Bodies of three missing teens found in West Bank - reports

[ClutchClark]

Edit

Edited July 1, 2014 by ClutchClark

[Ulysses G.]

First off, the term Palsestinian predates WWII, the first use of the term Palestiniian in a nationalist concept was in 1922

You should know better than to rely on Wikipedia. Anyone can alter it and it is very unreliable. What you wrote has little resemblance to actual history.

First of all, Palestine was a Jewish country that was originally called Judea, but the Romans changed the name in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel. The Arabic word "Filastin" is derived from the Latin name Palaestina. No independent Arab or Palestinian state has ever existed in Palestine.

Very few Palestinian Arabs ever owned land. It was owned by absentee landlords in the surrounding countries who sold the worst of it to Jews for inflated prices and then tried to steal it back after the Jews drained swamps, cleared water channels, reclaimed wasteland, forested bare hills, cleared rocks, removed salt from the soil and made the desert bloom.

You are also incorrect about everything being "peaceful" until 1948. There were more Jews in Jerusalem in 1850 than Arabs - although there were more Arabs in the whole territory - and the Arabs started attacking the Jews pretty seriously around 1920 - long before WW2. They continued until 1948 and long afterwards.

The Arabs started the hostilities in the first place, refused numerous offers for peace and their own nation and have lost every war since. They have been their own worst enemies.

"... nor can we forget that the hatred of the Arab politician for the [Jewish] National Home has never been concealed and that it has now permeated the Arab population as a whole." - Peel Commission, 1937

Edited July 1, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[bina]

i have to put in my two cents worth'

now published:the tape of the boy talking in to his cell phone: he says: im kidnapped. in the background shouts in arabic of " put your head down et., then shots, someone grunting in pain, then silence except for the emergency number/police (911 equivalent) where they keep trying to find out who is calling. and a radio in arabic on full volume.

the parents of the kids knew within a few days, but had hoped the boys were injured and not dead.

its absolutely horrible, everyone here is in a horrible mood, as these were kids, not even soldiers... for everyone talking, try to put yourself in their places or in our places, those of us here... it could have been my son or daughters, just as well...

not sure what will happen but for sure sabres are rattling...

[Diablo Bob]

First off, the term Palsestinian predates WWII, the first use of the term Palestiniian in a nationalist concept was in 1922

You should know better than to rely on Wikipedia. Anyone can alter it and it is very unreliable. What you wrote has little resemblance to actual history.

First of all, Palestine was a Jewish country that was originally called Judea, but the Romans changed the name in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel. The Arabic word "Filastin" is derived from the Latin name Palaestina. No independent Arab or Palestinian state has ever existed in Palestine.

Very few Palestinian Arabs ever owned land. It was owned by absentee landlords in the surrounding countries who sold the worst of it to Jews for inflated prices and then tried to steal it back after the Jews drained swamps, cleared water channels, reclaimed wasteland, forested bare hills, cleared rocks, removed salt from the soil and made the desert bloom.

You are also incorrect about everything being "peaceful" until 1948. There were more Jews in Jerusalem in 1850 than Arabs - although there were more Arabs in the whole territory - and the Arabs started attacking the Jews pretty seriously around 1920 - long before WW2. They continued until 1948 and long afterwards.

The Arabs started the hostilities in the first place, refused numerous offers for peace and their own nation and have lost every war since. They have been their own worst enemies.

"... nor can we forget that the hatred of the Arab politician for the [Jewish] National Home has never been concealed and that it has now permeated the Arab population as a whole." - Peel Commission, 1937

OK, let's not use Wikpedia, let's use Jews for Justice, and I quote:

“Between 3000 and 1100 B.C., Canaanite civilization covered what is today Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon and much of Syria and Jordan...Those who remained in the Jerusalem hills after the Romans expelled the Jews [in the second century A.D.] were a potpourri: farmers and vineyard growers, pagans and converts to Christianity, descendants of the Arabs, Persians, Samaritans, Greeks and old Canaanite tribes.” Marcia Kunstel and Joseph Albright, “Their Promised Land.”

Palestine was NOT a Jewish country.... there might ave been more Jews in Jerusalem than Arabs , but in Palestine:

..."Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than a huge Arab majority. For example, the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314.”

You're right about me being wrong about how peacefull Palestine was until 1948, I had never read about the Palestinian uprising in the 1930's.

[F4UCorsair]

........Hamas DENIED involvement........

