The Hired man

[canuckamuck]

You are definitely entitled to that opinion and I don't entirely disagree with you.

Our temporary workers have the same conditions that they would get at other Thai farms bringing on extra workers. If you think that is blowing kisses in their ears then I think you have not experienced the situation.

Our permanent or paid monthly workers (usually just one lady) are more like family but I guess you see that as the problem.

I am a nice person and I treat people well, the way I would expect to be treated. If that makes me incapable of making this work then perhaps that's what I am stuck with. i will remain open for other opinions however.

[cup-O-coffee]

You are definitely entitled to that opinion and I don't entirely disagree with you.

Our temporary workers have the same conditions that they would get at other Thai farms bringing on extra workers. If you think that is blowing kisses in their ears then I think you have not experienced the situation.

Our permanent or paid monthly workers (usually just one lady) are more like family but I guess you see that as the problem.

I am a nice person and I treat people well, the way I would expect to be treated. If that makes me incapable of making this work then perhaps that's what I am stuck with. i will remain open for other opinions however.

Well, now you're confusing me. You spoke of workers eating and living with you. No mention of them being temporary. You speak of a permanent worker as one lady, yet implied before that there was more than one permanent workers using the plural sense. Now you are describing extra help coming in, whereas you did not mention that clearly before, and extra meaning in addition to permanent. Does that mean in addition to the one lady you have, or is there something else not mentioned here?

OK. I give up! Good luck to you. I mean that sincerely.

[canuckamuck]

The situation changes, we have had two permanent workers 3 different times, they lived in our house, but usually it is only one female that lives with us. Temporary workers come and go all the time. But they eat at our table and their house is just 30 meters away and quite nice. They hang out at our place generally.

The reason you are confused is because we are off topic; so there has been insufficient information for the point you are trying to make. i am looking for simple advice about not offending Thais and you want to paint a picture of me that suits your preconception.

[somo]

Well thank you very much cup-o-coffee. I enjoyed that. I can see how you come to those conclusions based on not knowing more about my life.

But in my defense I wasn't asking for advice from someone who is not doing what I am doing. I am asking for advice from people who are. hence my post in the farming section.

I have my reasons for being here and I really like my life. There are just some issues I would like to improve on That's all.

Diane Fosse eh? That's quite good.

I am glad that you can see that you do not describe enough about your life, in order to warrant a response which is best suited for whatever it is you truly seek. Albeit, the answer is in figuring out their lives, or simply accepting them for who they are. Either way, not much will ever get accomplished and only one or the other will ever be satisfied. Anything else involves you resorting to Pavlovian methods, and to an extent... as odd as it may seem... this seems to be the only available option to create a win win scenario.

To answer your call, however, I would pull the stool out from under their asses.

• Tear down the on-site housing and/or send them back home. Immediate cost savings.
• Hire a truck to pick them up and deliver them daily to the staging area, away from the TV and distractions. They are there to work and then go home.
• Pay them daily for duties satisfactorily performed.
• Have the truck take them back at the end of the day.
• Have a set of assigned, daily tasks and duties you want performed on that day. If its hoeing a row or ten rows for that day, then that is their goal if they want to get paid that day.
• Ask the workers what they think they can accomplish on that day. Agree or don't. Expect more or not. When hands are shaken, that means they know what to do to get paid at the end of the day. No excuses. If they have an excuse, accept it, but don't pay them.
• Stop being their friend. Just be an ATM that doesn't cough up the loot until the proper buttons are pressed (i.e proper duties performed)
• Stop paying them a monthly salary so they can think about it and spend it before they get it. Make them think about survival on a daily cash basis. It's harder to get drunk on 600 THB than 6000 THB.
• Stop feeding and housing them and kissing them in the ears.
• Now they know what they have agreed to do, or they don't get paid.

These are just a few ideas that have worked for me in any given situation. Good luck.

Agree with just about everything coffee has to say here except the bit I highlighted.

After 2 bottles of Lao Khao (200THB) the remaining 5,800 becomes irrelevant to the drinker and probably a friend.

Is it coincidence the daily wage for farm workers is also the price of getting hammered?

[Albertosez]

Certainly agree, never employee family and beware of them thinking they have the absolute right to make decisions on your part etc.

