Thailand still very low in English language skills

[claffey]

It's not the students' fault, Apitha, it's the system's fault, and the culture's fault. Fix those - ha! - and the students will learn. So forget about it. Thais will always be hopeless at English. Always. Forever.

And 'farang' will always be useless at Thai!!!Always, forever...

[thailiketoo]

Why always assume that Western methods are best for people from the East? Thai people need to learn how to survive and be successful in Thai society...The arrogance of 'educated' people from the West is mindboggling. Despite years of been trained in 'critical thought' Westerners always assume they know what is best for 'developing countries'...

Critical thought is being critical of anything not from my country.

[claffey]

Ramit.

So very well said. I would only add a comment about Thai world awareness. I once taught a large group of final year university teaching students - who were going out to be English teachers in our province. Most of them had been learning English for about 15 years. Out of 35 I could only have a reasonable conversation with 3. Many of TV previous comments are true. Example: "I want you to tell me if you don't understand' response -"We can't do that - you're the teacher".

I enjoyed teaching them, but struggled with the critical thinking part, and was shocked by their lack of world awareness. ...and they were the best students in the Uni. Predictably the ones who came from better educated families, and who had travelled themselves, were more confident, would ask questions and produced better results. Unfortunately most had absolutey no idea about concepts of learning. Regurgitating a written curriculum was going to be their job. Sad to say but Thailand still has a long way to go in education.

I am also shocked by my students lack of world awareness. Most of them can't even find Germany on the map, let alone any Asian countries...I teach in the UK...

[claffey]

Get rid of the stupid TCT Qualification requirement and the need for native English speakers to have a degree would be a start. Even an A Level requirement could be done away with the implementation of an English competence test... that + a TEFL certificate would be more than sufficient. The TCT Qualification requirement means that experienced and dedicated teachers are leaving. Get rid of the incomprehensible Africans as well - how they can be classed as ‘native teachers’ with their ‘pigeon English’ I don’t know. Come up with a curriculum, having the native teachers come up with their own each year means that when they leave (virtually a new teacher each year) they teach the same as previous teachers albeit in a different way so there is no progression.

Would you allow your kids to be taught French or any subject by an unqualified teacher??!!! A TEFL cert if all well and good but its a month long qualification. If all TEFL teachers also held PGCE''s the standard of teaching and learning would increase dramatically. Teaching is a skill that has to be acquired through study and many years of experience....By being a fluent, native speaker does not qualify you to teach...

[smotherb]

I don't think Thais really consider English an important language in the big picture. The Thai Consulate General in Sydney says Thais in Australia should be learning Thai in Aussie schools.

What is wrong with learning your native language? Certainly, all foreigners in any country should learn to speak the official language of the country, but they should also learn their ancestral language. Now, whether or not it should be at the expense of all taxpayers and be taught in public school is up to the school district and its constituents.

[seajae]

a lot of the problem id the thai attitude to english, they seem to think it is inferior to thai and refuse to sully themselves with it. Unfortunately as long as the better than you attitude exists it will never improve, these people need to realize that the only ones they are causing grief to by not learning it are themselves. It is the same with education, students are "dumbed" down so that the "elite" can control what happens here, until such time as we see real tests in schools and real results it will not improve. The current attitude of we are the greatest simply doesnt cut it, when you see a pm that cannot even string together a pre school standard sentence in english you really have to wonder, for that matter, how many of the the thai mp's are capable of holding a conversation in english, not very many and this is why Thailand is falling behind the rest of the world, they need to actually modernize and accept change, they dont have to stop being thai but they do need to be able to converse with the rest of the world.

[claffey]

I have spent 10 wasted years trying to teach English in Thailand. Now it is up to the army and if I may make a few suggestions

1. Only employ native English speakers. Filipina and other non native speaking teachers teach to the level of their competence not to the level needed by the students.

2. Pay a decent salary to the teachers who are prepared to work in the provinces

3. Appoint someone who knows English to be in charge.

4. Allow the students to fail if they are not at a reasonable level. In 50 years of teaching, this is the only country where I have been orders to change my marks so that everyone passes, even students who do not attend class.

5. Publish the curriculum in English and Thai so that we are working off the same page

6. Get the parents out of the classroom. To be told by a parent that a quarter past two was wrong and that it should be 15 minutes past two is more that counter productive, especially when they say it as you give the lesson, in front of the class.

7. Have some objective form of assessment for children to progress. I have had students who could nor read Thai let alone English pass with flying colours.

Now, that would be a start then you could have the Thai English teachers teach in English without fear.

.

In the UK students don't fail too. They receive a 'national curriculum level'. When they achieve a level they can never go below that level again. So 'if a student gets a high level in an easy test they can stop learning as they have already achieved a high level... Not too different to the Thai system of not failing students....