Can't blame them for lying trying, but it won't help them in the end.

He who has the gold makes the rules......and the Israelis have the gold.

[simple1]

Yes. Some right wing parties calling for more of this as a "response" to the kidnapping and murder or the three.

Can't say I like the loonies on either side.

Loonies who defend themselves from barbarians. i suppose the Spaniards who kicked them out after few hundred years awere also loonies.

On the other hand, the "loony-ised" Britain will go under.

Off topic, but interesting

Muslims held onto Spanish terrirtory for a lot more than a few hundred years. At the time, after the Muslims were evicted, the Spanish economy went into decline due to loss of skills / knowledge for a considerable period of time; so not "barbarians". However, a sidenote, the Spanish government is in the process of passing legislation for the right of return for the Jewish decendents of the Jews who were evicted from Spain 500 hundred years ago. I wonder how the current Spanish population will accept this if passed into law.

Spanish government, would "correct a historical wrong". The legislation has yet to be approved by parliament, but already consulates in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem said they have been flooded with requests for information. Up to 3.5 million people around the world are thought to have Sephardic – Hebrew for "Spanish" – Jewish ancestry. Now the descendants of another group who figured prominently in Spain's colourful past – before also being expelled – say it's only fair that the same right of return be extended to them.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/24/spain-sephardic-jews-islam-muslim

[simple1]

First off, the term Palsestinian predates WWII, the first use of the term Palestiniian in a nationalist concept was in 1922

You should know better than to rely on Wikipedia. Anyone can alter it and it is very unreliable. What you wrote has little resemblance to actual history.

First of all, Palestine was a Jewish country that was originally called Judea, but the Romans changed the name in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel. The Arabic word "Filastin" is derived from the Latin name Palaestina. No independent Arab or Palestinian state has ever existed in Palestine.

Very few Palestinian Arabs ever owned land. It was owned by absentee landlords in the surrounding countries who sold the worst of it to Jews for inflated prices and then tried to steal it back after the Jews drained swamps, cleared water channels, reclaimed wasteland, forested bare hills, cleared rocks, removed salt from the soil and made the desert bloom.

You are also incorrect about everything being "peaceful" until 1948. There were more Jews in Jerusalem in 1850 than Arabs - although there were more Arabs in the whole territory - and the Arabs started attacking the Jews pretty seriously around 1920 - long before WW2. They continued until 1948 and long afterwards.

The Arabs started the hostilities in the first place, refused numerous offers for peace and their own nation and have lost every war since. They have been their own worst enemies.

"... nor can we forget that the hatred of the Arab politician for the [Jewish] National Home has never been concealed and that it has now permeated the Arab population as a whole." - Peel Commission, 1937

OK, let's not use Wikpedia, let's use Jews for Justice, and I quote:

“Between 3000 and 1100 B.C., Canaanite civilization covered what is today Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon and much of Syria and Jordan...Those who remained in the Jerusalem hills after the Romans expelled the Jews [in the second century A.D.] were a potpourri: farmers and vineyard growers, pagans and converts to Christianity, descendants of the Arabs, Persians, Samaritans, Greeks and old Canaanite tribes.” Marcia Kunstel and Joseph Albright, “Their Promised Land.”

Palestine was NOT a Jewish country.... there might ave been more Jews in Jerusalem than Arabs , but in Palestine:

..."Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than a huge Arab majority. For example, the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314.”

You're right about me being wrong about how peacefull Palestine was until 1948, I had never read about the Palestinian uprising in the 1930's.

Plus it was always the intention by the Zionists to remove the existing indigenous population. A quote from Ben-Gurion in a letter to his son "we must expel the Arabs and take their place". Another example from many; Joseph Weitz, Director of the Land and Afforestation Department of the Jewish National Fund, in 1940 "Not one village, not one tribe should be left. And the form of transfer needs to be the creation of a refugee for them in Iraq, in Syria and in Transjordan...There is no other way out"

With posters who are so knowedgeable, I question why they consistently ignore the documented policy, that is now in the public domain, of Jewish leaders of the time who made it very clear in their private communicatiions of their objective to force out the local population by one means or another.

Edited July 1, 2014 by simple1

[Ulysses G.]

First off, the term Palsestinian predates WWII, the first use of the term Palestiniian in a nationalist concept was in 1922

You should know better than to rely on Wikipedia. Anyone can alter it and it is very unreliable. What you wrote has little resemblance to actual history.