My Thai adult son has had a nightmare with this. His Thai wife is the nicest young lady you could wish to meet but her family are a nightmare.

My son has to get them together and make it very clear that 'this is the family house of the XXX family' also making it plain that they are welcome to stay overnight but no longer and they cannot touch anything in the house. Why?

- Come home and discover they have moved the big TV to another place in the living room and it's balanced precariously on a coupe of old cardboard boxes with electric cords stretched across and ready to trip someone up.

- Sister in law arrives from a bus about 7.50 am. Our maid arrives at 8.10 am. Sister in law (never seen the maid before) instantly starts abusing the maid for being late. Son intervenes and says maids agreed start time is 8.30 am. SIL then changes her abuse to lazy. She's never been to the house before. Son then tells SIL she is welcome but no more than one night and she cannot make any comment about anything to anybody when she's in the house. She now visits maybe once every 2 years, overnight only.

- Other SIL comes to sons house. She disappears upstairs, son's wife goes upstairs and her sister is packing suitcases for sons two young kids. Son's wife asks asks 'why?'. Her sister then announces she's made all the plans to take the children to live with their grandmother. In reality this is exactly what my son and his wife don't want. Idiot SIL now claims it's Thai law. Son tells her to leave and to never ever make any plans for anything about his family.

- Other SIL tells a guy from Bkk that he can park his double decker tour bus outside our house (upcountry). Bus turns up, nobody knows anything about this arrangement son and his wife would never agree. Bus man then says he's paid a fee to SIL. Son tells the bus man he must move the bus to another location immediately and refunds the fee the bus man has paid (150Baht). Son has to strongly tell this SIL to never ever make any plans about anything to do with his family.

My son and his wife are well aware that the outer relatives think they are rude and they don't appreciate the help that the outers try to arrange.

Enjoyed that - it's good to laugh and let it out !

[cup-O-coffee]

The situation changes, we have had two permanent workers 3 different times, they lived in our house, but usually it is only one female that lives with us. Temporary workers come and go all the time. But they eat at our table and their house is just 30 meters away and quite nice. They hang out at our place generally.

The reason you are confused is because we are off topic; so there has been insufficient information for the point you are trying to make. i am looking for simple advice about not offending Thais and you want to paint a picture of me that suits your preconception.

Re-reading the OP and this, I can well understand why "workers" like to stay on as long as you permit, and never seem to get the job done. As you mentioned hiring them by the job and project, I would muse that once the job and project are finished, then you no longer need them.

I wonder... are they lagging in hopes that you add more jobs and projects whilst they are still there, so that they get first shot and hence prolong their stay at this fine residence? After all, living in a house (a nice house 30 meters away from the bosses house), and getting free meals at the bosses own table, and "hanging" out at the bosses house is nothing to turn one's nose up at when one has absolutely no skill that could be differentiated from the next bloke.

There is no off-topic here. What you interpret as off-topic is rather instead not-understanding what you are telling me and how it might appear to opportunistic "bums" that you classify as "workers". I say "bums" simply because they do not seem to meet your standards in general, and you wonder why. I don't.

Perhaps we should define the term "worker"? You tell me what makes them a "worker" and I'll back it up double with what I see as a "bum" with no skills or degree from the University of Hoe-rowing and Tater Digging.

What I am beginning to see is freeloaders taking advantage of a kind hearted person who has blinders on. This kind person can't figure out why people don't have the incentive to follow instructions, or they take three days to do a 4 hour job... In fact these people are getting all the incentive they could ever want (i.e. free lodging in a nice house, free food at the bosses table, nice place to hang out, and money at the end of the month) before moving on to something else... and the job is still not finished.

How can you be certain that you aren't already paying them up front before they even break a sweat? Perhaps you are exceeding their expectations for what they define as fair compensation, and they are milking you for as much as they can get (i.e. taking advantage of your naivety, kindness, inexperience with bums). Nah! Thais don't do that. No way!

Is that a farm you're running or a Millionaires Club? Just curious.

Just had to respond to set the record straight.