[thailiketoo]

a lot of the problem id the thai attitude to english, they seem to think it is inferior to thai and refuse to sully themselves with it. Unfortunately as long as the better than you attitude exists it will never improve, these people need to realize that the only ones they are causing grief to by not learning it are themselves. It is the same with education, students are "dumbed" down so that the "elite" can control what happens here, until such time as we see real tests in schools and real results it will not improve. The current attitude of we are the greatest simply doesnt cut it, when you see a pm that cannot even string together a pre school standard sentence in english you really have to wonder, for that matter, how many of the the thai mp's are capable of holding a conversation in english, not very many and this is why Thailand is falling behind the rest of the world, they need to actually modernize and accept change, they dont have to stop being thai but they do need to be able to converse with the rest of the world.

Every important person in Thailand goes to school in the West? Every Important thing that is built in Thailand is designed by the West and built under the supervision of Western engineers. Thais know China produces junk. Thais know everybody who is anybody speaks English. I think you will have to look elsewhere for an excuse to excuse Thai educators.

Educators at the top are corrupt and stealing the money. No one rats them out because of the old boy system. The same problem exists in the Washington DC school system. They hired a lady to clean house and she got fired for cleaning house.

It's not an easy problem. Detroit and Washington can't do it. Why would you expect Thailand to be able to? You think they speak English in Detroit or Washington?

[chainarong]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

I have just finished teaching an intensive English conversation course to medical students.

It was a 14 day course with no tests whatsoever. Just pure conversation, fun and games.

The students wrote in their evaluations that "they learnt more in the last 14 days, without the pressure of grades, than in the whole semester.

What I mean to say is that the report is correct in many aspects. Thai students have this fear of getting low grades and this probably influences their confidence and learning abilities.

On a side note...They are all potential surgeons but I hope I never have to be operated on by one of them. Even though the course was fun and games the students cheated a lot by texting messages to each other. If they cheat in fun activities what do they do in their academic studies?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Unfortunately for the country rather than actual students the whole system is flawed from the outset.

Cheating isn't really seen as wrong. Remember the incident at Ramkamheng Uni with Mr. Ts son and the comments of the deputy head who said cheating was not a serious matter.

Students don't really have to fear failure as for many and varied reasons not many do unless an outcast and a real nonentity.

Students get passes and qualifications they didn't earn or don't deserve and the country gets landed with all these ' qualified ' people.

The deputy head of Ramkhamhaeng Uni. said cheating is not a serious matter and now it's OK for Thai students to cheat.

Bill Clinton said BJs weren't sex so now very many high school students in the US give oral sex thinking it is not 'real' sex.

It begins with the leadership.

Ignoring the standards of my posts here, which are generally off-the-cuff, I professionally proofread/edit Master's and PhDs for various universities, including Chula and Mahidol, etc. You wouldn't believe the amount of copying from each other, and plagiarism which occurs at even PhD level... and yes, I'm deadly serious.

Only last week, I received a PhD paper from Assumption and I ran a turnit-in scan. It came back with 38% copied and plagiarised from the Internet !!!

That's the level we are looking at with regards to cheating. Yet, and despite that, all students PASS, with a little backhander to their advisors...... alt=whistling.gif>

Edit: And let's not forget, the majority of the PhD grads become the next advisors, faculty lecturers and Dept. Heads, etc. and so it goes on!

My son holds a computer, web developer , electronic media degree and has not a clue what Binary maths are, they all go short cut , through the likes of Dream weaver.

[petedk]

I have just finished teaching an intensive English conversation course to medical students.

It was a 14 day course with no tests whatsoever. Just pure conversation, fun and games.

The students wrote in their evaluations that "they learnt more in the last 14 days, without the pressure of grades, than in the whole semester.

What I mean to say is that the report is correct in many aspects. Thai students have this fear of getting low grades and this probably influences their confidence and learning abilities.

On a side note...They are all potential surgeons but I hope I never have to be operated on by one of them. Even though the course was fun and games the students cheated a lot by texting messages to each other. If they cheat in fun activities what do they do in their academic studies?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Maybe the texting was because they were having fun and were supporting each other in their learning.

No. They admitted they were texting info. to each other.

I didn't take it seriously. Just told them to relax and have fun.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[petedk]

I have just finished teaching an intensive English conversation course to medical students.

It was a 14 day course with no tests whatsoever. Just pure conversation, fun and games.

The students wrote in their evaluations that "they learnt more in the last 14 days, without the pressure of grades, than in the whole semester.

What I mean to say is that the report is correct in many aspects. Thai students have this fear of getting low grades and this probably influences their confidence and learning abilities.

On a side note...They are all potential surgeons but I hope I never have to be operated on by one of them. Even though the course was fun and games the students cheated a lot by texting messages to each other. If they cheat in fun activities what do they do in their academic studies?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Unfortunately for the country rather than actual students the whole system is flawed from the outset.

Cheating isn't really seen as wrong. Remember the incident at Ramkamheng Uni with Mr. Ts son and the comments of the deputy head who said cheating was not a serious matter.