First of all, Palestine was a Jewish country that was originally called Judea, but the Romans changed the name in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel. The Arabic word "Filastin" is derived from the Latin name Palaestina. No independent Arab or Palestinian state has ever existed in Palestine.

Very few Palestinian Arabs ever owned land. It was owned by absentee landlords in the surrounding countries who sold the worst of it to Jews for inflated prices and then tried to steal it back after the Jews drained swamps, cleared water channels, reclaimed wasteland, forested bare hills, cleared rocks, removed salt from the soil and made the desert bloom.

You are also incorrect about everything being "peaceful" until 1948. There were more Jews in Jerusalem in 1850 than Arabs - although there were more Arabs in the whole territory - and the Arabs started attacking the Jews pretty seriously around 1920 - long before WW2. They continued until 1948 and long afterwards.

The Arabs started the hostilities in the first place, refused numerous offers for peace and their own nation and have lost every war since. They have been their own worst enemies.

"... nor can we forget that the hatred of the Arab politician for the [Jewish] National Home has never been concealed and that it has now permeated the Arab population as a whole." - Peel Commission, 1937

OK, let's not use Wikpedia, let's use Jews for Justice, and I quote:

Between 3000 and 1100 B.C., Canaanite civilization covered what is today Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon and much of Syria and Jordan...Those who remained in the Jerusalem hills after the Romans expelled the Jews [in the second century A.D.] were a potpourri: farmers and vineyard growers, pagans and converts to Christianity, descendants of the Arabs, Persians, Samaritans, Greeks and old Canaanite tribes. Marcia Kunstel and Joseph Albright, Their Promised Land.

Palestine was NOT a Jewish country.... there might ave been more Jews in Jerusalem than Arabs , but in Palestine:

..."Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than a huge Arab majority. For example, the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314.

You're right about me being wrong about how peacefull Palestine was until 1948, I had never read about the Palestinian uprising in the 1930's.

Do you have a point? Your quote says the exact same thing as I did. Palestine WAS a Jewish country until the Romans drove most of them out, but there has always been a Jewish presence ever since. After that it became Christian - not Muslim - for many centuries. However, I already said that there were more Arabs in the area known as Palestine, than Jews, until Israel was founded. That did not give the Arabs the right to slaughter them all, which is what they tried to do, until the Jews started fighting back, kicked their butts and won every war - which the Arabs started - since.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

Sorry to hear about this...Other excuse for Israeli terrorists to destroy Palestinian life's and property. Hope to see the day Palestinians live free in their own country.

Whats left of their own country!

They never - ever - had their own country, but they could have if they had accepted the UN solution and not declared war on the people who did.

When was any Arab Palestine founded and by whom?

What were its borders?

What was its capital?

What were its major cities?

Who was the Palestinian leader before Yasser Arafat?

Kidnapping innocent teenagers and murdering them is not going to help them get their own country any faster.

Only an American could write that crap -

Let me guess -

You're an American?

Yes, an American that actually knows the history of the area - seemingly unlike you. Why don't you try answering those questions in a way that does not prove conclusively that there has NEVER - ever - been an Arab country called Palestine?

[ClutchClark]

First off, the term Palsestinian predates WWII, the first use of the term Palestiniian in a nationalist concept was in 1922

You should know better than to rely on Wikipedia. Anyone can alter it and it is very unreliable. What you wrote has little resemblance to actual history.

First of all, Palestine was a Jewish country that was originally called Judea, but the Romans changed the name in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel. The Arabic word "Filastin" is derived from the Latin name Palaestina. No independent Arab or Palestinian state has ever existed in Palestine.

Very few Palestinian Arabs ever owned land. It was owned by absentee landlords in the surrounding countries who sold the worst of it to Jews for inflated prices and then tried to steal it back after the Jews drained swamps, cleared water channels, reclaimed wasteland, forested bare hills, cleared rocks, removed salt from the soil and made the desert bloom.

You are also incorrect about everything being "peaceful" until 1948. There were more Jews in Jerusalem in 1850 than Arabs - although there were more Arabs in the whole territory - and the Arabs started attacking the Jews pretty seriously around 1920 - long before WW2. They continued until 1948 and long afterwards.

The Arabs started the hostilities in the first place, refused numerous offers for peace and their own nation and have lost every war since. They have been their own worst enemies.

