Drinkers Diary Vs Alcoholics Anonymous

[kayo]

I don´t think I could bring myself to anything like AA, or related associations.

Here on tv.com, I feel already that I am amongst friends, and people that I can relate to, or vice versa.

This is better for me, personally. Maybe there is an anonimity factor, but not so much, as some of you do know me, either directly or through my resort, or through the friends I made in Kan, in later years.

I´m on day five. Not of not drinking. But of keeping the drinks to a minimum (two or three glasses of wine) , going home when I should, not when I am broke. Getting to bed early and waking up and doing something with my life. No more partying. No more escape-ism. as little procratination as poss.

[robitusson]

With all due respect, Tuky, this thread was opened precisely to discuss methods for quitting.

ANd we are stopping on the 30th. Whether AA, or DD likes it or not.

Wishing you the best of luck.

Understood mate, but why are we condoning statements like the following?

The concept of powerlessness in AA is essential for potential members to submit to the central religious beliefs of the movement.

We are here to quit drinking, not debate whether AA is a relgious organisation or whether ZZ has a sexual conotation etc etc.

So I stand by my post.

If I was to get sober using AA, would that be valid in the eyes of some? but not valid in the eyes of the critics?

Lets just support each other.

If you were to get sober with AA, you'd be one of 5% who do. I get your point though. The debate belongs elsewhere. Sincerely the best of luck.

[ThaiPauly]

I would REALLY LIKE TO SEE those of you that DO NOT have a drinking problem

Butt out... and leave it to us, you really have proved you are a clueless bunch

Thank You

TP

[Mark L.]

If its about quitting drinking why wouldn't one want to look at what works and doesn't? Or discuss different views so one can choose the path that they feel is right??

Why not look at both sides before deciding.

IMO if you cannot question and look-I get worried

If it takes power and ability away from you-I get worried

If it says you are helpless and not responsible and NEED us or something else-I get worried.

But that might be the path for some people.

The statistics I've seen are VERY low for AA success. The numbers they give (reportedly as I have not looked really deep) are out of the people that stick with the group for x amount of years or something. They don't iunclude all the people that it didn't work for who left etc

Something like that. Statistics can be made to look like what you want.

That path is right for some (even if it doesn't work for them) IMO

I think its wise to look at and contradicting views and use a little common sense and see what your heart is saying.

this is all about RR.. read or skip

to "Rational Recovery", and it makes HUGE sense to me..

Having the thought process that you are not resposible, that you will slip up, that it is an addiction etc allows you to rationalize drinking. It allows you to have the thought that one day you will drink again (and its not your fault cause its a disease). It takes away the need to be responsible for ones own life.

This allows the 'reptillian' brain to continue to get what it wants. The human'brain' turns the want into a thought and will change the thought in anway to supply the want.

All these thoughts about it being something you can't controle allow the brain know that at sometime it will be able to supply this want. Deciding never to supply this want ever again freaks the 'reptillian' brain out.

The basic concept is along the lines of taking controle of the 'reptillian' with the 'human' brain.

Basically instead of the thought "I want a drink". you recognize that the 'reptillian' brain wants a drinjk and that your 'human' brain is creating the thought. So you can amost 'parent' the 'reptillian' part of your brain with your 'human' brain.

You change the thought to 'IT' wants. They suggest calling it something like a beast (the 'reptillian' brain works on instinct it has no powers of thought on its own).

I remember trying to quit smoking.. I'd drive by a gas station and in my head there was this huge conflict and stress. This big dicotomy of 'I want a smoke and 'I don't want a smoke'. I'd stress and have these mind wars passing every gas station.

It sounds too simple but when I said 'It wants a smoke' it was quite easy to say no as I!! did NOT want one.

Now this will only work IF you REALLY do want to stop ____ing for the rest of your life and make that dicision. If not don't!

The tricky stuff comes in with recognizing 'IT' talking (through 'human' brain)..

Right now think to yourself about stopping forever!!! You WILL hear 'IT' talking. It will say 'That is not possible', 'Thats a load of bs', 'No one can make that kind of choice', 'Its a disease'

etc etc etc its endless.

So starting to recognize all the talk is the trick.

'I haven't had a smoke in 3 weeks and I just had the most stressful 2 days. I deserve a smoke.. I already know I can stop'

That is 'IT' talking. Once you can hear this you CAN shut 'IT' (or the beast or whatever you want to call it) up!!!!!!!