Students don't really have to fear failure as for many and varied reasons not many do unless an outcast and a real nonentity.

Students get passes and qualifications they didn't earn or don't deserve and the country gets landed with all these ' qualified ' people.

The deputy head of Ramkhamhaeng Uni. said cheating is not a serious matter and now it's OK for Thai students to cheat.

Bill Clinton said BJs weren't sex so now very many high school students in the US give oral sex thinking it is not 'real' sex.

It begins with the leadership.

Ignoring the standards of my posts here, which are generally off-the-cuff, I professionally proofread/edit Master's and PhDs for various universities, including Chula and Mahidol, etc. You wouldn't believe the amount of copying from each other, and plagiarism which occurs at even PhD level... and yes, I'm deadly serious.

Only last week, I received a PhD paper from Assumption and I ran a turnit-in scan. It came back with 38% copied and plagiarised from the Internet !!!

That's the level we are looking at with regards to cheating. Yet, and despite that, all students PASS, with a little backhander to their advisors......

Edit: And let's not forget, the majority of the PhD grads become the next advisors, faculty lecturers and Dept. Heads, etc. and so it goes on!

Only 38%???

I proofread for students from the same universities. I am sure the figure is much higher.

I sometimes read 10 -15 pages containing only a few mistakes and then comes a page which is totally incomprehensible. I assume that page is their own work.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[ve741]

also remember i am Canadian so I have the right.

What right?

[Bluespunk]

I have just finished teaching an intensive English conversation course to medical students.

It was a 14 day course with no tests whatsoever. Just pure conversation, fun and games.

The students wrote in their evaluations that "they learnt more in the last 14 days, without the pressure of grades, than in the whole semester.

What I mean to say is that the report is correct in many aspects. Thai students have this fear of getting low grades and this probably influences their confidence and learning abilities.

On a side note...They are all potential surgeons but I hope I never have to be operated on by one of them. Even though the course was fun and games the students cheated a lot by texting messages to each other. If they cheat in fun activities what do they do in their academic studies?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Maybe the texting was because they were having fun and were supporting each other in their learning.

No. They admitted they were texting info. to each other.

I didn't take it seriously. Just told them to relax and have fun.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

I guess it depends on what info they were texting. It can be a positive thing of they are supporting each other in working out solutions to a task. Not copying or giving answers but sharing techniques, strategies and approaches to finding a solution. However I admit there is a difference between this and just swapping answers.

[Mudcrab]

No, it’s not our education system, it’s because of GRAMMAR. You think I’m wrong? Then answer this, why is it that after 6-7 years of trying to learn English many of us are incapable of constructing a basic sentence in English conversation? Why is it that the majority of our Thai grammar teachers are incapable of having a basic conversation in English, because we don’t know how to teach VOCABULARY, Vocabulary is not just learning the meaning of items and words, it’s far deeper than that, its teaching you to talk, if you can talk then you can understand, read, and write. Grammar, which is basic sentence structure, will follow automatically. In countries where English is not the first language, grammar should not be concentrated on at primary level, rather vocabulary, which will give the students the basics when reaching high school, which will be a tremendous asset when learning grammar. Including this in the last two years of high school academic vocabulary words should be taught, which in turn would prepare the students for higher learning. In conclusion if you want to improve the English language in Thailand, then we will have to re-educate our educators.

You are so right. Even as an English speaker by birth I still needed to learn English in school. There were two subjects. English Grammar and English Literature. English Literature is how you learn to speak English, not English Grammar.

[Mudcrab]

Get rid of the stupid TCT Qualification requirement and the need for native English speakers to have a degree would be a start. Even an A Level requirement could be done away with the implementation of an English competence test... that + a TEFL certificate would be more than sufficient. The TCT Qualification requirement means that experienced and dedicated teachers are leaving. Get rid of the incomprehensible Africans as well - how they can be classed as ‘native teachers’ with their ‘pigeon English’ I don’t know. Come up with a curriculum, having the native teachers come up with their own each year means that when they leave (virtually a new teacher each year) they teach the same as previous teachers albeit in a different way so there is no progression.

Would you allow your kids to be taught French or any subject by an unqualified teacher??!!! A TEFL cert if all well and good but its a month long qualification. If all TEFL teachers also held PGCE''s the standard of teaching and learning would increase dramatically. Teaching is a skill that has to be acquired through study and many years of experience....By being a fluent, native speaker does not qualify you to teach...

The same can be said about holding all of the pieces of paper....does that make you a good teacher?...of course it doesn't, but what it does do is allow you to hide your inadequacies behind a persona of professionalism protected by a strong Union holding the education system to ransom in your home country. And then bringing the same attitude to another country where you will be paid a pittance and whine about it. Further complaining about how bad the system is because you can't get the students to understand.

A true teacher will do it for the love of imparting knowledge regardless of monetary reward.