"... nor can we forget that the hatred of the Arab politician for the [Jewish] National Home has never been concealed and that it has now permeated the Arab population as a whole." - Peel Commission, 1937

OK, let's not use Wikpedia, let's use Jews for Justice, and I quote:

Between 3000 and 1100 B.C., Canaanite civilization covered what is today Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon and much of Syria and Jordan...Those who remained in the Jerusalem hills after the Romans expelled the Jews [in the second century A.D.] were a potpourri: farmers and vineyard growers, pagans and converts to Christianity, descendants of the Arabs, Persians, Samaritans, Greeks and old Canaanite tribes. Marcia Kunstel and Joseph Albright, Their Promised Land.

Palestine was NOT a Jewish country.... there might ave been more Jews in Jerusalem than Arabs , but in Palestine:

..."Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than a huge Arab majority. For example, the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314.

You're right about me being wrong about how peacefull Palestine was until 1948, I had never read about the Palestinian uprising in the 1930's.

Diablo Bob,

Good summary.

Thanks for the insight.

[Ulysses G.]

With posters who are so knowedgeable, I question why they consistently ignore the documented policy, that is now in the public domain, of Jewish leaders of the time who made it very clear in their private communicatiions of their objective to force out the local population by one means or another.

Maybe because you are being very selective and very dishonest about your quotes. The reason that 20% of Israel is Arab is because they were asked to stay and become good citizens - face the facts. Here is what the Founding Father of Israel had to say.

We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs.

Even amidst the violent attacks launched against us for months past, we call upon the sons of the Arab people dwelling in Israel to keep the peace and to play their part in building the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its institutions, provisional and permanent.

-David Ben-Gurion

More information:

http://marthiemombergblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/cape-times-article-by-israeli-ambassador.pdf

Edited July 2, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Diablo Bob]

With posters who are so knowedgeable, I question why they consistently ignore the documented policy, that is now in the public domain, of Jewish leaders of the time who made it very clear in their private communicatiions of their objective to force out the local population by one means or another.

Maybe because you are being very selective and very dishonest about your quotes. The reason that 20% of Israel is Arab is because they were asked to stay and become good citizens - face the facts. Here is what the Founding Father of Israel had to say.

We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs.

Even amidst the violent attacks launched against us for months past, we call upon the sons of the Arab people dwelling in Israel to keep the peace and to play their part in building the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its institutions, provisional and permanent.

-David Ben-Gurion

More information:

http://marthiemombergblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/cape-times-article-by-israeli-ambassador.pdf

Are we talking about the same David Ben-Gurion?

"Publicly they all continued to speak of coexistence and to attribute the violence to a small minority of zealots and agitators. But this was merely a public pose..Ben Gurion summed up: ‘With compulsory transfer we (would) have a vast area (for settlement)...I support compulsory transfer. I don’t see anything immoral in it,’” Israel historian, Benny Morris, “Righteous Victims.”

AND

“Ben-Gurion clearly wanted as few Arabs as possible to remain in the Jewish state. He hoped to see them flee. He said as much to his colleagues and aides in meetings in August, September and October [1948]. But no [general] expulsion policy was ever enunciated and Ben-Gurion always refrained from issuing clear or written expulsion orders; he preferred that his generals ‘understand’ what he wanted done. He wished to avoid going down in history as the ‘great expeller’ and he did not want the Israeli government to be implicated in a morally questionable policy...But while there was no ‘expulsion policy’, the July and October [1948] offensives were characterized by far more expulsions and, indeed, brutality towards Arab civilians than the first half of the war.” Benny Morris, “The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949”

Just asking?

[Ulysses G.]

Nonsense. Conspiracy theory stuff, although of course he wanted the enemy to leave. If he wanted to get rid of the solid citizens, how do you explain the fact that 20% of the country are Palestinian Arabs with the same rights as Jewish citizens? Israel beat the Arabs overwhelmingly over and over again and if they wanted to drive all the Arabs out, they would be long gone.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[Diablo Bob]

Nonsense. Conspiracy theory stuff. If he wanted to get rid of them, how do you explain the fact that 20% of the country are Palestinian Arabs with the same rights as Jewish citizens? Israel beat the Arabs overwhelmingly over and over again and if they wanted to drive all the Arabs out, they would be long gone.

Another quote from your friend Ben.....

“Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs, We come from Israel, it’s true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?” David Ben-Gurion, quoted in “The Jewish Paradox” by Nathan Goldman, former president of the World Jewish Congress.

