US and UN condemn killing of Palestinian boy in Israel

[Morch]

Strangely they didn't use as much venom in condemning the 3 Israeli kids being killed.

What did they expect would happen?

The US and UN need to wind their necks in a bit, peace is a two-way street. They seem to be condemning Israel as a whole with such words as 'If they truly want peace'.

'If they truly want peace'. is a quote from Abbas, not the UN / US spokespersons.

In the article I do not see Israel taking offence to the comments by the UN / US. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said it was "despicable" and that he had ordered police to work "as quickly as possible to find out who was behind the heinous murder of the youth". He called on both sides "not to take the law into their own hands".

The same Abbas who made a deal with Hamas who calls for destruction of Israel ?

Elections are coming up soon, let's see if Hamas & Fatah can actually form any lasting unity government. Highly unlikely given the financial sanctions & political pressure that will be imposed by Israel & US.

The so called agreement was loaded with issues that got nothing to do with Israel and the USA.

They never got around to finalizing who controls the Hamas military wing (mainly because the Hamas political wing is not

keen on bringing this up and losing face). Despite Hamas decelerations Islamic Jihad & Co. are committed to this, parties

weren't expressing similar enthusiasm. There are still a mass of who gets which piece of the cake to be sorted, between

the PA and the Hamas, and within the Hamas.

The main issue currently (disregarding the escalation in hostilities) revolves around payment for municipal and government

officials in the Gaza Strip. Hamas doesn't have the means, the PA balk at picking the tab before it gets assurances that the

agreement will go through.

Then there are possible financial sanctions and political pressure by outside forces.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Morch

[Morch]

@Pralaad:

Politics. Israeli government is constantly undermining Abbas, thereby bolstering Hamas and a reason for the proposed unity government. An Israeli media article below stating Israel is making a strategic error with the weakening of Abbas.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.602457

Hamas position on the destruction of Israel is hardly realistic, more like beating its chest for its domestic audience.

Well of course its all Israel's fault and Abbas is a saint sent by God.

It once again irrelevant if Hamas position is realistic or not, what is relevant is Abbas's willingness to side or unite with them.

It is also irrelevant if it is chest beating for domestic audience,because rockets aimed at civilians keep on being fired BY Hamas INTO Israel

It is always the same story with the Arabs, talk, more talk and do nothing in the end.

Actions speak louder than words.

Israel did not start to bomb Gazza after seize fire, Hamas did.

Israel did not kidnap kids and murder them, People under Abbas did

Israeli's do not dance, party and celebrate the death of arab kid, Hamas does.

I have no problem with you disliking jews and Israel, i do have a problem with you consistently trying to make arabs look like angels and downplaying their crimes.

Yes Israel arrests many arabs and jails them(no doubt you can argue its all wrong and false charges) but again Israel jails them, while Hamas kills its own people without a trial, just as they kidnap and kill jews.

The kidnapping of the three Israelis took place in areas under Israel's control. Not quite sure the same applies for the

kidnappers, but that would probably be cleared when they catch up with them. Don't know if "people under Abbas" is

quite correct, then.

There are actually quite a lot of noise in Israeli social media in support of the Arab kid's murder and calling for more.

Granted, many of Israel's leaders spoke against this during the last couple of days, and the behavior mentioned is by

no means general - but it sure does exist.

I think that taking the Hamas as a moral standard is quite sad.

[Pralaad]

@Pralaad:

Politics. Israeli government is constantly undermining Abbas, thereby bolstering Hamas and a reason for the proposed unity government. An Israeli media article below stating Israel is making a strategic error with the weakening of Abbas.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.602457

Hamas position on the destruction of Israel is hardly realistic, more like beating its chest for its domestic audience.

Well of course its all Israel's fault and Abbas is a saint sent by God.

It once again irrelevant if Hamas position is realistic or not, what is relevant is Abbas's willingness to side or unite with them.

It is also irrelevant if it is chest beating for domestic audience,because rockets aimed at civilians keep on being fired BY Hamas INTO Israel

It is always the same story with the Arabs, talk, more talk and do nothing in the end.

Actions speak louder than words.

Israel did not start to bomb Gazza after seize fire, Hamas did.

Israel did not kidnap kids and murder them, People under Abbas did

Israeli's do not dance, party and celebrate the death of arab kid, Hamas does.

I have no problem with you disliking jews and Israel, i do have a problem with you consistently trying to make arabs look like angels and downplaying their crimes.

Yes Israel arrests many arabs and jails them(no doubt you can argue its all wrong and false charges) but again Israel jails them, while Hamas kills its own people without a trial, just as they kidnap and kill jews.

The kidnapping of the three Israelis took place in areas under Israel's control. Not quite sure the same applies for the

kidnappers, but that would probably be cleared when they catch up with them. Don't know if "people under Abbas" is

quite correct, then.

There are actually quite a lot of noise in Israeli social media in support of the Arab kid's murder and calling for more.

Granted, many of Israel's leaders spoke against this during the last couple of days, and the behavior mentioned is by

no means general - but it sure does exist.

I think that taking the Hamas as a moral standard is quite sad.

You are entitled to your opinion

It is exactly the point that kidnapping happened in Israel , but kids were taken to West bank. which happens to be under PA authority

IF it was Hamas, kids would have been taken to Gaza.

Borders are under Israels control, not the area where they were found.

But accepting YOUR theory of events would totally contradict Fatah claim of assisting, because if its under Israeli control, PA security has no control or presence.