Edited July 11, 2014 by cup-O-coffee

[xenophon]

cup coffee's avatar is a bit of a giveaway. Subtle, not

[Jotham79]

I genuinely feel for the OP and understand that working with family can be tricky, but a lot will be determined by the individual. If you are able to roll up your sleeves and work with them, atleast they won't be able to get a s far off track as if you are in your house. I am not a big fan of "all Thais are lazy". My BIL who lives and works on my farm (the last 12 or so years) is a good worker.

Consider this: If you can roll up to someone's house and ask them to come work for a few days it is because they don't have a job. This may not bode well for them being motivated or intelligent. If they will do back breaking work for you in the heat it is not because they like it, but that it is all they can do. Remember that you are paying $10 a day and if they were motivated there are dozens of ways to make more. Try going to your own country and picking up someone to work like that for $10 a day and see how far you get. Understand that if they have ever done the work you want done, then they probably did it a different way. It is very difficult to get them to change, but once they do it the way you want they will continue to do it that way for ever. Have your wife or other close family member handle the workers (if this isn't an option, then you need to reconsider the activity). Know that workers are going into this with a way to avoid losing face if it does sideways. When proposing a new way of doing something, state that you doubt it can really be done they way you want it and are they up to trying it. Showing is better than explaining. I have had good luck getting my BIL and wife to visit other farms where a Thai is doing what I want. Also if you can find a Thai video on Utube. Understand that the way you want it done may be wrong and be willing to listen. I have had no luck with incentives with day labor, but a bottle of Loa Kao on the last day or end of the week is usually expected. Don't haggle on the pay, if they don't work up to par then find someone else. If you get a reputation as a penny pincher you will have trouble getting workers when you need them.

Traditionally the MIL lives nearby and helps with the kids and good luck finding a reliable house worker. They can start school when they are 3 so hang on and maybe consider not having any more children (easier said than done )

To some of the posters complaining I say if this: You are living here because it is the best place in the world for you to live. If it isn't you need to stop complaining and go to that better place. Thai culture does not need to change, I promise you I can find stupid things about any culture in the world.

[canuckamuck]

The situation changes, we have had two permanent workers 3 different times, they lived in our house, but usually it is only one female that lives with us. Temporary workers come and go all the time. But they eat at our table and their house is just 30 meters away and quite nice. They hang out at our place generally.

The reason you are confused is because we are off topic; so there has been insufficient information for the point you are trying to make. i am looking for simple advice about not offending Thais and you want to paint a picture of me that suits your preconception.

Re-reading the OP and this, I can well understand why "workers" like to stay on as long as you permit, and never seem to get the job done. As you mentioned hiring them by the job and project, I would muse that once the job and project are finished, then you no longer need them.

I wonder... are they lagging in hopes that you add more jobs and projects whilst they are still there, so that they get first shot and hence prolong their stay at this fine residence? After all, living in a house (a nice house 30 meters away from the bosses house), and getting free meals at the bosses own table, and "hanging" out at the bosses house is nothing to turn one's nose up at when one has absolutely no skill that could be differentiated from the next bloke.

There is no off-topic here. What you interpret as off-topic is rather instead not-understanding what you are telling me and how it might appear to opportunistic "bums" that you classify as "workers". I say "bums" simply because they do not seem to meet your standards in general, and you wonder why. I don't.

Perhaps we should define the term "worker"? You tell me what makes them a "worker" and I'll back it up double with what I see as a "bum" with no skills or degree from the University of Hoe-rowing and Tater Digging.

What I am beginning to see is freeloaders taking advantage of a kind hearted person who has blinders on. This kind person can't figure out why people don't have the incentive to follow instructions, or they take three days to do a 4 hour job... In fact these people are getting all the incentive they could ever want (i.e. free lodging in a nice house, free food at the bosses table, nice place to hang out, and money at the end of the month) before moving on to something else... and the job is still not finished.

How can you be certain that you aren't already paying them up front before they even break a sweat? Perhaps you are exceeding their expectations for what they define as fair compensation, and they are milking you for as much as they can get (i.e. taking advantage of your naivety, kindness, inexperience with bums). Nah! Thais don't do that. No way!

Is that a farm you're running or a Millionaires Club? Just curious.

Just had to respond to set the record straight.

You have invented quite a fantasy about the reality of my place. I don't have workers dragging out projects so they can stick around. I did give one example of a guy that didn't do a job well and ended up taking a day to one hours work. Well he was offered 100 baht to move that dirt pile and he brought a friend so they had to split that 100 baht, And they never worked for me again.