Conspiracy theory....... yea, right, these are ALL Jewish authors, many from Israel, most well known. We really aren't talking about the Arabs in Israel are we, we are talking about Palestine, not the same and they don't have the same rights as the Arabs in Israel.

[Ulysses G.]

With posters who are so knowedgeable, I question why they consistently ignore the documented policy, that is now in the public domain, of Jewish leaders of the time who made it very clear in their private communicatiions of their objective to force out the local population by one means or another.

Yes, we ARE talking about Arabs in Israel. Don't you even read the posts that you are replying to (above)? Neither you or simple1 can explain why - if everyone was out to get rid of them - 20% of the population of Israel are Arabs with the same rights as everyone else, as well as students and teachers in the Universities and an Arab on the Supreme Court. That doesn't make any sense.

Do you think that all Jews think alike? If so, you don't know much about them. They are a million different opinions about Israel and everything else, so quoting a "Jew" - often out of context - proves pretty much nothing.

By the way, simple on used a FAKE QUOTE attributed to David Ben-Gurion earlier. The real quote was the one that I posted where he said that he DID NOT want to force the Arabs to leave.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[simple1]

With posters who are so knowedgeable, I question why they consistently ignore the documented policy, that is now in the public domain, of Jewish leaders of the time who made it very clear in their private communicatiions of their objective to force out the local population by one means or another.

Maybe because you are being very selective and very dishonest about your quotes. The reason that 20% of Israel is Arab is because they were asked to stay and become good citizens - face the facts. Here is what the Founding Father of Israel had to say.

We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs.

Even amidst the violent attacks launched against us for months past, we call upon the sons of the Arab people dwelling in Israel to keep the peace and to play their part in building the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its institutions, provisional and permanent.

-David Ben-Gurion

More information:

http://marthiemombergblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/cape-times-article-by-israeli-ambassador.pdf

Not being dishonest, actual quotes made in private, now accessable to reseachers in document archeives, that contradict statements made in public communications at the time.

There were & are wrongs committed by both sides, To keep on that the Palestinian Arabs should, in the 20th and 21st centuries accept the Jewish imposed status quo is a very one sided narrative. The Jewish community, for hundreds of years had the dream of Eretz Yisrael; that was not acceptance of their status quo.

The following is a link to other detailed statements made by Ben-Gurion that underline his position, that I guess was reflective of some other Jewish leaders views at that time. e.g. What we really want is not that the land remain whole and unified. What we want is that the whole and unified land be Jewish [bG emphasis]. A unified Eretz Israeli would be no source of satisfaction for me– if it were Arab.

http://www.richardsilverstein.com/2013/12/28/ben-gurion-foresaw-palestinian-expulsion-in-1937/

Edited July 2, 2014 by simple1

[Diablo Bob]

With posters who are so knowedgeable, I question why they consistently ignore the documented policy, that is now in the public domain, of Jewish leaders of the time who made it very clear in their private communicatiions of their objective to force out the local population by one means or another.

Yes, we ARE talking about Arabs in Israel. Don't you even read the posts that you are replying to (above)? Neither you or simple1 can explain why - if everyone was out to get rid of them - 20% of the population of Israel are Arabs with the same rights as everyone else, as well as students and teachers in the Universities and an Arab on the Supreme Court. That doesn't make any sense.

By the way, simple on used a FAKE QUOTE attributed to David Ben-Gurion earlier. The real quote was the one that I posted where he said that he DID NOT want to force the Arabs to leave.

You might be talking about Israeli Arabs but the fact remains that these poor boys were murdered in Palestine by Palestinian Arabs. My stand is that their murder is trajic, but if Israel had honestly dealt with the Arabs from day 1 of their occupation, this might have been prevented. From day 1 the Zionist goal was the elimination of the Arabs in the occupied territory. FACT

The Israeli methods have been brutal and has done nothing but create more terrorist who only dream of their destruction. FACT

You can white wash it anyway you want Ulysses, but you can't change history.

[boomerangutang]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

They look like they were decent kids, no doubt anger and emotions are running high, but in my country we hold trials and allow the accused and the prosecution to present evidence. If the evidence is sufficient to warrant a conviction then, and only then, do we exact punishment on the guilty party.

That is what we call "The rule of law".

We don't retaliate through sanctioned military force against anyone loosely affiliated with the accused.

That is not justice.

My sympathies to the boys families.

