Palm Oil Trees In Issan

[teletiger]

1 hectare (about 6-7rai) will give you about 400kg of biodiesel per year or about 6-7 tankfuls for the average pickup (and that is with everything working just right based on around 4kg of seed to 1kg of biodiesel).

Tim

Adding the residue in with the cattle feed, as a high protien source, would add to the economics of it.

Regards

[Maizefarmer]

Actuall TT I considered that - but look at the figures - even using the residue as a fodder (which is actually not to bad for what it is - although the plant yield and residue is not much), it still does not make any sense.

1rai will produce roughly 60 litres bio-diesel per year.

What does diesel cost now? - about Baht27 p/litre.

So "growing" biodiesel, even if it was worth normal diesel (which it is not and that's the whole objective) would earn you Baht 1620 per rai per year or Baht 135 per month.

I just can't see the economics in it - even if it was worth 5 or 10 times that it still doesn't earn you much per rai per month.

And that too is not its real worth - its real worth is actually the differance between the normal price of diesel and what this stuff costs to grow - so suddenly your theoretical Baht135 per month per rai becomes becomes something around Baht 100 per month!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll earn 10 times more growing hay.

It's an absolute complete no brainer.

PS - the figures I am using are quoted from an IMO publication - someone please tell me I have got my math wrong.

Tim

1 hectare (about 6-7rai) will give you about 400kg of biodiesel per year or about 6-7 tankfuls for the average pickup (and that is with everything working just right based on around 4kg of seed to 1kg of biodiesel).

Tim

Adding the residue in with the cattle feed, as a high protien source, would add to the economics of it.

Regards

Edited September 19, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[udon]

IMO publication??

I guess millions of farmers and their gov'ts are wasting their time & money on jc?

I don't mean to be sarcastic.

[timber]

Udon has a point there. There are a few million hectares being groomed for jathropha. My sources indicate that Jathropha will produce about 1890 litres per hectare. Which I think would be about 300 litres per rai. there are a lot of variable with growing anything so depends on the site and management. I still think you can have jathropha hedges and still grow other crops to get the best of both worlds and have more sustained production and work for the employees or farmers.

[chownah]

IMO publication??

I guess millions of farmers and their gov'ts are wasting their time & money on jc?

I don't mean to be sarcastic.

You might be right on this....only time will tell. People originally thought that making alcohol as a fuel was a ridiculous idea but it has become mainstream in the US. All of this focus might produce research that could improve the cost/benefit ratio considerably....new varieties might be discovered and new cultivation techniques or uses for the by-products might be developed. Unless something like this happens then it doesn't look so good now. Timber's numbers are quite different from MaizeFarmer's numbers.....it would be great if they could provide their sources and calculations so we could get a better idea of how it might work...or not work.

Chownah

[Maizefarmer]

From:

http://www.checkbiotech.org/blocks/dsp_doc...fm?doc_id=10129

- and I’ll add at this point, for as many different articals one can find, you can find different figures – this article however seems to be a good middle of the road set of figures

“In the tests in the Northeast, the average total revenue per hectare for farmers was around 67,000 baht from growing 416 kg a year - 12,727 kg, or two million baht in 30 years. Estimated biodiesel production per hectare was about 3,000 litres over the same 30 years”

Baht67K for 416kg – that has to be end product (i.e. 4kg seed pod produces around 1litre biodiesel)

I hectare = about 6.5 rai, therefore 67/6.5 = Baht10300 p/year per rai or Baht 860 per/month (mmm… still tight, but I can see it appealing to some folk whose land aint much good for anything else).

Same article goes on to say:

“D1 says it can refine up to five million litres of Jatropha oil per year from plantations totalling 31,205 rai. It takes four kilogrammes of Jatropha seeds to refine into one litre of oil.”

Baht 2 000 0000 over 30years per hectare, which – do your math, comes back to roughly Baht 860 p/rai per month.

Yes – it would appear I got my figures wrong - which doesn’t suprize me, those figures were really too low to be credible or make sense.

Now thats still tight, the average veggie farmer will get more than Baht 860 per month per rai - but I can see it starting to make sense on a large scale where the inputs for other crops on a large scale would simply push the scale of economies beyound a breakeven point. Still, no -- not for me - it still equates to your 1 rai producing the equivilant to buy less than a tank of diesel per month for the average pickup.