This is the basic concept of the book. It will go through it better and in more detail but if anyone IS seriously interested in becoming a non-drinker the above should work just fine. If its difficult the book could do much better... its all about learning to hear and change that voice..

'Just a sip as it would be rude not to'

'I have to drink a toast at my sisters wedding'

'There is nothing I vcan do about it'

'It runs in the genes'

recognize 'IT' and YOU can controle 'IT'. You can say no to someone that is not you... think of 'IT' like a bad child. When you seperate 'IT' from you...

I honestly had almost NO cravings (smoking). When I did have some I looked at my thinking.. Guess what I found? I found 'IT' talking..

All the best

(I don't believe any one way is right for everyone-some are not ment to quit IMO for one but also different things work for different people... That said that could be 'IT' talking to keep the path open for 'IT' to get what 'IT' wants.

Peace :)v

cutting back is away of 'IT' keeping it coming... thats 'ITs' only goal. Never drinking again would kill 'IT' (as 'IT' sees it) and ANYTHING to keep it coming it will do... according to the RR model.

[robitusson]

I would REALLY LIKE TO SEE those of you that DO NOT have a drinking problem

Butt out... and leave it to us, you really have proved you are a clueless bunch

Thank You

TP

You would do well to listen TP.

Who said anyone here doesn't have a drinking problem? I have successfully stayed away from booze completely for 6 years after repeated attempts to control and/or quit chronic long-term heavy and harmful drinking. I have years of successful experience staying off in many difficult circumstances and years of unsuccesful experience before that trying to stay off.

So, you were saying?

[kayo]

I don´t mind a drink. What I personally am trying to achieve is to regain control. Not getting carried away.

Knowing when to say, I´ve had enough.

That´s just me though.

[Khutan]

Kayo;

Agree totally, and your previous post also.

[Mossfinn]

I don´t mind a drink. What I personally am trying to achieve is to regain control. Not getting carried away.

Knowing when to say, I´ve had enough.

That´s just me though.

Well said Kayo,

TP, some people really are like a dog with a bone.

The very best of Irish Luck to you, even if your Mother was from Cork, my parents are from Limerick, just accross the river Lea, all clan Munster though, so no rivalry there then.

Tuky, Mobi, Jai Dee, Khutan and Kat and any others I have missed The Very Best of Luck.

Moss

[cmcsns]

A.A. is religion in disguise.

All the "you can't control your yourself, you're helpless" is a prelude to "finding a higher power". What they don't tell you is that recovery rates with A.A. programs are exactly the same as through will power alone (about 10%).

There was a good Penn & Teller episode about A.A. where they went through the history of it, I'd recommend anyone to check it out.

Alcoholism is not a disease, it's a behaviour.

And what would be the suggested medicine for this disease?

[Neeranam]

QUOTE(ThaiPauly @ 2006-06-29 20:31:46) *

I would REALLY LIKE TO SEE those of you that DO NOT have a drinking problem

Butt out... and leave it to us, you really have proved you are a clueless bunch

Thank You

TP

You would do well to listen TP.

Who said anyone here doesn't have a drinking problem? I have successfully stayed away from booze completely for 6 years after repeated attempts to control and/or quit chronic long-term heavy and harmful drinking. I have years of successful experience staying off in many difficult circumstances and years of unsuccesful experience before that trying to stay off.

So, you were saying?

So how did you do it?

[robitusson]

A.A. is religion in disguise.

All the "you can't control your yourself, you're helpless" is a prelude to "finding a higher power". What they don't tell you is that recovery rates with A.A. programs are exactly the same as through will power alone (about 10%).

There was a good Penn & Teller episode about A.A. where they went through the history of it, I'd recommend anyone to check it out.

Alcoholism is not a disease, it's a behaviour.

The recovery rate is lower than 10% as I understand. Regardless, the religious (not spiritual) aspect of the programme coupled with the alcoholism-as-disease lie are the realities of the beliefs the movement propegates. What's the Penn & Teller episode you're talking about? I'd be interested in seeing that. Any links to that?

[robitusson]

And what would be the suggested medicine for this disease?

What disease?

[robitusson]

So how did you do it?

I outlined some ideas about where to start giving up in another post. I gave up by taking the problem as seriously as necessary and number one, taking responsability for myself and my own actions.

[Simmo]

What's the Penn & Teller episode you're talking about? I'd be interested in seeing that. Any links to that?