[rametindallas]

The deputy head of Ramkhamhaeng Uni. said cheating is not a serious matter and now it's OK for Thai students to cheat.

Bill Clinton said BJs weren't sex so now very many high school students in the US give oral sex thinking it is not 'real' sex.

It begins with the leadership.

Ignoring the standards of my posts here, which are generally off-the-cuff, I professionally proofread/edit Master's and PhDs for various universities, including Chula and Mahidol, etc. You wouldn't believe the amount of copying from each other, and plagiarism which occurs at even PhD level... and yes, I'm deadly serious.

Only last week, I received a PhD paper from Assumption and I ran a turnit-in scan. It came back with 38% copied and plagiarised from the Internet !!!

That's the level we are looking at with regards to cheating. Yet, and despite that, all students PASS, with a little backhander to their advisors......

During my sojourn at a rural university an Australian colleague showed me an essay assignment from a student that had been copied verbatim from a text book and that included references to points that would be discussed in Chapter 3, 6 and so on.

The student concerned had simple copied every word without bothering to exercise care over what he was writing.

Quite believable! However, I must make the observation that it's not all like I observed. 100% of the papers I receive from King Monkut's University, especially the scientific ones, are genuine hard work, original and quite unique and way ahead in latest scientific developments. The same can't be said for Chulalongkorn, however!!

Again, it begins with the leadership.

[rametindallas]

I have just finished teaching an intensive English conversation course to medical students.

It was a 14 day course with no tests whatsoever. Just pure conversation, fun and games.

The students wrote in their evaluations that "they learnt more in the last 14 days, without the pressure of grades, than in the whole semester.

What I mean to say is that the report is correct in many aspects. Thai students have this fear of getting low grades and this probably influences their confidence and learning abilities.

On a side note...They are all potential surgeons but I hope I never have to be operated on by one of them. Even though the course was fun and games the students cheated a lot by texting messages to each other. If they cheat in fun activities what do they do in their academic studies?

Sent from my SM-G900F using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Unfortunately for the country rather than actual students the whole system is flawed from the outset.

Cheating isn't really seen as wrong. Remember the incident at Ramkamheng Uni with Mr. Ts son and the comments of the deputy head who said cheating was not a serious matter.

Students don't really have to fear failure as for many and varied reasons not many do unless an outcast and a real nonentity.

Students get passes and qualifications they didn't earn or don't deserve and the country gets landed with all these ' qualified ' people.

The deputy head of Ramkhamhaeng Uni. said cheating is not a serious matter and now it's OK for Thai students to cheat.

Bill Clinton said BJs weren't sex so now very many high school students in the US give oral sex thinking it is not 'real' sex.

It begins with the leadership.

Fairly silly analogy.

The point is not about the school administrator saying it. The point is that most Thais (old and young, educated and not) seem to agree with the idea.

How many Americans agreed with Bill Clinton's idiotic statement?

I shall await your answer.

The point is not about the school administrator saying it. The point is that most Thais (old and young, educated and not) seem to agree with the idea.

My theory is that, if the leadership says it's OK then it becomes acceptable to society. What is your theory for why " most Thais (old and young, educated and not) seem to agree with the idea."?

How many Americans agreed with Bill Clinton's idiotic statement?

If you read the news in the US, you would know that oral sex has become very common since the President stated that 'oral sex' is not sex. I can't argue with your ignorance of the US media.

I shall await your answer.

[rametindallas]

I dread to think whats happening in their Air Traffic Control towers then.

JFK controller tries to communicate with Air China 981

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NDqZy4deDI

[Seastallion]

They now speak English well.

"now speak good English"

Good is being used as an adjective correctly modifying "English."

"They now speak English well."

"Well" is being used as an adverb modifying "speak." Not quite the same thing.

And, if you are a farang posting in the Education forum or filling out an application to teach English, you would write: " I talk English real good."

Most native English speakers who post on Thai Visa are not in a position to judge Thai spoken/written English ... or that of anyone else.

Your analysis seems to me, a mere plebian, to be technically correct, however "good English" is somewhat clumsier (for want of a better word) than using the adverb "well", to my ear. Or your analysis may be technically incorrect...I"ll have to ask my Thai wife; she's the grammar expert.

Edited June 13, 2014 by Seastallion

[rametindallas]

Not to insult Khin Apitha, but he/she doesn't have a clue why English skills are at the bottom. First, English is taught by non-native English speakers who only know grammar and couldn't carry on a conversation if their life depended on it and they only teach out of the book. Before anyone gives me examples of Thai teachers of English who speak the language brilliantly, I am speaking in general terms. Second, because Thais are not exposed to conversational English, they are too shy/embarrassed to strike up a conversation with a English speaker for practice. Third, it is illegal for an ex-pat to volunteer to teach English without credentials and a work permit. Fourth, rote learning, or parroting, does not teach understanding of what someone else says in English. Lastly (I know, there are many more reasons), the whole education system does not take the learning of English seriously, though they do pay 'lip service' and talk about how important it is and still, nothing changes.