But 1890 litres per hectare – hel_l, Chownah – that would equate to over Baht 3k per month per rai !!!! – now, that is VERY VERY attractive by any standard. Not been sarcastic, not challenging – but that figure puts this crop into "super crop" catergories if that is a possible 50 rai would wipe out my fuel bill (and a bit).

Tim

Edited September 20, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[timber]

Ascending order

Crop kg oil/ha litres oil/ha lbs oil/acre US gal/acre

corn (maize) 145 172 129 18

cashew nut 148 176 132 19

oats 183 217 163 23

lupine 195 232 175 25

kenaf 230 273 205 29

calendula 256 305 229 33

cotton 273 325 244 35

hemp 305 363 272 39

soybean 375 446 335 48

coffee 386 59 345 49

linseed (flax) 402 478 359 51

hazelnuts 405 482 362 51

euphorbia 440 524 393 56

pumpkin seed 449 534 401 57

coriander 450 536 402 57

mustard seed 481 572 430 61

camelina 490 583 438 62

sesame 585 696 522 74

safflower 655 779 585 83

rice 696 828 622 88

tung oil tree 790 940 705 100

sunflowers 800 952 714 102

cocoa (cacao) 863 1026 771 110

peanuts 890 1059 795 113

opium poppy 978 1163 873 124

rapeseed 1000 1190 893 127

olives 1019 1212 910 129

castor beans 1188 1413 1061 151

pecan nuts 1505 1791 1344 191

jojoba 1528 1818 1365 194

jatropha 1590 1892 1420 202

macadamia nuts 1887 2246 1685 240

brazil nuts 2010 2392 1795 255

avocado 2217 2638 1980 282

coconut 2260 2689 2018 287

oil palm 5000 5950 4465 635

[Maizefarmer]

Wow - and the source of those figures? - because they contrast rather sharply with other figures and suggest a much high production rate than what I was reading from certain reports.

Also, it would appear that there are other crops that produce much more - but of course the question is (and that is not defined with the above figures) is what are the "inputs" to achieve those quantities - may well find the nett return is lower.

Some one needs to clarify all this for us - which is the best crop to use, what will it produce, what will it cost to produce.

On one of the videos I looked at (that were attached to an earlier posting) the cost per gallon in the USA was about 70cents to produce biodiesel - versus about $1.99 p/gallon to buy petro-desiel at the pump - that of course was using old vegatable oil from resturants. No reason why the same can't be done in Thailand - and we use a ton of the stuff in Thailand to cook with - which usually gets poured down the drain!

Tim

[timber]

Research varies but Jathropha gets about one/third the production of oil palm in most studies athough in the NE may do better because of the problems with growing Oil Palm. Can always do better just a matter of time, money and efford.

[Maizefarmer]

Research varies but Jathropha gets about one/third the production of oil palm in most studies athough in the NE may do better because of the problems with growing Oil Palm. Can always do better just a matter of time, money and efford.

What are the problems with growing palm oil in the NE??

[Maizefarmer]

Poorfarmer - share some realistic figures with us based on your experiance and research.

My problem with this is the theory versus the practise - and in farnming you quickly learn there is a big differance to what the articals say and what you actually land up doing to achivee the results.

Lannerbirth is growing some trees in the Chang Mai/Rai region - and the first thing he says is that he is not convinced that the costs of production are much less than what diesel costs to buy at a pertrol/gas station.

That is my concern - however I look at the figures, the indication is that there is little to no benefit or saving - against the background of diesel costs in Thailand - unless some of the figures given in postsings are correct, suggesting 1800 odd litres per hectare per year!

1) how much biodiesel can be realisticaly produced from 1rai or 1hectare of Jatropha crop per year in Thailand.

2) What would the production costs be to produce whatever that quanity is? (ignore the cost of planting)?

3) what saving would 1 rai and 1 hectare give you over buying commercial petro-diesel?

4) and lastly, if 1 rai or 1 hectare does not make econmic sense, how many rai or hectare do you need to grow before it makes economic sense to produce?