[Kasset Tak]

What most people seems to forget is that Israel is a product of UN after WW II. There where basically no Jewish people in that area and they relocated after the war.

Nonsense. There have always been Jews there since the majority were forced into the Diaspora by the Romans in the year 70 C.E.. In the early 19th century, years before the birth of the modern Zionist movement, more than 10,000 Jews lived throughout what is today Israel. The Jewish people have maintained ties to their homeland for more than 3,700 years. Learn some history, before making such unfounded statements.

I'm sorry! I admit that I was wrong writing that there where basically no Jewish people living in Palestine. Their where a Jewish minority (1880 5% and to the time before 1930 less than 15% of the population) living in what was then called Palestine. In 1947 before the 6 day war Jews owned less than 7% of the land in Palistine and after the war they claimed 80% of the land!

[Pralaad]

What most people seems to forget is that Israel is a product of UN after WW II. There where basically no Jewish people in that area and they relocated after the war.

Nonsense. There have always been Jews there since the majority were forced into the Diaspora by the Romans in the year 70 C.E.. In the early 19th century, years before the birth of the modern Zionist movement, more than 10,000 Jews lived throughout what is today Israel. The Jewish people have maintained ties to their homeland for more than 3,700 years. Learn some history, before making such unfounded statements.

I'm sorry! I admit that I was wrong writing that there where basically no Jewish people living in Palestine. Their where a Jewish minority (1880 5% and to the time before 1930 less than 15% of the population) living in what was then called Palestine. In 1947 before the 6 day war Jews owned less than 7% of the land in Palistine and after the war they claimed 80% of the land!

I could be totally wrong but i do not believe Palistine ever existed.

Even the so-called leader of the “Palestinian” people, Yasser Arafat, is Egyptian!

Palestine has never existed . . . as an autonomous entity. There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc.

[Ulysses G.]

You are almost right. There was a Jewish Palestine, back in the olden days.

[Kasset Tak]

What most people seems to forget is that Israel is a product of UN after WW II. There where basically no Jewish people in that area and they relocated after the war. There where Palestinians living there but they where just shoved to the side by UN, US and UK.

And as someone already said, US are spending alot of money and never goes against Israel in UN.

If we look at what is happening in Israel and Palestina, UN should intertwine just like they did in Iraq, Afghanistan and so on. But US would never allow that as Israel is their friend!

Sometimes I can feel the absurdity by the politicians in EU and US. Now they are condemning the military in Thailand that have the support of a majority of the people and are trying to make Thailand a better place. But supports Israel a country that are occupying another country and don't even try to get peace!

Did you know that Israel forbids export to Palestina of medicine, building materials and even macaronis! They attacked and shot relief workers on international water as they tried to get those things to the people on the Westbank. Next time I hope that EU can support the relief workers with armed escort weasels and protect them!

As others pointed out, there were Jews around well before WW II.

The USA indeed spends more than it ought to on Israel, especially with economic times being what they are.

The UN should intervene? And do...what? Was the UN very effective in Iraq? Afghanistan? Anywhere?

The UN is not well equipped to deal with confrontations, and hardly able to deal with peace keeping missions

involving even one unwilling side, not to mention two (or more). A fine example of UN prowess can be found

in Lebanon, where their contribution and relevance are pretty minimal.

The banning of certain items is mostly relevant to the Gaza Strip, not the West Bank. The West Bank is, in fact,

landlocked and therefore cannot be reached via international water. Probably something to do with Israel as well .

There is a slight difference regarding who is in control of both territories which would go a ways toward explaining

why this ban is in place. Somehow, people seem to forget that the Gaza Strip has a land border with Egypt, which

had Egypt wished could be open in a blink of an eye. That to is due to the current rules of the Gaza Strip. The ban

itself was relaxed some following the last cease fire deal.

I'm sorry I mixed up west bank and the gaza strip.

And in my mind Israel is a fascist country that are allowed to do what they do to the palestinians and anyone tying to help the palestinians just because of the guilt so many people feel for what happened during WW II.

And about Egypt opening the border... It would take 2 minutes before the Israelis would bomb it. Today the palestinians uses tunnels under the border to Egypt because of this!

And you are right UN have made many bad jobs, one of the first was to not solve the palestinian/Jewish problem already 1948 before Britain left the area to become 2 independent states after the vote in UN 1947.

[Pralaad]

What most people seems to forget is that Israel is a product of UN after WW II. There where basically no Jewish people in that area and they relocated after the war. There where Palestinians living there but they where just shoved to the side by UN, US and UK.

And as someone already said, US are spending alot of money and never goes against Israel in UN.

If we look at what is happening in Israel and Palestina, UN should intertwine just like they did in Iraq, Afghanistan and so on. But US would never allow that as Israel is their friend!

Sometimes I can feel the absurdity by the politicians in EU and US. Now they are condemning the military in Thailand that have the support of a majority of the people and are trying to make Thailand a better place. But supports Israel a country that are occupying another country and don't even try to get peace!

Did you know that Israel forbids export to Palestina of medicine, building materials and even macaronis! They attacked and shot relief workers on international water as they tried to get those things to the people on the Westbank. Next time I hope that EU can support the relief workers with armed escort weasels and protect them!

As others pointed out, there were Jews around well before WW II.

The USA indeed spends more than it ought to on Israel, especially with economic times being what they are.

The UN should intervene? And do...what? Was the UN very effective in Iraq? Afghanistan? Anywhere?