The work is getting done, but sometimes I want it done different and they are reluctant to change and they can't handle criticisms. So i end up losing people.

You see it is not about people staying, it is about people leaving.

All that stuff you think is going on here is in your head. I just finished a big project, terracing about 5 rai of hillside. I hired extra guys, and they will be going home on Monday after some weeding is done. There is no way to drag it out, it's done. And it was a very hard job that got done on schedule. The hill is all planted and it is the cusp of the monsoon.

I only pay 200 baht a day for the guys that eat here.

Next week we will have new extra workers to plant rice. When its done they will be gone too. And then there will be no extra workers for a while, until a project comes up.

[NeverSure]

The situation changes, we have had two permanent workers 3 different times, they lived in our house, but usually it is only one female that lives with us. Temporary workers come and go all the time. But they eat at our table and their house is just 30 meters away and quite nice. They hang out at our place generally.

The reason you are confused is because we are off topic; so there has been insufficient information for the point you are trying to make. i am looking for simple advice about not offending Thais and you want to paint a picture of me that suits your preconception.

Are people really that different at the core? Yes the culture is different, but are they still people? I'm hearing some red flags regarding human nature.

When I was young I went to work in a banking career with a large national bank. They put me on their management training program and one of the things I had to do was take their night course called "Supervision and Personnel Administration."

One of the things they stressed was that we were never to let an employee think we were his friend. We weren't to have coffee with our direct reports - not even in the employee break room. We had our own room.

"Familiarity breeds contempt" as they say. They taught us to be fair and reasonable, but always to remain a touch aloof. If they thought we were friends they would take advantage.

I remember supervisors who couldn't learn that and they were weak. Their employees walked all over them. I observed the wisdom of what I was taught in that course by watching other "nice guys" fail. Those nice guys wound up doing most of the work when they were supposed to be getting others to do it.

Employees weren't allow to just walk up to my desk and start talking to me - not even my secretary. She could walk up and wait for my attention. She had no idea what was on my mind that she might interrupt.

Employees got security from all of this. They knew everything was working and that I was happy with it all. They knew they had someone strong enough to defend them if needed - as a boss, not as a friend.

If you can take anything from this - good luck. I think you swing between being too soft, and being too familiar, and getting too tough. Be consistent and get aloof.

[canuckamuck]

I understand with what your saying and that type of employee relationship makes a lot of sense at a bank.

On a family farm with grunt labor in Thailand, maybe not so much, For one thing you will never get them to not interrupt you. I think their heads would explode if they tried. If I want to have more than a one minute conversation with my wife. I take her out to the garden. And even then we get interrupted. It is a genetic compulsion.

I know I can treat people indifferently, Like a bank boss. I did have a couple of companies before I came here. It just doesn't seem to fit with our mountain village farm.

For one thing I am not the only boss here. There is mother in law, father in law, and my wife. And they treat people as equals, and indeed they are. It is not uncommon for us to have simultaneous projects requiring the same people. Last week I only had my guys for 2 out of 5 days. There was critical work to be done elsewhere. My wife treats our guys like friends, so what's a guy to do? I am striving to avoid being the out of touch hot tempered farang. I am searching for keys to the workflow.

Some people here act like a colonial lord, and I understand that this is a good fit for this feudal culture. If I was running a large corporation I know that would be the way to go. My little fish farm and tea plantation isn't all that though

And may I point out again: people are not walking all over me. I have a problem with getting workers to do things differently and receiving criticism and correction. The 'being taken advantage of' theory, came from cup-of-coffee and is not what i am dealing with. It can't happen to me. My wife is like a pit bull about such things.

[NeverSure]

Yes. If my boss had come into the area I supervised and given people different instructions than what I had given them it would have undermined me. He wasn't allowed to do that. He had to get me aside privately and then let me change the instructions.

I understand that you can't have that system. But I think Thais are still human, and for yourself if there's going to be inner calm at all, I still think it will come from being somewhat aloof with the hired people and perhaps with the inlaws if necessary. Aloof doesn't mean not nice.

Do you provide the money? If so I would have a time when I'd had enough and send everyone home for a while, saying if it wasn't going to get done right I wasn't paying for it. Calmly. Matter-of-factly. Nice guy is no pushover.

