Unprofessional and unskilled English Teacher's do you feel guilty?

[kuifje]

I agree that some non-native speakers with very heavy accents shouldn´t be teaching, but there are a lot of foreigners (like myself) who have trained and achieved a near perfect accent and are therefore very much qualified to teach if we have the linguistic knowledge.

Accents aside, I believe that non-natives often have much greater knowledge of English than natives, since the natives simply have acquired the language, and not really learned it.

I can agree with this. There are teacher from other non-native backgrounds with very good & clear English language skills. They had to learn and practice the language. So they are able to teach this to their students.

Many of the so called native English speakers (from many countries), have very heavy accents. They speak to fast for many non-native learners. They not always pronounce English in clear and correct may.

[Baerboxer]

To teach a language, does 1 need to be a native speaker ?

No.

But one does need to be a qualified teacher with a professional attitude and extensive knowledge of the language being taught.

Not someone out to earn a bit of pocket money, with limited knowledge, and no teaching ability/

[sanuk711]

^{"when some philopines were coming over to teach,"--jake}

^{Wow --a country headed this way, how will it fit ?---please tell me your not associated with teaching--}

^{I'm not also, but I went to many schools to learn the Thai language when I first came to live here. The standard, even in the more reputable one's like AUA etc for a Thai teaching was woeful, other than the fact that the Thai language was native to them their knowledge was very limited , but we all came away from that, with a smattering of the Thai language and some went on further from there. So, maybe that's all that is needed when you are starting from zero .}

[andyko]

You obviously not read my above comment properly. Mandatory....not optionally.

Yes I did read your post - Its the same in my country I was forced to learn French and German!

As you claim that only native speakers teach languages in your country it must be a very small country.

Liechtenstein/ Luxemburg ?

Small Britain?

[inutil]

To teach a language, does 1 need to be a native speaker ?

No.

But one does need to be a qualified teacher with a professional attitude and extensive knowledge of the language being taught.

Not someone out to earn a bit of pocket money, with limited knowledge, and no teaching ability/

You have sort of explicated the real root cause. If you want a real teacher then stop paying "pocket money".

[Baerboxer]

To teach a language, does 1 need to be a native ?

I think its a good start to be native at least! As just yesterday I was speaking to a friend of a friend that is Chinese's and he is a qualified Chinese teacher here in Bangkok, and he was joking to me that there are French and Spanish English Teacher here in Thailand with heavy accents. He taught it was hilarious!

Don't shot the messengers here please.....

Hmmmm..i come from The Netherlands and it is mandatory that kids start to learn 3 other languages when they start high school. English, french and german. Do you really think that we have thousands of natives from those countries teaching their respective languages ?

Agree. When I went to high school one language I had to learn was Latin. Not too many native Latin speakers around in those days.

Better to learn from a non native speaker who is a qualified teacher with a professional attitude rather than a native speaker has no qualifications, little experience and little interest other than the pay packet.

The Netherlands and Switzerland have great programs for languages, They also make sure they use teachers not backpackers, retired expats, or anyone just looking for a some extra cash.

Teaching isn't easy, particularly children. Not everyone can do it. Would you let someone who played a sport for a longtime treat your children's sports injuries or coach them, just because they could play?

[smotherb]

Yes in my Country at least my French Teacher was French and my German Teacher was German! makes sense!

Please, where someone was born has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not they can speak or teach any language.

[Baerboxer]

To teach a language, does 1 need to be a native speaker ?

No.

But one does need to be a qualified teacher with a professional attitude and extensive knowledge of the language being taught.

Not someone out to earn a bit of pocket money, with limited knowledge, and no teaching ability/

You have sort of explicated the real root cause. If you want a real teacher then stop paying "pocket money".

Interesting point. Teachers in most countries I know are relatively poorly paid compared to peer professionals.

Finland and South Korea regularly score highest in the tables comparing education standards in abilities in different countries. And they treat teachers as professionals with suitable remuneration. They also have very structured probationary periods, mentors and assessments etc.

I know many good teachers who have left the profession purely because they can earn more for the families doing something else.

Even in some Middle East countries the pay for expat teachers was low compared to peer professionals. These countries have the money so it wasn't low from necessity. Some of the standards of expats they recruited reflected that, as you would expect.

We live in a world where education and the ability to continually learn and turn larger and rapidly changing amounts of information into knowledge is becoming more and more important, paramount to success. And still many countries, in the West too, don't address the basics, like teaching standards, including pay and retention of high performing professionals.