The UN is not well equipped to deal with confrontations, and hardly able to deal with peace keeping missions

involving even one unwilling side, not to mention two (or more). A fine example of UN prowess can be found

in Lebanon, where their contribution and relevance are pretty minimal.

The banning of certain items is mostly relevant to the Gaza Strip, not the West Bank. The West Bank is, in fact,

landlocked and therefore cannot be reached via international water. Probably something to do with Israel as well .

There is a slight difference regarding who is in control of both territories which would go a ways toward explaining

why this ban is in place. Somehow, people seem to forget that the Gaza Strip has a land border with Egypt, which

had Egypt wished could be open in a blink of an eye. That to is due to the current rules of the Gaza Strip. The ban

itself was relaxed some following the last cease fire deal.

I'm sorry I mixed up west bank and the gaza strip.

And in my mind Israel is a fascist country that are allowed to do what they do to the palestinians and anyone tying to help the palestinians just because of the guilt so many people feel for what happened during WW II.

And about Egypt opening the border... It would take 2 minutes before the Israelis would bomb it. Today the palestinians uses tunnels under the border to Egypt because of this!

And you are right UN have made many bad jobs, one of the first was to not solve the palestinian/Jewish problem already 1948 before Britain left the area to become 2 independent states after the vote in UN 1947.

a person who does not know the difference and mixes up gaza and west bank keeps on posting about history? and what is what?

Israel has never bombed Egyptian border crossing and it was Egypt who closed it to avoid terror attacks from Muslim Brotherhood.

The very same Egypt who charges Palestinians higher rates for gas and petrol, forcing them to smuggle it in, along with weapons instead of food.

Please educate yourself a little before posting rubbish

[Morch]

@Pralaad:

Politics. Israeli government is constantly undermining Abbas, thereby bolstering Hamas and a reason for the proposed unity government. An Israeli media article below stating Israel is making a strategic error with the weakening of Abbas.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.602457

Hamas position on the destruction of Israel is hardly realistic, more like beating its chest for its domestic audience.

Well of course its all Israel's fault and Abbas is a saint sent by God.

It once again irrelevant if Hamas position is realistic or not, what is relevant is Abbas's willingness to side or unite with them.

It is also irrelevant if it is chest beating for domestic audience,because rockets aimed at civilians keep on being fired BY Hamas INTO Israel

It is always the same story with the Arabs, talk, more talk and do nothing in the end.

Actions speak louder than words.

Israel did not start to bomb Gazza after seize fire, Hamas did.

Israel did not kidnap kids and murder them, People under Abbas did

Israeli's do not dance, party and celebrate the death of arab kid, Hamas does.

I have no problem with you disliking jews and Israel, i do have a problem with you consistently trying to make arabs look like angels and downplaying their crimes.

Yes Israel arrests many arabs and jails them(no doubt you can argue its all wrong and false charges) but again Israel jails them, while Hamas kills its own people without a trial, just as they kidnap and kill jews.

The kidnapping of the three Israelis took place in areas under Israel's control. Not quite sure the same applies for the

kidnappers, but that would probably be cleared when they catch up with them. Don't know if "people under Abbas" is

quite correct, then.

There are actually quite a lot of noise in Israeli social media in support of the Arab kid's murder and calling for more.

Granted, many of Israel's leaders spoke against this during the last couple of days, and the behavior mentioned is by

no means general - but it sure does exist.

I think that taking the Hamas as a moral standard is quite sad.

You are entitled to your opinion

It is exactly the point that kidnapping happened in Israel , but kids were taken to West bank. which happens to be under PA authority

IF it was Hamas, kids would have been taken to Gaza.

Borders are under Israels control, not the area where they were found.

But accepting YOUR theory of events would totally contradict Fatah claim of assisting, because if its under Israeli control, PA security has no control or presence.

But the kidnapping did not happen in Israel. They were kidnapped in the West Bank. They were not taken to the West Bank, they were already there. Control over the West Bank is tricky, some areas being under full control of the PA, some under full control of the IDF, some halfway in between. Either way, it is not Israel.

Israel control much more than "borders" - an explanation can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank_Areas_in_the_Oslo_II_Accord Note that the areas under IDF control are nominally, the white ones on the map, plus the dark purple ones indicating Israeli settlements (aka area C). The IDF keeps operating within the areas controlled by the PA, if to a lesser degree than in the past.

There is quite a bit of Hamas presence in the West Bank, and this nothing new. Even Israel acknowledges this. Many of the arrested are Hamas people. Things are really not as clear cut as you make them to be.

It is not "my theory", those things were either reported or are well known facts. The PA's assistance, as far as I understand, was more with to do with intelligence (apart from finding the kidnappers burnt car on the first day of the search).

[Morch]

What most people seems to forget is that Israel is a product of UN after WW II. There where basically no Jewish people in that area and they relocated after the war. There where Palestinians living there but they where just shoved to the side by UN, US and UK.

And as someone already said, US are spending alot of money and never goes against Israel in UN.

If we look at what is happening in Israel and Palestina, UN should intertwine just like they did in Iraq, Afghanistan and so on. But US would never allow that as Israel is their friend!

Sometimes I can feel the absurdity by the politicians in EU and US. Now they are condemning the military in Thailand that have the support of a majority of the people and are trying to make Thailand a better place. But supports Israel a country that are occupying another country and don't even try to get peace!

Did you know that Israel forbids export to Palestina of medicine, building materials and even macaronis! They attacked and shot relief workers on international water as they tried to get those things to the people on the Westbank. Next time I hope that EU can support the relief workers with armed escort weasels and protect them!