The episode is Season 2 , Episode 11 ("12 stepping") of their "Penn & Teller: B*Shit" series. It's a really great show where they debunk a lot of pseudoscientific & cultural fads. They take a very libretarian stance on issues like gun control & illegal drugs.

There's an episode listing here.

http://epguides.com/PennandTellerBullshit/

Season 4 just finished airing in the US. You can download all the seasons & epsiodes on the popular TV torrent sites.

[robitusson]

The episode is Season 2 , Episode 11 ("12 stepping") of their "Penn & Teller: B*Shit" series. It's a really great show where they debunk a lot of pseudoscientific & cultural fads. They take a very libretarian stance on issues like gun control & illegal drugs.

There's an episode listing here.

http://epguides.com/PennandTellerBullshit/

Season 4 just finished airing in the US. You can download all the seasons & epsiodes on the popular TV torrent sites.

Thanks. I'll have a look.

[Mark L.]

Good to see there are some people out there not being sheep

Good luck to all regardless of method (ultimatly it comes down to a dec)

[sabaijai]

I would REALLY LIKE TO SEE those of you that DO NOT have a drinking problem

Butt out... and leave it to us, you really have proved you are a clueless bunch

Thank You

TP

I must have missed the proof. Anyone who drinks has a potential problem.

I think it's worth examining the methodology before committing to a programme, as opposed to the 'Don't confuse me with the facts approach.'

[percy2]

Whatever...exactly...

We can debate what will work until the fat lady sings.

The only thing that will cause someone to stop is the desire to.

Everything else is a crutch.

Tucky ,

I completely sympathise with you.

I sinecerely hope you get over your problems.

But the forum is called "I drink too much"

Not "this is my crutch to help me stop driking"

I drink too much , but I dont call myself an alcaholic.

May be I am in denial.

Maybe not.

Hope the best for u.

Cheers

[percy2]

All concerned, we are not debating what program works.

We are here in the "I drink too much" forum because we drink too much. Not because we want to know if AA or DD or ZZ or GG or YY will help us, but because we want to help ourselves.

SO please take your debate elsewhere.

Lets us get along with what we have to do.

ANd we are stopping on the 30th. Whether AA, or DD likes it or not.

I hope TV will open a special place for us ,where we do not have to listen to the above crap.

Sorry meant to cobine your 2 answers.

But maybe the best thing is for people to be correctly advised.

I would guess for the benefit of TV you should get your own sub.

Don't mean to pick on you , you are one of the most lucid posters.

Cheers

[robitusson]

Good to see there are some people out there not being sheep

Good luck to all regardless of method (ultimatly it comes down to a dec)

dec? You mean decision? Agreed.

[jamman]

I don´t mind a drink. What I personally am trying to achieve is to regain control. Not getting carried away.

Knowing when to say, I´ve had enough.

That´s just me though.

I have the same aim as you. I'd like to be able to be a moderate drinker, and even allow the occasional good drunk, without slipping into drinking more than I wish that I had. I'm not sure if I'll be able to be a moderate drinker, for reasons most of us know - it's a slippery slope.

I took 5 or 6 weeks off, then started drinking last week. I've wound up drinking every night. But at least it was mostly moderately.

One way to contain totally loosing it for me is to set and keep certain limits. I'd wait until 7pm. That's not so hard. Another would be by keeping only the days ration of booze in the house at a time, and not go out and buy more once it is done, even if feeling all sobered up and ready to party more. One mickey is enough to get a good buzz, but I never have personality or judgement problems with that.

It gets harder to keep limits if socializing at a bar. And when I really start to lose it is if I start to drink in the day, then the night, and then heavily at night. That's when the personality changes can come in - if not that night then possibly in the morning. A lot of that and then I only feel normal if buzzed. That's when I miss the clarity and joys of being sober. I don't like having a reputation of not walking straight.

So, I'd like to drink moderately, and when I do lose it, I want to lose it within acceptable limits. I hope I don't have to do total abstinence, but I realize and understand that the time comes for some of us where total abstinence is our only way to avoid skidding down that slippery slope.

[robitusson]

What's the Penn & Teller episode you're talking about? I'd be interested in seeing that. Any links to that?

The episode is Season 2 , Episode 11 ("12 stepping") of their "Penn & Teller: B*Shit" series. It's a really great show where they debunk a lot of pseudoscientific & cultural fads. They take a very libretarian stance on issues like gun control & illegal drugs.

There's an episode listing here.

http://epguides.com/PennandTellerBullshit/

Season 4 just finished airing in the US. You can download all the seasons & epsiodes on the popular TV torrent sites.