Thanks Tim

Jatropha Curcas......"Saboo Dam"

Yes on my research with friends at Kasetsart University ,Kampengsean campus. We run biodiesel from Jatropha Curcas in a small refinery. And more than 2000 rai plantation of this plant on site experimenting at Kampensean. If u wanna know technology of separation and washing of biodesel under Thai energy standards(base on USA std.) Can contract biodiesel centre at ku. kampengsean campus.

In issan area, the soil type is sandylome and less in soil fertilzer, then palm oil is ok for growing there but the moisture content is unsuitable. The yield of oil v. from this plant in isaan area less than growing at east or south.

From..thaiverypoorfarmer

Edited September 20, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[teletiger]

1 hectare (about 6-7rai) will give you about 400kg of biodiesel per year or about 6-7 tankfuls for the average pickup (and that is with everything working just right based on around 4kg of seed to 1kg of biodiesel).

Tim

Adding the residue in with the cattle feed, as a high protien source, would add to the economics of it.

Regards

Just found this:

In all methods of extracting the oil, about 50% of the weight of the seeds remain as a press cake, containing mainly protein and carbohydrates. Investigations have shown that this residue contains toxic compounds and cannot be used as animal feed without further processing.

Harvest numbers are showing from 1 to 6 tons per hectare, so at the top-end would that be 3 tons of oil??

Regards

[Maizefarmer]

TT - thanks.

Yes, the byproduct does have some value as a potentil feedstock (subject to additional processing) - in the overall scheme of things I wouldn't though see it as a significant benefit.

The figures you give though interest me - and this is what I am trying to get sorted out. Lots of guys have come back with different figures, and granted, for different parts of the world Jatropha will give different volumes of product - but for Thailand, the best set of figures I can up with are 416kg per hectare per year - which equates to roughly 1600kg of harvested seedpod. Now thats specifically for North East Thailand. It may well be diffferent in other parts pf the world - subject to climate, soil type, irrigation ect ect......

But other forum members have come back with different figures: you have come across figures which suggest 50% oil extraction (i.e. 1ton of seepod = 500kg biodiesel/oil) and others have come back with figures of around 1800litres per year per hectare.

I am trying to find out which figures are correct - becaue at 416kg oil/biodiesel per year per hectare it simply isn't worth it - do the math and convert to rai - my lands worth a lot more than a half tank of diesel per year per rai (which is roughly what 416kg per hectare per year equates to). But 1800kg of bio diesel per year per hectare - well, that is a very different story. Per rai that equates to around 277kg biodiesel per year.

But missing from all this (irrispective of which figures are accurate for the tests condcuted to date in North east Thailand), is just what did it cost to produce those volumes of biodiesel, and what is the saving versus petro-diesel?

Then we can see just what this process is worth - if indeed its worth doing at all against a Thai diesel price of Baht27.

I am inclined to think that the best way of going about producing biodiesel is to have a chat with your local resturants - check out the math for converting old coking oil - worst case scenario I could calculate is that you would save 75% over the cost of petro-diesel at the pump, and typically speaking aoru8nd 85%!!!!!

I have PM'd Poorfarmer - he seems to know exactly what the issues/cost/margins are as far as Thailand is concerned.

Tim

1 hectare (about 6-7rai) will give you about 400kg of biodiesel per year or about 6-7 tankfuls for the average pickup (and that is with everything working just right based on around 4kg of seed to 1kg of biodiesel).

Tim

Adding the residue in with the cattle feed, as a high protien source, would add to the economics of it.

Regards

Just found this:

In all methods of extracting the oil, about 50% of the weight of the seeds remain as a press cake, containing mainly protein and carbohydrates. Investigations have shown that this residue contains toxic compounds and cannot be used as animal feed without further processing.

Harvest numbers are showing from 1 to 6 tons per hectare, so at the top-end would that be 3 tons of oil??

Regards

[udon]

Tim, re used cooking oil.

I've never regarded Thailand as a "fish and chip" society and an easy source of used cooking oil.

Apart from the food chains (MacD and Burger King) in the bigger cities, what other sources are out there?

ie: Deep fried foods.

cheers

udon

[chownah]

From post #36:

http://www.checkbiotech.org/blocks/dsp_doc...fm?doc_id=10129

“In the tests in the Northeast, the average total revenue per hectare for farmers was around 67,000 baht from growing 416 kg a year - 12,727 kg, or two million baht in 30 years. Estimated biodiesel production per hectare was about 3,000 litres over the same 30 years”

To me this means that 3,000 litres are produced in 30 years on one hectare so 3,000/30=100 litres are produced per hectare per year so 100/6.25=16 litres per rai per year. 16 LITRES PER RAI PER YEAR?