Solution: Send a bright group of newly graduated 'uncontaminated by the system' young teachers abroad to learn not only English as spoken by native English speakers but, more importantly, learn how to use Western methods of teaching. Then, bring those teachers back, give them some authority, and send them around the country to educate other teachers in the Western methods. For the teachers who can't or won't change, early retirement or administrative positions for them; they can't be allowed to continue to hobble education in the Kingdom any longer. Each year, send a new group of the best and brightest teaching graduates abroad so, when they return, they can go out and reinforce what previous Western educated teachers have begun. It will take a generation but is not impossible. Rote learning is a dead-head job for teachers and a dead-end for students. Teaching children how to learn is more important than teaching them facts. Critical thinking would also transform this country into an economic powerhouse. One last point, teaching degrees are the easiest type of degree to get in Thailand as well as in the US. Higher standards need to be installed, and adhered to, for those who hold the main responsibility for the future of the country. Ironically, both Thailand and the US have larger than average budgets for education and continue to get less for their money.

Why always assume that Western methods are best for people from the East? Thai people need to learn how to survive and be successful in Thai society...The arrogance of 'educated' people from the West is mindboggling. Despite years of been trained in 'critical thought' Westerners always assume they know what is best for 'developing countries'...

It seems you've missed the point in your defensiveness over the East not being as advanced as the West. China is very rapidly trying to convert its education system to resemble the West's. It's Rote Learning vs. teaching Critical Thinking. Why do you think every Thai parent, who can afford to, wants their child 'Western' educated (either International school or sent to Western country)? Even if there were no Western' teaching style, the Rote Learning employed in Thailand teaches the children to be good little 'serfs' who never question authority (teachers) and only learn enough to be low-level employees. They will never invent anything on their on as the creativity has been beaten out of them. Diversity of ideas in the classroom is not tolerated, etc. Are you really defending the education system in Thailand? It's got nothing to do with arrogance as, objectively, the Western methods are far superior to Rote Learning. Duh!

[UbonRatch]

The deputy head of Ramkhamhaeng Uni. said cheating is not a serious matter and now it's OK for Thai students to cheat.

Bill Clinton said BJs weren't sex so now very many high school students in the US give oral sex thinking it is not 'real' sex.

It begins with the leadership.

Ignoring the standards of my posts here, which are generally off-the-cuff, I professionally proofread/edit Master's and PhDs for various universities, including Chula and Mahidol, etc. You wouldn't believe the amount of copying from each other, and plagiarism which occurs at even PhD level... and yes, I'm deadly serious.

Only last week, I received a PhD paper from Assumption and I ran a turnit-in scan. It came back with 38% copied and plagiarised from the Internet !!!

That's the level we are looking at with regards to cheating. Yet, and despite that, all students PASS, with a little backhander to their advisors......

Edit: And let's not forget, the majority of the PhD grads become the next advisors, faculty lecturers and Dept. Heads, etc. and so it goes on!

Only 38%???

I proofread for students from the same universities. I am sure the figure is much higher.

I sometimes read 10 -15 pages containing only a few mistakes and then comes a page which is totally incomprehensible. I assume that page is their own work.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

The 38% was just one recent example of a PhD. Of course, I get papers which are up in the high 80% mark of direct Internet plagiarism.

One gets used to 'knowing', as I'm sure you know, whether or not work is original. A student very competent at English will make the same repeated grammatical errors, despite the English being pretty fluent. When it's all PERFECT is the time for a wry smile, and a quick run through turnit-in, for the laugh!

[thailiketoo]

Not to insult Khin Apitha, but he/she doesn't have a clue why English skills are at the bottom. First, English is taught by non-native English speakers who only know grammar and couldn't carry on a conversation if their life depended on it and they only teach out of the book. Before anyone gives me examples of Thai teachers of English who speak the language brilliantly, I am speaking in general terms. Second, because Thais are not exposed to conversational English, they are too shy/embarrassed to strike up a conversation with a English speaker for practice. Third, it is illegal for an ex-pat to volunteer to teach English without credentials and a work permit. Fourth, rote learning, or parroting, does not teach understanding of what someone else says in English. Lastly (I know, there are many more reasons), the whole education system does not take the learning of English seriously, though they do pay 'lip service' and talk about how important it is and still, nothing changes.

Solution: Send a bright group of newly graduated 'uncontaminated by the system' young teachers abroad to learn not only English as spoken by native English speakers but, more importantly, learn how to use Western methods of teaching. Then, bring those teachers back, give them some authority, and send them around the country to educate other teachers in the Western methods. For the teachers who can't or won't change, early retirement or administrative positions for them; they can't be allowed to continue to hobble education in the Kingdom any longer. Each year, send a new group of the best and brightest teaching graduates abroad so, when they return, they can go out and reinforce what previous Western educated teachers have begun. It will take a generation but is not impossible. Rote learning is a dead-head job for teachers and a dead-end for students. Teaching children how to learn is more important than teaching them facts. Critical thinking would also transform this country into an economic powerhouse. One last point, teaching degrees are the easiest type of degree to get in Thailand as well as in the US. Higher standards need to be installed, and adhered to, for those who hold the main responsibility for the future of the country. Ironically, both Thailand and the US have larger than average budgets for education and continue to get less for their money.