PS Canadians are extremely nice and polite people. I enjoy the way they end many sentences with "eh?" to get agreement. It keeps them from sounding adamant or pushy. Try to not have any need for consensus when you are the boss. "It's my way or the highway." I know Thais are difficult, but I think that somehow you have to remove yourself, your money and the business end of what you're doing from you personal relationships. There's a time to work and a time to enjoy family and I'd put on a different hat at work time.

Edited July 13, 2014 by NeverSure

[canuckamuck]

Yes. If my boss had come into the area I supervised and given people different instructions than what I had given them it would have undermined me. He wasn't allowed to do that. He had to get me aside privately and then let me change the instructions.

I understand that you can't have that system. But I think Thais are still human, and for yourself if there's going to be inner calm at all, I still think it will come from being somewhat aloof with the hired people and perhaps with the inlaws if necessary. Aloof doesn't mean not nice.

Do you provide the money? If so I would have a time when I'd had enough and send everyone home for a while, saying if it wasn't going to get done right I wasn't paying for it. Calmly. Matter-of-factly. Nice guy is no pushover.

PS Canadians are extremely nice and polite people. I enjoy the way they end many sentences with "eh?" to get agreement. It keeps them from sounding adamant or pushy. Try to not have any need for consensus when you are the boss. "It's my way or the highway." I know Thais are difficult, but I think that somehow you have to remove yourself, your money and the business end of what you're doing from you personal relationships. There's a time to work and a time to enjoy family and I'd put on a different hat at work time.

Insightful comments Neversure, and a lot of what you suggest goes on already. I don't get involved with workers unless it is my project. I guess it is true that my Canadian gets in the way occasionally; trying too hard to make sure everyone is simpatico. But Canadians also try very hard to get things done with excellence, and it is very discouraging to have this expectation or hope over here.

I don't provide the money unless it is my project The inlaws make their own deals and buy their own materials. And they don't ask for money unless it is appropriate for me to pay. But of course there is some overlap (like the rice field) where we grow each year's supply of rice. We all eat from the same bowl as the father inlaw puts it. So I don't mind my guys helping over there. And the inlaws often help me with my stuff as well.

[Gecko123]

It is not easy, but in contrary to many belifs here on Thaivisa, it is better to try to become more human to them, than to be more alien. The more connected they become to you, the more respect they will have for you. So the more you point out that you are a white person, a "farang", that is, the alien, the less they are going to connect with you, and the less they are going to care about you.

So even though it is not a quick fix, try to not view yourself as the object, the "farang", but rather think of your self as a human with a name, and a personality, it will certainly help in the long run.

You say you have problems with them not listening to your instructions, it happens to Thai managers as well, but even more so because you are a "whitey", just a "farang", and they all know, you are all the same. Sorry to say, they do not have enough respect for you, to really care.

You should try to learn the language, and befriend them, more like a human, than as a strange alien farang/whitey. That way it will be easier to connect with them, and they will have greater respect for you.

Ayayay:

I need to ask you: Have you ever employed someone in Thailand yourself? If you haven't, I have a feeling your feelings on this issue might change quickly once you had. The humanistic advice you offered probably has validity for some readers who approach working with Thais with a "let me show you how it's done" mentality. But there is more to this problem than the empathetic approach alone can remedy.

I have experienced almost all of the problems the OP voiced, even though I have tried everything I can to avoid these problems. I find these disputes so stressful (especially when they involve neighbors), that I avoid hiring neighbors entirely, and hiring anyone unless it is absolutely necessary. I am fluent in Thai, pay workers at above asking price rates, carefully explain what is expected, talk to workers in a respectful tone of voice, and still in the majority of cases, problems have arisen.

As far as solutions/remedies are concerned: I remember asking the builder of my house (I had nothing to do with management of the workers) how he was able to keep his employees from slacking off when he wasn't around. He told me that they were afraid that if he wasn't satisfied with their work he wouldn't ask them to come back the next day. Whenever I hire someone, I try to be as specific as possible and make it clear that if I am not satisfied I have the right to stop working them. I also have found it necessary to observe the work being done almost continuously, because as soon as I turn my back corners start being cut.