Also, this means the 67,000 baht was received for selling 416 kg of product so 67,000/416=161 baht per kg of product....what product are they making that is worth 161 baht per kg?....it seems to me that this is for the seed because 416 kg of seed would produce about 100 litres of oil per hectare which matches my calculations above.

If the seed is valued at 161 baht per kg and it takes 4 kg of seed to make one kg of oil then 161 x 4=644 baht per litre is the cost for the material to make one litre of oil????????

Also, in the article it says:

"D1 says it can refine up to five million litres of Jatropha oil per year from plantations totalling 31,205 rai. It takes four kilogrammes of Jatropha seeds to refine into one litre of oil. "

This means that 5,000,000/31,205=160 litres of oil can be produced on one rai in one year.....which is ten times what I calculated from their other data.

I think that there is some problem with their numbers or else there is some problem with my analysis....please check my analysis and let me know if I've made a mistake.

Chownah

Edited September 21, 2006 by chownah

[Maizefarmer]

At last - I was wondering how long it would take for someone to pickup on that - yes you're right - that articles figures are well messed up.

Where do you think they are wrong - total produced, total per kg of seed .......? (and just what are accuarte figures/).

From post #36:

http://www.checkbiotech.org/blocks/dsp_doc...fm?doc_id=10129

“In the tests in the Northeast, the average total revenue per hectare for farmers was around 67,000 baht from growing 416 kg a year - 12,727 kg, or two million baht in 30 years. Estimated biodiesel production per hectare was about 3,000 litres over the same 30 years”

To me this means that 3,000 litres are produced in 30 years on one hectare so 3,000/30=100 litres are produced per hectare per year so 100/6.25=16 litres per rai per year. 16 LITRES PER RAI PER YEAR?

Also, this means the 67,000 baht was received for selling 416 kg of product so 67,000/416=161 baht per kg of product....what product are they making that is worth 161 baht per kg?....it seems to me that this is for the seed because 416 kg of seed would produce about 100 litres of oil per hectare which matches my calculations above.

If the seed is valued at 161 baht per kg and it takes 4 kg of seed to make one kg of oil then 161 x 4=644 baht per litre is the cost for the material to make one litre of oil????????

Also, in the article it says:

"D1 says it can refine up to five million litres of Jatropha oil per year from plantations totalling 31,205 rai. It takes four kilogrammes of Jatropha seeds to refine into one litre of oil. "

This means that 5,000,000/31,205=160 litres of oil can be produced on one rai in one year.....which is ten times what I calculated from their other data.

I think that there is some problem with their numbers or else there is some problem with my analysis....please check my analysis and let me know if I've made a mistake.

Chownah

[Maizefarmer]

No, not a fish & chip society, but we do use a lot of cooking oil in this country - every roadside resturant will have a plastic container with cooking oil for frying, and every mobile food stall has a plastic container with cooking oil.

I have a main route bus stop at the end of my drive - everymorning there are at least 10 - 15 food carts parked up. Come mid-day and they push off till evening, they just throw out onto the ground all the used cooking oil - I guess 10-20 litres a day. Had the idea that if I put a container there (all in the interest of keeping the land clean) I could collect a good 50 + litres a week.

Night market - send my gofer around there each evening, at least another 100 food stalls and they all throw out used cooking oil every day - it goes into drains. Give them all a plastic container and offer them Baht 5 for every litre of used cooking oil they put into it for me. I gues that would be worth 50 litres per day quite easily.

That would be around 300-400 litres per week with very little cost involved in collecting it as it is all within a couple km's from me.

Quickly starts to add up up Udon.

Tim, re used cooking oil.

I've never regarded Thailand as a "fish and chip" society and an easy source of used cooking oil.