As others pointed out, there were Jews around well before WW II.

The USA indeed spends more than it ought to on Israel, especially with economic times being what they are.

The UN should intervene? And do...what? Was the UN very effective in Iraq? Afghanistan? Anywhere?

The UN is not well equipped to deal with confrontations, and hardly able to deal with peace keeping missions

involving even one unwilling side, not to mention two (or more). A fine example of UN prowess can be found

in Lebanon, where their contribution and relevance are pretty minimal.

The banning of certain items is mostly relevant to the Gaza Strip, not the West Bank. The West Bank is, in fact,

landlocked and therefore cannot be reached via international water. Probably something to do with Israel as well .

There is a slight difference regarding who is in control of both territories which would go a ways toward explaining

why this ban is in place. Somehow, people seem to forget that the Gaza Strip has a land border with Egypt, which

had Egypt wished could be open in a blink of an eye. That to is due to the current rules of the Gaza Strip. The ban

itself was relaxed some following the last cease fire deal.

I'm sorry I mixed up west bank and the gaza strip.

And in my mind Israel is a fascist country that are allowed to do what they do to the palestinians and anyone tying to help the palestinians just because of the guilt so many people feel for what happened during WW II.

And about Egypt opening the border... It would take 2 minutes before the Israelis would bomb it. Today the palestinians uses tunnels under the border to Egypt because of this!

And you are right UN have made many bad jobs, one of the first was to not solve the palestinian/Jewish problem already 1948 before Britain left the area to become 2 independent states after the vote in UN 1947.

Well, the border with Egypt was briefly opened, until Egypt realized it might not be a great idea and closed it again. So far Israel did nothing coming close to bombing the Egyptian side of the border, but feel free to fantasize. Or you could read up about Egypt's domestic politics and how they reflect on Egypt's attitude and dealings with Gaza and the Hamas. Hint: this is not only and wholly about Israel.

As for the tunnels, the Egyptians are quite active lately in blocking them, something to do with what was stated above. May want to think why would they even need tunnels to cross over to Egypt...not the normal way to enter a country.

The UN and the Brits certainly left a mess. Same goes for most of the Middle East and the Indian sub-continent.

[Pralaad]

But the kidnapping did not happen in Israel. They were kidnapped in the West Bank. They were not taken to the West Bank,

they were already there. Control over the West Bank is tricky, some areas being under full control of the PA, some under full

control of the IDF, some halfway in between. Either way, it is not Israel.

Israel control much more than "borders" - an explanation can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank_Areas_in_the_Oslo_II_Accord Note that the areas under IDF control are nominally, the white ones

on the map, plus the dark purple ones indicating Israeli settlements (aka area C). The IDF keeps operating within the

areas controlled by the PA, if to a lesser degree than in the past.

There is quite a bit of Hamas presence in the West Bank, and this nothing new. Even Israel acknowledges this. Many of the

arrested are Hamas people. Things are really not as clear cut as you make them to be.

It is not "my theory", those things were either reported or are well known facts. The PA's assistance, as far as I understand,

was more with to do with intelligence (apart from finding the kidnappers burnt car on the first day of the search).

They were in jewish settlements area, they were kidnapped from there and taken to PA controlled area,

IDF did not search jewish home in the settlements

Any reason why PA intelligence can not locate killers?

I am really not sure what point you trying to prove? If you trying to say PA really wants peace, then you are gravely mistaken

If you saying PA does not facilitate attacks, you are also gravely mistaken.

[Morch]

But the kidnapping did not happen in Israel. They were kidnapped in the West Bank. They were not taken to the West Bank, they were already there. Control over the West Bank is tricky, some areas being under full control of the PA, some under full control of the IDF, some halfway in between. Either way, it is not Israel.

Israel control much more than "borders" - an explanation can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org /wiki/West_Bank_Areas_in_the_Oslo_II_Accord Note that the areas under IDF control are nominally, the white ones on the map, plus the dark purple ones indicating Israeli settlements (aka area C). The IDF keeps operating within the areas controlled by the PA, if to a lesser degree than in the past.

There is quite a bit of Hamas presence in the West Bank, and this nothing new. Even Israel acknowledges this. Many of the arrested are Hamas people. Things are really not as clear cut as you make them to be.

It is not "my theory", those things were either reported or are well known facts. The PA's assistance, as far as I understand, was more with to do with intelligence (apart from finding the kidnappers burnt car on the first day of the search).

They were in jewish settlements area, they were kidnapped from there and taken to PA controlled area,

IDF did not search jewish home in the settlements

Any reason why PA intelligence can not locate killers?

I am really not sure what point you trying to prove? If you trying to say PA really wants peace, then you are gravely mistaken

If you saying PA does not facilitate attacks, you are also gravely mistaken.

Again, you keep backtracking....so they weren't kidnapped from Israel, but from an Israeli settlement in the West Bank - ok. Next - Could be right claiming they were taken to PA controlled area (as in area A), but haven't seen anything specific that says the place the bodies were found was in area A. Not saying it couldn't be right, sometimes hard to tell.

IDF didn't search homes in Jewish settlements....what does that have to do with anything?

Not only the PA that cannot locate the killers, so far Israel's security services are still on in it as well. No idea why you would think this is an easy thing to do.