Rule of law is fine where it can reasonably be applied. If IDF caught the suspects, brought them to Israel to be tried - the suspects would become martyrs and/or 'cause celebre' for most Palestinians. If the suspects were jailed, then it would inspire radical Palestinians to kidnap Israelis - to use as trade. Rule of thumb; 1 Israeli captive = 20 to 200 Palestinian captives.

[Ulysses G.]

Not being dishonest, actual quotes made in private

Yes, dishonest or you actually believe the lies that you read on the Internet. You mean "actual quotes" like THIS one:

A quote from Ben-Gurion in a letter to his son "we must expel the Arabs and take their place".

The actual quote:

We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs.

Letter to his son Amos (5 October 1937), as quoted in Teveth, Shabtai, Ben Gurion: The Burning Ground; and Karsh, Efraim (2000), Fabricating Israeli History: The 'New Historians'; this has been extensively misquoted as "[We] must expel Arabs and take their places" after appearing in this form in Morris, Benny (1987), The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947–1949, Cambridge University Press, p. 25.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/David_Ben-Gurion

[Ulysses G.]

The Israeli methods have been brutal and has done nothing but create more terrorist who only dream of their destruction. FACT

You can white wash it anyway you want Ulysses, but you can't change history.

FACT: The Israeli methods have been no more brutal than their enemies - but you want to overlook that.

FACT: Israel is still there and thriving. The Palestinians are only DREAMING of their destruction. They have only been DREAMING about getting rid of the Jews for more than 100 years and are no closer than they were then. In fact they are worse off. They are stateless due to their own efforts and the Jews have their own country.

I am not the one trying to change history. You are.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Ulysses G.

[ClutchClark]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

They look like they were decent kids, no doubt anger and emotions are running high, but in my country we hold trials and allow the accused and the prosecution to present evidence. If the evidence is sufficient to warrant a conviction then, and only then, do we exact punishment on the guilty party.

That is what we call "The rule of law".

We don't retaliate through sanctioned military force against anyone loosely affiliated with the accused.

That is not justice.

My sympathies to the boys families.

Rule of law is fine where it can reasonably be applied. If IDF caught the suspects, brought them to Israel to be tried - the suspects would become martyrs and/or 'cause celebre' for most Palestinians. If the suspects were jailed, then it would inspire radical Palestinians to kidnap Israelis - to use as trade. Rule of thumb; 1 Israeli captive = 20 to 200 Palestinian captives.

I hear what you are saying.

I wonder why they chose to shoot these young men rather than ransom them back for prisoner release...maybe their killers realized the three young men were just "too hot" and would bring too many IDF.

Cheers

[ClutchClark]

Double

Edited July 2, 2014 by ClutchClark

[Emster23]

...

The Apartheid and Nazi references, although popular, do not necessarily amount to a correct reflection of things. While they do

make for catchy headlines and slogans, they are still hyperbole.

...

Indeed. You put that too diplomatically though, I think. Accusing Jews of being Nazis is part of a well known CODE.

What I am referring to is practice of punishing whole communities for actions of a few that may be from that community. If they had all those arrests, shouldn't they be able to find the culprits? Sorry to say the kidnapping achieved it's goals of making it even less likely two sides can talk to each other. There are plenty in Palestine and Israel who don't want to see that happen. Here's a dream: Hamas says sorry it happened under our watch, and we will help catch criminals. Israel says will treat this as a crime, and apologize for killing 10 Palestinians for every Israels and will no longer use those draconian tactics.

[Morch]

........Hamas DENIED involvement........

Can't blame them for lying trying, but it won't help them in the end.

He who has the gold makes the rules......and the Israelis have the gold.

Interesting.

Apart from times when stories such as this make the headlines, most Israeli media and public opinion is occupied with

economic problems, social inequality, and crime. Probably like most other places in the world. Seems like no one told

the people down there they got gold.

Saudi Arabia, the Gulf nations, and Iran on the other hand...Oh, wait, that doesn't fit your prejudice. Scrap it.

[Steely Dan]

With posters who are so knowedgeable, I question why they consistently ignore the documented policy, that is now in the public domain, of Jewish leaders of the time who made it very clear in their private communicatiions of their objective to force out the local population by one means or another.

Maybe because you are being very selective and very dishonest about your quotes. The reason that 20% of Israel is Arab is because they were asked to stay and become good citizens - face the facts. Here is what the Founding Father of Israel had to say.