Watched it today. :)A very funny watch. Recommended viewing for anyone being advised to attend AA here.

[jamman]

A quick note about trying moderation over abstinence. For a guy like me with a long drinking history that includes long periods of regular and sometimes heavy drinking, it is a bit risky. I didn't drink last night, did each night for 8 nights, after 5 weeks sober. The two nights before last I had decided to pull back and stay dry, but was so bored that I just went ahead and drank a few big bottles of beer - two one night and five the next. So after the period of sobriety I started out with no real cravings, then just went into a little fun drinking, then started to feel the cravings, then had a difficult time not yielding to them - in other words started to lose control. So if I want to succeed at moderation, I'll have to back off now until the cravings go away. It is when my will power is subverted by craving that I'm out of control and feel alcoholic, so I have to notice that clearly and make sacrifices to avoid it.

http://moderation.org/ seems to be a good support group for those who want to try this approach.

I can see as clearly as anyone that this is a risky approach, won't work for everyone, and might not work for me. I don't think "alcoholism" is a black and white issue, where the definition rests on whethere your only solution to the drinking problem is abstinence or not. I don't believe that a person who has been alcoholic can never drink again, otherwise they were never alcoholic. I've been alcoholic for several periods in my life, and followed them up with either long periods of sobriety - months or years, or drinking that was not heavy. It seems to me that the brain changes incured from long term drinking make it harder and harder to again drink moderately without losing control. The brain needs periods of sobriety to bring us out of the addiction, and then we need to keep it from falling into addiction, with periods of abstinence and overall moderation. To do that requires a lot of attentiveness, and discipline, because we will run into the cravings when we drink.

Many of us get benefits from alcohol that we don't know how to get in other ways. I don't consider myself shy, but I'm no extrovert. Alcohol makes me socially at ease in groups. It sparks creativity. It can even make me bowl better, get into my flow. Sometimes I feel like I'm an overall better person with a bit of a buzz on. But these last few years I've been getting the opposite comments from others - that I look stupid and ugly drunk, that I change into a different person, that they don't like me drunk. I put it down to the brain changes from too much drinking - I'm no longer just a healthy guy with a buzz on, now I'm an alcoholic with all the mood changes that heavy drinkers get.

The newscientist article I posted mentioned using pot or GHB as drinking substitutes. Both do work well for a lot of people. I don't want to live a sober boring dull grey existance - some happy let go loose time is good - and not all of us get that without chemicals.

Edited July 15, 2006 by jamman

[BalthazarBeefheart]

A quick note about trying moderation over abstinence. For a guy like me with a long drinking history that includes long periods of regular and sometimes heavy drinking, it is a bit risky. I didn't drink last night, did each night for 8 nights, after 5 weeks sober. The two nights before last I had decided to pull back and stay dry, but was so bored that I just went ahead and drank a few big bottles of beer - two one night and five the next. So after the period of sobriety I started out with no real cravings, then just went into a little fun drinking, then started to feel the cravings, then had a difficult time not yielding to them - in other words started to lose control. So if I want to succeed at moderation, I'll have to back off now until the cravings go away. It is when my will power is subverted by craving that I'm out of control and feel alcoholic, so I have to notice that clearly and make sacrifices to avoid it.

http://moderation.org/ seems to be a good support group for those who want to try this approach.

I can see as clearly as anyone that this is a risky approach, won't work for everyone, and might not work for me. I don't think "alcoholism" is a black and white issue, where the definition rests on whethere your only solution to the drinking problem is abstinence or not. I don't believe that a person who has been alcoholic can never drink again, otherwise they were never alcoholic. I've been alcoholic for several periods in my life, and followed them up with either long periods of sobriety - months or years, or drinking that was not heavy. It seems to me that the brain changes incured from long term drinking make it harder and harder to again drink moderately without losing control. The brain needs periods of sobriety to bring us out of the addiction, and then we need to keep it from falling into addiction, with periods of abstinence and overall moderation. To do that requires a lot of attentiveness, and discipline, because we will run into the cravings when we drink.

Many of us get benefits from alcohol that we don't know how to get in other ways. I don't consider myself shy, but I'm no extrovert. Alcohol makes me socially at ease in groups. It sparks creativity. It can even make me bowl better, get into my flow. Sometimes I feel like I'm an overall better person with a bit of a buzz on. But these last few years I've been getting the opposite comments from others - that I look stupid and ugly drunk, that I change into a different person, that they don't like me drunk. I put it down to the brain changes from too much drinking - I'm no longer just a healthy guy with a buzz on, now I'm an alcoholic with all the mood changes that heavy drinkers get.