I am not trying to "prove" anything, just pointing out some inaccuracies and false assumptions. I did not mention anything about the PA wanting peace, which is not directly the issue. I would say that even the Israeli authorities blame the Hamas, rather than the PA - guess you think they are also "gravely mistaken".

[Pralaad]

But the kidnapping did not happen in Israel. They were kidnapped in the West Bank. They were not taken to the West Bank,

they were already there. Control over the West Bank is tricky, some areas being under full control of the PA, some under full

control of the IDF, some halfway in between. Either way, it is not Israel.

Israel control much more than "borders" - an explanation can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Bank_Areas_in_the_Oslo_II_Accord Note that the areas under IDF control are nominally, the white ones

on the map, plus the dark purple ones indicating Israeli settlements (aka area C). The IDF keeps operating within the

areas controlled by the PA, if to a lesser degree than in the past.

There is quite a bit of Hamas presence in the West Bank, and this nothing new. Even Israel acknowledges this. Many of the

arrested are Hamas people. Things are really not as clear cut as you make them to be.

It is not "my theory", those things were either reported or are well known facts. The PA's assistance, as far as I understand,

was more with to do with intelligence (apart from finding the kidnappers burnt car on the first day of the search).

They were in jewish settlements area, they were kidnapped from there and taken to PA controlled area,

IDF did not search jewish home in the settlements

Any reason why PA intelligence can not locate killers?

I am really not sure what point you trying to prove? If you trying to say PA really wants peace, then you are gravely mistaken

If you saying PA does not facilitate attacks, you are also gravely mistaken.

Again, you keep backtracking....so they weren't kidnapped from Israel, but from an Israeli settlement in the West Bank - ok.

Next - Could be right claiming they were taken to PA controlled area (as in area A), but haven't seen anything specific that

says the place the bodies were found was in area A. Not saying it couldn't be right, sometimes hard to tell.

IDF didn't search homes in Jewish settlements....what does that have to do with anything?

Not only the PA that cannot locate the killers, so far Israel's security services are still on in it as well.

No idea why you would think this is an easy thing to do.

I am not trying to "prove" anything, just pointing out some inaccuracies and false assumptions.

I did not mention anything about the PA wanting peace, which is not directly the issue.

I would say that even the Israeli authorities blame the Hamas, rather than the PA - guess you think they are also

"gravely mistaken".

Morch i am not back tracking but stating the obvious.

You tried to claim that boys were kidnapped and held in Israeli controlled zone, which i disputed and hence reference to IDF searches of Jewish homes in Jewish Settlements.

Of course PA can not locate them and they never will, because they never do locate or arrest any killers.

It is much harder for IDF to follow the foot steps in the West Bank or even Gaza(where i believe they ran to and are welcomed with open arms)

If IDF did a full scale search, the usual haters would be whining and complaining.

Why do i think its an easy thing to do, because it was a big murder, celebrated by Hamas, i am certain there is a word on the street or those offering them refuge.

It really would not be so hard to raid all possible refuge places or even offer an award for their whereabouts. But as i said, you will not be seeing PA doing any of that.

PA is too busy creating and manufacturing fake evidence for PR fiasco, now that the Arab boy was killed.

[Kasset Tak]

What most people seems to forget is that Israel is a product of UN after WW II. There where basically no Jewish people in that area and they relocated after the war. There where Palestinians living there but they where just shoved to the side by UN, US and UK.

And as someone already said, US are spending alot of money and never goes against Israel in UN.

If we look at what is happening in Israel and Palestina, UN should intertwine just like they did in Iraq, Afghanistan and so on. But US would never allow that as Israel is their friend!

Sometimes I can feel the absurdity by the politicians in EU and US. Now they are condemning the military in Thailand that have the support of a majority of the people and are trying to make Thailand a better place. But supports Israel a country that are occupying another country and don't even try to get peace!

Did you know that Israel forbids export to Palestina of medicine, building materials and even macaronis! They attacked and shot relief workers on international water as they tried to get those things to the people on the Westbank. Next time I hope that EU can support the relief workers with armed escort weasels and protect them!

As others pointed out, there were Jews around well before WW II.

The USA indeed spends more than it ought to on Israel, especially with economic times being what they are.

The UN should intervene? And do...what? Was the UN very effective in Iraq? Afghanistan? Anywhere?

The UN is not well equipped to deal with confrontations, and hardly able to deal with peace keeping missions

involving even one unwilling side, not to mention two (or more). A fine example of UN prowess can be found

in Lebanon, where their contribution and relevance are pretty minimal.

The banning of certain items is mostly relevant to the Gaza Strip, not the West Bank. The West Bank is, in fact,

landlocked and therefore cannot be reached via international water. Probably something to do with Israel as well .

There is a slight difference regarding who is in control of both territories which would go a ways toward explaining

why this ban is in place. Somehow, people seem to forget that the Gaza Strip has a land border with Egypt, which

had Egypt wished could be open in a blink of an eye. That to is due to the current rules of the Gaza Strip. The ban

itself was relaxed some following the last cease fire deal.

I'm sorry I mixed up west bank and the gaza strip.

And in my mind Israel is a fascist country that are allowed to do what they do to the palestinians and anyone tying to help the palestinians just because of the guilt so many people feel for what happened during WW II.

And about Egypt opening the border... It would take 2 minutes before the Israelis would bomb it. Today the palestinians uses tunnels under the border to Egypt because of this!

And you are right UN have made many bad jobs, one of the first was to not solve the palestinian/Jewish problem already 1948 before Britain left the area to become 2 independent states after the vote in UN 1947.

a person who does not know the difference and mixes up gaza and west bank keeps on posting about history? and what is what?