We do not wish, we do not need to expel the Arabs and take their place. All our aspirations are built upon the assumption — proven throughout all our activity in the Land — that there is enough room in the country for ourselves and the Arabs.

Even amidst the violent attacks launched against us for months past, we call upon the sons of the Arab people dwelling in Israel to keep the peace and to play their part in building the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its institutions, provisional and permanent.

-David Ben-Gurion

More information:

http://marthiemombergblog.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/cape-times-article-by-israeli-ambassador.pdf

And equal rights they indeed have, rights far in excess of those granted to so called Palestinians living in Lebanon, Syria, Jordan or Egypt. But you never hear of those Countries being accused of running an apartheid state, a fact the Coptic Christians of Egypt May have something to say about.

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[Morch]

Nonsense. Conspiracy theory stuff. If he wanted to get rid of them, how do you explain the fact that 20% of the country are Palestinian Arabs with the same rights as Jewish citizens? Israel beat the Arabs overwhelmingly over and over again and if they wanted to drive all the Arabs out, they would be long gone.

Another quote from your friend Ben.....

“Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs, We come from Israel, it’s true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?” David Ben-Gurion, quoted in “The Jewish Paradox” by Nathan Goldman, former president of the World Jewish Congress.

Conspiracy theory....... yea, right, these are ALL Jewish authors, many from Israel, most well known. We really aren't talking about the Arabs in Israel are we, we are talking about Palestine, not the same and they don't have the same rights as the Arabs in Israel.

If I may interject on this interesting, though off-topic discussion:

The question of sources, interpretations and bias is an open one, sometimes interesting enough by itself to rival the details.

Without getting overly involved, may I suggest that arguments referring to the nationality/religion/ethnicity of authors is more

complicated than simply stating the obvious. For a more details review, read here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Historians

This is a good stepping stone (albeit a very short version, checking out link to historians mentioned would provide a better

picture) for anyone interested in learning a little more about these debates. Interesting to note that some of the historians

relevant to the discussion have revised their view, to a degree, over the years. So sometimes (perhaps Benny Morris is

a good example of this) could seem to be contradictory. Add to the fray some authors with well documented biases in

general (Norman Finkelstein comes to mind) and the personal rivalry between some of them - more muddled than it seems.

As for Ben Gurion - there's a saying BG used to document every flitting thought that crossed his mind. As in what I mentioned

above - worthwhile to note when a certain quote was made, and in which context. There could certainly be conflicting ideas in

his writing and opinions, this is nothing new. He was also known for being a pragmatist on some things, and stone hard on

others - quite an interesting man, if not easy to understand.

On a personal level, I think most of this discussion (which replicates itself in Israeli/Palestinian talks) does not promote the

chances of anything ever being resolved. Less "who started it" and more "how to end it" - this what the region needs.

[Morch]

This was the act of a psychopath(s) - psychopaths cannot be allowed to run the agenda.

The problem is that psychopaths run at least half of the Palestinian government and Israel is pretty sure that they were behind the kidnappings.

Eye for an eye advocates are in presence on both sides.

Some even say that eye for an eye is sissy, and that eyes should be poked preemptively.

Crazies everywhere.

...but the more crazy have a better chance of victory in this f-up region.

..and what is your proposal anyway....forgive and forget?

Arabs see this a a sign of weakness.

That is indeed a view often advocated by right wing Israeli politicians.

To an extent, it is true - the Middle East is jungle (deserts and sands aside), a bad neighborhood, and survival means being

smart and/or a badass. The thing is that sometimes this turns to be a goal by itself, making the badass to smart ratio getting

messed up.

There's quite a range of choices between "eye for an eye" and "forgive and forget". I advocate neither, each seems a limited

answer. Too many leaders on both sides calling out for blood, revenge and poking eyes. The upshot of this is that the bar

keeps getting raised.

[Morch]

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They look like they were decent kids, no doubt anger and emotions are running high, but in my country we hold trials and allow the accused and the prosecution to present evidence. If the evidence is sufficient to warrant a conviction then, and only then, do we exact punishment on the guilty party.

That is what we call "The rule of law".

We don't retaliate through sanctioned military force against anyone loosely affiliated with the accused.

That is not justice.

My sympathies to the boys families.

Rule of law is fine where it can reasonably be applied. If IDF caught the suspects, brought them to Israel to be tried - the suspects would become martyrs and/or 'cause celebre' for most Palestinians. If the suspects were jailed, then it would inspire radical Palestinians to kidnap Israelis - to use as trade. Rule of thumb; 1 Israeli captive = 20 to 200 Palestinian captives.