[pigeonjake]

As an "untrained" English teacher myself, NO. I do feel bad for the kids as the system is set up against them. There are many bad teachers both "trained" and "untrained" running around Thailand. As for myself, I have taken several "unrecognized" courses and try to update my skills regularly. According to Thailand and most other countries, I am not a "qualified" teacher. I am however, a much better teacher than most of the "qualified" teachers I know.

Its not the certificate you have, its how much time and effort is put into the craft. Unfortunately in Thailand there are too many people working in all varieties of schools simply looking for a paycheck and not a job. Those people should be ashamed. The hard truth is that the system here works against anyone actually trying to teach the kids. The best teachers I know cant keep a job because they refuse to follow the path of least resistance. Conversely, the worst teachers I know are set for life because they dont try to change "how we have always done it" mentality.

they arnt looking for a pay check, THEY ARE LOOKING FOR A VISA,

plain and sinple

[inutil]

One of my favorite co-teachers was a youngish teacher in Trat. I wont say her name, but she busted her hump to teach those kids English. The rest of the English department in that school was... weak, either lacking confidence or inclination. But she was a phenomenon. She was pulling those kids up purely by the force of her own will and energy. These arent easy battles, the kids are super sweet, but English wasn't really the most pressing of their concerns (despite living in a town that does see enough tourism to at least make it relevant to some degree). We did a speaking test just before i left that had me stunned in amazement at just how low their level was (all the way to M3). Youre talking about kids who are repeating text books in their English class and literally just mouthing sounds out. They could read the passage they were currently on, but couldnt read an incredibly simple passage from the P4 textbook. (This is my friend... she is... she has... etc). This is the backdrop of what she was pushing against.

Anyways, i remember having a conversation with her. She comes from Chiang Rai, and aside from lamenting that the kids in Trat were super rude in we were talking about pay for English teachers in Thailand. She told me flat out that she could walk into a job in tourism, like her friends did, paying almost twice what she earned as a teacher. Now maybe there is some hyperbole there. Maybe there isnt. Im not an expert on Thai tourism. But the point is this:

There may come a time that Thailand loses one of the most dedicated, hard working teachers Ive personally seen simply because it doesn't reward them and to be honest, that should be viewed as a national failure. Lets not even speak of ESL salaries (which are embarrassingly HIGH in Thailand despite being relatively woeful in the East Asian ESL industry). For a country like Thailand, they really need to start collecting taxes and paying for a proper and functioning education system. And part of that will be a genuine living wage for QUALIFIED and DEDICATED teachers. And by teachers we dont mean someone who passed a stupid test by reading some books. We mean people that have had supervision over the course of several years by qualified and experienced teachers culminating in a genuine and formal teaching qualification. In that same school i also saw some shockers. Homeroom teachers who laughed at clear examples of students being bullied and ostracized by their entire class as well as teachers who spent their time in class on their phone while the students did something with a textbook. Then theres the teachers who just didnt show up and the schools who had no one around to even supervise the kids, let alone teach them. Its a mess.

I left for China because it was just utterly overwhelming. I didnt even know where to begin...

Edited May 30, 2014 by inutil

[Soutpeel]

To teach a language, does 1 need to be a native speaker ?

No.

But one does need to be a qualified teacher with a professional attitude and extensive knowledge of the language being taught.

Not someone out to earn a bit of pocket money, with limited knowledge, and no teaching ability/

I am being pedantic I know...but define extensive knowledge of the language ?

[gamini]

some of the "native" English teachers in this country have such bad accents they do no credit to thier profession. Whilst many Indian and other nationalities speak much better and understandable English. I would want my children to learn to speak what one may call "the qeens English" and certainly not cockney or north country English. The point I am making is that the teachers nationality should not be the criteria.

[Nickthegreek]

To teach a language, does 1 need to be a native ?

I think its a good start to be native at least! As just yesterday I was speaking to a friend of a friend that is Chinese's and he is a qualified Chinese teacher here in Bangkok, and he was joking to me that there are French and Spanish English Teacher here in Thailand with heavy accents. He taught it was hilarious!

Don't shot the messengers here please.....

Hmmmm..i come from The Netherlands and it is mandatory that kids start to learn 3 other languages when they start high school. English, french and german. Do you really think that we have thousands of natives from those countries teaching their respective languages ?

I am a native Brit, I was also forced to speak to other languages at school, to this day I cannot speak French or German, However I can speak Thai to a very high standard !! so should I teach Thai then ?...I can bang on here for quite some time as to why its important for it to be a native speaker as I have a 5 year old daughter, and I spend time training Her for the simple fact, non native speakers cannot do it ..FACT !!I can list all the problems with Thais spoken English and the training is simply not up to a native UK teachers standard.however they teach written English in Thailand very well...