Apart from the food chains (MacD and Burger King) in the bigger cities, what other sources are out there?

ie: Deep fried foods.

cheers

udon

[chownah]

I think that this website gives a plausible reason why yield data can vary so much....it says that when grown as a hedge crop (evidentally the usual method traditionally) the yield can be 0.8kg per running meter up to as high as 2kg per running metre for mature hedges...this is a 250% difference and I think that it easily covers the range of yields reported so far. It seems unlikely that a hedge 5 metres tall could be harvested efficiently on a large scale without special equipment which probably does not yet exist...but which might in the future. For those who promote this oil as a small farmer/poor farmer type crop this tall hedge is a realistic source of the seed since hand picking is a typical activity for these people and therefore the higher yield rates of kg/ha are possibly achieveable while for the agro-business approach the lower figure is probably appropriate for mass crop processing........but this is only speculation on my part.....it is a plausible explanation for the differences in the yield data in my view.

Chownah

http://www.jatropha.de/

Yield:

The yield of hedges was measured in Mali and an average of 0,8 kg of seeds per running meter of a hedge was found. High (5 - 6 m) and old hedges gave 2 kg per running meter.

If one plants these hedges on a hectar with a distance of 3 meters, one has 3.300 meters. And a production of 2.640 kg of seeds. With a hand press this will give you about 660 litres of oil. A modern industrial expeller will give you about 825 litres.

DaimlerChrysler in India calculates with 2.500 kg of seeds per hectar.

The yield depends very much on the soil and the rainfall and the origin of the plants. There are not yet high yield varieties identified.

[Maizefarmer]

Okay Chownah - this is the sort of info that starts to put the subject into a practical context and enable a realistic assesement to be made.

So we are realisticaly looking at around 660 litres to 825litres - lets take mean of 740 litres per hectare - which will = about 114 litre per rai per year.

I can't see this (as a crop) making sense. Those figures are yearly figures - correct/incorrect?.

That gives the land a value of Baht 19287 per year , just over a Baht 1600 p/month - about a tank full of diesel per rai per month.

And what makes that worse is that it is a gross figure - before labour costs, before processing costs, before land costs , before irrigation costs - before any cost!!

Against the price of what diesel costs in Thailand, this crop as a bio-fuel just does not seem to add up - sure in Europe or the USA, but not here.

It would need to be intensively grown, it would need to be mechanically harvested and the production costs would need to be so low I dont know if it would actually be possible.

As an eco- friendly fuel, and clean of the politics and war that go with petroluem nowadays - yes ++++ - and like it or not we may just be in that position one day.

I think I'd want to see a gross figure of around Baht 6000 - 7000 per/month (per rai) with costs that are no more than 50% - 65% of what a litre of petro-diesel costs, before it would start making long term sense - untill then....... back to the used cooking oil idea,

Tim

Edited September 21, 2006 by Maizefarmer

[udon]

undefined

No, not a fish & chip society, but we do use a lot of cooking oil in this country - every roadside resturant will have a plastic container with cooking oil for frying, and every mobile food stall has a plastic container with cooking oil.

That would be around 300-400 litres per week with very little cost involved in collecting it as it is all within a couple km's from me.

Quickly starts to add up up Udon.

****************

Stuff up yr quote....... Grrr.

Thanks, I'll be more observant in future, my interest is in powering a genny, cheaply, in the 'jungle'.

Here's a few more links:

http://www.tinytechindia.com/ mills & extractors.

http://www.nabard.org/roles/ms/fw/pongamia.htm Pongamia pinnata, an alt to

jatropha & a great shade tree..... some say insect resistant, some the opposite

http://www.piteba.com/eng/index_eng.htm a small hand press for $120 from Holland (inc frt)

http://forums.biodieselnow.com/default.asp?CAT_ID=5 Biodiesel forums, outside the USA.

http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg61253.html List to dig around in.

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#biofuel-ml Excellent biofuel site with good links

P.M. Diesels Ltd, makers of the old Lister type diesel engines (slow rev)

Look for the "Fieldmarshall" http://www.fieldmarshal.com/english/Products1.htm good for 60 years+.

Enjoy

Edited September 21, 2006 by udon

[Maizefarmer]

Again - more usefull info - I'm useless on the net so have a study at home full of books and articles from various Uni's - in a way good because its all specific for Thailand - even if its all in Thai. I went looking for mills yesterday and came across a company in the UK called ALVIN BLANCHE - some nice stuff, but huge price, which in Baht terms means it aint worth it.