The newscientist article I posted mentioned using pot or GHB as drinking substitutes. Both do work well for a lot of people. I don't want to live a sober boring dull grey existance - some happy let go loose time is good - and not all of us get that without chemicals.

[BalthazarBeefheart]

[

Sorry my post yesterday seems to have gone astray. I have had experience of AA and maintaining a drinkers diary and would like to say that it was only attending AA that I really came to deal with having a serious drinking problem. Sure the drinkers diary helped me realise how well I could do when things were going well but at times of real stress everything went out the window. It was when I was hitting the bars around 4pm then drinking till staggering home and vowing never to drink again when waking feeling like shit only to start again around 4 - it was like a Groundhog Day experience and it was only with the help of two friends who had been to AA that I attended a meeting sweating and shaking like mad. Yes sure it is religious based many of the speakers will talk about God - I just let all that stuff go in one ear and out the other. What I did find a great help was listening to people whose experiences were far worse than my own and comfort from those who were similar and how they were dealing with them. I did find what appeared to me was that the alcoholism was a mask for deeper psychological problems - in some cases very obviously and others a tendency to blame one's parents for the situation. I don't know what the cause of alcoholism is but AA taught me to realise I am one - I remained dry for about 6 months since I occasionally drink socially and also some days get absolutely smashed but then lay off it - for me Alcohol is a dangerous drug and I have to be careful with it but AA has taught me to take it a day at a time. The figures about AA recovery rates etc which are referred to on links on here are farcical - how can you track the recovery of Anon when you don't even know who or where they are.

Really its not drinkers diary v Alcoholics Anonymous it's moderation v abstention - and I would say to anyone whose situation has become such they are considering this then just get along to an AA meeting and listen - you don't have to go again but it may well help you for the future. Incidentally AA is a charitable organisation promoting abstinence something the drinks industry promoting moderation is not.

I too like the previous poster want some happy let go loose time and alcohol is my chosen chemical - I suppose I just try to moderate the frequency of use and notice how much better I feel on days of abstinence.

Edited July 18, 2006 by BalthazarBeefheart

[iquittoday]

All concerned, we are not debating what program works.

We are here in the "I drink too much" forum because we drink too much. Not because we want to know if AA or DD or ZZ or GG or YY will help us, but because we want to help ourselves.

SO please take your debate elsewhere.

Lets us get along with what we have to do.

ANd we are stopping on the 30th. Whether AA, or DD likes it or not.

I hope TV will open a special place for us ,where we do not have to listen to the above crap.

Dear all,

I agree with Tuky, and I think I understand what he's saying.

With all due respect, I have not read 1 single word/remark about (the essence/meaning of) Drinkers Diary in the entire thread (ok, maybe 1 or 2, don't start counting and flaming :-)). I have no clue what it is, and 6 pages of forum replies didn't fill in that lack of knowledge. Google didn't do a very good job either, however DD is in the title of this topic so I expected at least some info.

So how about opening a topic called:

Drinkers Diary vs Alcoholics Anonymous ... oh wait, I see there is one already!

And maybe another about "AA Pro's and Cons" to take that discussion to, so we can decide whether or not we want to read that. I have to go through 70% of AA discussions to get 30% on-topic content. I am interested in staying sober, not in discussions about AA.

These discussions about AA's religious/spiritual "whatever" seem to infest this topic, and other topics (however useful, interesting, entertaining but IMO off topic).

And yes, I know, AA can be an essential part of the process, DD might be as well, WP (Will Power), CS (Common Sense), FS (Family Support) etc. etc. as well

regards,

IQ (17 days without a drink now!)

[rodeoooo]

A.A. is religion in disguise.

All the "you can't control your yourself, you're helpless" is a prelude to "finding a higher power". What they don't tell you is that recovery rates with A.A. programs are exactly the same as through will power alone (about 10%).

There was a good Penn & Teller episode about A.A. where they went through the history of it, I'd recommend anyone to check it out.

Alcoholism is not a disease, it's a behaviour.