Why always assume that Western methods are best for people from the East? Thai people need to learn how to survive and be successful in Thai society...The arrogance of 'educated' people from the West is mindboggling. Despite years of been trained in 'critical thought' Westerners always assume they know what is best for 'developing countries'...

It seems you've missed the point in your defensiveness over the East not being as advanced as the West. China is very rapidly trying to convert its education system to resemble the West's. It's Rote Learning vs. teaching Critical Thinking. Why do you think every Thai parent, who can afford to, wants their child 'Western' educated (either International school or sent to Western country)? Even if there were no Western' teaching style, the Rote Learning employed in Thailand teaches the children to be good little 'serfs' who never question authority (teachers) and only learn enough to be low-level employees. They will never invent anything on their on as the creativity has been beaten out of them. Diversity of ideas in the classroom is not tolerated, etc. Are you really defending the education system in Thailand? It's got nothing to do with arrogance as, objectively, the Western methods are far superior to Rote Learning. Duh!

I went to private schools in the USA till I got to college. Everything was rote learning till I got to college. In college I can only remember one course that was not rote learning. Whenever I did not agree with the instructor I flunked. When it was a question of the instructors opinion being correct or mine being correct; mine got me an F.

I even remember an advanced economics course that I paid for a lawyer to write an opinion. I was definitely right and the professor was wrong. Not only wrong but his opinion was not even legal. I still got an F. And the F was backed up by the dean of the department of Economics.

I have one child who is a pilot. She told me everything in flight school was by rote learning. They didn't want her opinion how to land or take of an airplane.

Edited June 13, 2014 by thailiketoo

[UbonRatch]

They now speak English well.

"now speak good English"

Good is being used as an adjective correctly modifying "English."

"They now speak English well."

"Well" is being used as an adverb modifying "speak." Not quite the same thing.

And, if you are a farang posting in the Education forum or filling out an application to teach English, you would write: " I talk English real good."

Most native English speakers who post on Thai Visa are not in a position to judge Thai spoken/written English ... or that of anyone else.

Your analysis seems to me, a mere plebian, to be technically correct, however "good English" is somewhat clumsier (for want of a better word) than using the adverb "well", to my ear. Or your analysis may be technically incorrect...I"ll have to ask my Thai wife; she's the grammar expert.

Technically, Suradit's English is grammatically correct, although VERY awkard usage.

It's awkard because English is uncountable, in this instance, and we generally don't use 'good' in this order. However, it is correct.

A simile would be, "They now drink good water." In English, we simply wouldn't say this. We wouldn't use 'good' for water, nor the present simple for 'now'.

Of course, it is much better English to say or write, "They now speak English well." So you are both correct, although Suradit's example of English is too awkward for general usage.

[bigbamboo]

The key to learning a language is in actually using the language. Thais in general get very little exposure or chance to use the language.

Maybe so, but I have found most Thais are far less willing to make the effort to converse in a foreign language,when given the opportunity, than any other place I have lived.

Every time I have been to Vietnam, I always have students approach me and ask very politely if they can practice their English with me, I have never had this happen in Thailand

I've found Thai students prefer to practice their 'French'.

[rametindallas]

Not to insult Khin Apitha, but he/she doesn't have a clue why English skills are at the bottom. First, English is taught by non-native English speakers who only know grammar and couldn't carry on a conversation if their life depended on it and they only teach out of the book. Before anyone gives me examples of Thai teachers of English who speak the language brilliantly, I am speaking in general terms. Second, because Thais are not exposed to conversational English, they are too shy/embarrassed to strike up a conversation with a English speaker for practice. Third, it is illegal for an ex-pat to volunteer to teach English without credentials and a work permit. Fourth, rote learning, or parroting, does not teach understanding of what someone else says in English. Lastly (I know, there are many more reasons), the whole education system does not take the learning of English seriously, though they do pay 'lip service' and talk about how important it is and still, nothing changes.

Solution: Send a bright group of newly graduated 'uncontaminated by the system' young teachers abroad to learn not only English as spoken by native English speakers but, more importantly, learn how to use Western methods of teaching. Then, bring those teachers back, give them some authority, and send them around the country to educate other teachers in the Western methods. For the teachers who can't or won't change, early retirement or administrative positions for them; they can't be allowed to continue to hobble education in the Kingdom any longer. Each year, send a new group of the best and brightest teaching graduates abroad so, when they return, they can go out and reinforce what previous Western educated teachers have begun. It will take a generation but is not impossible. Rote learning is a dead-head job for teachers and a dead-end for students. Teaching children how to learn is more important than teaching them facts. Critical thinking would also transform this country into an economic powerhouse. One last point, teaching degrees are the easiest type of degree to get in Thailand as well as in the US. Higher standards need to be installed, and adhered to, for those who hold the main responsibility for the future of the country. Ironically, both Thailand and the US have larger than average budgets for education and continue to get less for their money.