Edited May 30, 2014 by Nickthegreek

[AYJAYDEE]

To teach a language, does 1 need to be a native ?

I think its a good start to be native at least! As just yesterday I was speaking to a friend of a friend that is Chinese's and he is a qualified Chinese teacher here in Bangkok, and he was joking to me that there are French and Spanish English Teacher here in Thailand with heavy accents. He taught it was hilarious!

Don't shot the messengers here please.....

Hmmmm..i come from The Netherlands and it is mandatory that kids start to learn 3 other languages when they start high school. English, french and german. Do you really think that we have thousands of natives from those countries teaching their respective languages ?

I am a native Brit was also forced to speak to other languages at school, to this day I cannot speak French or German, However I can speak Thai to a very high standard !! so should I teach Thai then ?...I can bang on here for quite some time as to why its important for it to be a native speaker as I have a 5 year old daughter who I spend time training for the simple fact, non native speakers cannot do it ..FACT !!

they can do it far better thn thais can

[Nickthegreek]

According to what or Who......We can bang on about this for hours...Thailand stance is anyone will do..!! they have no money, its incumbent upon us as parents to take responsibility suck it up and move on..We cannot change the lack of funding and poor choices made here

[F4UCorsair]

One of my favorite co-teachers was a youngish teacher in Trat. I wont say her name, but she busted her hump to teach those kids English. The rest of the English department in that school was... weak, either lacking confidence or inclination. But she was a phenomenon. She was pulling those kids up purely by the force of her own will and energy. These arent easy battles, the kids are super sweet, but English wasn't really the most pressing of their concerns (despite living in a town that does see enough tourism to at least make it relevant to some degree). We did a speaking test just before i left that had me stunned in amazement at just how low their level was (all the way to M3). Youre talking about kids who are repeating text books in their English class and literally just mouthing sounds out. They could read the passage they were currently on, but couldnt read an incredibly simple passage from the P4 textbook. (This is my friend... she is... she has... etc). This is the backdrop of what she was pushing against.

Anyways, i remember having a conversation with her. She comes from Chiang Rai, and aside from lamenting that the kids in Trat were super rude in we were talking about pay for English teachers in Thailand. She told me flat out that she could walk into a job in tourism, like her friends did, paying almost twice what she earned as a teacher. Now maybe there is some hyperbole there. Maybe there isnt. Im not an expert on Thai tourism. But the point is this:

There may come a time that Thailand loses one of the most dedicated, hard working teachers Ive personally seen simply because it doesn't reward them and to be honest, that should be viewed as a national failure. Lets not even speak of ESL salaries (which are embarrassingly HIGH in Thailand despite being relatively woeful in the East Asian ESL industry). For a country like Thailand, they really need to start collecting taxes and paying for a proper and functioning education system. And part of that will be a genuine living wage for QUALIFIED and DEDICATED teachers. And by teachers we dont mean someone who passed a stupid test by reading some books. We mean people that have had supervision over the course of several years by qualified and experienced teachers culminating in a genuine and formal teaching qualification. In that same school i also saw some shockers. Homeroom teachers who laughed at clear examples of students being bullied and ostracized by their entire class as well as teachers who spent their time in class on their phone while the students did something with a textbook. Then theres the teachers who just didnt show up and the schools who had no one around to even supervise the kids, let alone teach them. Its a mess.

I left for China because it was just utterly overwhelming. I didnt even know where to begin...

Inutil, if you're an English teacher, with your leaving, Thailand's schools are the winners.

I don't set out to be objectionable, but your English is not good, even after I allow for possible typos.

Edited May 30, 2014 by F4UCorsair

[332]

To teach a language, does 1 need to be a native speaker ?

No but,

I think you would strugggle to teach me Mandarin Chinese.

You only have to stay one lesson ahead.

[AjarnMartin]

I agree that some non-native speakers with very heavy accents shouldn´t be teaching, but there are a lot of foreigners (like myself) who have trained and achieved a near perfect accent and are therefore very much qualified to teach if we have the linguistic knowledge.

Accents aside, I believe that non-natives often have much greater knowledge of English than natives, since the natives simply have acquired the language, and not really learned it.

Linguistic knowledge? How about knowing that the adverb comes before the verb and splits 'have' and the past participle in your text?: "natives have simply acquired..." :-)

[NoshowJones]

May I point out that as an English teacher for three years and having attended those camps, my opinion is they are very good for the children and there are always experienced English teachers in charge.