When (not even "if") suspects are caught, they will be brought before a judge (not sure if this will be civilian or military court,

there are some legal factors to this), and get a trial. No death penalty in Israel for these things so probably looking at a long

prison time.

There is enough motivation from the Palestinian side to carry out kidnapping attempts, there are quite often concrete warning

about this in Israeli media. Most do not come to be a threat, either too tricky to carry out or intercepted by Israeli security forces.

[simple1]

Nonsense. Conspiracy theory stuff. If he wanted to get rid of them, how do you explain the fact that 20% of the country are Palestinian Arabs with the same rights as Jewish citizens? Israel beat the Arabs overwhelmingly over and over again and if they wanted to drive all the Arabs out, they would be long gone.

Another quote from your friend Ben.....

“Why should the Arabs make peace? If I was an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs, We come from Israel, it’s true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we came here and stole their country. Why should they accept that?” David Ben-Gurion, quoted in “The Jewish Paradox” by Nathan Goldman, former president of the World Jewish Congress.

Conspiracy theory....... yea, right, these are ALL Jewish authors, many from Israel, most well known. We really aren't talking about the Arabs in Israel are we, we are talking about Palestine, not the same and they don't have the same rights as the Arabs in Israel.

If I may interject on this interesting, though off-topic discussion:

The question of sources, interpretations and bias is an open one, sometimes interesting enough by itself to rival the details.

Without getting overly involved, may I suggest that arguments referring to the nationality/religion/ethnicity of authors is more

complicated than simply stating the obvious. For a more details review, read here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Historians

This is a good stepping stone (albeit a very short version, checking out link to historians mentioned would provide a better

picture) for anyone interested in learning a little more about these debates. Interesting to note that some of the historians

relevant to the discussion have revised their view, to a degree, over the years. So sometimes (perhaps Benny Morris is

a good example of this) could seem to be contradictory. Add to the fray some authors with well documented biases in

general (Norman Finkelstein comes to mind) and the personal rivalry between some of them - more muddled than it seems.

As for Ben Gurion - there's a saying BG used to document every flitting thought that crossed his mind. As in what I mentioned

above - worthwhile to note when a certain quote was made, and in which context. There could certainly be conflicting ideas in

his writing and opinions, this is nothing new. He was also known for being a pragmatist on some things, and stone hard on

others - quite an interesting man, if not easy to understand.

On a personal level, I think most of this discussion (which replicates itself in Israeli/Palestinian talks) does not promote the

chances of anything ever being resolved. Less "who started it" and more "how to end it" - this what the region needs.

Very true, but it's an interesting discussion. Hopefully the Mods will permit the ongoing conversations as so far relatively curteous.

Terribly tragic for the murdered teenagers, their families and friends. As someone highlighted equally so for those on the other side of the divide for the innocents who have been killed.

Edited July 2, 2014 by simple1

[Morch]

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They look like they were decent kids, no doubt anger and emotions are running high, but in my country we hold trials and allow the accused and the prosecution to present evidence. If the evidence is sufficient to warrant a conviction then, and only then, do we exact punishment on the guilty party.

That is what we call "The rule of law".

We don't retaliate through sanctioned military force against anyone loosely affiliated with the accused.

That is not justice.

My sympathies to the boys families.

Rule of law is fine where it can reasonably be applied. If IDF caught the suspects, brought them to Israel to be tried - the suspects would become martyrs and/or 'cause celebre' for most Palestinians. If the suspects were jailed, then it would inspire radical Palestinians to kidnap Israelis - to use as trade. Rule of thumb; 1 Israeli captive = 20 to 200 Palestinian captives.

I hear what you are saying.

I wonder why they chose to shoot these young men rather than ransom them back for prisoner release...maybe their killers realized the three young men were just "too hot" and would bring too many IDF.

Cheers

Information released from the investigation suggests that things didn't go according to plan. One of the three managed to

call the police (as in 911 - there's a recording of the call), and was shot in the car during the conversation. Unclear yet, I

think, if the other two were shot there and then or later. The bodies were hidden and the car was dumped and burned, both

suspects going into hiding.

The police emergency call center (and the police in general) are under a lot of public criticism for not taking the call seriously,

and for disregarding initial reports by families about the missing sons.