Why always assume that Western methods are best for people from the East? Thai people need to learn how to survive and be successful in Thai society...The arrogance of 'educated' people from the West is mindboggling. Despite years of been trained in 'critical thought' Westerners always assume they know what is best for 'developing countries'...

It seems you've missed the point in your defensiveness over the East not being as advanced as the West. China is very rapidly trying to convert its education system to resemble the West's. It's Rote Learning vs. teaching Critical Thinking. Why do you think every Thai parent, who can afford to, wants their child 'Western' educated (either International school or sent to Western country)? Even if there were no Western' teaching style, the Rote Learning employed in Thailand teaches the children to be good little 'serfs' who never question authority (teachers) and only learn enough to be low-level employees. They will never invent anything on their on as the creativity has been beaten out of them. Diversity of ideas in the classroom is not tolerated, etc. Are you really defending the education system in Thailand? It's got nothing to do with arrogance as, objectively, the Western methods are far superior to Rote Learning. Duh!

I went to private schools in the USA till I got to college. Everything was rote learning till I got to college. In college I can only remember one course that was not rote learning. Whenever I did not agree with the instructor I flunked. When it was a question of the instructors opinion being correct or mine being correct; mine got me an F.

I was born in 1952 and went to a rural school until grade 10 when I transferred to a small town high school. Beginning in grade 4, excepting for mathematics, the sciences and grammar, lively discussions were encouraged. We were questioned more than lectured to. The only teachers who weren't keen to discuss were the ones who were not prepared in the subject matter. I'm sorry you got Unionized teachers who don't need to perform to earn their salary. I am aware the the educations system in the US has greatly deteriorated since my school days. I have continued with life-long self education because I had teachers who inspired me to learn. IMO, one of the reasons for he decline of the US is the decline of its education system.

"The mediocre teacher tells,

the good teacher explains,

the superior teacher demonstrates,

the great teacher inspires"

William Arthur Ward

[thailiketoo]

Why always assume that Western methods are best for people from the East? Thai people need to learn how to survive and be successful in Thai society...The arrogance of 'educated' people from the West is mindboggling. Despite years of been trained in 'critical thought' Westerners always assume they know what is best for 'developing countries'...

It seems you've missed the point in your defensiveness over the East not being as advanced as the West. China is very rapidly trying to convert its education system to resemble the West's. It's Rote Learning vs. teaching Critical Thinking. Why do you think every Thai parent, who can afford to, wants their child 'Western' educated (either International school or sent to Western country)? Even if there were no Western' teaching style, the Rote Learning employed in Thailand teaches the children to be good little 'serfs' who never question authority (teachers) and only learn enough to be low-level employees. They will never invent anything on their on as the creativity has been beaten out of them. Diversity of ideas in the classroom is not tolerated, etc. Are you really defending the education system in Thailand? It's got nothing to do with arrogance as, objectively, the Western methods are far superior to Rote Learning. Duh!

I went to private schools in the USA till I got to college. Everything was rote learning till I got to college. In college I can only remember one course that was not rote learning. Whenever I did not agree with the instructor I flunked. When it was a question of the instructors opinion being correct or mine being correct; mine got me an F.

I was born in 1952 and went to a rural school until grade 10 when I transferred to a small town high school. Beginning in grade 4, excepting for mathematics, the sciences and grammar, lively discussions were encouraged. We were questioned more than lectured to. The only teachers who weren't keen to discuss were the ones who were not prepared in the subject matter. I'm sorry you got Unionized teachers who don't need to perform to earn their salary. I am aware the the educations system in the US has greatly deteriorated since my school days. I have continued with life-long self education because I had teachers who inspired me to learn. IMO, one of the reasons for he decline of the US is the decline of its education system.

"The mediocre teacher tells,

the good teacher explains,

the superior teacher demonstrates,

the great teacher inspires"

William Arthur Ward

I went to a famous college prep school and a prestigious 200 year old university. I graduated from college when you were about 10 years old.

[Bpuumike]

My mother-in-law does not speak a word of English. How perfect is that.

+1

But she's a lovely lady and we manage to communicate surprisingly well.