There are unqualified Farangs there, but as volunteers, they do not take part in any actual teaching as far as I have seen, but they have to be commended, and they do a great job.

Encourage your children to go to those camps, they will all have a great time. and they will learn a lot.

[inutil]

One of my favorite co-teachers was a youngish teacher in Trat. I wont say her name, but she busted her hump to teach those kids English. The rest of the English department in that school was... weak, either lacking confidence or inclination. But she was a phenomenon. She was pulling those kids up purely by the force of her own will and energy. These arent easy battles, the kids are super sweet, but English wasn't really the most pressing of their concerns (despite living in a town that does see enough tourism to at least make it relevant to some degree). We did a speaking test just before i left that had me stunned in amazement at just how low their level was (all the way to M3). Youre talking about kids who are repeating text books in their English class and literally just mouthing sounds out. They could read the passage they were currently on, but couldnt read an incredibly simple passage from the P4 textbook. (This is my friend... she is... she has... etc). This is the backdrop of what she was pushing against.

Anyways, i remember having a conversation with her. She comes from Chiang Rai, and aside from lamenting that the kids in Trat were super rude in we were talking about pay for English teachers in Thailand. She told me flat out that she could walk into a job in tourism, like her friends did, paying almost twice what she earned as a teacher. Now maybe there is some hyperbole there. Maybe there isnt. Im not an expert on Thai tourism. But the point is this:

There may come a time that Thailand loses one of the most dedicated, hard working teachers Ive personally seen simply because it doesn't reward them and to be honest, that should be viewed as a national failure. Lets not even speak of ESL salaries (which are embarrassingly HIGH in Thailand despite being relatively woeful in the East Asian ESL industry). For a country like Thailand, they really need to start collecting taxes and paying for a proper and functioning education system. And part of that will be a genuine living wage for QUALIFIED and DEDICATED teachers. And by teachers we dont mean someone who passed a stupid test by reading some books. We mean people that have had supervision over the course of several years by qualified and experienced teachers culminating in a genuine and formal teaching qualification. In that same school i also saw some shockers. Homeroom teachers who laughed at clear examples of students being bullied and ostracized by their entire class as well as teachers who spent their time in class on their phone while the students did something with a textbook. Then theres the teachers who just didnt show up and the schools who had no one around to even supervise the kids, let alone teach them. Its a mess.

I left for China because it was just utterly overwhelming. I didnt even know where to begin...

Inutil, if you're an English teacher, with your leaving, Thailand's schools are the winners.

I don't set out to be objectionable, but your English is not good, even after I allow for potential typos.

Oh god...

[Africanteacher]

Arghhh.... Not this issue again!

[NoshowJones]

We have a Philippine employee in our office that would run rings around 90% of the farang professionals in Thailand and probably speaks better English. If they are all like this I will hire nothing but Filipinos.

I have worked with Filipino English teachers, and there English is every bit as good, if not better than native English speakers.

[Soutpeel]

I agree that some non-native speakers with very heavy accents shouldn´t be teaching, but there are a lot of foreigners (like myself) who have trained and achieved a near perfect accent and are therefore very much qualified to teach if we have the linguistic knowledge.

Accents aside, I believe that non-natives often have much greater knowledge of English than natives, since the natives simply have acquired the language, and not really learned it.

Linguistic knowledge? How about knowing that the adverb comes before the verb and splits 'have' and the past participle in your text?: "natives have simply acquired..." :-)

how about stop being an English Nazi ?....

A normal native English speaker typically doesn't give a toss about adverb's, verbs and past participles, and one suspects this is one of the problems with some of the English teachers in Thailand, they are not teaching English, they are teaching grammar and this maybe is one of the reasons Thai's are not learning the language properly, they are bored sh*tless with adverb's, verbs and past participles.

I certainly know I was at school and I am a native speaker... .....How to get people to lose the enthusiasm for learning English.....teach them grammar...IMHO

[Soutpeel]

We have a Philippine employee in our office that would run rings around 90% of the farang professionals in Thailand and probably speaks better English. If they are all like this I will hire nothing but Filipinos.

I have worked with Filipino English teachers, and there English is every bit as good, if not better than native English speakers.

Define "good" ?

[AYJAYDEE]

I agree that some non-native speakers with very heavy accents shouldn´t be teaching, but there are a lot of foreigners (like myself) who have trained and achieved a near perfect accent and are therefore very much qualified to teach if we have the linguistic knowledge.