That tinytec mill from india looks just the thing. The Ducth one at 2kg an hour - me thinks not, you'll have no time to use the oil!!

Tim

[Maizefarmer]

UDON - "gennie in jungle" - and how many Kw hour or day are u looking to generate?

[udon]

UDON - "gennie in jungle" - and how many Kw hour or day are u looking to generate?

Enough to run 1-2 aircons and the usual household items.

Maybe run the aircon for an hour and then switch to 16" portable fans once the room has cooled down.

The guy who invents solar powered aircons will make billions.

At night i'd need a small aircon on all night in the B/R.

Tough order, I know!

Edited September 22, 2006 by udon

[udon]

I'm not sure if you have seen these costings for Jatropha in India, so here goes.

Note: based on a daily wage of 65 INR.

Today's rate is 1000INR = 816THB

http://www.jatrophabiodiesel.org/economics.php?_divid=menu4

[Maizefarmer]

I'm not sure if you have seen these costings for Jatropha in India, so here goes.

Note: based on a daily wage of 65 INR.

Today's rate is 1000INR = 816THB

http://www.jatrophabiodiesel.org/economics.php?_divid=menu4

Ooooooooooooops - the enemy of all domestic alternative power systems is the AC compressor. Yup, you're stuck with that - no way round it - 1Kw is a Kilo watt is a Kilo watt i.e. it makes no differance if you need it now or over a period of 1 hour or 10 hours - the gennie still needs to push out that ampaerage, so yes - its a tall order - but its not impossible.

Heres what I suggest - don't laugh - get a few car aircondition systems - the compressors of/off cars systems can be run off low hp high torque diesel engines geared down - like the Fieldmarshall Low Speed Diesel engine (the first one on there page) - perfect to run 2 or 3 car ac compressors. And if you know anything about ac systems, well the rest is simple - its all about finding a way to run the compressors cheaply - and if you can run a compressor directly off the engine (as opposed to using the engine to prduce electrictity to drive an electric motor) you will find a big big increase in effciency (i.e. energy in versus energy out - off the top of my head it wouldnt suprize me if you could cool down your room for about 25% of what it would cost you to use a conventional 220vac airconditioner).

When I first got farm going and I had just blown all my earnings for the previous 10 years on buying this land, I used car air conditioner comnpressors as milk pre coolers - and then moved them into the house as the compressors for the ac system - well, they were located outside with the copper pipes leading to an old 220Vac heat exchanger and fan. It worked just as good as a conventional 220Vac airconditoner but at less than 25% of the ac electrictity cost.

Yes I have seen the figures for Jatropha income in India. They vary quite a bit depending where you are in the world. In Thailand it works out to about Baht65rai per day - and that is before expenses - its a no brainer unless you have loads and load of land that is nogood for anything else - then possible, just possibly you may be able to earn an income from biodiesel from Jatropha - but not otherwise. Cooking oil (used) is the way to go in Thailand - there is loads of it about, so you just have to think out a practical way of putting in place a logistics system to collect that used cooking oil. Mac Donalds not on as they appear to have some or other arrangement with a 3rd party collector , but there are literally 1000's of foodcarts in every town/village who just throw it down the drain each day!

I am great one for practicality - big differance between armchair commentating and working the land - you quickly find theory seldom matches up with what actually happens when you start growing crops or feeding animals - or trying to justify making biodesiel in Thailand (against the price of commercial diesel).

Tim

[udon]

ummm.... "Poorfarmer" won't be back under that name..... well spotted by Bambi, she has been banned for the 4th time.

[timber]

Udon Was there a problem with "Poorfarmer" I was thinking about going over there and seeing the operation on jatropha bio-diesel. Thanks....

ummm.... "Poorfarmer" won't be back under that name..... well spotted by Bambi, she has been banned for the 4th time.

[udon]

Udon Was there a problem with "Poorfarmer" I was thinking about going over there and seeing the operation on jatropha bio-diesel. Thanks....

ummm.... "Poorfarmer" won't be back under that name..... well spotted by Bambi, she has been banned for the 4th time.

She was very naughty on a few occasions under various nics.

I have no idea how she can be contacted.

Solly

Go to Kaset Uni anyway, I'm sure they are keen to talk about their project.

Can you speak Thai?