funds and only Buddha knows how much will be stolen away before the farmers get paid. Same same - new government same money politics.

That is pure supposition - you predict that it will be stolen - whilst it will be scrutinised like never before - and therefore state it is the same. It has only just been announced, lets wait the 30 days it takes for the FM to raise the coffers and see shall we - then you may have cause to state "Same same - new government same money politics" - currently you have not!

I hope the 10bn held in donations will be paid in the mean time.

[Crushdepth]

About frigging time.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[kickstart]

It all sounds good, and I (tentatively now he's dismissed the senate) support that General........but professional soldiers are not economists. I hope he's doing the right thing.

I can rememer when Bann-Har and Chow-alit where PM's,thay just spent money,they where not eccnomists, then came the 1997 crash, are we starting to go that way againe.

[Gonsalviz]

Any farang that lives here should have sense and access to so many souces of news that they should never try yo back one side or another of Thai politics. The are all 100 % corrupt as well as 100% of politicians in any other country.

Thailand has never pospered under 1 regime or the other. Thaksin was wise enough to use the popular vote to be elected. Corrupt as hell but it worked. The Democrats do the same with the southerners, central and BKK voter.

Bottom line, only the corrupt win.

[ikke]

Well done Khun General Prayuth. One need not say more.

Edited to add well there is actually. It shows truly which person and group in Thailand has the people who are most needy at the center of their hearts. Wake up Issan the Army and this General is the best friend and ally you have going for you.

well done, to tear the country down. one need not say more....

You are such an a****hole

[ericjt]

Anybody know why the stored rice is not being sold on the world market for whatever Thailand can get for it? And the money used to pay at least part of what's owed?

I heard today that under the rules of the WTO (World Trade Organization), subsidized crops and/or subsidized manf goods cannot be sold internationally, as it represents unfair competition. I also heard that the US and other large members of the G8 or G20 were putting a great deal of pressure on Thailand not to sell its warehoused rice on the international market -- or face sanctions if they try.

Has anyone else heard anything about this?

[Beetlejuice]

"BAAC president Luck Wajananawat said as the Constitution has been suspended, the bank could disburse from its reserves and the farmers' fund to pay farmers at the earliest following orders from the National Council for Peace and Order."

What??? If the constitution is in place then the funds are not available but if the constitution is suspended then they are! Unbelievable even for Thailand.

And what happens to the BAAC if the NCPO defaults on its loan?

Under the constitution the bank is required to keep enough reserves so it can cover the withdrawing of their customers savings.

Today it doesn't seem important that the bank can go tits up anytime and thereby swindle their long time customers out of their life savings.

Previously BAAC relied substantially on government budget, overseas borrowings and forced savings from commercial banks as sources of funds. Later, BAAC started its savings mobilization and gradually built up its own strong deposit base and now has become self-reliant in its rural financing functions. Deposits become the main source of BAAC funds accounting for 84% of the total. As a result, BAAC has generated an unprecedented record of 986 billion Baht savings or US$ 33 billion through its famous Thaweesin and Thawechoke savings schemes.