[rametindallas]

Not to insult Khin Apitha, but he/she doesn't have a clue why English skills are at the bottom. First, English is taught by non-native English speakers who only know grammar and couldn't carry on a conversation if their life depended on it and they only teach out of the book. Before anyone gives me examples of Thai teachers of English who speak the language brilliantly, I am speaking in general terms. Second, because Thais are not exposed to conversational English, they are too shy/embarrassed to strike up a conversation with a English speaker for practice. Third, it is illegal for an ex-pat to volunteer to teach English without credentials and a work permit. Fourth, rote learning, or parroting, does not teach understanding of what someone else says in English. Lastly (I know, there are many more reasons), the whole education system does not take the learning of English seriously, though they do pay 'lip service' and talk about how important it is and still, nothing changes.

Solution: Send a bright group of newly graduated 'uncontaminated by the system' young teachers abroad to learn not only English as spoken by native English speakers but, more importantly, learn how to use Western methods of teaching. Then, bring those teachers back, give them some authority, and send them around the country to educate other teachers in the Western methods. For the teachers who can't or won't change, early retirement or administrative positions for them; they can't be allowed to continue to hobble education in the Kingdom any longer. Each year, send a new group of the best and brightest teaching graduates abroad so, when they return, they can go out and reinforce what previous Western educated teachers have begun. It will take a generation but is not impossible. Rote learning is a dead-head job for teachers and a dead-end for students. Teaching children how to learn is more important than teaching them facts. Critical thinking would also transform this country into an economic powerhouse. One last point, teaching degrees are the easiest type of degree to get in Thailand as well as in the US. Higher standards need to be installed, and adhered to, for those who hold the main responsibility for the future of the country. Ironically, both Thailand and the US have larger than average budgets for education and continue to get less for their money.

Why always assume that Western methods are best for people from the East? Thai people need to learn how to survive and be successful in Thai society...The arrogance of 'educated' people from the West is mindboggling. Despite years of been trained in 'critical thought' Westerners always assume they know what is best for 'developing countries'...

It seems you've missed the point in your defensiveness over the East not being as advanced as the West. China is very rapidly trying to convert its education system to resemble the West's. It's Rote Learning vs. teaching Critical Thinking. Why do you think every Thai parent, who can afford to, wants their child 'Western' educated (either International school or sent to Western country)? Even if there were no Western' teaching style, the Rote Learning employed in Thailand teaches the children to be good little 'serfs' who never question authority (teachers) and only learn enough to be low-level employees. They will never invent anything on their on as the creativity has been beaten out of them. Diversity of ideas in the classroom is not tolerated, etc. Are you really defending the education system in Thailand? It's got nothing to do with arrogance as, objectively, the Western methods are far superior to Rote Learning. Duh!

I went to private schools in the USA till I got to college. Everything was rote learning till I got to college. In college I can only remember one course that was not rote learning. Whenever I did not agree with the instructor I flunked. When it was a question of the instructors opinion being correct or mine being correct; mine got me an F.

I even remember an advanced economics course that I paid for a lawyer to write an opinion. I was definitely right and the professor was wrong. Not only wrong but his opinion was not even legal. I still got an F. And the F was backed up by the dean of the department of Economics.

I have one child who is a pilot. She told me everything in flight school was by rote learning. They didn't want her opinion how to land or take of an airplane.

I went to public school (free, government sponsored schools, for you Brits) grades one through twelve. I went to a rural school until grade 10 when I had to transfer to the small town high school. Unless it was mathematics, grammar, or the sciences, from grade four onwards, we were encouraged to discuss the subject matter. The only teachers who weren't keen on discussion were those who weren't proficient in the subject they were teaching. Our class sizes were generally fewer than 30 students. When I went to university, I got more lectures because the class sizes were too large for any group discussion but by then, I had already learned to think critically and not accept that everything an authority figure told me was automatically correct. Because I read each classes' textbook through by the sixth week, I, sometimes, would challenge the teacher's knowledge base if I heard them giving their opinion instead of the facts. I got Bs and Cs for being a 'smart-ass' but I learned not to depend on a teacher for all my knowledge. I have continued my self-education to this day. I am sorry for you that you had such ignorant teachers who didn't know how to teach. The 'Fs' your received were, maybe, due to 'how' you disagreed. As for the lawyer thing, that is one incident and one teacher; hardly enought to judge an entire educations system. That little narrative does, however, display the lengths you will go to to be 'right', though. As for flight school, the physics of flight are non-debatable as are the operation of aircraft as per aircraft manufacturers' and FAA rules; not much to argue about there. A debate on something that serious may confuse other students and lead to disaster. Your daughter would be free, later and at her own peril, to experiment on alternative ways to take off and land an airplane. I know you will argue this because it is your nature to be always 'right'. I will leave you with a quote.

"The mediocre teacher tells,

the good teacher explains,

the superior teacher demonstrates,

the great teacher inspires"

William Arthur Ward

Edited June 13, 2014 by rametindallas

[thailiketoo]

I think it comes down to the kind of education discussed. I don't think Thailand needs any more marketing managers.

Thailand needs technicians at every level and technicians need rote education. Leave the Bill Gates types to America because they will flourish there.

[wow64]

Very good solution. Should make apps to fix everything.