Israel has never bombed Egyptian border crossing and it was Egypt who closed it to avoid terror attacks from Muslim Brotherhood.

The very same Egypt who charges Palestinians higher rates for gas and petrol, forcing them to smuggle it in, along with weapons instead of food.

Please educate yourself a little before posting rubbish

Maybe you should educate yourself too.

Gaza is under Israeli blockade sins 2006 after the palestinians captured an Israeli soldier.

There is a buffer zone between Egypt and Gaza as a part of the peace treaty signed between Israel and Egypt 1979 with only one crossing for people and one for goods.

The border where closed from 2008 to 2010 by the Israelis. I admit that the Egyptians closed it this time as Hamas where supporting the Muslim Brotherhood that the ousted president belong to. And Hamas won the 2006 election but EU, USA and Israel did not accept it and Israel even tried to manipulate the election. After the election Israel attacked Palestinian territory because Hamas are "terrorists".

In 2009 IsraelI airforce hit over 80 houses in Egypt while attacking the Gaza strip. So technically they have attacked Egyptian borders.

And just to ad one more of my opinions: I'm only afraid about one country that currently owns nuclear weapons, that they would actually use them and that is Israel!

This will be my last post to this sandbox!

I know that I don't know everything and sometimes I'm wrong, but I try to get my facts straight before I post so if you want to complain then get your facts straight before you complain so I that I can apologize that I said something wrong instead of starting a meaningless mud slinging!

Edited July 3, 2014 by Kasset Tak

[Morch]

But the kidnapping did not happen in Israel. They were kidnapped in the West Bank. They were not taken to the West Bank, they were already there. Control over the West Bank is tricky, some areas being under full control of the PA, some under full control of the IDF, some halfway in between. Either way, it is not Israel.

Israel control much more than "borders" - an explanation can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org wiki/West_Bank_Areas_in_the_Oslo_II_Accord Note that the areas under IDF control are nominally, the white ones on the map, plus the dark purple ones indicating Israeli settlements (aka area C). The IDF keeps operating within the areas controlled by the PA, if to a lesser degree than in the past.

There is quite a bit of Hamas presence in the West Bank, and this nothing new. Even Israel acknowledges this. Many of the arrested are Hamas people. Things are really not as clear cut as you make them to be.

It is not "my theory", those things were either reported or are well known facts. The PA's assistance, as far as I understand, was more with to do with intelligence (apart from finding the kidnappers burnt car on the first day of the search).

They were in jewish settlements area, they were kidnapped from there and taken to PA controlled area,

IDF did not search jewish home in the settlements

Any reason why PA intelligence can not locate killers?

I am really not sure what point you trying to prove? If you trying to say PA really wants peace, then you are gravely mistaken

If you saying PA does not facilitate attacks, you are also gravely mistaken.

Again, you keep backtracking....so they weren't kidnapped from Israel, but from an Israeli settlement in the West Bank - ok. Next - Could be right claiming they were taken to PA controlled area (as in area A), but haven't seen anything specific that says the place the bodies were found was in area A. Not saying it couldn't be right, sometimes hard to tell.

IDF didn't search homes in Jewish settlements....what does that have to do with anything?

Not only the PA that cannot locate the killers, so far Israel's security services are still on in it as well. No idea why you would think this is an easy thing to do.

I am not trying to "prove" anything, just pointing out some inaccuracies and false assumptions. I did not mention anything about the PA wanting peace, which is not directly the issue. I would say that even the Israeli authorities blame the Hamas, rather than the PA - guess you think they are also "gravely mistaken".

Morch i am not back tracking but stating the obvious.

You tried to claim that boys were kidnapped and held in Israeli controlled zone, which i disputed and hence reference to IDF searches of Jewish homes in Jewish Settlements.

Of course PA can not locate them and they never will, because they never do locate or arrest any killers.

It is much harder for IDF to follow the foot steps in the West Bank or even Gaza(where i believe they ran to and are welcomed with open arms)

If IDF did a full scale search, the usual haters would be whining and complaining.

Why do i think its an easy thing to do, because it was a big murder, celebrated by Hamas, i am certain there is a word on the street or those offering them refuge.

It really would not be so hard to raid all possible refuge places or even offer an award for their whereabouts. But as i said, you will not be seeing PA doing any of that.

PA is too busy creating and manufacturing fake evidence for PR fiasco, now that the Arab boy was killed.

Apologies for putting it bluntly, but I truly doubt if you ever set foot in this parts or bothered looking at a detailed map of the relevant areas. In the West Bank, a couple of clicks to whatever direction can mean you just passed into an area of different designation (as far as control goes). Sometimes even closer than that. Most of this amounts to lines on a map. If you're a local, you'd know where one area starts and another ends, sometimes. Sometimes not. A mess if there ever was one.

Now, the three were almost definitely kidnapped from somewhere designated area C (IDF control) - that does not mean inside an Israeli settlement nor does it mean there's no Palestinians around. The bodies were found in a place not 20km away - I am not 100% positive in which area (A,B,C) this exactly lies. Reports in both Israeli and Palestinian media seem to suggest this lies on the edge of a C area, but guess this could be contested - happens on a daily basis. The bit about searching homes in Jewish settlements is simply irrelevant.