Accents aside, I believe that non-natives often have much greater knowledge of English than natives, since the natives simply have acquired the language, and not really learned it.

Linguistic knowledge? How about knowing that the adverb comes before the verb and splits 'have' and the past participle in your text?: "natives have simply acquired..." :-)

how about stop being an English Nazi ?....

A normal native English speaker typically doesn't give a toss about adverb's, verbs and past participles, and one suspects this is one of the problems with some of the English teachers in Thailand, they are not teaching English, they are teaching grammar and this maybe is one of the reasons Thai's are not learning the language properly, they are bored sh*tless with adverb's, verbs and past participles.

I certainly know I was at school and I am a native speaker... .....How to get people to lose the enthusiasm for learning English.....teach them grammar...IMHO

you hit the nail exactly, there i no maybe about it

[lucifer666]

I have several students who were taught English by non native speakers. One of them sounds more Russian than Putin and another speaks English like the Muppets Chef.

[attrayant]

Well the thread title certainly qualifies as ironic.

I agree that some non-native speakers with very heavy accents shouldn´t be teaching, but there are a lot of foreigners (like myself) who have trained and achieved a near perfect accent and are therefore very much qualified to teach if we have the linguistic knowledge.

Accents aside, I believe that non-natives often have much greater knowledge of English than natives, since the natives simply have acquired the language, and not really learned it.

I heartily endorse this post. Foreigners and many educated students often have a superb grasp of the mechanics of English, but are so hobbled by a thick accent learned in early childhood that their functional conversation ability is next to nil. As a means of addressing this shortcoming, English camps are a day late and a dollar short. Children need to spend unstructured time with native speakers during their developmental years, when they will naturally pick up the language without having to be formally taught. You don't need to have "qualified" teachers to fill this role; you just have to be a native speaker acting in the role of babysitter. Then when it's time for children to learn the nuts & bolts of the language, that's when the babysitters should bow-out and the qualified, degree-holding professionals (both clear-speaking NES and accented non-NES) need to step in.

Thailand is overflowing with retirees and other long-stay folks who could be easily coaxed into toddler workshops and kindergarten playgrounds one or two days a week in exchange for permission to stay in the country. Immersed in this kind of environment, the children would be speaking without accents after just a year or two. Of course an idea this progressive this will never see the light of day in reactionary, feudal Thailand. In my opinion, Thailand is ignoring this gold mine of (essentially free) education for their children in the years when it matters most.

Edited May 30, 2014 by attrayant

[razer]

You have to check out the school and it depends on the age of the students. Learning everyday English in a fun environment doesn't hurt anyone. In fact, I met a 10 year old kid here who spoke perfect English with a perfect American accent. I asked him if he lived in the US. He said had never been there. He learned English via day care and kindergarten with native speakers. But there is a time when language learning gets serious and qualified teachers are necessary.

[CqK]

I only referred to the fact that you are a native english speaker....to come up with a statement as you did before.

Next time.....read read and read...properly.

Not everybody has the means to learn a language and consequently be taught by a native speaker.

Learning a language at schools is to know and understand the basics of said language. Profiency comes ....well ...i stated that before.

I disagree, over the last 30 odd years I have worked with many nationalities, including German's, Dutch, Italian who have learned English as second language from a young age in school and I would consider them fluent in both written and spoken English and even they make basic mistakes in English which a native speaker would not make (one hopes) in both spoken and written English and they would never be mistaken as a native speaker

I am sorry but IMHO, as I have said before if some is paying to be taught a language, I believe the person could be disadvantaged if they are not taught by a native speaker.

Would you not agree that there is a difference between speaking a language, as a non native, and teaching it, again, as a non native speaker. That is why there are courses/studies to become a teacher.

You simply assume that anyone who can speak a language, as per your own example above, thinks that he/she is qualified to become a teacher in said language. No doubt though that there are people with a similar mindset.

Please specify the posts "Soutpeel" has made where he/she has stated that he/she thinks anyone is qualified to teach their native language.

Also, I do believe naunces of one's native language are taught in the classroom. Language is very cultural . . .

[NoshowJones]

I think that non-native speakers, such as the Scottish and Liverpudlians, should be given the chance to teach English too once they pass a IELTS test or whatever it's called.

I am Scottish and passed the TEFL course, and I can say that the way I spoke in the classroom, and the way I speak normally are very different. I do agree with you about the Liverpudlians, their accent is really dreadful, the mens high pitched voices? Oh dear.

They could probably be the same as me and speak clearly and slowly in the classroom.