Do your homework mate

First you have to identify the subjects then you can classify them

Problem drinkers and heavy drinkers CAN quit on thier own (still might be <deleted> though)

the "Real Alcoholic" however CANNOT stay quit on his/her own

Do the homework before you quote

FYI the real recovery rate is less than 5% for "real alcoholics"

but that is a BS figure because NO ONE can get an accurate count

Oh, and the AMA ( i know the dreaded yanks ) DOES classify alcoholism as a disease

it has a etioligy, symptoms and a treatment

[robitusson]

the "Real Alcoholic" however CANNOT stay quit on his/her own

I know. They need a "Higher Power" to do that.

[sabaijai]

A.A. is religion in disguise.

All the "you can't control your yourself, you're helpless" is a prelude to "finding a higher power". What they don't tell you is that recovery rates with A.A. programs are exactly the same as through will power alone (about 10%).

There was a good Penn & Teller episode about A.A. where they went through the history of it, I'd recommend anyone to check it out.

Alcoholism is not a disease, it's a behaviour.

Do your homework mate

First you have to identify the subjects then you can classify them

Problem drinkers and heavy drinkers CAN quit on thier own (still might be <deleted> though)

the "Real Alcoholic" however CANNOT stay quit on his/her own

Do the homework before you quote

FYI the real recovery rate is less than 5% for "real alcoholics"

but that is a BS figure because NO ONE can get an accurate count

Oh, and the AMA ( i know the dreaded yanks ) DOES classify alcoholism as a disease

it has a etioligy, symptoms and a treatment

Actually in its current publications, the AMA tend not to use the terms 'alcoholism' or 'alcoholic' but rather refer to alcohol-related disorders, further subdivided into 'alcohol abuse disorder' and 'alcohol dependence disorder'. No mention of 'real alcoholics', whatever that means.

AMA's Clinician's Guide for Alcohol Disorders

The American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abuse carries frequent articles on alcohol dependence (e.g., "Alcohol dependence, other psychiatric disorders, and health-related quality of life: a replication study in a large random sample of enrollees in the Veterans Health Administration"). Again use of the terms 'real alcoholic', 'alcoholic' or 'alchoholism' tends to be avoided.

[rodeoooo]

A.A. is religion in disguise.

All the "you can't control your yourself, you're helpless" is a prelude to "finding a higher power". What they don't tell you is that recovery rates with A.A. programs are exactly the same as through will power alone (about 10%).

There was a good Penn & Teller episode about A.A. where they went through the history of it, I'd recommend anyone to check it out.

Alcoholism is not a disease, it's a behaviour.

Do your homework mate

First you have to identify the subjects then you can classify them

Problem drinkers and heavy drinkers CAN quit on thier own (still might be <deleted> though)

the "Real Alcoholic" however CANNOT stay quit on his/her own

Do the homework before you quote

FYI the real recovery rate is less than 5% for "real alcoholics"

but that is a BS figure because NO ONE can get an accurate count

Oh, and the AMA ( i know the dreaded yanks ) DOES classify alcoholism as a disease

it has a etioligy, symptoms and a treatment

Actually in its current publications, the AMA tend not to use the terms 'alcoholism' or 'alcoholic' but rather refer to alcohol-related disorders, further subdivided into 'alcohol abuse disorder' and 'alcohol dependence disorder'. No mention of 'real alcoholics', whatever that means.

AMA's Clinician's Guide for Alcohol Disorders

The American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abuse carries frequent articles on alcohol dependence (e.g., "Alcohol dependence, other psychiatric disorders, and health-related quality of life: a replication study in a large random sample of enrollees in the Veterans Health Administration"). Again use of the terms 'real alcoholic', 'alcoholic' or 'alchoholism' tends to be avoided.

To level the playing field, methinks one should define the types of alcoholics

The ONLY place i have personally seen the types described is in the AA Big Book

I know from personal first hand experiance that the above mentioned

type 1 - heavy drinker

type 2 - problem drinker

CAN quit, because ETOH is thier problem

the above types are describing Alkies only

not cross addicted bi polar, deprssive etc

Alkies only

again my prsonal first hand experiance

the type 3- "real alcoholic", his/her problem is NOT Alchohol, it is there self perscribed medication

for a 3 fold disease that is mental, spritual and physical

(i am not sold on the "disease" concept, but <deleted>, it is a easy way to describe it)

when the recovery rate for the real alkie was 75%, the 3 types were screened for

that is why the recovery rate was so high

now we lump in type 1 & 2, nuts, bi polar, depressives, addicts and misfits, becuse they drink also

to treat a person, you have to know the primary disease

my only hope is to let another guy that may be a real alkie, find a soultion that is 100% effective