To say that the killers may have ran away to the Gaza Strip again shows some lack of knowledge and local geography. They'd have to cross through Israel, not to mention the security barrier, roadblocks and a bunch of suspicious eyes, and that would get them as far as the border fence surrounding Gaza, with additional troops, patrols, road blocks etc. - good luck with that.

Not sure why you wish to say that if was not a full scale search. In my memory, there was nothing quite like it. Ever. Also, a few hundred Hamas people were arrested (with the blessing of Abbas, to be sure, less trouble on his hands), and the identity of the killers was made known pretty soon. I think it's a matter of time until they'll get them, not so much a question of "if". Less easy than people imagine to find two locals hiding, with certainly some of the population aiding them. Raiding every house in the West Bank sounds good, until one checks how many houses and people are around. Not something Israel ever did when it had full control of the West Bank (before the PA days), but guess easy enough for keyboard warriors to bust all them doors.

I have more confidence than you that those conducting this manhunt know what they're up to.

And no idea what the fake evidence bit was about. Sure that the PA is milking this for all the PR value it can, same as Israel milked the kidnapping for all its worth. That's politics.

[Steely Dan]

Strangely they didn't use as much venom in condemning the 3 Israeli kids being killed.

What did they expect would happen?

The US and UN need to wind their necks in a bit, peace is a two-way street. They seem to be condemning Israel as a whole with such words as 'If they truly want peace'.

The BBC was quick to put this as lead item on it's website in the world news section. The murder of the Israeli boys had a much lower billing and to boot the headline was to the effect that Israel was to blame - you had to take trouble to read the article to find the BBC was quoting the rantings of someone connected to Hamas.

Incidentally all four deaths are equally sickening, but the identity of all those guilty is as yet unproven.

Edit: The BBC is beyond disgraceful when it comes to objective reporting concerning Israel.

http://bbcwatch.org/tag/israel/

Edited July 3, 2014 by Steely Dan

[Johpa]

I believe that Israel is expected to take the high road in some of these matters.

Nethanyahu already took the low road once again with his knee-jerk emotional response after the discovery of the three dead Israeli youths. Nethanyahu himself is one part of the problem, admittedly a problem with no solution.

[Morch]

As others pointed out, there were Jews around well before WW II.

The USA indeed spends more than it ought to on Israel, especially with economic times being what they are.

The UN should intervene? And do...what? Was the UN very effective in Iraq? Afghanistan? Anywhere?

The UN is not well equipped to deal with confrontations, and hardly able to deal with peace keeping missions

involving even one unwilling side, not to mention two (or more). A fine example of UN prowess can be found

in Lebanon, where their contribution and relevance are pretty minimal.

The banning of certain items is mostly relevant to the Gaza Strip, not the West Bank. The West Bank is, in fact,

landlocked and therefore cannot be reached via international water. Probably something to do with Israel as well .

There is a slight difference regarding who is in control of both territories which would go a ways toward explaining

why this ban is in place. Somehow, people seem to forget that the Gaza Strip has a land border with Egypt, which

had Egypt wished could be open in a blink of an eye. That to is due to the current rules of the Gaza Strip. The ban

itself was relaxed some following the last cease fire deal.

I'm sorry I mixed up west bank and the gaza strip.

And in my mind Israel is a fascist country that are allowed to do what they do to the palestinians and anyone tying to help the palestinians just because of the guilt so many people feel for what happened during WW II.

And about Egypt opening the border... It would take 2 minutes before the Israelis would bomb it. Today the palestinians uses tunnels under the border to Egypt because of this!

And you are right UN have made many bad jobs, one of the first was to not solve the palestinian/Jewish problem already 1948 before Britain left the area to become 2 independent states after the vote in UN 1947.

a person who does not know the difference and mixes up gaza and west bank keeps on posting about history? and what is what?

Israel has never bombed Egyptian border crossing and it was Egypt who closed it to avoid terror attacks from Muslim Brotherhood.

The very same Egypt who charges Palestinians higher rates for gas and petrol, forcing them to smuggle it in, along with weapons instead of food.

Please educate yourself a little before posting rubbish

Maybe you should educate yourself too.

Gaza is under Israeli blockade sins 2006 after the palestinians captured an Israeli soldier.

There is a buffer zone between Egypt and Gaza as a part of the peace treaty signed between Israel and Egypt 1979 with only one crossing for people and one for goods.

The border where closed from 2008 to 2010 by the Israelis. I admit that the Egyptians closed it this time as Hamas where supporting the Muslim Brotherhood that the ousted president belong to. And Hamas won the 2006 election but EU, USA and Israel did not accept it and Israel even tried to manipulate the election. After the election Israel attacked Palestinian territory because Hamas are "terrorists".

In 2009 IsraelI airforce hit over 80 houses in Egypt while attacking the Gaza strip. So technically they have attacked Egyptian borders.

And just to ad one more of my opinions: I'm only afraid about one country that currently owns nuclear weapons, that they would actually use them and that is Israel!

This will be my last post to this sandbox!

I know that I don't know everything and sometimes I'm wrong, but I try to get my facts straight before I post so if you want to complain then get your facts straight before you complain so I that I can apologize that I said something wrong instead of starting a meaningless mud slinging!

You'll get there at the end, I'm positive.

The kidnapping in 2006 was not the reason behind the blockade.

The buffer zone is long gone. The border is still, however, closed. By Egypt.

Israel unilaterally withdrew from the Gaza Strip near the end of 2005. Beginning of 2006 Hamas won the elections - they were not called "terrorists" for nothing, their charter actually includes calls for the destruction of Israel, and the did carry out terrorist attacks against Israel. That's why they were called terrorists.

This is where sanctions by Israel, EU and USA kicked in - as in not passing funding to the Hamas seeing as they are a terrorist organization, and hence not recognizing their government for the very same reasons. If it's any consolation - Hamas does not recognize Israel as well, and keeps calling it a terrorist state (yes, it doesn't make sense).

The Israeli attacks in 2006 were both in response to the kidnapping and to continued firing of rockets on Israel.

About a year later, Fatah and Hamas in Gaza came to blows, with Hamas winning by killing the opposition. Body count was about 600 (which is sometimes wrongly added to deaths attributed to Israel), some gruesome clips of people being thrown from buildings etc. are available on the net. Parental guidance advised. Egypt closed the border at about this time.

Come 2008 and Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia choose to conduct their official dealings with the Fatah government in the West Bank (aka the PA) as the sole representative of the Palestinians. Hamas in a daring operation temporarily breaches the Egyptian border wall.

The "Gaza War" was beginning of 2009, not sure what you're on about with Israel attacking Egypt - a link would be nice. Far as I recall 1 border guard was killed, but could be wrong.

You're more afraid of Israel using nukes than say....North Korea, India, Pakistan..? Seriously?

[Pralaad]

Apologies for putting it bluntly, but I truly doubt if you ever set foot in this parts or bothered looking at a detailed map of

the relevant areas. In the West Bank, a couple of clicks to whatever direction can mean you just passed into an area of

different designation (as far as control goes). Sometimes even closer than that. Most of this amounts to lines on a map.

If you're a local, you'd know where one area starts and another ends, sometimes. Sometimes not. A mess if there ever

was one.

Now, the three were almost definitely kidnapped from somewhere designated area C (IDF control) - that does not mean

inside an Israeli settlement nor does it mean there's no Palestinians around. The bodies were found in a place not 20km

away - I am not 100% positive in which area (A,B,C) this exactly lies. Reports in both Israeli and Palestinian media seem

to suggest this lies on the edge of a C area, but guess this could be contested - happens on a daily basis. The bit about

searching homes in Jewish settlements is simply irrelevant.

To say that the killers may have ran away to the Gaza Strip again shows some lack of knowledge and local geography.

They'd have to cross through Israel, not to mention the security barrier, roadblocks and a bunch of suspicious eyes, and

that would get them as far as the border fence surrounding Gaza, with additional troops, patrols, road blocks etc. - good

luck with that.

Not sure why you wish to say that if was not a full scale search. In my memory, there was nothing quite like it. Ever.

Also, a few hundred Hamas people were arrested (with the blessing of Abbas, to be sure, less trouble on his hands),

and the identity of the killers was made known pretty soon. I think it's a matter of time until they'll get them, not so much

a question of "if". Less easy than people imagine to find two locals hiding, with certainly some of the population aiding

them. Raiding every house in the West Bank sounds good, until one checks how many houses and people are around.

Not something Israel ever did when it had full control of the West Bank (before the PA days), but guess easy enough for

keyboard warriors to bust all them doors.

I have more confidence than you that those conducting this manhunt know what they're up to.

And no idea what the fake evidence bit was about. Sure that the PA is milking this for all the PR value it can, same as

Israel milked the kidnapping for all its worth. That's politics.

You right i have not spent time looking at the maps, i had only lived in Israel for a while:thumbsup:

Reading your post, i can not help but wonder if you actually know about reality in Israel? and have you ever actually been there?

All your rhetoric seems to be based on what you read on internet.

Of course they easily ran to Gaza because kids were not found minutes after being killed and IDF did not identify the killers before finding the kids.

Now, if they did not run to Gaza, then PA is even more to blame, why? because it would appear their intelligence as you like to refer to them can not find an eye sore on the face.

You do realize West Bank is tiny?, really not that many places to hide:w00t:

Now onto Hamas being arrested,, those arrested were threat to Abbas and Fatah and this is the only reason why they were arrested, do not kid yourself into believing it was done for the sake of Israel.

You refer to keyboard warriors, so i presume you served in IDF? have hands on experience in combat zone in middle east? have had dealings or perhaps training with terrorists?

If the answer is NO, i really am puzzled how you can post with such certainty where all you have is they keyboard and the screen to reference to.

No different to scaremongering news on Western Media portraying Thailand being a scary, dangerous place under military control with armed forces everywhere, , while the reality is far from that.

As i said, you are entitled to your opinion, but please do not try to come off as having superior knowledge and do not tell me to look at maps and read some links when i have first hand experience and taste of reality

PS. Just for the record, the ambushed soldiers back in 2006, the captain who was killed was my classmate who i have known from 6th grade.

Edited July 3, 2014 by Pralaad

[Scott]

Posts have been removed as well as replies. Please post in a civil manner and restrict your comments to the content of the post, not the poster. There have been some inflammatory remarks and these will not be tolerated. DO NOT, for instance, tell others not to post in this thread.

The thread is already quite off-topic, but if you continue to post in an informative and civil manner, it can continue.

We will not solve the ME situation in this thread, so please exercise your intellect rather than your emotion.

Your cooperation is appreciated.

[Pakboong]

the Fourth Geneva Convention, Article 49, forbids an occupying power to transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies and that doing so constitutes a war crime. Crime on top of crime. We at least know who the guilty party is on this particular crime. We could get into the chicken/egg argument but there is really no point.

My point is, in twenty pages of posts related to this subject, this crime did not get a mention.